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Alchenar posted:Federation just has a qualitative advantage in technology that needs to be addressed. They might have a slight edge over us but nothing substantial. Those missiles they fired at us are functionally identical to our Exocet missiles. The problem here is that our AMMs are massively out of date and the ships carrying them are not optimal for AMM usage, not enough tubes and certainly not enough missiles. We want to be able to put several AMMs out for every missile they fire at us. Given our current tech levels AMMs are probably our best bet for anti missile defenses. Our beam fire controls and turret tracking technology is not going to fair well against a 20kps missile without overwhelming numbers. However we have invested in our missile tech and we should be able to design a more modern variant that can intercept their missiles with better odds than 10%. Another option we haven't looked at is armor. We have a high ranking defense specialist which could push our armor tech forward very fast. It won't help against their mesons but missiles do not fair very well against heavy armor. This will of course take time though, so we are probably going to have to swallow our pride and give in to some of the Feds demands. We can then modernize our fleet and get a few jump ships out there and we had better hope the first system we find isn't a black hole/hostile aliens
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Mar 31, 2013 03:13
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The damage is about the same, my concern is how they're able to hit us from afar. It seems their sensor range and fire control system is superior?
Readingaccount fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Mar 31, 2013 |
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Mar 31, 2013 03:22
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Readingaccount posted:The damage is about the same, my concern is how they're able to hit us from afar. It seems their sensor range and fire control system is superior? See my last post for more detail, but in short: no, not superior tech, just a more well-rounded design.
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Mar 31, 2013 03:27
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Readingaccount posted:Didn't we agree that this was a probe/trap and that we should get out of dodge yesterday? Why did PHALANX stay for hours to save the crewmembers of a silent ship? It was overruled to capture the Jakarta.* *Which was a bad idea.
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Mar 31, 2013 03:36
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To: Prof Snark Re: Previous Message Never loving mind. Inform Soman that we're a toothless power and we have no choice but to sell him out. If necessary gently remind him that attacking us won't fix this.
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Mar 31, 2013 03:37
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Why, exactly, would Fred stop shooting now? We have pretty much publicly committed to keeping Earth war-free and their fleet totally outclasses ours. So, realistically, they're likely to scour the solar system of our fleet and then dictate whatever terms to us they like. We're not likely to have any new ships come through production quickly enough to address the imbalances revealed, I think. We're not likely to be allowed any kind of colonization fleet after something like that, so any kind of discussion of extra-solar colonies seems wishful thinking at this point. Also, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if our ship design bureau and construction crews are thoroughly infiltrated by the far-superior Fred intelligence apparatus. Their ships are pretty much tailor-made to exploit every weakness in our designs.
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Mar 31, 2013 03:46
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From: Operative Prof. Snark To: UN Politicians RE: Mars is FUBAR Sir, I'd like to point out that if I sent this message, it will get more civilians killed. Look, perhaps we should tell the Feds that even if they got Mars back, the amount of unrest there would make it a nightmare to hold. There would be protests and riots constantly, and cracking down on them would start this whole mess over again. Neither of us has anything to gain from winning this, and we need to get the Feds to see that.
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Mar 31, 2013 03:49
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The important thing is getting them into the negotiation table. Once there we can start pulling and giving stuff. Once negotiations start, we can plainly ask them what it would take for them to let the BFM be. For example, we probably could suggest that we will let them have a free hand in eastern europe, have mining rights over some of the unexploited celestial bodies in our solar system, whatever. Just to see if they're open to the idea. IF they still insist on getting back at the BFM, then we tell them that it would be a bloody mess, with lots of sabotage and unrest, and that this time we absolutely won't come to the aid of either side. If they still insist on it, then we tell them that we will let them be, but with certain conditions: the return of our batallions and transport ships, and the promise to not enact another blockade. I don't think our navy is that badly outmatched, just that it is too uncertain for us to go all in, hoping for victory over the Federation. We learned a lot in these battles, so we should go back home, and apply what we learned so next time we can have the odds on our side. The leadership should let Dr. Magicboots concentrate our labs into the last of the jump tech, then we should go for the better sensors, Dragon's teeth, Meson cannons, force fields and so on. Have some of the labs investigate the more exotic tech, so when we need it for whatever comes along, we at least have a head-start on the science and can procure it faster.
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Mar 31, 2013 04:21
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The Federation has just displayed the superiority of their cruisers. When we eventually get on the negotiating table we must sell out the BFM. We have lost.
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Mar 31, 2013 04:46
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Jesus christ, we had one bad engagement and you all want to throw it in. Strategize, think outside the box you wet blankets! We still have the rest of the fleet. We can put considerable pressure on the fed. Also leaving the BFM out to dry is a horrible, horrible thing to do.
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Mar 31, 2013 04:52
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Chiwie posted:Jesus christ, we had one bad engagement and you all want to throw it in. They have five Skorys. Three are sufficient to destroy our entire fleet before they get into range. If you have any clever suggestions, name them. edit: vvvv Do I really need to repeat my speech? Short version: if we fire on Earth, they can destroy everything we have on Earth and lock us out of space forever. Added Space fucked around with this message at 04:59 on Mar 31, 2013 |
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Mar 31, 2013 04:54
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Added Space posted:They have five Skorys. Three are sufficient to destroy our entire fleet before they get into range. If you have any clever suggestions, name them. Fire a warning shot at the Fed's shipyards with our Earth-based weapons. This is getting ridiculous, let's get back to a nice friendly MAD approach to this insanity.
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Mar 31, 2013 04:57
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Added Space posted:They have five Skorys. Three are sufficient to destroy our entire fleet before they get into range. If you have any clever suggestions, name them. Attack things away from the Skorys? Destroy anything Fed owned that crosses the ships path? Resort to piracy?
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Mar 31, 2013 04:59
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Added Space posted:They have five Skorys. Three are sufficient to destroy our entire fleet before they get into range. If you have any clever suggestions, name them. I think we are missing on important detail here: The feds don't know how badly they have us outgunned! All they know is that their cruisers can blow the bejesus out of our escorts and that we can do the same to their escorts. Let's keep it that way and not push for further escalation, we back down but not in a way that let's off just how badly we are outgunned. Posture but don't push. Call in the rest of fleet and make a show of force but avoid actual engagement at all costs in the name of "peace and negotiations". edit: We are in a similar position to the Soviet Union during the old days, ostensibly we are outgunned but that's fine so long as our enemy believes we are a real threat. At this point we are not going to be able to salvage Mars, throw them to the wolves and make a few concessions to the BFM (like amnesty, "elections" etc) that we can play in the media to save face a little. Keep our combined fleet near Mars to "oversee the transfer of power" and "unsure no human rights violations are taking place" and to remind the Feds that while we may have lost this round we still pose a military threat (we don't but they don't have to know that). edit2: Also make sure we self-destruct that ship before they board it. MagicBoots fucked around with this message at 05:29 on Mar 31, 2013 |
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Mar 31, 2013 05:14
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I vote that we tell the feds to back off or we'll glass the earth. Then to show we're serious we glass the earth.
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Mar 31, 2013 05:49
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Honestly at this point, if Mars didn't have the Belnar ruins, I would have advocated that Mars go to Fred outright, just to get us out of this mess. Let them deal with the BFM, and let us overhaul our fleet setup/oob/component designs. How many Belnar installations are there left on Mars to be explored at this point?
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Mar 31, 2013 05:53
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RIP UN. That was a good run you had.
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Mar 31, 2013 06:07
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Bridge of the UNS Negros Videolog 26th May 2033, 3:44 UTC  Multiple hull-breaches on both decks, spread from bow to stern! [Takes a swig from the flask] Well, we're screwed. All hands prepare to abandon ship. Khethiwe! Establish a link and dump our sensor-logs and comm-logs to HQ back home. All of it. Aye, Ma'am. Engineering! I want scuttling-charges armed. Rig the remaining missiles if you have to.  That could take a few, cap'n, but I'll see what I can do. Hey, if nothing else, you can destabilize the reactor or something. Medical! You have priority on the escape-pods. Get the wounded to settled as best you can, then clear out as soon as possible.  A-Aye Ther- captain. Just promise me you won't do anything stupid? And leave you to face academy reunions alone? Not a chance. We can take another round of fire, no problem. She'll hold together.[Muted explosion] C'mon baby, please hold together. 
TLM3101 fucked around with this message at 06:45 on Mar 31, 2013 |
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Mar 31, 2013 06:41
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bgreman posted:Aurora takes the smallest possible object as just under 1/3rd of a hull space (0.33 HS), so all objects smaller than that (size 6 missiles and smaller) get detected as if they were 0.33 HS. The point to take away from this is that, given that we should expect to be fired on by missiles of size six or less, an antimissile-missile fire control is effectively only useful at 10.89% [(.33/1)^2] of it's listed range. Relatedly, as we just noticed, if this value is not at least twice that of the fastest enemy missiles, the AMM-FC in question is effectively rendered unreliable due to Also as we just learned, missile range is really important. Since we can't reasonably keep a ring of frigates 10mkm away from our Berlin-II's to let them use their Exocets to full effect, i propose an immediate emergency redesign of the class to let it actually fire out to its weapon's useful range, using the following sensor: BAE UN/SGS-13 Kronos Search Sensor posted:Active Sensor Strength: 42.5 Sensitivity Modifier: 50% Since we know the Moskva is beam-armed, they pose no threat of closing to firing range undetected as they'll still be seen at around 1.8mkm out, even if the ship using this sensor has no escorts with Jove arrays. Also, since this design is the same size and cost as the Jove, we can keep using the yards as they are and it'll be a quick re-refit for the Berlin currently under refit. Ceebees fucked around with this message at 08:28 on Mar 31, 2013 |
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Mar 31, 2013 08:23
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Might want to consider treason charges for the executives at Honeywell, because the *only* missile detection sensor in the UN navy cannot actually detect missiles in time to shoot them down. Just in time for a real shooting war.quote:(ooc: a fairly common new player mistake in designing res 1 sensors, the assumption that 1.5m kilometers means its missile detection range, but that's the detection range for a 50t ship. Steve is adding a more informative description in v6.3) Presumably the Skory has a working sensor and some form of point defense (probably interceptor missiles), and the Moskva's mesons can contribute to defensive fire assuming the Skory paints the targets. No hard intel as of yet on the firing rate of their ASMs, but considering they are size 4 and the positing the same level of reload technology, 120 seconds seems like a good bet. But all you chicken littles running around screaming the sky is falling might want to man up and consider our options. Tactical Options for PHALANX: The first missile salvo was detected while the Skory was approximately 3.5mkm out (assuming it moved at max speed towards the TG since first detected). It closes at 320k between salvos so it fired that salvo approximately 3 minutes ago. If he's firing at maximum rate the second salvo is in the air, and the 3rd is one minute away from firing. Now a lot depends on his magazine size, but at least 10 full salvos is a good guess, but more is certainly a possibility. Considering relative speeds he'll be able to empty his tubes at PHALANX regardless of whether they reverse direction or scatter. So no matter what actions the task force takes they're going to eat missiles. The point-defense SNAFU ensures this (Honeywell!) If he doubles up salvos on ships he's practically guaranteed 5 kills and a couple of ships *might* escape (doubtful the Moskva's would chase uncrippled ships considering what just happened to them). If he spreads the salvos out probably the entire task force is crippled and hounded down by the Mosvka's or the Skory finishes them off with his (presumed) Size 1 launchers. Scattering to pretend to threaten asteroids is an empty threat (which we can't make good on anyway due to the above); even if we could make good on it you think the Feds are scared of losing a couple of automated mines? PHALANX should first turn off its automatic AMM fire control as it's just wasting missiles at the moment; they can be fired manually if the range increment gods are kind on a particular incoming salvo. The SSM-6A Hornet missile has a great range for a size 1 missile, and as of yet the Skory doesn't have an active sensor lit up that could detect them. We could get 4 salvos off at the Skory before the next incoming salvo arrives (minus TF training firing delays). That's 120 missiles and is sure going to ruin his day and there's no way he can stop them all. We should do this whether we close or flee. It's much slower than the Fed missiles so it will have somewhere between a 5-6 minute closing time depending on his maneuvers. At 30 seconds between volleys if we fire now our first volley will hit sometime around him firing his 5th volley and the 4th will hit around his 6th volley. It's quite possible we'll take out some of his tubes before that happens if not even destroying him, thus reducing *our* future casualties. Fleeing without an all-out attack on the Skory will *increase* our chances of losing the entire task group. If we destroy/cripple him on his 6th volley that's 16 (or more) missiles PHALANX doesn't have to weather. If PHALANX is going to die it better sell itself dearly. It would be criminal to lose a task group and not at least have hard intel on the Skory's anti-missile defense for planning future engagements. And make no mistake, the Feds are not going to let us just slink away here. As far as maneuvering goes, keep in mind there will likely be a delay in executing any course change for the same reason we're having firing delays; though it's probable the Feds are having the same TF training issues. The main decision to make is whether to flee (abandoning the Negros), or close. The best possible course is to continue closing. We are already on a closing course, so we will have no order delay. Furthermore this will decrease the spacing between our missile volleys. This is critical, because assuming the Skory has 30 second reload times on his AMMs, the decreased spacing will cause the second and subsequent volleys to strike just inside this 30 second reload window getting us more hits. If the Skory reverses course to counter, he'll increase *his* spacing giving us more options. After the last volley is fired, we can reverse course and head towards Mars. The Mars detachment regardless should immediately head at flank to rendezvous with PHALANX. If the worst case occurs they can help cover any survivors and chase off any pursuing Moskvas. After the resolution of the missile volleys, if effective we can reverse course again and rescue Negros and claim victory (doubt the Mosvka's would stick around, especially if we keep a few missiles in reserve). Those counseling we should roll over and die: France is that-a-way.
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Mar 31, 2013 09:31
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Grunden posted:PHALANX should first turn off its automatic AMM fire control as it's just wasting missiles at the moment; they can be fired manually if the range increment gods are kind on a particular incoming salvo. It should be noted that automated PD firing is not subject to firing delays. Manually targeting the salvos and firing at them that way WOULD be so subject, and would most likely be even more worthless. Grunden posted:The SSM-6A Hornet missile has a great range for a size 1 missile, and as of yet the Skory doesn't have an active sensor lit up that could detect them. We could get 4 salvos off at the Skory before the next incoming salvo arrives (minus TF training firing delays). That's 120 missiles and is sure going to ruin his day and there's no way he can stop them all. We should do this whether we close or flee. It's much slower than the Fed missiles so it will have somewhere between a 5-6 minute closing time depending on his maneuvers. At 30 seconds between volleys if we fire now our first volley will hit sometime around him firing his 5th volley and the 4th will hit around his 6th volley. It's quite possible we'll take out some of his tubes before that happens if not even destroying him, thus reducing *our* future casualties. Since it appears to have gone unnoticed before: No UN vessels are within effective firing range of the Skory or her escorts. Furthermore, none of the ships in PHALANX is armed with the "Hornet." They are all carrying "Mosquitos." They are capable of carrying "Hornets" and the default loadout for the Samar/Samar II class has them, but they were specifically loaded with "Mosquitos" for Operation PHALANX in order to ensure all ships were firing the same kind of missile to ensure coordinated salvos. (That this later turned out to be unnecessary against the Moskvas is another discussion). To break the situation down, since it keeps causing confusion: UN Sensor Suites:
UN Sensor Capabilities:
UN Missile Ranges:
All ships in PHALANX are currently armed with "Mosquitos." Tactical Situation  This image shows the large-scale sitrep. It shows the maximum engagement range for the various MFCs in the group, the maximum missile ranges for the weapons carried by the group, as well as the maximum active sensor range for those ships who have their actives switched on. Currently, the PHALANX flagship UNS Bohol (Samar II-class) is orbiting Mars, along with the other Samar II-class currently in existence, UNS Romblon. These ships have their full ammunition load, and their designation is PHALANX ACTUAL. At bearing 73 solar true and range of 17.3m km from Mars, the rest of PHALANX is currently at a holding point 90k from the Federation Moskva-class vessel Jakarta, which has been crippled in the earlier action by UNS Negros. To return to Mars would take PHALANX 100 minutes at their maximum speed.  This listing shows the ships in this portion of the PHALANX TG, along with their remaining ammunition. You can see that Quirono (a Surigao) has her active sensor (a "Warbler") activated, and Visayas (a Samar) has hers on (an "Overwatch"). Additionally, UNS Negros has been detached from this group (due to her being adrift with destroyed engines) but is still very near by. Negros still has three functioning launchers and three missiles remaining, the rest being destroyed with her magazines.  This image shows a closer view of the situation near the active combat ships. The formation has an active contact for all four Moskvas (including Jakarta and the three Moskvas of ABROGATOR) and the Skory, thanks to the "Overwatch" on Visayas. PHALANX is currently 90k km from Jakarta and 3.5m km from ABROGATOR. As can be seen, this is outside the range of the "Aegis" MFC, but even was ABROGATOR within this range, the short range of the "Mosquito" missiles the TG is armed with would preclude firing until ABROGATOR was within 1.8m km. It should be noted that Jakarta was making directly for ABROGATOR, based on her course. bgreman fucked around with this message at 10:21 on Mar 31, 2013 |
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Mar 31, 2013 09:54
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bgreman posted:It should be noted that automated PD firing is not subject to firing delays. Manually targeting the salvos and firing at them that way WOULD be so subject, and would most likely be even more worthless. Yes, I considered that, but a successful interception is pretty unlikely in any case; and my scenario relied on keeping missile for offensive use. bgreman posted:Since it appears to have gone unnoticed before: No UN vessels are within effective firing range of the Skory or her escorts. Furthermore, none of the ships in PHALANX is armed with the "Hornet." They are all carrying "Mosquitos." They are capable of carrying "Hornets" and the default loadout for the Samar/Samar II class has them, but they were specifically loaded with "Mosquitos" for Operation PHALANX in order to ensure all ships were firing the same kind of missile to ensure coordinated salvos. (That this later turned out to be unnecessary against the Moskvas is another discussion). Well that is just really unfortunate, obviously I was basing that off of default loadouts. Closing to 1.8mkm even with both TGs heading straight at each other would ensure at least 3 more salvos intercepting PHALANX before entering firing range. So the options fall to: - Surrender now (a political decision) - Flee and hope a couple of ships escape (unlikely) - Close and get some intel and still possibly inflict some damage. As painful as that is, that's still the better option than just running and getting shot in the back. Ships surviving or not are going to be up to the Skory's magazine size and targeting choices no matter which direction PHALANX turns. Assuming 3 ships get crippled/destroying during closing; that's still some 80ish missiles that can be sent their way. Of course they may reverse course and not allow us to get in range; but then they may (they don't have perfect intelligence on our situation). Could always turn and run then, it won't likely change the results of just running without trying. It's a poo poo sandwich for sure; but if they're going to die they should at least die swinging. Otherwise surrender is the most prudent option.
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Mar 31, 2013 10:36
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There is also the point that all five ships closest have Federation prisoners aboard. The group could suggest that they not be killed until they can put the injured on Mars.
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Mar 31, 2013 10:44
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Did you miss the fact about having to close the distance 1.8 million kilometers? They have the range advantage, even at half our speed they could run in front of us for twenty minutes, more then enough time to put a salvo into every one of our ships. This is a territorial squabble, not a total war. There's no reason to send men on a suicide charge.
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Mar 31, 2013 10:45
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I just love that a couple of days ago we were discussing our supremacy over the pitiful Freds military and now we're about to lose our entire task force.
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Mar 31, 2013 10:49
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Affi posted:I just love that a couple of days ago we were discussing our supremacy over the pitiful Freds military and now we're about to lose our entire task force. I love how it was only after we escalated to fleet warfare that someone pointed out that we cannot win a fleet engagement. First we provoke a war we aren't ready for, then we escalate to a level we cannot possibly win. 
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Mar 31, 2013 12:26
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Welp. Definitely not what I'd hoped for when I suggested a limited encounter for intel purposes, but I guess we never really had a choice of whether to fight ABROGATOR. And we did learn something, harsh though the lesson is turning out. If the choice is really down to die running away or die charging madly and hoping to get a lucky hit in, I guess I'd go for the charge, though I admit I'd have a lot of trouble giving that order in real life. Still, if we confirm the numbers and they're really that dire even for a retreat, and if the Federation prisoners (read: "hostages") on board don't deter them, then perhaps a bum rush will get lucky and disable the Skory--they don't have many of those and we could at least make their win here Pyrrhic. 
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Mar 31, 2013 14:04
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Well, at least we're the scrappy underdog now. With regards to PHALANX, I think we need to continue the engagement. At this point, we still know very little about the forces we are facing beyond Moskva and some of the features of the Skory. We are in a position to learn more and must capitalize on it. On a strategic sense, if we retreat, we have essentially handed another engagement victory to the Feds. Any wavering state would be that much more convinced to join the opposing side. If we cannot start a war and actually fight, than our navy is by definition a paper tiger. The winner of this engagement will not be the one who comes away with the most hulls intact, but who learns the most from it. We need to seriously reexamine our void warfare doctrine.
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Mar 31, 2013 14:13
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Fell Fire posted:On a strategic sense, if we retreat, we have essentially handed another engagement victory to the Feds. Any wavering state would be that much more convinced to join the opposing side. If we cannot start a war and actually fight, than our navy is by definition a paper tiger. The winner of this engagement will not be the one who comes away with the most hulls intact, but who learns the most from it. Another victory? Didn't we win the first battle? Akratic Method posted:Welp. Definitely not what I'd hoped for when I suggested a limited encounter for intel purposes, but I guess we never really had a choice of whether to fight ABROGATOR. And we did learn something, harsh though the lesson is turning out. The charge isn't going to work, I believe the argument was. The Skory and Moskvas can just kite or run circles around our group. It seems the only immediately sensible strategy is to a) scatter to force them to hunt down each and every ship, b) hang on tight and hope they won't fire on ships with Federation members inside or c) calmly surrender once/before they've destroyed PHALANX' combat capacity and scuttle our ships so they won't be able to retain the technology. Either way, we've lost this battle. We could call the Feds and say we're willing to go to the negotiation table with the terms they've offered, but at the moment that's probably the clearest sign of weakness we could give.
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Mar 31, 2013 15:06
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TLM3101 posted:
I dearly hope this gallant captain survives the war. She deserves a medal. MagicBoots posted:I think we are missing on important detail here: Yeah, we should definitely posture but not push. If I've understood things correctly though, we know each others' tech levels. This means they know they have implemented better missile tech on the Skory than we have researched and that we do not have better warship techs than them in any area. That and the information they've picked up from the most recent battle pretty much leaves them with good information and guesses on most of our pertinent data, except our top cruiser speed. If this is correct moving our cruiser fleet into just the same theatre means they will be tempted to simply eradicate the force to avoid us upgrading it after peace, and the Federation may act aggressively as before with the troop ships when it thinks it has more to win. Furthermore it will mean they'll have more time to secure Jupiter, any time now we may lose those colonies and once they've got them they may not be willing to give them back entirely, or at all. At this point, if they would take a white peace where we turn over the land the BFM gave us and abandon the BFM, we should jump at it. Even if they demand to keep the troopships it would still be generous. I agree we should wait till the engagement is done as otherwise we'll seem entirely desperate, but let's not wait more than an hour or so after that engagement concludes, as every day brings them closer to Jupiter. Readingaccount fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Mar 31, 2013 |
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Mar 31, 2013 15:38
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Added Space posted:Did you miss the fact about having to close the distance 1.8 million kilometers? They have the range advantage, even at half our speed they could run in front of us for twenty minutes, more then enough time to put a salvo into every one of our ships. I didn't miss that fact; they can put those salvos into us no matter what we do. The question is what to do with the time while they are killing us. As to why we're limited in range, that was someone's *brilliant* idea to ditch all of our long range weaponry and then engage on an offensive campaign. Added Space posted:This is a territorial squabble, not a total war. There's no reason to send men on a suicide charge. Do we know that for sure? That might have been the case if we'd just shooed them away from Mars. But we instead pursued and sought to destroy/capture their ships. Do you think they are going to hold off on the chance to wipe out a bunch of our ships for the sake of some prisoners? Remember this is the government that intentionally sacrificed a lot of its civilians on Mars for their ill-fated power grab attempt. With our pursuit of the Mars blockade we have shown them that we're after their navy; why wouldn't they reciprocate? They would be stupid not to press their advantage and demand not only the complete surrender of the task group, but also their complete demands regarding Mars. If they run they'll be destroyed, if they surrender we lose the ships anyway, and they may not accept the surrender without accepting their demands on Mars as well. They have shown time and time again they will press their advantage when they feel they have one; recall KRONOS was an attempt to start a war when they felt they had the upper hand. Unless we surrender immediately, the only real choice becomes on how we die. If they're dead anyway we might as well inflict a bloody nose on the way down. This is a limited/colonial war now; made so by our actions. If we don't have the stomach to follow it through, what were we doing starting it? Grunden fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Mar 31, 2013 |
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Mar 31, 2013 17:32
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"We aren't going to help you fight the BFM, but we're not going to stand in your way" might have been a good position to take. Before we let the Federation make off with the two ships in the solar system capable of carrying TN combat troops.
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Mar 31, 2013 17:41
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To be clear, I would only advocate a suicide charge in the event that a) either the EC won't permit, or the Feds won't accept, a surrender, and b) our speed isn't enough to retreat without giving then time enough to shoot us down as we run. I'm well aware that if the charge's chances of success have more than one digit then they're probably both behind a decimal point. But I read the previous post from Grunden as showing that even turning tail right now wouldn't put our ships outside their firing range until enough time had passed for enough missiles to disable everyone. If breaking formation to spread out fixes that and lets a few ships make their escape, that retreat is preferable. We might also consider leaving behind the ships with federation prisoners, having the rest flee while they try to use the prisoners as an incentive to pause for negotiations, letting the rest of PHALANX get away. The fact that Fred ignored that first hail makes me think Fred isn't going to have much mercy, though, and we already set the precedent of "chase down and destroy fleeing ships."
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Mar 31, 2013 17:49
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Akratic Method posted:To be clear, I would only advocate a suicide charge in the event that a) either the EC won't permit, or the Feds won't accept, a surrender That's my position, we either need to capitulate now (and if I was the Fed I wouldn't settle for less than all the marbles). Or see our actions through. Akratic Method posted:If breaking formation to spread out fixes that and lets a few ships make their escape, that retreat is preferable. That would be preferable, just unfeasible. Our offensive missiles have a range of 9mkm+, unless we're positing that the Skory fired at the maximum limit of its range (and it's sensors go out MUCH further than that) we cannot escape even scattering on perpendicular courses. Akratic Method posted:We might also consider leaving behind the ships with federation prisoners, having the rest flee while they try to use the prisoners as an incentive to pause for negotiations, letting the rest of PHALANX get away. The fact that Fred ignored that first hail makes me think Fred isn't going to have much mercy, though, and we already set the precedent of "chase down and destroy fleeing ships." Exactly; we've escalated this to a space superiority war. We could try to use the Fed prisoners as hostages, but my money is on the Feds being of the "shoot the hostage" variety of negotiators.
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Mar 31, 2013 18:04
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If we're going to die without accomplishing anything whether we flee or charge we should choose the option that gives us the most information.
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Mar 31, 2013 18:34
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So really why did we decide to let these guys into optimal range? I thought that we were faster then their Skory at least.
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Mar 31, 2013 19:19
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Affi posted:So really why did we decide to let these guys into optimal range? I thought that we were faster then their Skory at least. Because apparently along with poor ship design and poor strategic thinking and poor operational planning, we're also not so good at tactics.
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Mar 31, 2013 19:22
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Affi posted:So really why did we decide to let these guys into optimal range? I thought that we were faster then their Skory at least. Well... quote:As all known nearby threats have been neutralized, Negros deactivates its "Overwatch" scanner. Quirono keeps its shorter-ranged "Warbler" activated in order to keep tabs on the nearby disabled Moskvas. There's no real reason to turn off that sensor, and plenty of good reasons not to - so GM's fiat to drive the story, I guess.
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Mar 31, 2013 19:32
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Looks like the navy is going to have some job openings very soon! Sign me up for a navy command! I'd try telling the Feds that we have prisoners of theirs onboard our ships and make a run for it. If they don't want to shoot their own people (certainly a bit of an if) we can get away, assuming our ships can outrun a Skory.
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Mar 31, 2013 19:32
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Anta posted:I'd try telling the Feds that we have prisoners of theirs onboard our ships and make a run for it. If they don't want to shoot their own people (certainly a bit of an if) we can get away, assuming our ships can outrun a Skory. I don't know why everyone assumes that the federation won't state "They knew the risks" and just open fire.
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Mar 31, 2013 19:46
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