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Boywhiz88 posted:No offense man but if you're that ignorant of the situation in New Orleans during Katrina then you need to watch Trouble Thr Water, When The Levees Broke, and the Frontline on the bridge massacre and coverup. When the Levees Broke was really heartwrenching, and I think every American should watch it. I just found myself weeping several times, had to take breaks.
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Dec 18, 2014 05:35
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Absurd Alhazred posted:When the Levees Broke was really heartwrenching, and I think every American should watch it. I just found myself weeping several times, had to take breaks. Yeah. I think it's one of Spike Lee's best films. It's a really interesting event. Not as much documentation as what would be available now, but the right combination of elements such as class, government response, etc. The NOPD especially was monstrous, and conditions in the Superdome. That's the stuff that will make you cry. The elderly dying in the dome or on the street and just having to sit there. Ugh I wonder how different coverage would be with everyone having smartphones, etc.
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Dec 18, 2014 08:19
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Tangential, but I don't know what to make of this: http://jezebel.com/i-dont-know-what-to-do-with-good-white-people-1671201391 I'm as privileged as can be, so my initial reaction is to be defensive. I don't want to call the essay divisive, I recognize that I don't have that right. I guess it comes down to a general dislike critiques that don't offer any solvency.
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Dec 18, 2014 12:36
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I also had to really wrestle with what to take away from that article, but one of the responses made me cringe by opening with "I'm a good white person, I majored in African American Studies". I think what you're supposed to get is that white people should just be a little quieter with their activism and advocacy, and shouldn't presume to be perfect allies all the time. The article contradicts itself a bit by bringing up the criticism of #crimingwhilewhite without actually including the author's own take on the critique. I can see why people find the hashtag irritating but I also see its purpose and usefulness, but bringing up the controversy accuses "good white people" of drowning out nonwhite experiences (which sounds like it's discouraging people from speak up - after all, it's hard for white people to know if a given hashtag/rhetorical strategy/what have you is helpful or not), even as the rest of the article is concerned with the way good white people don't speak up enough. I get that the point of it is to say that white people refuse to critically examine fundamental causes of injustice, but in my mind #crimingwhilewhite is a pretty drat fundamental critique of racial inequality, so I don't get why that hashtag was brought up and not one of the more obviously problematic attempts by white people (hello libertarians) to co-opt the Michael Brown/Eric Garner cases for their own purposes. What also really bugged me about the article was that it was attributing to "good white people" some very, very plainly lovely behavior. Not even "these are bad allies" behavior, but "these people can't even be considered allies" behavior.
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Dec 18, 2014 12:54
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Cognac McCarthy posted:I also had to really wrestle with what to take away from that article, but one of the responses made me cringe by opening with "I'm a good white person, I majored in African American Studies". I think what you're supposed to get is that white people should just be a little quieter with their activism and advocacy, and shouldn't presume to be perfect allies all the time. The article contradicts itself a bit by bringing up the criticism of #crimingwhilewhite without actually including the author's own take on the critique. I can see why people find the hashtag irritating but I also see its purpose and usefulness, but bringing up the controversy accuses "good white people" of drowning out nonwhite experiences (which sounds like it's discouraging people from speak up - after all, it's hard for white people to know if a given hashtag/rhetorical strategy/what have you is helpful or not), even as the rest of the article is concerned with the way good white people don't speak up enough. I feel the same way. In some of the vignettes the condescension of white people towards black people was plainly evident but the one that irked me was telling white people that you shouldn't feel any kind of satisfaction by treating people equally or highlighting racism in your life because it drowns out the black experience. But the point of doing something like this is to show people that you stand with them in their cause. 'Honkys for Huey' were at least given enough respect to be allowed to stand with while advocating for systemic change.
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Dec 18, 2014 13:19
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I don't understand why you people have a problem with that article. It doesn't say that white people aren't allowed to feel good about supporting the right position, it just points out that they have a tendency to make everything about themselves. I'm pretty sure you all know that guy, the one who wears a "this is what a feminist looks like" shirt and talks about priviledge and how other white people misappropriate culture and so forth. Turns out, if you talk about all the great things you support and how important it is for people like yourself to support them, you're still talking about yourself. Like, yeah, those are all good things to support, but if you're talking about them because supporting them makes you look good, you're doing it wrong.
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Dec 18, 2014 13:42
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I read the article and I guess I'm just not sure what to do with the criticism. Is it a criticism of slacktivism, that we should do more than just argue with our racist acquaintances on the internet and post hashtags? Or is it an appeal to look at our own behavior to see when we're treating people of color differently rather than just lashing out at obvious racists? Or what? Like yeah being self-aggrandizing and pompous about doing the right thing to preen rather than out of actual concern isn't great, that's been pointed out as far back as the Book of Matthew and doubtlessly earlier. Perhaps this sounds like I'm, as a white person, making it all about me again, but since the subject of the article is white people it seems like a reasonable follow-up question. Is there a related "White people: this is what you should do" article so I can read it and go do that?
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Dec 18, 2014 14:04
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She has every right to be pissed, and as a result of that, she may sometimes not always direct her anger perfectly. I'm fairly certain her intention is not "gently caress every white person, never help us."
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Dec 18, 2014 14:07
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She does have every right to be pissed, but that still leaves open the question of how white people can actually help without pissing her off more. It's cool if she doesn't have an answer to that because it's not an easy problem, but as an ignorant white person I sure as gently caress don't have an answer to that and like in all other areas in which I'm ignorant I need to look to someone who knows better than I do to tell me what's what. You could say it's not her job to educate white people because she has her own life to live and that's fine, but time keeps moving on and I have to do things and if those things end up pissing her off I'd like to avoid doing that if I knew how.
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Dec 18, 2014 14:19
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White people wanting cookies ITT. Brit Bennett's article is not about your ego. It's barely even about you at all.
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Dec 18, 2014 14:28
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Defenestration posted:White people wanting cookies ITT. Uh what? We're literally all saying the article does a good job of critiquing white people who want to be congratulated for not being awful pieces of poo poo. We're not even really criticizing the article for not providing solutions (the post above yours concedes she doesn't have to take the time to educate white people if she doesn't want to). People are literally asking in good faith if anyone has another article with good concrete suggestions for white people to avoid being lovely. People like the conversation and want to continue it to better support people of color, how is that bad?
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Dec 18, 2014 14:36
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Cognac McCarthy posted:People like the conversation and want to continue it to better support people of color, how is that bad? Listen to you. "How can I help?" I! I I I I! Is "I" the only word you know? Shitlord  Defenestration posted:White people wanting cookies ITT. Is it possible for an ally to want to help without wanting a cookie? Rick_Hunter posted:I feel the same way. In some of the vignettes the condescension of white people towards black people was plainly evident but the one that irked me was telling white people that you shouldn't feel any kind of satisfaction by treating people equally or highlighting racism in your life because it drowns out the black experience. I would agree with the article that "treating people equally" actually shouldn't be a source of self-satisfaction. It's like seeing someone with a nice necklace and going "Hey I didn't mug you for that, you're welcome" VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Dec 18, 2014 |
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Dec 18, 2014 14:46
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It's good to remember:Malcolm X posted:He stopped and remained silent for a few moments. "Brother," he said finally, ''remember the time that white college girl came into the restaurant -- the one who wanted to help the Muslims and the whites get together -- and I told her there wasn't a ghost of a chance and she went away crying?"
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Dec 18, 2014 14:54
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E: I am dumb and didn't look at who I was responding to. Obvious sarcasm went over my head, sorry. I would also say as a pretty hard rule that it's best for white allies to never, ever invoke the words of [insert black leader] when defending themselves against criticism from people of color. Even if your intentions are good and the quote is apt, it's a terrible idea because you're arguing that your nonwhite critic needs to listen to [insert black leader] and you, who agree on an issue. And all the other reasons it's a terrible idea. Cognac McCarthy fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Dec 18, 2014 |
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Dec 18, 2014 14:54
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God white people are loving whiny, have some backbone and realize that participating in activism, donating to good causes, and doing what you can in your life to stop racism is good, regardless of whether or not some people get mad at you. Just don't be a pharisee on the corner about it.
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Dec 18, 2014 14:57
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VitalSigns posted:She does have every right to be pissed, but that still leaves open the question of how white people can actually help without pissing her off more. It's cool if she doesn't have an answer to that because it's not an easy problem,  yes it really, really is. You help by making sure you're the most vocal person in the room when it's time to decide whether to hire a POC or a white person, you donate, you make sure to be the most vocal person in the room when somebody is being a racist jackass, you advocate, and then you shut the gently caress up and wait for the people you're trying to support to tell you what to do next.
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Dec 18, 2014 16:04
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It's clearly not easy or obvious to me which is why I asked the question. Christ.quote:and then you shut the gently caress up and wait for the people you're trying to support to tell you what to do next. Yeah I get it, that's why I was like "hey can anyone link me to something written by the people I'm trying to support to tell me what to do?" VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Dec 18, 2014 |
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Dec 18, 2014 16:13
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No one's going to single-handedly loving solve racism. Stop hand-wringing about who might be a lovely ally if you squint hard enough. It's extraordinarily counterproductive. Yeah, white people sometimes say and do a lot of dumb bullshit due to their inherent privilege. However, on the other side of the coin, racism is a problem within the white community. Black people can raise awareness, but they sure as hell can't fix it. The ball just isn't in their court, and that's kind of the point. Boiled down, white people need to stop being lovely, and the vector for that is probably going to be white people shaming other white people into being less lovely. So this talk about who's a lovely ally just strikes me as petty infighting that is just going to make a bunch of well-meaning white people shrug their shoulders and say, "well, I guess I'm not of any use." who otherwise might have been able to be educated about being less lovely. The idea that white allies have little to offer because they can never really know what it feels like to experience racism is incredibly short-sighted. They may never know what racism feels like, but that doesn't mean they can't be effective in reaching out to white people who for sure aren't going to listen anything from people of color. Sure there are people who feel like they should be rewarded for whatever small token outreach they do, but literally every single popular movement in existence has experienced the concept of, "posers."
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Dec 18, 2014 16:28
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I think it's really demeaning to be relegated to being just an ally as an individual. If that's where you find yourself, wonder how the hell you got there, extricate yourself, then find a cause that's relevant for you, where you can actually legitimately be center-stage, and have that struggle ally with, say, #blacklivesmatter or whatnot. But otherwise there's way too much "look at meeeeee" in activism, definitely.
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Dec 18, 2014 16:53
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Cognac McCarthy posted:E: I am dumb and didn't look at who I was responding to. Obvious sarcasm went over my head, sorry. Hey, have you seen this interview with Morgan Freeman? I'm never sure how to respond to that one, in that the argument doesn't make sense to me and is used as ammunition by racists, but as a white person, I don't think I have any right to say I understand racism better than Morgan Freeman.
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Dec 18, 2014 17:50
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Jurgan posted:Hey, have you seen this interview with Morgan Freeman? The biggest problem with the Morgan Freeman thing is that people on both sides keep taking his quotes out of context to mean "stop talking about racism", rather than "stop making race a primary factor in public discourse". His very next sentence was about no longer referring to people primarily by their race, which gets ignored. Similarly, people neglect that when he said Black History Month is ridiculous, he didn't mean that teaching Black History is ridiculous, but that relegating it to one month is ridiculous - which is literally what he said immediately after. And yet, I've seen people try to claim that Morgan Freeman said to stop teaching Black History and to stop talking about racism, so we should (do that / call Freeman an Uncle Tom). gently caress, there's an article I read about the whole thing that calls him misguided for the "stop talking about racism" soundbite...and repeatedly refers to him as a "notable black actor" or somesuch (I can't find the article right now, it was a while ago). The very thing he was actually trying to say was the problem to begin with.
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Dec 18, 2014 18:24
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The weirdest thing with the Morgan Freeman is that it spawned a bunch of lovely fake Facebook and twitter accounts as well as fake image macros attributing dogwhistle racist quotes to him and people ate it up.
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Dec 18, 2014 18:40
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Not the thread I thought I was going to find that Brit Bennett article in, but what do you know. You might actually read the comments on that piece, some are good: quote:This has given me all the feels. I am struggling not to cut all of the white people out of my life (kind of hard, given I'm married to a white man) and many of those people are "good white people." They are shocked at racism and racist behavior— so much so they I get links to racist posts on websites because they can't believe how awful white people can be. They then can't understand why I am loving upset about seeing such triggering imagery. I live racism. I wake up to it. I deal with the micro-aggressions, the shock at my "articulate" speech, tacit approval that I've named my children "normal" names. I live with my "good white friends" never speaking about their white privilege or race in general. I'll get post after post about saving this animal or this bit of forest, but I get "Chitlins, ALL LIVES MATTER" when I post about Black Lives Matter.
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Dec 18, 2014 18:45
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VitalSigns posted:Perhaps this sounds like I'm, as a white person, making it all about me again, but since the subject of the article is white people it seems like a reasonable follow-up question. Is there a related "White people: this is what you should do" article so I can read it and go do that? If this is a serious question, I found this article from The Well Examined Life to be an interesting, enlightening read. Particularly pertinent to this discussion is this bit towards the end here: aarongoggans posted:This piece is just to say, that if you are white and you find yourself at a march for racial justice surrounded by white people: something is wrong. I understand the inclination to be surrounded by your own, just remember that you have the luxury of being surrounded by your own every moment of every day. POC have to seek out. Did you see the movie Dear White People? One of the major plot points of that movie is the decision of the college to integrate a historically Black dorm (because racism is over, don't'cha know), and the movie stresses the point that all this does is isolate the black students among other groups and cliques of friends, who then proceed to otherize them as their Token Black Friend. Yes, integration is good, integration is right, integration is the main goal, but... forming groups of like minded people is kinda how humanity works. Nothing ever got done in history without a large group of like-minded people got together and demanded it; that's why the freedom of assembly is in our bill of rights at number one. To take that away from anybody because we fear what will happen, or are just pissy that we are being left out, well, that's tyranny, even if we have the best of intentions. So the lesson here is: if you want to help out, help out, but do it in a way that doesn't impose yourself unduly. It's easier than you think; I went with my church to the ACLU March Against Police Violence in DC last weekend, and I was certainly not unwelcome there.
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Dec 18, 2014 19:11
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A simple take-away is that you can still be racist despite having good intentions, without realizing, without hating people of other races.
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Dec 18, 2014 19:39
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Zeitgueist posted:A simple take-away is that you can still be racist despite having good intentions, without realizing, without hating people of other races. Preference for race has been shown in studies to be an inherent even in young children and this can develop into stereotyping that persists through life. Even I am guilty of showing racial preference but at least I acknowledge that what I'm doing is wrong and try to correct my behavior. What needs to be taught is recognizing those moments of racial bias and to consciously go against your preferences so that people approach things like some people approached the original Cosby Show - Dr. Huxtable wasn't a black doctor where his race defined him as a doctor. He was a doctor that happens to be black. Zeitgueist posted:Not the thread I thought I was going to find that Brit Bennett article in, but what do you know. While I agree that some comments can be enlightening, the majority are either trolls, misguided people, or people putting their smug satisfaction on display from both sides of the racial aisle when it comes to highlighting systemic racism. For every white person that says, "I saw some racism and I took a stand against it! YAY ME!" there's a POC saying, "Oh, you took a stand against racism? You sound pretty smug for someone who had nothing to lose." I feel for a lot of white people who don't know how to approach how to be an ally/supporter when there is this indolent rage coming from minority communities that can turn into a culture of victimization without any solutions being offered. And yet the best I can suggest is to support equality where you can, highlight racism when you see it, and don't take it personally when someone says, "well you aren't one of us." From a black person, I welcome your support and even though emotions run a spectrum any help is warranted especially when the 'system' doesn't acknowledge your complaints and you're too few to effect change.
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Dec 18, 2014 20:02
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ZorajitZorajit posted:Tangential, but I don't know what to make of this: My takeaway was that you could remove almost all instances of the words black and white from it and it would still make sense. The act of framing things in the context of race is discussed a lot in the article, I'd call it the point of the article but I'm not sure if it has a singular point, and what I mostly get from it is that the author finds it exhausting to do and annoying when people complain at her for it. I'd probably agree, honestly. Trying to puzzle out everyone's motivations is exhausting and it's entirely true that for the most part, nobody gives a poo poo about yours unless you say something that pegs their radar and they start whining at you about it. I would question whether that sort of analysis is really necessary though? Presumably you have a good idea of the world you want to live in, and there's stuff you can be doing to make the world you do live in more like the one in your head, so go to it if that's what you think is important. Does it matter so much why someone is a dick? There are appropriate reactions to that even without the understanding of why. I dunno, I always figured crusading for the world you want is what everybody should do, if they want to crusade for stuff at all. Take solace in knowing you're doing what, to the best of your understanding, is right, and maybe you'll even get somewhere in the process. That would seem like a solution to both people latching on to causes for superficial ego boosts, and people feeling bad because other people whinge about the way they go about their fight. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Dec 18, 2014 |
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Dec 18, 2014 21:42
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 Never mind that this has little to do with US production and more to do with total global production, supply and demand. It's all because of fracking and Obama is a dumb pee pee doo doo head. 
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Dec 19, 2014 07:29
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KiteAuraan posted:
Now is the time to get into the lucrative terrorist-repelling rock market.
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Dec 19, 2014 07:56
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KiteAuraan posted:
If you see someone post that, use this. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/12/17/why-gasoline-prices-will-stay-low-explained-in-under-2-minutes/ If they can't take two minutes out of their life to actually understand why it's happening then gently caress em.
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Dec 19, 2014 11:11
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OKiteAuraan posted:
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Dec 19, 2014 11:14
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At least the caption under the image is a completely accurate description.
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Dec 19, 2014 11:20
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 Of course cars, dogs, hammers and football aren't health issues!
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Dec 19, 2014 13:14
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KiteAuraan posted:
Funny thing is, I'm sure that the person who posted that also supports building the Keystone XL southern extension, which will relieve the glut of oil in the middle of the country and lead to higher prices.
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Dec 19, 2014 13:33
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gradenko_2000 posted:
It's funny too because football has been receiving a ton of scrutiny due to research into CTE over the last decade or so. Studies that I'm sure had a government grant or two.
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Dec 19, 2014 13:38
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Boywhiz88 posted:It's funny too because football has been receiving a ton of scrutiny due to research into CTE over the last decade or so. Studies that I'm sure had a government grant or two. Exhaust particulates, crash safety and obesity studies with cars as well. I mean it's highly likely there's been a study on redesigning hand tools to lower accident severity.
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Dec 19, 2014 14:34
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Total Meatlove posted:Exhaust particulates, crash safety and obesity studies with cars as well. And wasn't there a recent study about how cats literally infect your brain with something?
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Dec 19, 2014 15:04
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Scruff McGruff posted:And wasn't there a recent study about how cats literally infect your brain with something? We also know that it causes behavioral changes in rats, making them less risk averse, and there have been a lot of pop-sci articles about how it does the same in humans, making women sexier and men more rugged or something, but that all reads like  to me.
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Dec 19, 2014 15:08
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Cats always have some poo poo like that going on, so I wouldn't put it past them to pull something like this, too. They can revert to feral status so quickly that I think they must be just biding their time until they to take out humanity in one fell swoop.
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Dec 19, 2014 15:30
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KiteAuraan posted:
That's funny, I could have sworn that a few years ago the president was in direct control of gas prices.
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