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I just don't remember his type of spirit beig given a specific designation so I just lumped him in. My mistake.
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Dec 30, 2011 04:03
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Supreme Allah posted:Is he the most powerful? I thought Melkor and Shelob's mother Ungoliant were both more powerful. IIRC even Melkor had problems dealing with Ungoliant. I thought Melkor was the step up from Maiar? Vala, vaiar? Something like that. You might be right about Ungoliant, though. EDIT: It takes nerdy discussions like this to remind myself how awesome the LotR setting actually is. It's probably more awesome because half of its ideas are only barely fleshed out.
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Dec 30, 2011 04:03
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Melkor/Morgoth was a Vala. The power thing is hard to judge because it is not really consistent across all the works. Fingolfin was almost able to defeat Morgoth one on one for example. In the first drafts of stuff Morgoth is just like a bad rear end slightly magical barbarian king and Sauron was a cat.
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Dec 30, 2011 04:04
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Here's a nerdy fanboy question: who'd win in a fight, Smaug or the Balrog? I know that according to the canon, the balrog is a maiar and Smaug is "just" a dragon, but Gandalf was a maiar himself and he seemed legitimately scared of what Smaug could do, so I don't think it's so simple as saying "maiar > everything". And in The Silmarillion, you've got Ancalagon the Black who scared the poo poo out of the maiar and Valar of Valinor, if I remember correctly.
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Dec 30, 2011 04:08
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Ungoliant had to be just one of the unique evil Maiar. Maiar and evil Maiar are really the only way I can categorize Sauron and Ungoliant. As for why Melkor felt threatened, I think he must've been in a weakened state after being the Valar's bitch for however long it was. Middle-First Age Morgoth would give no fucks.
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Dec 30, 2011 04:08
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I think dragons were a separate category of thing, but around the same level of power as a balrog. Especially when it came to wrecking poo poo.
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Dec 30, 2011 04:14
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euphronius posted:Melkor/Morgoth was a Vala. The power thing is hard to judge because it is not really consistent across all the works. Fingolfin was almost able to defeat Morgoth one on one for example. Fingolfin was a crazy motherfucker who basically didn't know how to die. I can't cast aspersions on a demon for going 12 rounds with likely the greatest warrior in middle earth history. Quality_Guaranteed posted:Here's a nerdy fanboy question: who'd win in a fight, Smaug or the Balrog? I'm going with the Balrog, only based on what it took to kill them. Gandalf fought himself literally to death beating the Balrog, but Smaug was killed by a guy with a really neat arrow. I just don't see Balrog going down to a single arrow no matter how neat it is, or how good the aim is. I'd love to see the fight though.
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Dec 30, 2011 04:19
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Morgoth by the first age was a shell of his former self due to putting so much of his power into his evil creatures and stuff.
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Dec 30, 2011 04:27
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Viridiant posted:The Balrog is a maiar, just like Sauron. The balrogs never really worked for Sauron, so I don't imagine he would have been compelled to bring it to him. He probably would have tried to use it for himself, but I believe it's stated somewhere that the only one that can use it to its true potential is Sauron. I always thought the the Will of the Ring would always be trying to bring its bearer(and thus itself) back to Mordor and Sauron.
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Dec 30, 2011 04:49
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euphronius posted:In the first drafts of stuff Morgoth is just like a bad rear end slightly magical barbarian king and Sauron was a cat. The cat was just one of the forms that Sauron took, right? He was also a werewolf I think in the First Age. And I forget what his name was when he appeared to the Numenoreans in Numenor itself. Sauron as a shape-shifter is inherent to his character.
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Dec 30, 2011 04:51
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Ungoliant was not a Maiar, nor an Ainur at all. No one really knows what she was. I've heard theories or her being a creature of the void or something before. I forget who says it and in what context, but "there are things in the deeps of the earth that even Sauron does not know about." Or something to that extent. Things far older than Sauron...
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Dec 30, 2011 04:57
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Twat McTwatterson posted:The cat was just one of the forms that Sauron took, right? He was also a werewolf I think in the First Age. And I forget what his name was when he appeared to the Numenoreans in Numenor itself. When he was with the Numenoreans, he was Sauron. He had been captured by Ar-Pharazon the Golden, last (and corrupted) king of Numenor. Ar-Pharazon foolishly captured him and brought him alive to Numenor, where Sauron used his powers (and the Ring) to bewitch/fool A.P. into leading an assault on Valinor. If you're looking for Sauron assuming a different name/personage, you may be thinking of when he appeared to the elves and instructed them in ring-making. Then, he called himself Annatar, the Giver of Gifts. **paraphrased and bastardized from the Silmarillion, if it's wrong feel free to correct and laugh at me**
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Dec 30, 2011 05:31
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The cat thing was from the way-early drafts, like around 1920. His name was Tevildo and Beren and Tynwfiel (or whatever her name was at the time) had to infiltrate his evil cat castle. And I know I don't contribute anything but pedantry to this thread, but aaaagh: "Maiar" is plural. "Maia" is the singular. (Same with Valar/Vala.) And "balrog" isn't a generic term for "evil Maia". They're a specific kind of creature, like trolls or dragons.
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Dec 30, 2011 05:36
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If The Hobbit makes crazy money, like Avatar money, I wonder if they'll consider adapting The Silmarillion/Unfinished Tales. It would be cool to see things like the siege of Gondolin, Melkor fighting Fingolfin, Beren and Luthien, Ulmo rising from the water etc. on the big screen, but it's probably too much, too big a scale, too many events.
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Dec 30, 2011 06:20
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Kemchimikemkem posted:If The Hobbit makes crazy money, like Avatar money, I wonder if they'll consider adapting The Silmarillion/Unfinished Tales. It would be cool to see things like the siege of Gondolin, Melkor fighting Fingolfin, Beren and Luthien, Ulmo rising from the water etc. on the big screen, but it's probably too much, too big a scale, too many events. They could just do the Tale of Beren and Luthien, though, or any isolated but major story. Beren and Luthien would even make sense, they could tie in with how she started the line of Arwen and how it foreshadows Aragorn and Arwen's marriage. ...They could do the Children of Hurin if they wanted a real downer.
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Dec 30, 2011 06:29
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Yeah, I find that more likely. Beren and Luthien alone might be boring though. I forget what was happening in its time, but if they could mix it with one of the epic wars it would be perfect (which may have happened, don't remember). And it'd be more likely to get greenlit cause there'd be the romance but also the armies clashing/bloodshed. Just gimme balrogs, dragons and elf lords ripping each other up, and Melkor, gotta have the first and ultimate badass.
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Dec 30, 2011 06:53
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Cpt. Spring Types posted:I graduated from high school the year it came out, and it still makes me feel old thinking about it. People I graduated with have kids and careers now, and I'm like, "gently caress that, I'm still youn--poo poo I'm almost 30." Still, the nostalgia is one of the major reasons I'm excited for The Hobbit. Surely it won't be all that similar in tone with LOTR, but seeing all of the characters again looking exactly the same is some crazy poo poo. Screw you, I'm FIFTY.  I also agree that "Beren and Luthien" would be a great flick.... But, drat, I wanna see Fëanor go all batshit.
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Dec 30, 2011 07:16
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I think the Akallabeth would be the most filmable part of the Silmarillion. Epic battles like the Numenoreans assaulting Mordor, the enormous flotilla sailing west to Valinor, all the court intrigue around Sauron's growing influence on Ar-Pharazon, the resistance lead by Elendil and his sons, the unlikely victory as Elendil escapes and founds Gondor and Arnor. Hell you could even throw in a romance for Isildur or Anarion. I'd watch the poo poo out of that!
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Dec 30, 2011 07:18
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Although I'm not sure adapting the Simarillion is a particularlly good idea, I imagine that could be a miniseries on Television rather than a movie, so that each tale had it's proper time to be told. I wanted to avoid the goon cliche of saying "HBO! It'd make a great HBO Show!" but it's pretty true in this case.
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Dec 30, 2011 07:43
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It's been a while since I read the Silmarillion, but if I remember correctly, each Vala had their own order of Maiar, to act as their servants. I thought that the Balrogs were formed from Melkor's own order, whereas Sauron had previously been with the blacksmith Vala before switching sides and becoming evil. And I think a series of movies could work very well for the Silmarillion, as its a series of discrete fleshed out stories (the fall of Feanor, Beren and Luthien, the children of Hurin, etc) joined together by a looser, Biblical-style narrative. Beren and Luthien would work particularly well, it's a classic hero's journey.
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Dec 30, 2011 08:28
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Wikipedia states that Balrogs were a type of Maiar that were 'scourges of fire' and were corrupted by Melkor. Octy fucked around with this message at 10:20 on Dec 30, 2011 |
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Dec 30, 2011 10:14
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I wonder if Peter Jackson wakes up in a sweat some nights thinking,"Oh God they're going to ask me to do the Silmarillion next...."? Or maybe he wakes up in a sweat thinking,"Oh God they're NOT going to ask me to do the Silmarillion next...."
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Dec 30, 2011 13:32
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Twat McTwatterson posted:The cat was just one of the forms that Sauron took, right? He was also a werewolf I think in the First Age. And I forget what his name was when he appeared to the Numenoreans in Numenor itself. Yeah I meant way back in the stuff published in HOME. My point was that the pantheon of gods and angels came after, and sometimes way after, JRRT had thought up a lot of the characters and stories so their relative power levels are inconsistent in some respects. Plus, and this is just my opinion, I don't know how much JRRT would really care about specific power levels over interesting and dramatic stories. Beren and Luthien steal a Silmaril from a sleeping Morgoth's crown. Now really, that makes no sense. I guess Luthien cast a sleep spell or whatever, but still. However it makes a great story.
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Dec 30, 2011 13:48
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euphronius posted:Beren and Luthien steal a Silmaril from a sleeping Morgoth's crown. Now really, that makes no sense. I guess Luthien cast a sleep spell or whatever, but still. However it makes a great story. I think the answer to this sort of implausible event is simply "fate"; Beren was fated to steal a silmaril (but only one). Fate is a pretty powerful thing in the lotr world, what with the whole of creation woven into the songs of the valar and all.
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Dec 30, 2011 14:03
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Plus Lúthien inherited some sleepy powers from Melian (who was one of the strongest of Irmo's maiar) and Morgoth didn't have anywhere near as much power of his own left as he began with. It's not that implausible.Kemchimikemkem posted:Yeah, I find that more likely. Beren and Luthien alone might be boring though. I forget what was happening in its time, but if they could mix it with one of the epic wars it would be perfect (which may have happened, don't remember). Beren and Lúthien's story takes place in the aftermath of the Dagor Bragollach, the battle where the Siege of Angband gets broken and Ard-galen gets incinerated. This is pretty much what Beren's background is, and it comes up again when he goes to Nargothrond for help because it means Felagund owes him. And yeah, there's so much interconnectedness in the Silmarillion (though more in the form of having the background make any sense than as concurrency) that you'd have to spend a lot of time on it to do it justice, really. I kind of want to see the whole thing done just so I can watch idiot Feanorians ruin everything at all times. 
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Dec 30, 2011 14:11
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If the film rights to The Silmarillion ever see the light of day it will basically give whichever studio acquires it a license to print money. I would imagine with a property of that caliber, they will make at least one trilogy of films based on parts of the Sil before they even think about doing a TV series. I imagine Jackson will executive produce - I cannot imagine him wanting to spend any more of his life directing Middle Earth films, such is the monumental effort it demands. I wonder who they'll recast to play Gandalf, assuming a Sil film is at least say 10 years off...
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Dec 30, 2011 14:45
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I still like the idea of doing The Silmarillion as a Fantasia-style cartoon, with no dialogue whatsoever. The general public wouldn't have the patience for it, but I suspect they wouldn't have the patience for anything based on The Silmarillion regardless. As for the ridiculous debate about the relative power of beings, I don't think there's any hard answer. Magic is very vague in Tolkien's work. It's not Dragonball where everyone has a specific strength rating.
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Dec 30, 2011 15:55
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Data Graham posted:The cat thing was from the way-early drafts, like around 1920. His name was Tevildo and Beren and Tynwfiel (or whatever her name was at the time) had to infiltrate his evil cat castle. So one of those cat villages only bigger and all the cats cast spells if they're bothered? Do the heros just bring a crate of nip or infiltrate it when the sun is high and they're all lying in sunbeams?
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Dec 30, 2011 19:51
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I hate you all for stoking my secret dream of seeing the Silmarillion adapted by Peter Jackson and company. It will never, ever happen but oh, if it did . . .
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Dec 30, 2011 20:25
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Geekboy posted:I hate you all for stoking my secret dream of seeing the Silmarillion adapted by Peter Jackson and company. It will never, ever happen but oh, if it did . . . I, too, would also enjoy seeing Peter Jackson's visualisation of the city of Gondolin falling to Morgoth's army of orcs, balrogs and dragons.
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Dec 30, 2011 20:39
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There will never be a Silmarillion film. The stories are too similar to what we've already seen. The Hobbit itself is a risk considering it shares almost note for note the same structure as LOTR.
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Dec 30, 2011 20:50
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Poor Peter Jackson. Between the Hobbit and Tintin his schedule will be packed for years and now you lot want him to do even more Tolkien? Besides it took him long enough to agree to even do the Hobbit, plus most Tolkien fans haven't even read the Silmarillion, forget about the general public.
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Dec 30, 2011 20:51
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REY DE LA PLAYA posted:There will never be a Silmarillion film. The stories are too similar to what we've already seen. The Hobbit itself is a risk considering it shares almost note for note the same structure as LOTR. Money doesn't work like that. Did I say money? I meant cinema. Seriously how is The Hobbit even remotely a risk? It's probably the least risky proposition in cinematic history. In fact WB are so confident in it that they've given it a budget of half a billion dollars american. Mr. Gibbycrumbles fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Dec 30, 2011 |
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Dec 30, 2011 20:56
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If anything that is even MORE of a reason to adapt it. "It has the same formula as one of the most popular fantasy movie franchises ever you say? Sold."
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Dec 30, 2011 21:00
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marktheando posted:plus most Tolkien fans haven't even read the Silmarillion, forget about the general public. You simply put "From the director of The Hobbit & The Lord of the Rings" on the trailer and movie poster. Free money.
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Dec 30, 2011 21:09
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Oasx posted:You simply put "From the director of The Hobbit & The Lord of the Rings" on the trailer and movie poster. Free money. I would give my firstborn for PJ to adapt the Sil but realistically it will be someone else.
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Dec 30, 2011 21:17
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They should do a film of the Adventures of Tom Bombadil instead.
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Dec 30, 2011 21:54
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marktheando posted:They should do a film of the Adventures of Tom Bombadil instead. Starring Johnny Depp. I would not watch this. Mr. Gibbycrumbles posted:I would give my firstborn for PJ to adapt the Sil but realistically it will be someone else. But Jackson is probably the only director working today that has
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Dec 30, 2011 22:02
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Erwin posted:But Jackson is probably the only director working today that has Del Toro is very spergin' too, and he read the Sil and Unfinished Tales as part of his preparation for The Hobbit. GDT would be an option as long as his experience on TH hasn't put him off the whole Tolkien thing.
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Dec 30, 2011 22:50
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Honestly right now anything that gets in the way of me getting my Peter Jackson directed Tintin sequel is something I'm going to want to fight.
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Dec 30, 2011 23:50
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