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Rylek posted:I'm curious, how would you design a 40 man encounter that I can't just bring 30 healers and 10 tanks for that ensures that the boss will die even if it takes an hour to kill him. What mechanics do you add that makes bringing a ton of healers a recipe for disaster that doesn't include any kind of a DPS check? It would take significantly longer than an hour to complete. The team is going to have to successfully deal with boss mechanics for longer. This isn't just more opportunities for a team to screw up, the longer a fight drags on, the less focus a player is going to have and they become more likely to make mistakes. I'm not a fan of one-shot mechanics, but I'm pretty positive that this game is going to have them all over the place. Long as hell fights are also just so draining and unfun as hell. WoW added them because its the easy way out. Even going towards a middle ground of a "soft DPS check" where as the fight progresses there is something that accumulates (damage buff, more adds, etc) is far more desirable than "oh its 5 min now the boss does 1000x damage". Even then create a fight that evolves beyond just a HP sponge, have the boss heal, or add waves that heal/shield the boss. If a team can't deal with the adds, they aren't going to be able to kill the boss.
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Sep 12, 2013 20:54
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:Every class should be either tank, heal or CC. And all classes should roughly output the same damage. I would like that, but i dont think thats appropriate for a "That classic feeling." mmo. Sounds like what GW2 wanted/wants to do.
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Sep 12, 2013 21:15
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Yeah, GW2 sounded like that. But instead it was everyone has lovely heals, lovely CC and is a lovely tanking skills at the same time.
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Sep 12, 2013 21:18
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Reverend Dr posted:It would take significantly longer than an hour to complete. The team is going to have to successfully deal with boss mechanics for longer. This isn't just more opportunities for a team to screw up, the longer a fight drags on, the less focus a player is going to have and they become more likely to make mistakes. I'm not a fan of one-shot mechanics, but I'm pretty positive that this game is going to have them all over the place. Long as hell fights are also just so draining and unfun as hell. I agree with most of this and think that 'soft enrage' checks (adds, shrinking platform, etc...) are a cool way to add a DPS check. They're still DPS checks though. If you have players who want to 'play their way' and not care about rotations, gearing properly, etc... then you're going to fail since you'll be overwhelmed by adds, run out of space, die to the gas filling the room, etc... Some of the posters in this thread want to get rid of those DPS checks but still have fun challenging encounters you can't just cheese with tons of healers and tanks. I would like to hear their thoughts on how that could be done. The only obvious way is to have tons of one shot mechanics, but like you mentioned those are rarely fun. I'm all for getting rid of DPS checks as long as it doesn't compromise the challenge of the fight. If bringing 30 healers makes it trivial and bringing 10 makes it fun and challenging how many do you think most guilds are going to bring? History tells us MMO players take the path to the easiest loot despite how boring/unfun/masochistic of a play style it is.
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Sep 12, 2013 21:28
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Rylek posted:Some of the posters in this thread want to get rid of those DPS checks but still have fun challenging encounters you can't just cheese with tons of healers and tanks. I would like to hear their thoughts on how that could be done. The only obvious way is to have tons of one shot mechanics, but like you mentioned those are rarely fun. The real way to do this is to get rid of bosses that are HP sponges. Currently, regardless of whatever mechanics the boss has, once you get past those mechanics there is a giant HP bar that must be whittled down. That is what fights ultimately get reduced down to, bring enough stuff to handle the mechanics and then all the DPS you can squeeze. And that is why "DPS" as a role is so important and harped upon incessantly. Offhand I'd look at trying to do something more like GW1 group compositions, where there is a group of enemies and individually each is not much stronger than a player, but together they become much more of a threat. But the big problem is that making HP sponge bosses is so very easy, while making anything else (and have it be satisfying) is so very difficult. Combine that with the fact that large swathes of people that would play MMOs have gotten to the point that HP sponges are already tired regardless of whatever mechanic is added on. What you are hearing echoed is that people are looking for entirely new combat. The "telegraphs" and more movement based combat is definitely a good thing, though its currently impossible if it that is going to be satisfactory to appease a large enough audience.
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Sep 12, 2013 21:58
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DPS checks are utter poo poo is almost all cases, but I can think one of where it was done right. It was the ice boss in the Uldar raid during WOTLK. Essentially if you could DPS him down before a certain amount of time (I think it was 1 min or a min and a half), you would have beaten him on hardmode and got extra/better loot. If you didn't get him within that time limit, it would be considered normal mode and you'd just get the regular loot. I think there were also buffs that you could get that would increase your DPS immensely as well and if you managed to snag them all, there was a good chance you'd be able to down him before the timer. What I liked about this fight was that there wasn't any 1 shot kill mechanics (that I can remember) and that it still gave incentive for guilds to want to improve their play. The buffs/power ups meant that good play resulted in the boss not being an HP sponge. I think that mmos should emphasize more on incentive, rather than punishment in their games. Bear runs in ZA were a good example of giving guilds incentive to really get better at an instance as well.
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Sep 12, 2013 22:17
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I just miss CC being an integral part of the grouping experience. Enchanters in EQ were so much fun to play and play with, and their CC effectiveness was much more skill based than gear based compared to DPS and tanks. It's hard to make DPS effectiveness much more than a function of gear and class.Lucy Heartfilia posted:DPS is a dumb role. Every class should be either tank, heal or CC. And all classes should roughly output the same damage.
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Sep 12, 2013 22:32
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xZAOx posted:And "serious progression / competition" in PVE is still just something that I find incomprehensible. I mean, I "get it" I guess, I just find it pointless. My Shiny Staff Of Shining is no less awesome because other people have it. Play the game for yourself and your guild, not for whatever everyone else is doing. The whole point of the modern MMO is quest to be special. Even casual raiders would ideally like to complete the raid and get the highest tier of items ASAP. Even if you aren't a raider, chances are 80% of your guild are trying to accomplish something "substantial" whether it is a title, or walking around town in their top tier raid gear, or tolerating all the minutiae to collect rare pets and mounts. Your Shiny Staff of Shining is not that awesome if so many people have it that it's basically considered standard gear. Playing the game, living life or doing whatever else for yourself sounds nice, but it runs counter to human nature. Few people are going to spend hundreds of hours in the arena/raid/lol/dota or whatever multiplayer game they fancy if they didn't have a rare Shiny Staff of Shining to show everyone else how special and awesome they are.
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Sep 12, 2013 22:42
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Flarestar posted:DPS replaced crowd control like ten years ago due to games making CC roles pointless and introducing DPS checks that were guaranteed failure if the check wasn't passed. Which sucks, since the reliance on DPS output as a fight tuning metric has caused shitloads of other problems, but such is life. That's why the word "traditional" is up there.
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Sep 12, 2013 22:46
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Wait, this isn't the GW2 thread...?
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Sep 12, 2013 23:15
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TyrantWD posted:Few people are going to spend hundreds of hours in the arena/raid/lol/dota or whatever multiplayer game they fancy if they didn't have a rare Shiny Staff of Shining to show everyone else how special and awesome they are. So everyone that played Counter-Striker, Tribes, Star Craft for hundreds of hours and didn't do the competitive scene were brain damaged because they didn't get a shiny Staff of Shining to parade around with? I think your argument is not a very good one.
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Sep 13, 2013 00:03
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BadLlama posted:So everyone that played Counter-Striker, Tribes, Star Craft for hundreds of hours and didn't do the competitive scene were brain damaged because they didn't get a shiny Staff of Shining to parade around with? I think your argument is not a very good one. Well, those are designed to be fun games that stand on their own. Traditional MMOs are designed to be skinner boxes with gameplay stretched out to keep you paying 15 a month as long as possible. Having that I'm Better Because I'm Shiner(from investing more time) is good for
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Sep 13, 2013 00:14
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BadLlama posted:So everyone that played Counter-Striker, Tribes, Star Craft for hundreds of hours and didn't do the competitive scene were brain damaged because they didn't get a shiny Staff of Shining to parade around with? I think your argument is not a very good one. Those examples don't really count in this discussion because they are all round-based PvP games, not PvE dungeons/raids. We're still missing any real arguments as to why DPS shouldn't matter in a group setting where we already have tanks and healers.
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Sep 13, 2013 00:30
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BadLlama posted:So everyone that played Counter-Striker, Tribes, Star Craft for hundreds of hours and didn't do the competitive scene were brain damaged because they didn't get a shiny Staff of Shining to parade around with? I think your argument is not a very good one. As someone who did spend 1000s of hours playing Counterstrike and Starcraft, there was nothing "persistent" from game to game. Each game essentially existed in a vacuum, and when it was done that was it. You could be the best player in the country, and no one would know. In an MMO or even a Dota/LoL game where your accomplishments in the game is basically on display to everyone you run across, getting something rare and shiny for the world to see matters to most people.
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Sep 13, 2013 00:59
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Uhrm posted:Those examples don't really count in this discussion because they are all round-based PvP games, not PvE dungeons/raids. We're still missing any real arguments as to why DPS shouldn't matter in a group setting where we already have tanks and healers. As we discussed off-forums, the biggest detail is the pvp headache it would create. In a game like Wildstar, appealing to both audiences is a big part of the focus. No dps class creates a vacuum, and how do tanks, healers and "crowd control" work in such a game? I'd argue this is where The Old Republic did it really well, giving the three roles meaningful interaction and counters. If Wildstar will basically be "Wow in space" its going to look to Wow to avoid mistakes done years ago, one being that without a hard cap on "Beat the boss before X:XX or its going to insta-gib you." you end up with silly raid setups. Yes its terribly boring sometimes but it can be made exciting. Ultraxion had a catchy enrage, The Lurker in the Dark (Or whatever hes called from TSW)'s 10 minute "We're going to airstrike the location, deal with the baddie or die when we do." is a neat mechanic. Heck, Machine Tyrant (TSW) upping his dot application to unmanageable, but not unwinnable, was a good way of creating a hard enrage. Gosh, even Algalons Ascend to the Heavens was fitting, "Too slow", and the whole raid explodes, and thats the most boring example i've given so far. Hard enrages have their place. Beating Brutallus at 6:10 partly because one of the DPS warrior's was a parry-lucky rear end in a top hat was pretty nail bitingly awesome.  So this is me, in a long rear end way of saying it, throwing my point in that DPS roles in such a game as Wildstar should matter, have their own role, be significant and have their own challenges to overcome in the trinity. Still totally fine with axing the role entirely and rethinking the standpoint on MMORPG's as a whole. 
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Sep 13, 2013 02:25
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malhavok posted:That's why the word "traditional" is up there. The holy trinity has consisted of tank/healer/dps far longer than it did tank/healer/cc. He's pretty much correct in referring to the former as traditional at this point, as much as that sucks. Rylek posted:I'm curious, how would you design a 40 man encounter that I can't just bring 30 healers and 10 tanks for that ensures that the boss will die even if it takes an hour to kill him. What mechanics do you add that makes bringing a ton of healers a recipe for disaster that doesn't include any kind of a DPS check? First: I don't know of any guild that actually did what you're claiming people did. Healers have always been far, far harder to find than DPS in basically every game from Everquest on. DPS checks were not added to combat some imaginary problem of people gimping content by bringing absurd amounts of healers, because that wasn't happening on anything more than an isolated basis at most. DPS checks were added largely because putting a sense of urgency on the fight with instadeath/hard enrage mechanics was the best thing Blizzard could come up with. Everyone else followed suit, because that's what the industry as a whole has been doing for the last decade. Second: I didn't say anything about DPS checks period being a bad mechanic. Just hard checks, where if you don't pass the check, you are done, period, end of story. Every encounter in which something must die inherently has SOME kind of dps check associated, even if it's just mana pool or killing before people fall asleep. Add waves that have to be dealt with, absorption shields that have to be taken down to stop a powerful attack, that kind of crap is fine. Where problems come in is when you introduce a mechanic that says "Your raid must do x amount of damage in x amount of time after engage, or you all die." What it really comes down to is that most encounter design is incredibly unimaginative, because MMORPGs aren't designed with NPC AI complex enough for anything else. Hard DPS checks are a symptom of that, not a solution to a problem. They're a skin deep mask to provide "challenge" to encounters that are otherwise not at all challenging given even a moderate level of competence and awareness on the part of the players.
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Sep 13, 2013 02:42
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I'm going to address as much of this post as I can, bold text below. I am sure some of this may change. Also, since I havent played in a while, my memory may not be perfect. Also, up front I will inform everyone that I only got to level 20 or so before I quit playing due to boredom. This of course means I was still very much in the early game, perhaps it improves later. I agree that what I have to say may therefore not represent the potential for a good end-game experience.Xavier434 posted:In a game that is emphasizing action combat and telegraphed attacks, I certainly hope that the WoW style holy trinity is not too heavily emphasized. The entire point of a combat system like that is to provide a higher level of strategy and skill based combat with a lower emphasis on RNG. I am sure some posters who read this may think it overly pessimistic/critical, and I admit it may be. My enthusiasm for the game (which was pretty high before actually playing) nosedived almost as soon as I entered the Dominion starting zone (which is virtually indistinguishable from the Barrens) and was greeted with a variety of kill ten rats quests. Kill rats, turn in quest, run to the next hub, repeat. I have yet to read any quest text. Leveling "feels" pretty grindy, even though it is actually relatively fast, mostly because most mobs have what I think is twice the necessary amount of HP. Just keep circle strafing (if playing a melee class), or keep kiting (if you are playing ranged), while using your 1-2 button macro, and the mob will die. I fully acknowledge that there may be potential for an interesting raiding game at higher levels, assuming that the devs designing raid encounters have been putting more effort/originality into it than has been put into the leveling game. On the plus side, the character animations/art were very well done, assuming you like the stylized look, which I do. Overall, I was disappointed with my (admittedly limited) experiences in Wildstar. I think there is still very much hope for the game, especially with some of the more interesting features such as housing and the promised Warplots. Maybe it will have interesting raiding. I sincerely hope that the devs use some time during the current break to improve the early game greatly, so that more players stick around for what could possibly be some interesting end-game content. However, after a few hours of the the early game experience, I was too bored and generally apathetic to continue. The game, to me (your experiences may vary) had the effect of filling me with an overwhelming sensation of "I have already played this game a hundred times before." There is a new name on the launcher screen and some different looking characters/monsters, but it's still the same game most of us have already been playing for the better part of a decade, if not longer. tl,dr: GW2 and WoW had a baby in space Nef Arious fucked around with this message at 07:26 on Sep 13, 2013 |
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Sep 13, 2013 07:03
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Nef Arious posted:tl,dr: GW2 and WoW had a baby in space As long as it's the best of both worlds, I can live with this 
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Sep 13, 2013 08:44
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Uhrm posted:As long as it's the best of both worlds, I can live with this Yeah, I think if that is what you are looking for, and they improve the early game experience, you will have fun with it - still lots of potential here I think, but it definitely needs some work in my opinion. Hopefully they make some good progress during the current "break."
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Sep 13, 2013 08:51
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Uhrm posted:I don't see how a system that force dps to carry their own weight is a bad idea. Having to endure a 30 minutes + bossfight that should be over in 5 because 50% of the raid (or more) decide to play badly belongs to vanilla WoW, not a modern MMO. Vanilla WoW pretty much invented DPS checks so I don't really get this point.
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Sep 13, 2013 09:06
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Equilibrium posted:Vanilla WoW pretty much invented DPS checks so I don't really get this point. I guess you never had any hour long Chromaggus or black drake kills/wipes
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Sep 13, 2013 09:23
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No, but those bosses were really easy. Even before them Vael and Rag were basically pseudo-DPS checks, and virtually every other boss in AQ40/Naxx had some kind of hard enrage. MC and BWL were designed to let you carry the other 20 people in your raid assuming you had at least 20 competent people - you didn't trip into full epics the moment you hit 60 like you do now, so it's understandable why they were so lax.
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Sep 13, 2013 10:31
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Flarestar posted:First: I don't know of any guild that actually did what you're claiming people did. Healers have always been far, far harder to find than DPS in basically every game from Everquest on. DPS checks were not added to combat some imaginary problem of people gimping content by bringing absurd amounts of healers, because that wasn't happening on anything more than an isolated basis at most. DPS checks were added largely because putting a sense of urgency on the fight with instadeath/hard enrage mechanics was the best thing Blizzard could come up with. Everyone else followed suit, because that's what the industry as a whole has been doing for the last decade. The poopsocking raiding guilds have always stacked classes and roles that made the fight doable. Considering the crowd wildstar is aiming for, it's not a bad assumption to make that removing enrages will gut everything they're trying to do. I think you're severely underestimating the imoprtance of a sense of urgency. There's a reason heigan the unclean is a complete joke of a fight. I soloed him as a prot paladin for at least 30% of his health on more than one occassion while the was relevant content. His explosions only matter if he manages to kill everyone who can heal themselves in any capacity, and it's mainly because he has a complete loving joke of an enrage timer, if he even has one. Also, consider what it means to have CC be the thing groups bring you along for. CC is an incredibly binary mechanic; either the thing is controlled or it isn't. Gear is irrelevant to this, outside of maybe hit, I guess, which makes it incredibly hard to see an actual increase in your character's numbers, which is what a MASSIVE portion of the playerbase of an MMO like what Wildstar wants. Also consider that tanking is, in and of itself, the ultimate form of crowd control. If it's on the tank, it is both controlled and killable. If your role is cc, and there are no dps checks so you can bring extra healers, why wouldn't you just forgo the cc roles in the first place? Tanking is easier, more effective, and if everyone is doing the same damage then a CC class brings nothing to the table that an extra healer or another tank would bring, with more flexibility, survivability, and utility. Unless you turn to one-hit kill mechanics, which you've already seemed to agree are bad. I realize not all of that was in your post, but while I was ranting anyway, I figured I'd just get it all out of the way.
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Sep 13, 2013 10:50
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Rylek posted:I'm curious, how would you design a 40 man encounter that I can't just bring 30 healers and 10 tanks for that ensures that the boss will die even if it takes an hour to kill him. What mechanics do you add that makes bringing a ton of healers a recipe for disaster that doesn't include any kind of a DPS check? Lower healing output to the point where healers are needed to mitigate unavoidable damage but can't outheal several telegraphs worth of damage and increase their damage output as a tradeoff. You've just created a natural enrage timer, made it even more important to move out of the fire instead of mashing a rotation macro and blaming the healers, and made pvp not suck in a single swoop.
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Sep 13, 2013 10:59
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Arzachel posted:Lower healing output to the point where healers are needed to mitigate unavoidable damage but can't outheal several telegraphs worth of damage and increase their damage output as a tradeoff. You've just created a natural enrage timer, made it even more important to move out of the fire instead of mashing a rotation macro and blaming the healers, and made pvp not suck in a single swoop. You realize that this can be countered by just bringing enough healers to cover the gap created by lowering the ammount a single healer can bring, right?
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Sep 13, 2013 11:38
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Uhrm posted:You realize that this can be countered by just bringing enough healers to cover the gap created by lowering the ammount a single healer can bring, right? More healers mean longer fights mean more chances to gently caress up mean more attrition. It won't make fights impossible with 10 tanks and 30 healers, but it would take away the safety of such setups, because if you can dodge pretty much everything for 30 minutes, why not take more dps and be done in 10?
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Sep 13, 2013 12:52
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Thank you for taking the time to write all of this. I found it very insightful. Arzachel posted:More healers mean longer fights mean more chances to gently caress up mean more attrition. It won't make fights impossible with 10 tanks and 30 healers, but it would take away the safety of such setups, because if you can dodge pretty much everything for 30 minutes, why not take more dps and be done in 10? Additionally, you can also mitigate this situation through the use of longer CDs for healing abilities. Force the players to think about when the best time is to activate their heal skill instead of just when health bars are something below 90%.
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Sep 13, 2013 13:24
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Arzachel posted:Lower healing output to the point where healers are needed to mitigate unavoidable damage but can't outheal several telegraphs worth of damage and increase their damage output as a tradeoff. You've just created a natural enrage timer, made it even more important to move out of the fire instead of mashing a rotation macro and blaming the healers, and made pvp not suck in a single swoop. Lowering healing output has never worked out well. Healer's have one of the best MMO "unions" since they're such an under played class. It's a thankless and frankly frustrating role, and any time a MMO has reduced healing output a mini-strike broke out that basically crippled dungeon runs. Look at WoW and Rift. Healer's basically don't have to worry about mana regen at all due to years of bitching and moaning.
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Sep 13, 2013 14:10
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Korlac posted:Lowering healing output has never worked out well. Healer's have one of the best MMO "unions" since they're such an under played class. It's a thankless and frankly frustrating role, and any time a MMO has reduced healing output a mini-strike broke out that basically crippled dungeon runs. Look at WoW and Rift. Healer's basically don't have to worry about mana regen at all due to years of bitching and moaning. Eliminate healing as a role entirely. Add healing to the list of support abilities performed by those running with support based builds or classes or just give everyone a heal. That fixes the whole "feeling useless" problem as well as the issue of not enough people playing the healer class because they want to do more than heal or prefer not to do any healing at all at any moment. Xavier434 fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Sep 13, 2013 |
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Sep 13, 2013 14:48
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Xavier434 posted:Eliminate healing as a role entirely. Add healing to the list of support abilities performed by those running with support based builds or classes or just give everyone a heal. That fixes the whole "feeling useless" problem as well as the issue of not enough people playing the healer class because they want to do more than heal or prefer not to do any healing at all at any moment. But then you end up with GW2 =/
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Sep 13, 2013 15:11
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xZAOx posted:But then you end up with GW2 =/ Not necessarily. A huge part of what defines healing in GW2 is the game's choice to eliminate mana as a resource and only utilize a CD. You could keep mana in Wildstar or use some other creative form of resource management in combination with a limited number of healing abilities and lengthier CDs than what most MMOs use.
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Sep 13, 2013 15:15
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Xavier434 posted:Eliminate healing as a role entirely. Add healing to the list of support abilities performed by those running with support based builds or classes or just give everyone a heal. That fixes the whole "feeling useless" problem as well as the issue of not enough people playing the healer class because they want to do more than heal or prefer not to do any healing at all at any moment. What I'd rather see is more design where there's still primary healing classes, but their healing abilities are integrated with their offensive capabilities. Vanguard's blood mage and disciple classes are excellent examples of this, ditto with the chloromancer soul in Rift. The concept of standalone character design (self-sufficiency) is that it promotes people *playing* as standalone characters. While that's fine for a SPRG, for an MMORPG you end up with lovely or nonexistent community, and gameplay design eventually ends up reflecting that. It's a perfectly vicious little cycle.
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Sep 13, 2013 15:35
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I liked the Chloro in Rift and I would enjoy seeing an honest effort to take that hybrid concept and truly make it something that takes the concept to the next level (whatever that is). I don't agree that removing healing as a role and distributing it across all classes equates to characters being self sufficient though. There are lots of ways and reasons for different classes to depend on each other. Healing is one of many that just so happens to have been heavily emphasized over the years even though it never needed to be.
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Sep 13, 2013 15:50
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Xavier434 posted:There are lots of ways and reasons for different classes to depend on each other. If this is the case (it's not) then you need to provide specific implementable examples that make it necessary for classes to depend on each other in ways that aren't taking hits (tank) or replenishing life (healer). The only thing you're depending on in a fight of all dps is that your teammates are smart enough to stand out the fire enough, have the proper rotation, and enough gear to kill the big bad boss butt. The only alternative to holy trinity that actually works in an MMO is making everyone a "healer" with things like the Left 4 Dead system of everyone being able to revive teammates that get KO'd. If you point to the likes of mages and paladins decursing/cleansing in WoW I'm going to tell you that is literally the same thing as healing, because it is. Hybrids are an extremely binary class that's either near useless or completely overpowered. I will instantly drop an MMO that has the latter. I am completely justified in that decision because the developers made a conscious decision to let certain classes be the jack of more than one trade while other classes don't get that opportunity. It's bad game design. A good example would be Druids during The Burning Crusade and Wrath of The Lich King. If a class fills a niche it's completely counter to the entire point of teamwork in an MMO to let players who pick a certain character class to fill more than one niche. The way to improve the holy trinity is to make healing and tanking action-based roles. Healing requires you to aim and hit other players with projectile heals, place effective AoE healing areas, and put up AoE shields that bloc or reduce the damage of enemy projectiles. Tanking needs to be heavily based on your skill to dodge, block, and avoid attacks as well as managing groups of enemies. The only way I see the holy trinity being effectively abolished is to give every class one or two unique defensive abilities that can only help someone else, not themselves. Bosses would have to be specifically designed around forcing players to use these defensive abilities to survive the fight. puberty worked me over fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Sep 13, 2013 |
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Sep 13, 2013 18:39
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When I said "depend", I did not necessarily mean "cannot play this part of the game without". I don't think it is a problem if classes in an MMO lack such a high level of dependency on each other. In fact, I think it is better without it because it encourages bringing the player and not the class more. One can depend on another player/class to bring something to a fight that is not necessary but noticeably helps. It encourages teamwork and still makes each class feel valuable in their own way if done right. I think that is good enough.
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Sep 13, 2013 19:31
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Xavier434 posted:Eliminate healing as a role entirely. Add healing to the list of support abilities performed by those running with support based builds or classes or just give everyone a heal. That fixes the whole "feeling useless" problem as well as the issue of not enough people playing the healer class because they want to do more than heal or prefer not to do any healing at all at any moment. I don't think anyone ever feels "useless" as a healer. I used the word "thankless" instead. People tend to not notice a good healer, but a bad healer gets all the flack. While I'm not denying that there are plenty of bad healers out there, but this also tends to be a cover for lovely DPS or Tanks. No, we've already gone down this road with GW2 who removed the holy trinity, and ultimately they suffered for this choice. I truly believe that if GW2 had more classic group role mechanics they'd be doing even better than they are right now.
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Sep 13, 2013 23:10
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Korlac posted:I don't think anyone ever feels "useless" as a healer. I used the word "thankless" instead. People tend to not notice a good healer, but a bad healer gets all the flack. While I'm not denying that there are plenty of bad healers out there, but this also tends to be a cover for lovely DPS or Tanks. It's not so much as the lack of trinity is what makes group content in GW2 lackluster, it's just that Anet is bad at producing engaging content period. If we replaced their current group make up with the trinity now, you'd still have lovely dungeons with tank and spank HP sponge bosses.
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Sep 14, 2013 00:04
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Lyer posted:It's not so much as the lack of trinity is what makes group content in GW2 lackluster, it's just that Anet is bad at producing engaging content period. If we replaced their current group make up with the trinity now, you'd still have lovely dungeons with tank and spank HP sponge bosses. This is a fair statement. How is their game still so popular if it has such lovely mechanics. I admittedly stopped playing because 1: Getting top rated gear was crazy easy and I had the best stuff available within a few hours of reaching top level and 2: Their dungeons were a joke and just had everyone running around like chickens with their heads cut off till the boss died.
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Sep 14, 2013 05:44
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Korlac posted:This is a fair statement. How is their game still so popular if it has such lovely mechanics. I admittedly stopped playing because 1: Getting top rated gear was crazy easy and I had the best stuff available within a few hours of reaching top level and 2: Their dungeons were a joke and just had everyone running around like chickens with their heads cut off till the boss died. Because it's easy. Incredibly, hilariously easy. And quite a few people are very attracted to instant gratification.
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Sep 14, 2013 06:37
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Flarestar posted:Because it's easy. Incredibly, hilariously easy. And quite a few people are very attracted to instant gratification. Sure, but Wildstar is going for pretty mych the exact oposite if we are to believe the devs (which I do). And I kinda expect the majority of the people who are interested in the game half a year from its release to prefer challenging content and the holy trinity over whatever it is GW2 gave us.
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Sep 14, 2013 10:10
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