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UFO Defense did admittedly do a better job at FF since one of the morale failure events was going berserk. When a soldier went berserk, he would spin around toward a random target he could see and shoot a random number of bullets at it, before spinning to another target he could see and shooting more random bullets at that one. This process repeated until the soldier was out of TUs. This is definitely more immersive for a number of reasons, but by the same token you also don't have your designated Heavy shooting off a rocket launcher in the middle of a friendly formation, killing 5 soldiers in one panic event. The worst that happens in an EU panic event is you lose 1 guy. Yes, I get it that 1 soldier in EU is a bigger deal than in UFO, but it still doesn't even come CLOSE to the chaos that a panic wave could sow in UFO. Not even CLOSE.
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Sep 12, 2013 18:40
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Ravenfood posted:Hell, panic would be even less infuriating/more hilarious if they changed the animation, gave them significant miss chances/made them do half damage if they hit, and gave them like 2-4 attacks on things they can see. Just spraying fire everywhere. I don't know what snipers do here (maybe they fall back a lot), but anything with automatic fire would look a lot better just spraying their gun everywhere. Hell, let them shoot at corners/cover too. So most of the time, the effect of panic is that they have an empty gun, but sometimes they'll fry cover, hurt an alien, hurt a friend, and totally rarely, they'll crit every single chryssalid on screen in the face. Or the VIP and highest three squadmembers on your team. Who knows! Some friendly fire would be ok, but not as the most likely reaction when panicking. Shot a wall once in a while if you have to panic fire. Coolguye posted:This is definitely more immersive for a number of reasons, but by the same token you also don't have your designated Heavy shooting off a rocket launcher in the middle of a friendly formation, killing 5 soldiers in one panic event. The worst that happens in an EU panic event is you lose 1 guy. Yes, I get it that 1 soldier in EU is a bigger deal than in UFO, but it still doesn't even come CLOSE to the chaos that a panic wave could sow in UFO. Not even CLOSE. No at higher difficulties it chains and you can wipe five guys at once.
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Sep 12, 2013 18:53
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Coolguye posted:PANIC But yeah, I do think they could have/can do panic events better in EU. I don't think they'll change anything, but they could.
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Sep 12, 2013 19:03
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Veyrall posted:Definitely a valid set of points, but it does bear thinking about that in EU, you're hard-locked to six dudes. Losing a full 1/6th of your entire force is a setback, but even moreso when you have so few to begin with. It's kinda like losing a finger. Sure, it's just one finger, but you lose something like 40% of your manual dexterity. I think. I can't remember the exact number. Maybe I've just been lucky but so far on my classic run I've lost only 2 or 3 troops to friendly fire. Most panic events will be either random fire on the enemy, which works out well most of the time. Or occasionally they'll break cover to run away but run out of moves and be left in the open uncovered. Or lately they've just hunkered down and lost a turn.
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Sep 12, 2013 19:35
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hhhmmm posted:No at higher difficulties it chains and you can wipe five guys at once. In UFO, you could lose half your squad to a SINGLE panic event. ONE soldier panicking. It didn't even need to be a dude with a rocket launcher. The berserk soldier just needed to have an auto-fire weapon and be close to a knot of other soldiers. Veyrall posted:Definitely a valid set of points, but it does bear thinking about that in EU, you're hard-locked to six dudes. And all of this could happen on the BEGINNER difficulty, very easily. Could panic events in EU be done better? You bet your rear end they could. Should there be different possibilities for panic events based on difficulty? Absolutely! Perhaps on Easy friendly fire is just disabled totally, and on Normal it's half as likely when compared to anything else. But anyone saying it's un-intuitive or a bad addition is silly, and if you complain it's too harsh by its mere existence you come off as a huge whiner.
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Sep 12, 2013 20:25
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Coolguye posted:No, it is not going to kill 5 people. Even if every shot fired is a kill shot, and every single person on your team panics, the worst death toll you can have is 3. You're bad at counting. Since panicked guys can be targeted after doing their kill shot, the maximum possible is 5. Coolguye posted:It still doesn't even remotely compare to UFO. And you could only select four guys at a time in warcraft 1. It's not relevant to the discussion.
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Sep 12, 2013 20:36
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hhhmmm posted:You're bad at counting. Since panicked guys can be targeted after doing their kill shot, the maximum possible is 5. quote:And you could only select four guys at a time in warcraft 1. It's not relevant to the discussion. Compared to UFO and TFTD the chances of a panic wave causing a total wipe are TINY. And let's not forget that a total wipe in this game means you just need to replace your soldiers. In UFO, if you totally wiped, you'd have to replace your Skyranger as well. If you're really that pissed off about a psychological component to your games then I'd recommend you either find/make a mod that disables panic completely or just suggest that this isn't the game for you. Panic throwing a monkey wrench into your tactical plans is a huge part of the XCOM experience and has been since the beginning. And if anything the monkey wrenches have become a 1/8" crescent wrench in the latest game.
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Sep 12, 2013 20:48
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Coolguye posted:Yeah I forgot that, so you are correct in theory. That doesn't change that the chances of this happening are so low that I'd happily take 10% shots on aliens before I banked on this happening. 
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Sep 12, 2013 20:50
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zylche posted:drat which alien shot at you If it was the aliens shooting at me I wouldn't be so pissed off god dammit rookie at least stop using auto shots 
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Sep 12, 2013 20:55
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I like panic, adds a random element into the game that makes it interesting. Hearing my guy panic and then crossing my fingers he fires back or at least hunkers down, but then watching as he pisses his pants and runs right into three mutons in overwatch is kind of funny. Do friendly kills count as experience? Could you level a guy on FF kills? This is important, I need to know!
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Sep 12, 2013 21:27
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Burning_Monk posted:I like panic, adds a random element into the game that makes it interesting. I like it too nine times out of ten. It's just when I get a situation last night where half of my squad died (one from friendly fire, one from running out into the middle of the street and being as good ad dead) to a single thinman who's only action was landing next to two people and poisoning them that they get infuriating. Hilariously infuriating, but still infuriating. I think it could have been designed a bit better (Honestly, having the enemies actually do friendly fire during a panic would fix a lot in my mind) but as-is, it's really not that bad.
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Sep 12, 2013 22:09
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I just had a guy panic and hunker down behind a burning car.
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Sep 12, 2013 22:47
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Benagain posted:I just had a guy panic and hunker down behind a burning car.
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Sep 12, 2013 22:49
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God I fucking love Diablo 3 gold, it even paid for this shitty title
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misguided rage posted:God I hate that so much. The only thing worse is when the VIP gets poisoned and panics, causing another soldier to panic, who then shoots the VIP in the face. Yeah but if it was that weasel traitor guy who's trying to lawyer up, he totally deserves to be shot in the face.
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Sep 12, 2013 22:59
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He died in my second slingshot mission, and I was AOK with that, if for no other reason then I couldn't change the color of his armor. And then my squad wiped in the battleship and all I had was rookies.
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Sep 12, 2013 23:02
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I just hope the new maps don't fall into the "complexity=better!" route that TFTD and the maps ended up being labyrinthine clusterfucks.
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Sep 12, 2013 23:03
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FISHMANPET posted:He died in my second slingshot mission, and I was AOK with that, if for no other reason then I couldn't change the color of his armor. Haha, I think he's talking about the actual civilian VIP you have to pick up in one of your council missions. Not the Triad defector, Zhang.
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Sep 12, 2013 23:04
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jng2058 posted:Yeah but if it was that weasel traitor guy who's trying to lawyer up, he totally deserves to be shot in the face. I loved it the time I got that guy and the mission was in China. "I HAVE RIGHTS!" "...here? No, you really don't, man."
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Sep 12, 2013 23:04
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FISHMANPET posted:He died in my second slingshot mission, and I was AOK with that, if for no other reason then I couldn't change the color of his armor. It is annoying that you can't customize him at all. Zhang died very early in my first game, but he's been one of my star players in my last run.
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Sep 12, 2013 23:08
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Burning_Monk posted:It is annoying that you can't customize him at all. Zhang died very early in my first game, but he's been one of my star players in my last run. There's a mod for that, you'll need ToolBoks to apply it, but it's totally worth it to be able to put that beret with sunglasses on Zhang. Also I got my loving mod to work! I'm still tinkering with it, but it does the thing it's supposed to do!
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Sep 12, 2013 23:22
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Coolguye posted:Things about the panic system In the original, the xenos had to contend with morale problems as well. Judging from the "THEY'RE FALLING BACK YEEHAW GET EM" sound files that play all the time, it seems like this was intended and cut from EU like so many other features. For every argument made about how bad the original panic effects could be (they almost always just dropped their weapon and/or lost their turn), they could happen to your enemies as well! That is not the case in EU. Also having veterans in your squad in the original would boost the morale of the whole team, in EU it just means rookies will turn and murder your vets. On a side note, long war kind of alleviates this by making your troops run for cover from whatever scared them and hunker down when they panic. The system is still the same but at least your skyranger pilot doesn't have to constantly watch your highly crack teams of mental patients crack and murder each other. Why yes I did feel the need to write this after watching a squad wipe itself when an alien *missed* a shot at a rookie. As much as the current panic system could be done better - if it affected aliens (and psi panic was useful) it would actually be a rather fun addition to the game. The ethereals in the temple ship even go so far as to say sectoids are hilariously cowardly. I would love to see that as an actual implemented mechanic.
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Sep 12, 2013 23:27
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^ You can get them to fall back if you murder enough of them in a short enough time. Just last night I aggro'd a group of 3 mutons, killed two, and even though the third was in full cover and had a decent shot on my guys it triggered the "They're falling back!" soundbite and he started running. Might not happen on impossible, though.
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Sep 12, 2013 23:38
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Carnalfex posted:In the original, the xenos had to contend with morale problems as well. Strictly speaking this is true, but realistically the only missions there were enough aliens to kill in order to naturally induce panic were alien base missions - and that's still only true if you kill the Alien Commander on site. Kill, not stun. Considering 90% of the reason to attack a base in the first place is to bag a Commander this is EXCEEDINGLY unlikely to happen even on low difficulty levels, loving forget it if it's on Superhuman. You can psi-panic them though, but that's still like 1/10th of the problem your soldiers encounter because there's usually more aliens than XCOM present and their panic does not have a tendency to spread. And truthfully, if you are rolling with a powerful enough psychic to efficiently panic an alien, you'd really be better off just MCing him and having him throw his gun, shoot his ally, or throw a grenade at his feet without hoping the panic system would roll up something fun. Also, panic shouldn't calculate in EU unless someone took damage. Are you sure a rookie didn't panic from watching an ally get shot? ParanoidInc posted:^ You can get them to fall back if you murder enough of them in a short enough time. Just last night I aggro'd a group of 3 mutons, killed two, and even though the third was in full cover and had a decent shot on my guys it triggered the "They're falling back!" soundbite and he started running. Might not happen on impossible, though.
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Sep 12, 2013 23:47
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They're falling back, advance! *alien goes into overwatch*
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Sep 13, 2013 00:36
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Deuce posted:They're falling back, advance! Or shoots a rookie dead in one hit.
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Sep 13, 2013 01:10
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amuayse posted:I just hope the new maps don't fall into the "complexity=better!" route that TFTD and the maps ended up being labyrinthine clusterfucks. I'm fairly certain the devs aren't going to try taking any design lessons from TFTD. Although I would love a potential sequel/expansion pack that at least tackles the setting, since I like the Lovecraftian vibe as a contrast to the more classic UFOs of the original game. Coolguye posted:It does happen on Impossible, it's just harder to do because it's harder to wipe out most of a squad at once. And even then, the retreating survivor is not harmless. He is still perfectly capable of murdering someone, his AI simply changes to make him WAY less aggressive. This is what bugs me about panic in EU. It's fundamentally different in how it works for you than how it works for the aliens. For you it's: unit picks randomly between running to cover, hunkering down, or shooting at a random visible target (including friendlies), and then losing their next turn. For the aliens it's literally just a change in their AI, making them more likely to fall back rather than take an aggressive action. No lost turn, no chance of friendly fire, just (maybe) backing off a bit and briefly taking some heat off. Also something that just occurred to me; why can't aliens hunker down? I mean I guess it's not a big deal but if they're pinned down it would be nice if they would try to hunker down sometimes rather than taking a shot at one of my troops and miraculously scoring a hit on what should be like a 10% chance. The Cheshire Cat fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Sep 13, 2013 |
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Sep 13, 2013 01:54
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Thought I was doing well on Classic. Had sattelites covering America, my starting base in Europe, Asia and Nigeria. With only Brazil, Egypt and South Africa dropped out. All the plasma weapons were researched and had four armours. Everyone is armed with some sort of plasma rifle, still on laser sniper cause hadn't money to make the plasma yet, only one plasma cannon built for my heavies. Then I my first supply ship had landed. Taking care of the two sectoid commanders was easy enough. Immediately after killing them 6 mutons, 2 muton berserkers, 3 muton elites and 6 heavy floaters rush into the main room, this room is all elevated cover on either side and high cover abound. My guys are stuck immediatly outside the entrance with only one high cover and half cover spotted about. Can't retreat backwards and can't stay and fight. Guess its back on the ranger for them until I finish buying the new gear.
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Sep 13, 2013 01:59
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Aliens can totally hunker down, although it might not be enabled in vanilla? Long war aliens certainly put it to use.
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Sep 13, 2013 02:12
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No, I've seen aliens panic and hunker on Normal.
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Sep 13, 2013 02:25
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I've not seen a tooltip above them saying 'hunker down' like with overwatch. But they have taken turns where they neither moved nor fired. So that could be them hunkering down.
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Sep 13, 2013 02:33
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Marenghi posted:I've not seen a tooltip above them saying 'hunker down' like with overwatch. But they have taken turns where they neither moved nor fired. So that could be them hunkering down. Aliens Hunkering is exceedingly rare in vanilla, but it does happen. You can tell when they do because they are cowering in fear and because you suddenly have zero crit chance on them.
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Sep 13, 2013 02:49
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Marenghi posted:I've not seen a tooltip above them saying 'hunker down' like with overwatch. But they have taken turns where they neither moved nor fired. So that could be them hunkering down.
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Sep 13, 2013 03:52
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Marenghi posted:
This happened to me the other day too, same ship and everything, except I had sectopods and an Ethereal as well. Those Supply Barges seem to be really dangerous and I've heard several people give similar stories in this thread of the whole thing turning into an alien gangbang as every one of them piles onto your squad. Is it maybe because when you uncover the 'Command' alien (outsider, Sectoid Commander, Ethereal) he signals for all the others to congregate at his position?
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Sep 13, 2013 03:54
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Marenghi posted:Thought I was doing well on Classic. I see XCOM's complacency detector is still working a year after release This is when I get destroyed the worst. I think I'm doing well (always a mistake in this game), I've got a sniper giving the gift of bullets to alien faces and all of a sudden that sniper is running for his life because the rest of the squad is dead, and dead soldiers can't spot for the sniper 
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Sep 13, 2013 04:10
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Met my first ethereal. He mind controlled one of my guys, but I was able to get the ethereal down to 1 HP. I've got an Arc thrower ready to move into range and do the needful. On his turn he does some psi stuff that gives him 4 extra health, so now he's at 5. I haven't researched advanced Arc Thrower yet, so I need him under 3. I had a sniper with a plasma pistol I could have used to get him down to below 3 hopefully, but I'm dumb and don't remember that. I move my assault in to point blank and ready the arc thrower. 34% chance. I take the shot. It lands. My first etheral is a live capture, and everybody goes home safe to their families.
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Sep 13, 2013 04:21
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^^ Feels good. My similar experience was getting the Xavier achievement, which happened in the endgame temple ship assault with a 30-something% chance to hit.
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Sep 13, 2013 04:38
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The Cheshire Cat posted:I'm fairly certain the devs aren't going to try taking any design lessons from TFTD. Although I would love a potential sequel/expansion pack that at least tackles the setting, since I like the Lovecraftian vibe as a contrast to the more classic UFOs of the original game. What was not to love about TFTD? Especially the cruise ship terror mission. "Here, we are making this huge map, which is not underwater so you cannot use some of your weapons. I hope you have time, because you have to search each and every single cabin on board to find that last alien that just refuses to come out. Oh, and did we mention that there is also a second part? Have fun!"  At least you never got Tentaculats on this missions.But I liked the Lovecraftian underwater theme better than the original UFO, so if they return to the TFTD setting in XCOM 2 I would be happy.
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Sep 13, 2013 07:07
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Looks like the Enemy Within achievements on steam are finally active and we can see what they are. Looking at this, it seems that "Enemy Within" is not just an ominous sounding title, there really will be humans working with the aliens. A lot of the achievements talk about "find the new threat" or "defeat the new threat" and then you've got achievements like "G'Day: Kill an elite enemy Sniper with one of your own snipers in single player". Oooh, looks like invasions of the XCOM base are back too in some form: "All Hands on Deck: Get at least 4 kills with XCOM Base Security personnel".
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Sep 13, 2013 17:40
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Nice! Can't wait to waste some puny humans!
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Sep 13, 2013 17:48
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Guardian of Earth: Designate a highly decorated soldier as the Volunteer So I'm guessing there's going to be medals/citations in EW, that's pretty cool. It'll certainly be another way to distinguish soldiers from each other
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Sep 13, 2013 17:51
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