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Nov 18, 2013 19:40
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| # ? Jun 13, 2024 13:23 |
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For a sub set J of the set of phrases P, J is also known as "jokes",
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Nov 18, 2013 19:58
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can we go back to the part where that phone screen is dumb and frontenddev.txt
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Nov 18, 2013 20:14
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Standing up while on the phone is fine advice. Questioning what could possibly constitute a phone screen besides writing code in a collaborative editor is fertile ground.
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Nov 18, 2013 20:22
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FamDav posted:can we go back to the part where that phone screen is dumb and frontenddev.txt What's dumb about it, if you don't mind me asking? I'm always open to suggestions.
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Nov 18, 2013 20:52
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hedgecore posted:What's dumb about it, if you don't mind me asking? You dont actually have them write a single line of code, and instead quiz them on facts which you would expect someone who is quick on their feet to pick up quickly. You then say you look at code samples that you're realllly sure you can tell weren't munged together from outside sources. If you want someone who is able to do at least the basics and is able to learn quickly on their feet, give them a project and have them do it. Since I imagine most of these people are college grads/unemployeds/poors looking for work they shouldn't scoff at you giving them homework because dolla dolla bills yall. A lot of your questions are "culture fit" questions that really just reinforce what you want to hear. Your implication that certain (very arbitrary) answers are great answers and that other answers aren't as good means you want people who really like the things you like.
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Nov 18, 2013 22:02
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FamDav posted:If you want someone who is able to do at least the basics and is able to learn quickly on their feet, give them a project and have them do it. Since I imagine most of these people are college grads/unemployeds/poors looking for work they shouldn't scoff at you giving them homework because dolla dolla bills yall. What kind of project are you talking about here? I've had someone try and have me complete something for an "interview" that was pretty obviously just their trying to get a small project done for free, and I would be super hesitant to do a substantive project for an interview.
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Nov 19, 2013 01:45
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EAT THE EGGS RICOLA posted:What kind of project are you talking about here? I've had someone try and have me complete something for an "interview" that was pretty obviously just their trying to get a small project done for free, and I would be super hesitant to do a substantive project for an interview. Don Mega fucked around with this message at 01:58 on Nov 19, 2013 |
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Nov 19, 2013 01:50
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Don Mega posted:I had to create minesweeper in html+javascript. It was fun and did not take very long to accomplish. That would be fine. The one I got was a hilariously obvious "hey copy this site's exact layout"-type of thing.
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Nov 19, 2013 01:57
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What's wrong with caring about culture fit? Isn't that pretty normal for places that don't treat each employee like a beep boop code dispenser? I guess it's personal preference but it isn't like there's a shortage of places that are happy to not care about you beyond your coding abilities.
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Nov 19, 2013 02:03
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HondaCivet posted:What's wrong with caring about culture fit? Isn't that pretty normal for places that don't treat each employee like a beep boop code dispenser? I guess it's personal preference but it isn't like there's a shortage of places that are happy to not care about you beyond your coding abilities. There's a lot of good advice in this thread. But the best advice when reading this thread is to keep in mind that you're reading advice from people who post on The Something Awful Forums.
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Nov 19, 2013 02:15
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One of the big things I learned when I was trying to find a job was that for every person who gives you advice on your resume or how to interview there's always someone else who will tell you the exact opposite.
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Nov 19, 2013 02:20
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HondaCivet posted:What's wrong with caring about culture fit? Isn't that pretty normal for places that don't treat each employee like a beep boop code dispenser? I guess it's personal preference but it isn't like there's a shortage of places that are happy to not care about you beyond your coding abilities. There's culture fit and then there is "culture fit". Culture fit is wanting somebody who is self-directed or likes to tinker with new technology. "Culture fit" is expecting somebody to give specific answers to relatively subjective questions.
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Nov 19, 2013 02:26
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piratepilates posted:One of the big things I learned when I was trying to find a job was that for every person who gives you advice on your resume or how to interview there's always someone else who will tell you the exact opposite. People should have to qualify their advice with things like "I have extensive hiring experience, so this is the way it actually works" vs "I read this once on the blog of someone who's interviewed once in his life". Especially for advice like "brazenly lie about your salary history, no I don't actually know what information is included in a background check".
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Nov 19, 2013 02:31
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Edly posted:People should have to qualify their advice with things like "I have extensive hiring experience, so this is the way it actually works" vs "I read this once on the blog of someone who's interviewed once in his life". Many of the posters in this thread routinely interview or hire people. Edly posted:Especially for advice like "brazenly lie about your salary history, no I don't actually know what information is included in a background check". These are not at all incompatible. By the time a background check is happening, you've already been hired, and they just want to know you're not a con artist / multiple felon / south american dictator on the lam. You can get away with brazenly lying about your salary. It's not necessarily a good negotiating tactic, but you will almost certainly get away with it. This is true of pretty much all the lies you might be tempted to tell in a business context: you might get away with it, but it was probably still a bad idea.
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Nov 19, 2013 02:41
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FamDav posted:There's culture fit and then there is "culture fit". I read "culture fit" as "we prefer to hire 20-something white males who went to similar universities to our founders." It's a dog whistle blown at 80 dB.
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Nov 19, 2013 02:44
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I think "dumb" is an oversimplification. I do see where you're coming from (considering the limited context I provided), but I didn't find it necessary in order to summarize my strategy on conducting a phone screen. I think you misinterpreted what I meant by "good answer". Those are just examples of good answers in my mind. It's not the one right answer. It's not the specific answer I am looking to accept in order to bring you in for the next step. Aside from the basics, those questions have a multitude of good answers. I listed them because I figured someone here might see that question and go "hm, what kind of response would be appropriate to that question?". And I don't think you get the best out of someone by having them live code over the phone with you. But piratepilates is right - I'm just offering one perspective. I can assure you that I see code before I bring anyone in for an interview.
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Nov 19, 2013 03:36
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:I read "culture fit" as "we prefer to hire 20-something white males who went to similar universities to our founders." As far as I can tell all the entry-mid level programming jobs go to india nowadays. I don't see very many other white male "millennial" programmers.
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Nov 19, 2013 03:50
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:I read "culture fit" as "we prefer to hire 20-something white males who went to similar universities to our founders." I read it more as "we prefer to hire single twentysomethings who find our regurgitated reddit/tumblr banter funny and will work from nine to nine in exchange for beer and cheetos", ymmv
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Nov 19, 2013 03:51
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Bruegels Fuckbooks posted:I don't see very many other white male "millennial" programmers. *looks around cafeteria* Yeah I'm gonna have to disagree with you here.
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Nov 19, 2013 04:52
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Bruegels Fuckbooks posted:As far as I can tell all the entry-mid level programming jobs go to india nowadays. I don't see very many other white male "millennial" programmers. What are you poor
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Nov 19, 2013 05:06
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Bruegels Fuckbooks posted:As far as I can tell all the entry-mid level programming jobs go to india nowadays. I don't see very many other white male "millennial" programmers.  I'm not even in the US and every CS grad I know has been hoovered up. Hell, most of the dropouts have been too.
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Nov 19, 2013 08:15
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My impression from my interviewing so far is that the places that care about "culture fit" are tired of hiring sperglords that are lovely to be around and will insist on doing things their way instead of cooperating with the rest of the team, but that's just me interviewing in a single city.
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Nov 19, 2013 09:48
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HondaCivet posted:My impression from my interviewing so far is that the places that care about "culture fit" are tired of hiring sperglords that are lovely to be around and will insist on doing things their way instead of cooperating with the rest of the team, but that's just me interviewing in a single city. Totally ^^^ 'Culture' does not mean the same TV programs, sports teams, etc. It means whether you can work day-in day-out with 4 or 5 other people and not have them wanting the throw you out a window. I used to do tech interviews, and quite a few would pass the tests/questions from me, then get shot down with stuff like 'Can you work with other people' (or more usually 'can you use someone elses library code even if it is not working the way YOU would like'). There are CS graduates who are sure they are gods gift to programming, and anything nor 'perfect' is a pile of poo poo to be derided - even when the author is right there next to you. In the real world, it may have been hacked together for a deadline, or maybe a library supplier 'neglected' to document an important flaw and the mysterious code voodoo happens to work. Or you might smell funny. (Yes, I have interviewed a guy who thought deodorant was a capitalist plot or something. He didn't get hired.)
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Nov 19, 2013 15:40
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OzyMandrill posted:Yes, I have interviewed a guy who thought deodorant was a capitalist plot or something How is teapot doing these days?
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Nov 19, 2013 15:43
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HondaCivet posted:My impression from my interviewing so far is that the places that care about "culture fit" are tired of hiring sperglords that are lovely to be around and will insist on doing things their way instead of cooperating with the rest of the team, but that's just me interviewing in a single city. Yep. I'm remembering one guy who passed the technical parts but was so drat goonie that we wouldn't hire him. He was actually called out in a SA thread and registered an account just to poorly defend himself. (That part had nothing to do with myself or our company just something I discovered when google-stalking.)
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Nov 19, 2013 15:46
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coffeetable posted:
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Nov 19, 2013 18:06
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OzyMandrill posted:'Culture' does not mean the same TV programs, sports teams, etc. Yes, this is basically it. If you can't work well on a team, then you're not going to be hired to work on a collaborative dev team (even if you are a great programmer). And like I clarified above, "culture fit" is most definitely not about answering my questions with my example answers versus any other reasonable answer. Your opinions on tech would really only be a deal breaker if you actually refused to learn/use the technology powering our architecture, in which case you're applying for the wrong job.
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Nov 20, 2013 02:30
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"Doesn't work well on a team" is not something you can reliably interview for or against, and it's not even a good reason not to hire somebody. There are certainly people bad at working on a team at the place I work. That doesn't stop them from being productive. What does stop people from being productive is being bad at programming or bad at making a sustained effort in the "get poo poo done" aspect of the job. You can force anybody who "doesn't work well on a team" to share enough information without much effort, or to get them to improve their team communication. You can't do the same with programming ability. Maybe if they're some excellent C++ programmer interviewer-rapist you'd have a worthy exception. Maybe if you've got a glut of qualified applicants because you pay very high salaries or your standards are very low then you can afford to be choosy. Looking at hedgecore's post you can see it's just a bunch of neuroses about how to throw away perfectly good hiring opportunities. Stuff like this: hedgecore posted:6) If you know what you want in your next position - everything from languages to responsibilities to learning potential to team structure to stability qualifies as a good answer. Not having anything to say here is a bad sign. If you gave me short answers the whole way through, have soooomething for me here. If it sounds like you don't give a drat, well... you won't be coming in for an interview. is absolutely stupid.
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Nov 20, 2013 02:54
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shrughes posted:Looking at hedgecore's post you can see it's just a bunch of neuroses about how to throw away perfectly good hiring opportunities. Stuff like this:
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Nov 20, 2013 05:02
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Cicero posted:Yeah, the CS job market in the US seems really great. It's most obvious in the major tech centers, but the way they pull in people from around the country affects other areas too. In terms of people who get hired, what kind of skillsets do they have? Would there be a way to build them on my own, i.e. outside of school?
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Nov 20, 2013 05:29
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I don't have much practice with the whole resume writing thing, I'd appreciate it if someone could take a look at mine. I'm not sure if I should keep the second half of the description for the second project on there. It's kind of long, but I do like being able to say that I created the program due to existing programs not being good enough. And under education, is it silly to use the word "graduation" when I'm only getting a certificate? My second job on there was a student job that only lasted for the semester, which is why I was only there for two months. Should I put something there to that effect, or is it obvious? Or should I even keep it on the resume in the first place? I don't exactly have much work experience to put on there. Also, cover letters, which I'm even more clueless about : I'm thinking of writing two short paragraphs, one about why I'm applying for [position title] at [company name] because they are so [innovative/cool/whatever] and the other about how my skills relate to what they're looking for. Is that enough? Do I put any introductory stuff at the beginning like my name, phone number and email, or anything at the end?
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Nov 20, 2013 05:34
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Masa posted:I don't have much practice with the whole resume writing thing, I'd appreciate it if someone could take a look at mine. The project descriptions are good. Expand on your jobs a little bit -- put a few bullet points talking about what your job duties entailed and what you accomplished in more specific terms. The term "graduation" might be a bit misleading... It implies that you're getting an associates or bachelor's degree. I'd just say "Completed: December 2013" if the course isn't resulting in an actual degree. For the two month job, it's a coin toss, although I'd lean toward "take it off". Let's break down the pros/cons: + You're short on experience - You were only there two months - It's not directly related to programming For a cover letter, I just sit down and write a letter introducing myself, giving a little bit of my background, and explaining why I think I'd be a good fit for their team. Don't overthink it. Cover letters usually don't matter much, honestly. As for where your contact details go, if you want to be old school, look up a letter template -- return address/contact info in the top left corner. Otherwise, your contact info is on your resume. They're getting that along with the cover letter. Problem solved.
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Nov 20, 2013 05:53
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Hi <company name>, I want to be a software engineer for you guys! (or if filling a specific position: I am applying for the <Position> role at <company name>) <Talk briiefly about previous work exprience> I would appreciate the opportunity to talk to you guys about what you're doing and what I can do to add to your team. I’m interested in learning what <Company Name> will be doing in their future plans. Sincerely, <Your Name>
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Nov 20, 2013 06:01
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shrughes posted:"Doesn't work well on a team" is not something you can reliably interview for or against, and it's not even a good reason not to hire somebody. There are certainly people bad at working on a team at the place I work. That doesn't stop them from being productive. What does stop people from being productive is being bad at programming or bad at making a sustained effort in the "get poo poo done" aspect of the job. You can force anybody who "doesn't work well on a team" to share enough information without much effort, or to get them to improve their team communication. You can't do the same with programming ability. Maybe if they're some excellent C++ programmer interviewer-rapist you'd have a worthy exception. Hey, we've all got attributes. Some of us are personable team players that aren't "rock star programmers," some of us know our pet languages/frameworks front and back but have the personality and body odor of a constipated badger. There's room for all of us in this big crazy world. Masa posted:I don't have much practice with the whole resume writing thing, I'd appreciate it if someone could take a look at mine. I don't like the second half of your second project either. I'd say something more general like "created to improve performance over competing products by 20%" or whatever other impressive things you can say. Save the implementation details for the interview. Yeah "graduation" sounds a bit off, say "Such and Such Certificate Awarded (this date)" or something like that. I'd take the second job off, two months of non-technical work isn't really worth the interviewer's time unless you did something particularly cool while there.
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Nov 20, 2013 06:09
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Good team skills may not matter to you, but they're crucial for our operation, so I find it a relevant trait to consider. It's not quantifiable, but it can still be considered - and most candidates are pretty open with how they feel about working on a team. I get the impression from your post that you don't think I ensure they can write good code before they come in, so I am clarifying we also check for that. A candidate needs to present themselves well enough through the phone screening I outlined AND submit some sort of code for at least two of our developers to review (and approve) before we bring them in - for those with less experience, we have coding challenges for them to complete. We don't bring them in unless we're satisfied with both pieces. Here's the great thing - there are a jillion developer positions available in NYC. It's power to the candidate. If you don't like the way we're set up - that's fine, you have a ton of other options. If you don't want to work with other people, you don't have to. You can find a gig where you just are handed tasks and complete them by a certain deadline. You can work at one of many agencies as the sole developer. You can solely freelance if you want. (None of that is sarcastic.) However, we care about both pieces, so if other people have to force information out of you, you're just not a good fit in our office. (There are also a lot of candidates, so yes, we can afford to be choosy.) I don't really feel a need to say more on that matter. I only detailed one piece of the entire job application puzzle, and from one tech company in a sea of thousands. I'm glad I was able to help some of you, and to those of you who think developer interviews should focus entirely on programming and not at all on people/team skills, I respectfully disagree.
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Nov 20, 2013 06:45
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Strong Sauce posted:Hi <company name>, I usually write a paragraph about what I think about their technologies (good or bad) and then a blurb about how I like to bake pies, preferably peach. I'm using correct punctuation here so you know I'm not kidding.
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Nov 20, 2013 07:23
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hedgecore posted:stuff of course you get tons of front end devs. they're the ones who couldnt get real jobs. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 20, 2013 07:27
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FamDav posted:I usually write a paragraph about what I think about their technologies (good or bad) and then a blurb about how I like to bake pies, preferably peach. That could probably work since most people here have no work experience to fill for that spot anyways.
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Nov 20, 2013 09:10
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Lhet posted:I think asking what somebody is looking for in their next position is a fine question. I mean people fresh out of college might not have a good answer, but if somebody with a few years of experience doesn't have an answer that might be a bit of a warning flag. No it's just a good way to randomly select good developers and reject them for bullshit pop-psychology reasons. It might not matter if your hiring bar is low enough that you find there's plenty of qualified applicants in NYC.
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Nov 20, 2013 13:26
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