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Doltos posted:The reason I guard bigger guys is because I am the smallest person at the courts. So there is never a guy who similar in size with you? At 5'10" and 150 lbs, you're just some average male. You're pretty new to playing pickup games so I don't think you fully "get" it. The way you come off, it sounds like you're playing like a jerk to make up the difference in skill and size.
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Jun 11, 2012 17:29
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Ya I think I am coming off wrong. I was definitely dirty and caused a bunch of fights when I was younger. There is a certain mentality that you have to make up for being small to stick on teams. In pick up I am still very new to the game. I'm not as good as everyone else and I can tell I'm out of shape when I can't jump by the third game. I'm learning what's good D and what's cheap, and trust me it's not obvious when you're learning from watching others at the court. When I do something that pisses someone off I ask why, and then I try to quit it. I play the game to have fun and get good exercise. The courts are competitive and I have to figure out my place on the courts. I rarely do get matched up against someone my size, even the HS kids that play are all monsters now. Considering I'm not a very good scorer yet, I have to make my game on defense and doing stuff that no one else does, like chasing loose balls or setting up plays with passing. Guys know that and they'll take steps to make sure I can't do what I have to do. There's no need to lower your shoulder into me over and over if you have sixty pounds on me, just go up over the top and lay it in. If there's a fast break, pass to the guy fast breaking with you instead of trying to put me on my rear end. It's hard being on the other end of the spectrum. I know everyone is supposed to have fun out there but tell me what's fun about getting physically bodied by everyone just because they can? I'll never get picked for teams that way and no one will trust me on D. It sucks but it's something I have to do against my competition, I'm just making it clear that I never actively try to hurt anyone.
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Jun 11, 2012 17:37
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Doltos posted:I'm a pure hustle guy that plays hard on defense. I always pass first and actively encourage my teammates. People on my courts like me, but if someone starts throwing weight around like it's the NBA finals, I'm going to pull dirty stuff. Its easy for big guys to complain about but it evens the field. You're going to get your rear end beat on the court on day. E: You can also do something about being a scrawny gently caress. Eat and lift weights, that'll help. Who cares if someone has 70 lbs on you if you're stronger than them.
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Jun 11, 2012 17:44
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Regnevelc posted:You're going to get your rear end beat on the court on day. Yep and I know that. I'm working out more and I'm toning back the dirty wherever I can. I'm not denying that what I do pisses people off and I am actively trying to figure out what parts of my game do that. My playing weight at this height was 175ish, which still makes a lot of these guys much, much bigger than me. It's a mentality that I've had for a long time to make up the skill gap, I know it's not right, trust me, I'm not giving excuses. I'm just justifying why I do it, because it's definitely easier to say don't play cheap when you're the 6'4 guy up against the 5'9 one.
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Jun 11, 2012 17:54
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Regnevelc posted:I've never seen the first one happen. As for the second go half unless everyone wants full. The first one happens around here, Oakland CA. The second gets tricky when say 8 people want to go full- probably wouldn't go over too well if you were one of the holdouts. I just despise playing 21 when there are 4 or more people.
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Jun 11, 2012 19:13
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R.D. Mangles posted:Cherry picking lob passes are not loving basketball and if I could I would just walk off the court and do something else once that starts happening because it's a complete waste of my time. My thoughts exactly.
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Jun 11, 2012 19:19
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I understand where Doltos is coming from - if you didn't grow up playing basketball, it's pretty much impossible to know what's cool and what isn't in pickup without trying it out. I'm 5'9 and 170-175, and have been playing pickup like 10 times a year for 4 years, and I'm still constantly unsure of how to play defense. My sports background is wrestling, football, and rugby, so I know that I'm way more physical than anyone else, and play the opposite way. But when I play with my friends I get yelled at for not being physical enough  Then I get yelled at if I do something like run straight through someone (who was taller/heavier but isn't used to contact) who tried to screen me.I'm fine just staying up by someone if he's a jumpshooter, but since 99% of dudes, even those taller than me, will simply drive to the basket, I have no idea what I'm allowed to do. One game I got annoyed with a friend (who likes to complain about fouls a lot) and started hand checking him before finding out I couldn't do that, but he also yells at me if I just shuffle in front of him and run him off his path. What I don't get is how to stop dudes who just dribble hard towards the rim - usually I just stand flat footed and wait for them to run into me, but they just go up and score after contact, and I don't even jump or swipe at the ball because I don't want to hit them (and I'm almost always shorter and can't jump, so I'm not going to block their shot). It's all a giant mystery because there's no real rules and it's super frustrating. As far as I can tell, all I can do at this point is try to steal the ball when someone dribbles near me then just let them go around, because staying in front of them does absolutely nothing once they decide to go into & over me. In a lot of ways it's reminiscent of ultimate frisbee - some dudes will cry at the slightest touch, some dudes will be fine with a ton of contact, and there's no way to know who's going to do what. And the rules are set by basically who has the most friends there.
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Jun 11, 2012 19:26
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you can hit the person going up if you get post position and keep your arms vertical (meaning that they initiate the contact)
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Jun 11, 2012 19:33
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Raptor Jesus posted:you can hit the person going up if you get post position and keep your arms vertical (meaning that they initiate the contact) That's what I do but literally people will do charging fouls non stop and if you call one of them, you're the rear end in a top hat. I think in the 6 months I've been playing at the courts, every foul I've ever called has been on myself. People just will do stuff that I know is a foul in the NBA but even in this thread, apparently calling charges makes you a dick. Hell, I saw that part of the Kyrie Irving dressed up as an old man thing where he pressed up on a guy and punched the ball out. I do the same exact move and the kid tries to throw an elbow at me on the next possession. It's really confusing knowing what will or what won't set someone off. What seems like a legitimate tactic to me can be the biggest no-no on the court.
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Jun 11, 2012 19:41
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That's how it goes. Just play.
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Jun 11, 2012 20:02
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mastershakeman posted:I'm fine just staying up by someone if he's a jumpshooter, but since 99% of dudes, even those taller than me, will simply drive to the basket, I have no idea what I'm allowed to do. If you're unable to stop guys from driving by moving your feet and keeping them in front of you, then you're going to have to rely on team defense. Your teammates should help out on the drive while you cover someone who's left uncovered due to your teammates rotating to help. At the very least you should "follow" your man and get after the potential rebound. Work on your lateral quickness to keep guys in front of you. Watch players to spot tendencies- there aren't many players who can go left or right with equal skill. "Steer" your man one way or another into defensive help. Talk with your teammates about helping out and how to handle switches. Also, if you're playing a guy who can beat you off the dribble, you might try to deny him the ball. Guard him everywhere and see if you can take him out of his game a bit. If he's going to go all Reggie Miller on you and run incessantly to get open, or if his team knows how to set screens, then again you're going to need team defense. Half court basketball is the greatest game on earth.
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Jun 11, 2012 20:05
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But when they just push into you with a shoulder , then what? Can I push back so long as I don't use my arms? I'm usually stronger than the people I play with but I don't understand when I'm allowed to push vs not. Hell, this applies to post work too, where some guya will push as hard as they can to get a few feet from the basket while waiting on a pass, then get mad if I try to slow, stop, or reverse their progress. I've asked my friends these questions a million times but they can never distill their instinctive defense into words. Plus, since they're all a lot taller, they go for blocks much more which I can't do. And the few small guys seem to be able to get away with lots of pushing because of their size. Stronger short guys like me fit into a strange area where I'm either too rough or not rough enough and there's no way to learn without constant fouling or weak defense. I'm just super frustrated with my last few games, is all, to where I feel like I should start knocking people completely off their path when they drive right into me. mastershakeman fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Jun 11, 2012 |
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Jun 11, 2012 20:13
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Doltos posted:It's really confusing knowing what will or what won't set someone off. What seems like a legitimate tactic to me can be the biggest no-no on the court. I bet anyone with experience could show you what's reasonable and what's not in about 30 minutes on the court. If you don't know who to ask, you might consider Craigslist or TaskRabbit. Post an ad and see how it goes. I'd be surprised if you can't find someone qualified to offer guidance.
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Jun 11, 2012 20:13
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As a defender, you have equal right to the spot where you're at as the person on offense. It's not so much pushing back as not giving up any ground. If you're got good lower body strength, set your feet with a shoulder width stance, keep your arms/body vertical and deny them space to make a shot. If they make it over you, say nice shot and go on and play the next possession. If you jump, you're pretty much conceding the foul unless you're good enough to get all ball because when you jump you cede the right to the ground underneath you. Maybe the guys you play with are a lot more sensitive when it comes to contact, I play with a bunch of guys who used to be in prison so as long as you aren't outright trying to punch someone or going for their head, they don't really mind contact (as long as you aren't a dick and call touch fouls on the other end), but playing good man defense is more about footwork than anything else.
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Jun 11, 2012 20:24
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mastershakeman posted:But when they just push into you with a shoulder , then what? Can I push back so long as I don't use my arms? I'm usually stronger than the people I play with but I don't understand when I'm allowed to push vs not. Hell, this applies to post work too, where some guya will push as hard as they can to get a few feet from the basket while waiting on a pass, then get mad if I try to slow, stop, or reverse their progress. You're right, it's a hard thing to gauge, and can vary from game to game and player to player. Try to think not in terms of an absolute scale- like it's always OK to push THIS hard- but a dynamic process. If someone is pushing into you with a shoulder, I believe you have the right to stand your ground and provide equal resistance. If someone is pushing as hard as they can to get open, and this is a common thing among several if not all the players and no one is calling fouls for it, then drat you're in a tough game. I've played in games like that where setting screens means you WILL get elbowed hard- and all I can say is good luck and maybe try to find another game. Same applies to guys pushing for position in the post. Push back as hard as they're pushing. If you're usually stronger than the people you play with and know how to use leverage, you should be able to keep them in check.
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Jun 11, 2012 20:28
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Thanks guys, that's good to hear. I'll definitely work on keeping the arms up more, since I haven't been doing that very much.
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Jun 11, 2012 20:35
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mastershakeman posted:But when they just push into you with a shoulder , then what? Can I push back so long as I don't use my arms? I'm usually stronger than the people I play with but I don't understand when I'm allowed to push vs not. Hell, this applies to post work too, where some guya will push as hard as they can to get a few feet from the basket while waiting on a pass, then get mad if I try to slow, stop, or reverse their progress. If you're getting pushed around in the post, you can always pull the chair out, or front them...give them something different when it's not just pushing. If you're getting barreled into, I'd at least jaw with them. We don't call offensive fouls where I play, but I'll call folks out for playing reckless like that. And yes, don't leave your feet, arms up, and try to funnel guys into bad shots or the help. I've also gone to guys who called a lot of fouls on me after a game, and asked them what I've been doing that has them calling me so much. Especially if you play with guys a lot, you can learn that some folks give more leeway than other and you learn to play certain folks differently.
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Jun 11, 2012 20:44
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CrazyLikeAMadDog posted:And yes, don't leave your feet, arms up, and try to funnel guys into bad shots or the help. While I agree that it's probably best not to leave your feet at this stage, at some point you have to learn how to go up vertically and contest shots. When they figure out you're not jumping they'll shoot right over you.
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Jun 12, 2012 01:27
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mastershakeman posted:Thanks guys, that's good to hear. I'll definitely work on keeping the arms up more, since I haven't been doing that very much. Same, I just realized I'm pretty much all upper body defense regardless of the player since that's how I deal with guys bigger than me and how I bully smaller matchups. I gotta start working on my footwork more.
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Jun 12, 2012 03:30
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Oh sure. I was mainly going on mastershakeman's comment that he was shorter. I'm (usually) the shortest dude on my courts. If it's a straight up jumpshooter, it's fine to go and contest. When there's guys driving in and using their bodies, I've found it a lot better to stay straight and funnel. If I jump on someone who drives a lot, I'm too short to really get a good opportunity on the ball, so I either foul or can't do much on the play.
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Jun 12, 2012 03:33
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footwork is the most important thing in basketball on offense and defense, if you work on that you will see a 10 fold improvement in your game and a marked decrease in your fouls.
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Jun 12, 2012 04:44
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Doltos posted:I'm a pure hustle guy that plays hard on defense. I always pass first and actively encourage my teammates. People on my courts like me, but if someone starts throwing weight around like it's the NBA finals, I'm going to pull dirty stuff. Its easy for big guys to complain about but it evens the field. I don't get this. I'm 5'9 135 pounds and I can defend most people even dudes bigger than me in the post, because I play defense correctly. Size has it's advantages, but in a game of lazy passes and people that can't actually do turn around fade aways you can ALWAYS do play great defense, regardless of size. The only thing that beats me in the post is getting tired, a great pass, or someone that actually knows what they're doing (really rare). mastershakeman posted:I understand where Doltos is coming from - if you didn't grow up playing basketball, it's pretty much impossible to know what's cool and what isn't in pickup without trying it out. What you want to do on perimeter defense, if they are driving on you constantly is back off and force them to shoot jumpers. Typically they won't hit them with any regularity, especially if you play outside. Find out what hand they are dominant and play to that side of the court. so if they are right hand dominant put your body more open to that side. This will leave you open for cross overs, but most people can't go to their left so you'll usually be fine. When they drive on you body them up. Use your body to force them backwards and counter their momentum. As other's have posted, try to funnel them towards other defenders. I love when people try to drive baseline on me because i just funnel them to the side line and they have no idea what to do with the ball so they either pick up their dribble or try to turn around and I steal it. Beware of spin moves on the baseline, though, but you aren't going to run into THAT good of a player much. And the absolute most important thing you can do in defense..... keep your legs bent and low as gently caress. You can jump passing lanes like crazy if you're kind of fast and low to the group. dudemanbudguy fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Jun 12, 2012 |
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Jun 12, 2012 19:50
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The simplest way I can put defense is to constantly stay between him and the basket. You don't need to be all that physical. Watch how he plays. Can he dribble well? No? Then play him a bit tighter. Yes? Play off him and wait for the drive because most dribble guys can't shoot well. But its all about making him take an awkward shot or drive instead of what he's comfortable with. You don't need to be stronger or even faster for that. If he scored on you, you can tell him that wasn't a bad shot. You can be sociable. It's not game 7 of the finals and you don't need to take it super personally if a guy is better than you. It happens. You're allowed to ask for a switch with someone else if the guy is killing you and you can ask for help in a specific area, like if he's bigger than you and killing you down low or whatever. But stop being dirty and hitting guys. Even if they do it to you, just assume it was an accident the first time around. It probably was. But if you're just some annoying gnat that doesn't say anything and undercuts like he has a chip on his shoulder then I would be a dick to you too. It's supposed to be fun
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Jun 12, 2012 23:53
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You should always congratulate opponents in pickup because they're probably going to be your teammates in a game at some point. That's also why I don't trash talk. I also found that being encouraging to a trash talker in a shooting slump is a good way to make him calm his mouth down a bit.
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Jun 13, 2012 06:27
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dudemanbudguy posted:I don't get this. I'm 5'9 135 pounds and I can defend most people even dudes bigger than me in the post, because I play defense correctly. Size has it's advantages, but in a game of lazy passes and people that can't actually do turn around fade aways you can ALWAYS do play great defense, regardless of size. The only thing that beats me in the post is getting tired, a great pass, or someone that actually knows what they're doing (really rare).  I suck at basketball and can consistently hit a turn around jumper, it's an easy shot, just people need to practice it!
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Jun 13, 2012 12:01
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I've found that the turnaround jumper is the easiest shot to block, followed by the reverse layup and the old man hook shot.
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Jun 15, 2012 17:12
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Also, on defense, always force your guy left. Chances that someone who isn't a lefty can handle the ball with both hands: slim to none, at least in your average pick-up game. Once you hit college gyms etc. things obviously change. But if a guy has only one good hand and you deny him that, he'll get frustrated in a hurry.
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Jun 15, 2012 17:52
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Has anyone tried a cup of coffee before playing basketball? can caffeine help you play harder?
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Jun 18, 2012 23:32
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do you feel me posted:Has anyone tried a cup of coffee before playing basketball? can caffeine help you play harder? Skittles works for Rose and Odom so I guess so, sure. This ain't the pros. Take all the PED's you can my man.
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Jun 19, 2012 01:05
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Just don't do what I did once and eat a pound of smoked turkey about 30 minutes before playing, I owned face for about 20 minutes and then felt like I was gonna puke 
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Jun 19, 2012 01:07
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I use steroids & HGH & amphetamines then before every pickup game I take a monster dose of clenbuterol. King of the Courts Baby!
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Jun 19, 2012 01:12
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do you feel me posted:Has anyone tried a cup of coffee before playing basketball? can caffeine help you play harder? I know some rugby union and AFL players used/still do take them, but I think studies showed that after a certain level caffeine can actually have a negative impact on performance. They were scoffing like 6 or so no-doz though so it isn't really comparable.
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Jun 19, 2012 01:38
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Thank you guys so much for the advice on defense. I played for an hour or so today, and my friend noticed how much better I suddenly was and found it pretty funny when I told him I'd asked the internet for help. Keeping the hands up and shuffling in front of him totally shut down his offense. He also called a foul once and I got to say I didn't leave my feet and had my hands in the air the whole time, so the foul was clearly on him for charging into me
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Jun 23, 2012 22:59
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That's awesome. Yeah, moving your feet is the usual sin of playing defense in pickup ball. Don't worry about going north and south so much (since most guys can't shoot too well) but staying east and west to take the drive away. With the hands, I'm pretty guilty of keeping my hands down on defense for the most part but when I know a guy is going up for a shot I bring my long, gangly arms up to defend and I find that it does throw their shot off when I do it. I wouldn't recommend doing that unless you're a bit more advanced, though, since you might end up biting on a lot of pump fakes and/or losing your balance
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Jun 24, 2012 11:34
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I will be playing here in a couple hours for the first time in over a year. Honestly I am a bit worried as I don't know anyone that will be there and I am not sure what the competition will be like. As long as I don't just get mauled out there I guess I will be alright. I am also pretty excited because I love playing the sport. Wish me luck!
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Jun 27, 2012 00:16
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Beginner's Guide to Man-to-Man Defense STANCE Feet should be something like 1.5-2x shoulder width apart and keep your hips low. Your hips should be lower than the guys you're guarding, but far enough above being in-line with your knees that it's comfortable. Feet can do whatever feels natural, but don't point them both straight forward or straight out to the side. Keep your weight on the balls of your feet, not your heels at all times. Lean forward a bit from your waist so that your shoulders are just forward from your hips. Keep your hands up in front of your chest if you have nothing better to do with them at the time. MOVEMENT Avoid having your feet leave the ground much when you're moving on defense. Use short, choppy shuffle steps to move around unless you get beat badly enough that you need to stand up and book it to get back in front of your guy. Don't cross your feet when shuffling unless you want to trip yourself up. If your feet are in contact with the ground and you're not committing to large lunging steps you can react and change direction more quickly. Maintain a small distance between you and the guy you're guarding, close enough that you could reach out and touch their body. Closer if you can pull it off. It's like a dance. Stay between your man and the basket. Specifically, keep your body between his body and the basket. Stay balanced and centered and don't over-commit to any motions. If you need to get somewhere, move your feet instead of lunging and reaching. Learning how much to commit is a trial and error thing, so if you get beat on a play ask yourself if you could have done something differently and adjust for next time. THE REST If your opponent is better than you, watch their body, not their hands or the ball. The ball and their hand and legs can go all over the place and throw all kinds of feints, the body doesn't lie and will show you where they're going. If you can't read their crossovers, take a small step back when you see them start getting fancy with their dribble so you have more space to react to whichever direction they take it. If their shooting is weak, play defense farther away until they get close enough to the basket to be a threat. Playing them tight gives them a better chance to get past you entirely. If they're not a threat on the drive because they're slow, short, or your team has strong help on defense, then play defense tight to deny them easy shots and put pressure on their passing and dribbling. Don't constantly swipe at the ball for steals when they're dribbling. Position your hands so that a crossover would bring it into the path of your hand when they try. For example, if your opponent is facing you and trying to cross over from his right to left hand, keep your right hand extended low and in the path of where his crossover would go. If he tries, awesome, you have a good chance at a steal. If he doesn't, awesome, you're controlling his movement. Figure out which hand is your opponent's dominant hand, and try to force him to use his other one. For example, if your opponent is right-handed, shift your defense towards his right side so using that hand would be dangerous. Keep your left hand low and ready to steal if he tries to switch back to his right hand and force him to his weaker side. Related to forcing your opponent to one side, you can also force your opponent towards the baseline and trap him so that he's forced to pick up his dribble. BOX OUT. This means whenever a shot goes up, take a wide, low stance and put your back against your opponent to prevent them from getting the rebound. Leaning against them is fine, but keep your balance so you don't fall over if they suddenly move away. Boxing out is fundamental to good defense because it prevents them from rebounding and gaining possession of the ball after a shot. Don't jump for blocks unless you know you can make it. You don't need to block every shot. It's overall very effective if you just make every shot they take more difficult by crowding them and having your hand close enough that they have to adjust when they shoot. Jumping for blocks opens you up to being burned by a good fake and looking like a chump while they cruise past you while you're flying the wrong direction. Playing good defense is tiring, but stick with it. It's also tiring to play against and you can wear out your opponent on offense by making him work for every shot and every rebound. If your opponent is getting tired, sweaty and frustrated you are doing it right (assuming you're not fouling or playing dirty somehow).
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Jun 27, 2012 07:09
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It's common sense but so many people don't realize it while playing. You don't try to block shots or really even try to 'stop' them. You try to force them to go where YOU want and try to make them take the most awkward, difficult shot possible, as opposed to anything they feel comfortable with. Did that last shot he made feel like it was kind of lucky? It probably was. Keep doing what you're doing. Even if that awkward fadeaway is 'his shot,' its a stupid shot so you're winning. Play intelligently, because chances are the retard in front of you isn't. Just like there's all kinds of effective ways to play offense, there are ways for defense and your style should be suited with whatever you're strengths are and what you feel comfortable with. I never gamble for steals and prefer to just play straight man to man defense and do my best to make my guy look stupid on offense. A lot of guys gamble and it works for them. Just don't be the guy everyone rolls their eyes at after your guy scores on you yet again and you're not changing anything.
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Jun 27, 2012 07:36
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BIZORT posted:It's common sense but so many people don't realize it while playing. You don't try to block shots or really even try to 'stop' them. You try to force them to go where YOU want and try to make them take the most awkward, difficult shot possible, as opposed to anything they feel comfortable with. Did that last shot he made feel like it was kind of lucky? It probably was. Keep doing what you're doing. Even if that awkward fadeaway is 'his shot,' its a stupid shot so you're winning. Play intelligently, because chances are the retard in front of you isn't. Basketball is great that way. Each team will score a whole bunch of times over the course of a game so you can afford to play the averages, and can also afford to take risks since a failed risk isn't the end of the world. Some sports have such low scoring games that one lucky point can decide it.
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Jun 27, 2012 08:00
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By the way, what's the etiquette on off-the-ball defense? I love help defense, but when you're playing against lovely passers, it just seems easier to deny the ball, specially in the post. It's kinda annoying, though.
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Jun 27, 2012 08:15
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cisneros posted:By the way, what's the etiquette on off-the-ball defense? I love help defense, but when you're playing against lovely passers, it just seems easier to deny the ball, specially in the post. It's kinda annoying, though. It's probably annoying but I doubt you'd run into problems unless you're playing an rear end in a top hat
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Jun 27, 2012 08:33
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