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Cease to Hope posted:the awaken spell doesn't say anything about granting weapon proficiencies Complicated and problem spells in Pathfinder now have pages of officially printed rulings. I think that one's in Ultimate Campaign.
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Sep 8, 2017 05:37
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senrath posted:That's because in Pathfinder awakened animals (animals affected by the Awaken spell or similar) are explicitly different from intelligent animals (animals that have their intelligence raised to 3+ any other way). The former can use weapons, the latter cannot. I am not where you found that; in the 'magic items for non-humanoids' charts apes are listed as having every slot available and the ability to grasp, which allows them to hold and use items in their hands; though non-proficiency applies, I can't find anything that says they don't qualify to take it. Intelligent ape animal companions certainly can, because 'Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can select any feat they are physically capable of using.' (Animal companions with an intelligence of 2 or lower can only select from a certain subset; it works the same way as skills, where 'dumb' animal companions can choose from a list of animal-like skills like Climb and such but 3+ can pick any skill.) Also, and more importantly, intelligent gorillas using giant weapons is cool and I stand by that.  Plus they keep putting weapons in their art.Awaken is a really complicated spell they keep feeling the need to patch, though, no argument there. Prism fucked around with this message at 06:42 on Sep 8, 2017 |
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Sep 8, 2017 06:37
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From Ultimate Campaign, page 143:quote:Intelligent Animals
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Sep 8, 2017 07:14
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Important question, do apes have two hands or four?
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Sep 8, 2017 13:04
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gradenko_2000 posted:From Ultimate Campaign, page 143: Huh. Well, I guess that's that. Rockopolis posted:Important question, do apes have two hands or four? Officially, two, and two feet. They can wear magic boots.
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Sep 8, 2017 14:45
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gradenko_2000 posted:From Ultimate Campaign, page 143: that doesn't say that they are proficient with them, and strongly implies that they are not
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Sep 8, 2017 14:47
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Cease to Hope posted:that doesn't say that they are proficient with them, and strongly implies that they are not I'll grant that, but the distinction that's being made is whether an Awakened animal can ever learn and make use of weapon proficiencies, versus a 3+ Int animal that got there via other means. There's probably an entire other discussion to be had about how an Awakened animal can get there - they'd need to level up after being awakened to get the feat.
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Sep 8, 2017 14:53
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Also, the quote says a non-awakened intelligent animal is not COMFORTABLE using a weapon, even with proficiency. This implies two things: 1) They can learn Proficiency after all 2) They can still use weapons they are proficient with, your DM just has to frown at you and say your animal buddy isn't comfortable Yay natural language!
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Sep 8, 2017 16:04
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Just keep hunting oozes and otyughs until your wolf starts to consider the sword.
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Sep 8, 2017 16:19
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Kaza42 posted:Also, the quote says a non-awakened intelligent animal is not COMFORTABLE using a weapon, even with proficiency. This implies two things: The whole section that Gradenko is quoting is part of is a larger discussion about GM-player control over companions and that they won't do unnatural things to them. So no, your intelligent animal won't fight with a weapon.
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Sep 8, 2017 16:24
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But that axe was passed down by generations of horses before him
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Sep 8, 2017 16:28
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Poor ol' Freckles, brought an axe and died
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Sep 8, 2017 16:35
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Rigged Death Trap posted:At will: That's because the vast majority of people are more comfortable with natural language.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:23
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Natural language is also much more useful for Murphies because of the gap between ROW and ROI, so if there wasn't enough of it, we probably wouldn't have this spectacular thread.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:28
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John Lee posted:That's because the vast majority of people are more comfortable with natural language.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:43
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Pretty sure that if you put a sharp thing on a warhorse's feet, it would happily kick people with them. Well, angrily. Warhorses and all.
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Sep 8, 2017 19:09
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Oh they definitely would. What's happened here is that someone at Paizo decided that animal companions shouldn't be allowed to use weapons, ever. But instead of just outright saying "Animal companions can never be trained to use weapons because we think it's too strong if they do" or whatever, they come up with a stupid reason that's not even accurate. Humans have trained animals to do things they're naturally uncomfortable with ever since we started training animals, and there's even an explicitly allowed form of training an animal to do something it's uncomfortable with in Pathfinder core: training an animal to attack things like undead and aberrations. This is just another example along the lines of "Wanting crossbows to be a viable option for combat is like wanting water balloons to be a viable option for combat" and "Weapon cords can't be a swift action because I tied a mouse to my hand and spent the afternoon trying to catch it."
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Sep 8, 2017 19:58
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Not to mention that chimpanzees in particular have been seen not only using, but making weapons in the wild. I'm sure they felt very uncomfortable with such an unnatural act, though, and would much rather be using their slam attack.
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Sep 8, 2017 20:14
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senrath posted:This is just another example along the lines of "Wanting crossbows to be a viable option for combat is like wanting water balloons to be a viable option for combat" Isn't one of the original Murphys that darts were extremely viable? Edit: it's literally the first post in the thread.
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Sep 8, 2017 20:43
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Side note: RL crossbows were loving terrifying during their contemporary periods. They were easy to use, could often punch directly through armor, and had nearly as much range as a good bow. The main problem is they were hell to reload.
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Sep 8, 2017 20:51
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megane posted:Not to mention that chimpanzees in particular have been seen not only using, but making weapons in the wild. I'm sure they felt very uncomfortable with such an unnatural act, though, and would much rather be using their slam attack. I felt very uncomfortable when I fired a gun so clearly firearms proficiency doesn't exist. Actually, here's a related Murphy, arguably: anyone in Pathfinder who knows how to fire a pistol also knows how to operate any sort of cannon, a firedrake (really big flamethrowers; fires a 60' line or 30' cone of flame), a firewyrm (bigger firedrake, double its ranges), and a bombard as a crew leader. Siege weapons are their own exotic weapon proficiencies, plus there's a Siege Engineer feat that gives you all of them plus the ability to avoid mishaps when working as the firing crew leader. Firearms are also an exotic weapon proficiency, though at least you get all of them at once. And it means all of them; a creature that is proficient in firearms is also automatically proficient in all siege firearms, though not other siege weapons like a ballista. In most campaigns, I imagine this is the only reason any PC will be proficient with siege weapons at all. There's no equivalent for getting (for example) ballistas via heavy crossbow proficiency, of course. The stupid rule is that this means that the exotic weapon proficiencies for (any type of) cannon, bombard and firewyrm/firedrake are completely pointless, because you can just take EWP: Firearms and get all of them with the single prerequisite of +1 base attack bonus. On top of that, the only way to get proficiency in all of the non-firearm siege weapons at once is through Siege Engineer, which requires you to be at least level 5 since it requires 5 ranks in Knowledge: Engineering or Profession: Siege Engineer. It also requires you to have bought individual proficiency in one siege engine. Edit: Also, there is a second category of handheld firearms that require its own proficiency category: heavy weapons, like rocket launchers and rail guns. This is relevant in Numeria, which has crashed spaceships in it and thus tech loot, like the old Barrier Peaks. So EWP: Firearms gets you the smaller, handheld firearms, and the really big siege firearms, but not the ones in between. The distinguishing feature is not futuristic firearms either; regular EWP: Firearms will get you using laser rifles just fine. Prism fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Sep 8, 2017 |
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Sep 8, 2017 21:02
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Mors Rattus posted:Side note: RL crossbows were loving terrifying during their contemporary periods. They were easy to use, could often punch directly through armor, and had nearly as much range as a good bow. The main problem is they were hell to reload. Oh yeah, a crossbow quarrel is going to be much more powerful and accurate than most any normal arrow, especially in armor penetration. Their use is also a lot easier and less demanding- archers can take years to train, often from a very young age, whereas any random conscript can be trained to use a crossbow with relatively minimal time. As with firearms, ease of use is the crossbow's primary benefit to the military- in fact, their status is often identical to firearms for legal purposes.
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Sep 8, 2017 21:10
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 Sorry, your companion will never feel comfortable holding a pointy stick. Not allowed.
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Sep 8, 2017 21:25
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Heffer posted:
Amateur
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Sep 8, 2017 21:29
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Prism posted:I felt very uncomfortable when I fired a gun so clearly firearms proficiency doesn't exist. To clarify, there are archetypes that only give specific firearm proficiencies instead of the entire thing, but the rest is accurate.
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Sep 8, 2017 21:37
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Zomborgon posted:Oh yeah, a crossbow quarrel is going to be much more powerful and accurate than most any normal arrow, especially in armor penetration. Their use is also a lot easier and less demanding- archers can take years to train, often from a very young age, whereas any random conscript can be trained to use a crossbow with relatively minimal time. As with firearms, ease of use is the crossbow's primary benefit to the military- in fact, their status is often identical to firearms for legal purposes. Now I really want to train my chihuahua to shoot a crossbow, just to disprove those dumb edge cases.
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Sep 8, 2017 22:25
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Wait, who was saying crossbows weren't viable in combat and why? This is inexplicable.
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Sep 8, 2017 22:28
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they're really bad in 3e and PF compared to bows.
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Sep 8, 2017 22:29
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I'm in a 2nd edition AD&D campaign and my wizard just looted an immovable rod. What kind of Murphy shenanigans can I get into with it? I only have the one so I can't do any of the crazy ladder stuff.
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Sep 8, 2017 22:31
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Ratoslov posted:Wait, who was saying crossbows weren't viable in combat and why? This is inexplicable. sean k. reynolds
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Sep 8, 2017 22:31
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Your Gay Uncle posted:I'm in a 2nd edition AD&D campaign and my wizard just looted an immovable rod. What kind of Murphy shenanigans can I get into with it? I only have the one so I can't do any of the crazy ladder stuff. Use it against the Running of the Bulls.
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Sep 8, 2017 22:33
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Man, he seems like a turd.
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Sep 8, 2017 22:46
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senrath posted:To clarify, there are archetypes that only give specific firearm proficiencies instead of the entire thing, but the rest is accurate. That's true. I didn't think of that because generally it's all or nothing (either because you picked EWP: Firearms or because you are most gunslingers), but pistoleros and musket masters do exist and there's probably archetypes in a different class I didn't think of. Prism fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Sep 8, 2017 |
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Sep 8, 2017 23:37
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AKA The Ultra 
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Sep 8, 2017 23:41
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Your Gay Uncle posted:I'm in a 2nd edition AD&D campaign and my wizard just looted an immovable rod. What kind of Murphy shenanigans can I get into with it? I only have the one so I can't do any of the crazy ladder stuff. gently caress with your GM by pointing out the weird nature of 'immovability' when dealing with relative motion. I mean, I think it'd count as a decent projectile slamming into something at 30 km/sec. Of course, aiming it would be a bit of a bitch. I don''t think the 2nd edition version has any caveats about weight or strength, so using it in combination with sovereign glue can straight up end the tarrasque. I'm sure there are other concepts.
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Sep 9, 2017 02:01
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Also, sure you can ladder. Push up with your arms, disengage, then lift your arms. It'd be exhausting, but as long as you stopped it higher than when you pushed off, you'd have gained height.
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Sep 9, 2017 02:16
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PMush Perfect posted:Also, sure you can ladder. Push up with your arms, disengage, then lift your arms. It'd be exhausting, but as long as you stopped it higher than when you pushed off, you'd have gained height. I tested this out in my back yard by holding myself up on a metal bar suspended across some cinder blocks and then trying to see if I could lift it up faster than I fell. Obviously impossible as evidenced by me breaking my spine. (To be honest, it'd be equivalent though. Hold yourself up on anything and try to lift your hands up faster than gravity pulls you down. It's tricky.
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Sep 9, 2017 02:35
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I can do it with my feet just fine, it's called "jumping".
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Sep 9, 2017 02:40
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Your Gay Uncle posted:I'm in a 2nd edition AD&D campaign and my wizard just looted an immovable rod. What kind of Murphy shenanigans can I get into with it? I only have the one so I can't do any of the crazy ladder stuff. I had a Wiz for a while the used one strapped to the back of a tower shield, spent the first turn setting it up then spend the rest of combat behind good cover. I've also heard of them being modified into siege crossbow "bolts", have your backliner shoot it into the greebly monster then shout the command word (Then watch your GM go crosseyed when the big bad cant move).
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Sep 9, 2017 02:44
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:I tested this out in my back yard by holding myself up on a metal bar suspended across some cinder blocks and then trying to see if I could lift it up faster than I fell. No, you're just a weak pasty nerd. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IPGqgmS981E
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Sep 9, 2017 02:48
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