Israel Palestine Megathread: Chickenshitgate

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Israel Palestine Megathread: Chickenshitgate

1337JiveTurkey: Feb 17, 2005

Cerebral Bore posted:

That's all well and good, but it's also completely tangential to the point. The fact remains that the US did start one of the biggest airlift operations in history at considerable cost to themselves, up to and including eating the goddamn oil crisis of 73. This was done despite the USS Liberty incident and all the other times that Israel had been thumbing their nose at the US. How is that not an example of Israel getting away with all those previous incidents?

Your argument seems to be that because the US didn't start a full-scale effort on day one of the war, this supposedly somehow was punishing Israel by "letting the IDF get the skit kicked out of them". This is dumb because a) How is the US supposed to know whether Israel needs a full-scale resupply effort or not on day one of the war, b) poo poo on the scale of Operation Nickel Grass takes time to plan and organize and finally c) the US did in fact start ferrying supplies to Israel on day four of the war but they initially did it on El Al planes to try to maintain plausible deniability.

So how exatly was the US "letting the IDF get the poo poo kicked out of it" here?

The US had enough resources in the area to tell that the Israeli government was mobilizing its nuclear forces. They would have known things were going badly for Israel at the start, if not the sheer magnitude of what was going on. At a minimum there were ELINT ships like the Liberty watching where Soviet ships were going and the 6th Fleet would have other ships at sea in the eastern Mediterranean.

The US however didn't do anything at all until after the Israeli government was preparing to use nuclear weapons. Golda Meir wouldn't have very visibly put the country's Jericho missiles on high alert if she had any confidence that the US was going to do anything before that. There's a very real risk that it would backfire and in any case when the USSR inevitably retaliated, Israel would have been destroyed. It's hard to overstate how desperate the Israeli government would be at this point. For the US this had the potential to spiral much further out of control, so ensuring that there wouldn't be a nuclear war was the priority.

By the time the US did anything at all, the Golan Heights were near their breaking point and about to collapse. The Sinai Peninsula's defenses were overrun and the reserves sent to stop the attack had taken heavy casualties. That's when the US put some supplies onto El Al flights in spite of Israel needing far more than that. Based on what had happened on day 2 and Israel preparing its nuclear forces on day 3, it was perfectly clear that what the US was sending on day 4 would be a bandage on a gaping chest wound.

It wasn't until day 6 that the US actually authorized the use of Military Airlift Command assets and days 7 and 8 when they showed up. It only took a matter of hours because the MAC was responsible for ferrying reinforcements to Western Europe and had to be able to respond fast in any case. It was perfectly possible for the US to have responded more aggressively at and a couple of days earlier but they waited until the point that either they took drastic action or the IDF was going to be overrun.

# ? Jul 7, 2014 12:15

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# ? May 31, 2024 05:41

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

On less conspiracy-theory oriented matters:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28189031

quote:

Israeli air strikes on Gaza kill nine Palestinian militants

Nine Palestinian militants have been killed in Israeli air raids on Gaza following rocket attacks on Israel.

Hamas said six members of its military wing died in a strike near Rafah, in the south. Three others died in separate air strikes in response to rocket and mortar fire on Israel.

Later, a rocket struck near the southern Israeli city of Beersheba.

Tensions in the region are high following the murder of Palestinian teenager Mohammed Abu Khdair last week.

On Sunday, police said they had arrested six Jewish suspects in connection with the killing. Police told the BBC the 16-year-old was apparently "murdered because of his nationality". Details have not been divulged because the case is subject to a gagging order.

Mohammed Abu Khdair's killing followed the murder of three Israeli teenagers in the occupied West Bank, whose bodies were found a week ago.

Israel says two members of Hamas abducted and killed the youths, but it has denied any involvement.

Call for revenge
Emergency services in Gaza confirmed only two deaths from the air strike in Rafah but four others are believed to be buried under the collapsed site. A seventh victim was reported killed in another attack.

Earlier, two other Palestinian militants were killed in a separate air attack near a refugee camp in central Gaza.

The Israeli military said the strikes were in response to at least 25 rocket and mortar attacks on Israel on Sunday. It said the air raids targeted "terror" sites and concealed rocket launchers.

Women mourn deaths of two Palestinians in Gaza. 6 July 2014

But Hamas's military wing, the Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades, vowed that Israel would pay "a tremendous price".

On Monday morning, the Israeli military said a rocket had struck the Beersheba area, 50km (31 miles) from Gaza.

An Israeli military patrol had also been attacked near the security fence along the border with Gaza, apparently with an anti-tank missile and fire-arms, it added.

The BBC's Kevin Connolly in Jerusalem says Israel has arrested hundreds of members of Hamas during its search for the kidnappers of the three Israeli teenagers.

That may help to explain the sudden intensification of rocket fire from Gaza, he says.

'Brutal behaviour'
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has promised to bring to justice the killers of Mohammed Abu Khdair.

Mr Netanyahu's office said on Monday that he had spoken with the teenager's father, Hussein, offering his condolences and expressing his outrage at "the reprehensible murder".

"We acted immediately to apprehend the murderers. We will bring them to trial and they will be dealt with to the fullest extent of the law," it quoted him as telling Mr Abu Khdair.

"We denounce all brutal behaviour. The murder of your son is abhorrent and cannot be countenanced by any human being," Mr Netanyahu said.

Mohammed Abu Khdair was abducted on Wednesday morning and found dead hours later. He had reportedly been burnt to death.

His funeral in East Jerusalem on Friday triggered repeated clashes between police and Palestinian youths there and in Arab-Israeli towns in the north of Israel.

Earlier in the week, the three Israeli teenagers Naftali Frenkel, Gilad Shaer - both 16 years old - and Eyal Yifrach, 19 were buried, their funerals attended by thousands of people, including Mr Netanyahu. They were abducted while hitch-hiking in the West Bank and their bodies were found last Monday.

Justice Minister Tzipi Livni said her department was investigating some of the anti-Arab incitement seen on social media last week.

"These things need to be cut when they are small," she told Channel 2 TV. "At this moment, everybody's job should be to lower the flames."

Israeli officials said the six suspects remained in custody and were being interrogated.

They were described as young males, including some minors, all of whom live in the Jerusalem area.

About 50 people have been arrested in protests following Mohammed Abu Khdair's death, officials say.

Among them was the victim's 15-year-old cousin - a US citizen - whose family says he was beaten by Israeli security forces.

The boy, Tariq Khdair, who attends a school in Florida, was bailed after appearing in court on Sunday, accused of attacking police officers during the unrest. His parents deny that he was involved in the riots.

So much for the ceasefire rumours...

# ? Jul 7, 2014 13:34

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

emanresu tnuocca posted:

The version I know of that joke not only mentions the Mossad, which is the Israeli equivalent of the CIA, but it also doesn't try to destroy the joke by insisting on making the Mossad look even more incompetent, but I can see why certain people would prefer to ruin a joke just so that they wouldn't get caught accidentally 'complimenting' an Israeli agency.

It's not funny if it takes the mossad two months, the whole point of the joke is that the more corrupt and immoral an intelligence organization is and the less it is concerned with actually solving a case but rather prefers just pointing out a culprit it will produce results more rapidly, but the nature of those results renders them useless.

It is a shame D&D attitudes ruin a decent joke.

I remember it taking hours and them having to look for the Mossad agent. This was in Israel in the '90s, so I don't think D&D had gotten to the joke yet. :shrug:

# ? Jul 7, 2014 18:33

MothraAttack: Apr 28, 2008

Oh, gently caress. Dozens of rockets were just fired, targeting several major cities.

# ? Jul 7, 2014 18:34

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

MothraAttack posted:

Oh, gently caress. Dozens of rockets were just fired, targeting several major cities.

Ease up there jumpy. Do you know what those rockets look like?

# ? Jul 7, 2014 18:49

Real hurthling!: Sep 11, 2001

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they think this will lead to escalation and not that they think human waste powered stove pipe rockets are an existential threat to Israel.

# ? Jul 7, 2014 18:52

Rush Limbo: Sep 5, 2005; its with a full house

I'm pretty sure you can buy more dangerous fireworks than Palestinian rockets.

# ? Jul 7, 2014 18:55

Senjuro: Aug 19, 2006

The damage done is irrelevant. Barrages like this cause Israel to escalate their attacks which in turn causes more rocket fire which in turn causes Israel to further escalate and soon enough you end up with Cast Lead/Cloud Pillar 2: Electric Boogaloo.

# ? Jul 7, 2014 19:01

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Real hurthling! posted:

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they think this will lead to escalation and not that they think human waste powered stove pipe rockets are an existential threat to Israel.

Ddraig posted:

I'm pretty sure you can buy more dangerous fireworks than Palestinian rockets.

You have fireworks that can pass 20 miles (shortest distance between Gaza Strip and Beer Sheba) and still cause damage? Not to mention the ones that reached Tel Aviv during Smoke Pillar? It's not like they have anything resembling Israeli stockpiles, but grads are still no joke.

I frankly think Hamas and the other organizations shooting rockets out of Gaza would find your characterization quite offensive. Why do you hate the armed Palestinian resistance? Are you a Zionist agent?

# ? Jul 7, 2014 19:01

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

Yeah that's sincere. That's a new one: you can't point out how disproportionate the levels of force are, it'll hurt Hamas' feelings.

Senjuro posted:

The damage done is irrelevant. Barrages like this cause Israel to escalate their attacks which in turn causes more rocket fire which in turn causes Israel to further escalate and soon enough you end up with Cast Lead/Cloud Pillar 2: Electric Boogaloo.

Not attacking causes escalation as well. Understand? The endgame is total extermination.

# ? Jul 7, 2014 19:06

Senjuro: Aug 19, 2006

SedanChair posted:

Not attacking causes escalation as well. Understand? The endgame is total extermination.

In the short term it just means you're going to be bombed more than you would be otherwise and if you push hard enough you get another ground invasion. That's the more immediate concern that people have, I think.

# ? Jul 7, 2014 19:14

Kaislioc: Feb 14, 2008

Absurd Alhazred posted:

Not to mention the ones that reached Tel Aviv during Smoke Pillar?

Had their warheads removed to get that extra distance. Terrifying, I know.

# ? Jul 7, 2014 19:21

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

SedanChair posted:

Yeah that's sincere. That's a new one: you can't point out how disproportionate the levels of force are, it'll hurt Hamas' feelings.

Yeah. Exactly. You despicable Hasbara shill.

quote:

Not attacking causes escalation as well. Understand? The endgame is total extermination.

I struggle with understanding what the hell the endgame is for the Gaza side of the equation (you'd think extermination, but if so, they're being darned inefficient about it), but I can tell you what the West Bank endgame for the settler movement, confirmed from at least two high level right-wing settler sources (one during a debate with Al Jazeera's Mehdi Hassan, another during a debate with a member of the Israeli Communist Party before the last Israeli elections): Jordan as the new Palestinian state.

Basically, their idea is that the Hashemite Kingdom falls to a Palestinian uprising, becomes a Palestinian state, and then the Palestinians in the West Bank can get Jordanian citizenship, while the territory is "managed" by Israel, with the choicest bits, already occupied by settlements, staying Israeli. Everybody wins! :haw:

"Now, Absurd", you may ask me, "isn't that unfairly infringing upon the rights of Palestinians? Don't Jordanians oppose this idea? Doesn't that run counter to international law? Doesn't it run counter to any geopolitical analysis of what the consequences of a fall of the Hashemite Kingdom, the current government of Jordan, and a close ally of the State of Israel, will be for the region?" Well, then, those obviously came up to me, and I will routinely bring up such concerns, particularly the latter, but right-wingers will assure me that this is all Western/European/New Israel Fund propaganda, and if those darned leftists would just leave us good Jews alone, we could work everything out.

# ? Jul 7, 2014 19:22

Aurubin: Mar 17, 2011

Barack Obama writing an op-ed in Haaretz is like when John McCain wrote an op-ed for what he thought was the old Pravda, no one in the target audience will see it. Putin picked the New York Times and Rouhani the Washington Post, what, did Ynet say no?

Regardless:

quote:

Peace is the only path to true security for Israel and the Palestinians
In an exclusive article for Haaretz's Israel Conference on Peace, Barack Obama says that the only solution is a democratic, Jewish state living side-by-side in peace and security with a viable, independent Palestinian state.

As Air Force One prepared to touch down in the Holy Land last year, I looked out my window and was once again struck by the fact that Israel�s security can be measured in a matter of minutes and miles. I�ve seen what security means to those who live near the Blue Line, to children in Sderot who just want to grow up without fear, to families who�ve lost their homes and everything they have to Hezbollah�s and Hamas�s rockets.

And as a father myself, I cannot imagine the pain endured by the parents of Naftali Fraenkel, Gilad Shaar and Eyal Yifrach, who were tragically kidnapped and murdered in June. I am also heartbroken by the senseless abduction and murder of Mohammed Hussein Abu Khdeir, whose life was stolen from him and his family. At this dangerous moment, all parties must protect the innocent and act with reasonableness and restraint, not vengeance and retribution.

From Harry Truman through today, the United States has always been Israel�s greatest friend. As I�ve said time and again, neither I nor the United States will ever waver in our commitment to the security of Israel and the Israeli people, and our support for peace will always remain a bedrock foundation of that commitment.

Over the past five years, we�ve expanded our cooperation and today, as Israel�s leaders have affirmed, the security relationship between Israel and the United States is stronger than ever. Our militaries conduct more exercises together.

Our intelligence cooperation is at an all-time high. Together, we�re developing new defense technologies, such as remote IED-sensing equipment and lightweight protective armor that will protect our troops.

Budgets in Washington are tight, but our commitment to Israel�s security remains ironclad. The United States is committed to providing more than $3 billion each year to help finance Israel�s security through 2018. Across the board, our unprecedented security cooperation is making Israel safer, and American investments in Israel�s cutting-edge defense systems like the Arrow interceptor system and Iron Dome are saving lives.

Our commitment to Israel�s security also extends to our engagement throughout the Middle East. Last month, under American leadership, the international community successfully removed the last of Bashar al-Assad�s declared chemical weapons from Syria. Eliminating this stockpile reduces the ability of a brutal dictator to use weapons of mass destruction to threaten not just the Syrian people but Syria�s neighbors, including Israel. And we will continue working with our partners in Europe and the Arab world to support the moderate opposition and to press for a political solution that resolves a conflict that is feeding a humanitarian crisis and regional instability.

We are also working to ensure that Iran does not ever possess a nuclear weapon. Through tough international negotiations on Iran�s nuclear program, we are attempting to peacefully address a major threat to global and regional security, including the security of Israel. We have been clear that any agreement must provide concrete, verifiable assurances that Iran�s nuclear program is exclusively peaceful, and we have consulted closely with Israel throughout this process. As we draw near to the deadline for negotiations, we do not yet know if these talks will succeed, but our bottom line has not changed. We are determined to prevent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon, and we are keeping every option on the table to accomplish that goal.

The United States has also demonstrated our commitment to Israel�s security through our enduring commitment to a lasting peace in the Middle East. We have always been clear-eyed that resolving the decades-old conflict between Israelis and Palestinians would take enormous effort and require difficult decisions by the parties. So while we were disappointed that the tough decisions weren�t made by both parties to keep moving the peace process forward, the United States will never give up on the hope of a lasting peace, which is the only path to true security for Israel.

As I said last year in Jerusalem, peace is necessary, just, and possible. I believed it then. I believe it now. Peace is necessary because it�s the only way to ensure a secure and democratic future for the Jewish state of Israel. While walls and missile defense systems can help protect against some threats, true safety will only come with a comprehensive negotiated settlement. Reaching a peace agreement with the Palestinians would also help turn the tide of international sentiment and sideline violent extremists, further bolstering Israel�s security.

Peace is also, undeniably, just. Just as the Israeli people have the right to live in the historic homeland of the Jewish people, the Palestinian people deserve the right to self-determination. Palestinian children have hopes and dreams for their future and deserve to live with the dignity that can only come with a state of their own. And, in President Abbas, Israel has a counterpart committed to a two-state solution and security cooperation with Israel. The United States has repeatedly made clear that any Palestinian government must uphold these long-standing principles: a commitment to non-violence, adherence to past agreements, and the recognition of Israel. With negotiations on hiatus, these principles are more important than ever. All parties must exercise restraint and work together to maintain stability on the ground.

Finally, peace is possible. This is one of the most important things to remember during setbacks and moments of frustration. It will take political will to make the difficult choices that are necessary and support from the Israeli and Palestinian people and civil society. Both parties must be willing to take risks for peace. But at the end of the day, we know where negotiations must lead�two states for two peoples. Refusing to compromise or cooperate with one another won�t do anything to increase security for either the Israeli or the Palestinian people. The only solution is a democratic, Jewish state living side-by-side in peace and security with a viable, independent Palestinian state. That�s why Secretary Kerry and I remain determined to work with both Prime Minister Netanyahu and President Abbas to pursue a two-state solution. When the political will exists to recommit to serious negotiations, the United States will be there, ready to do our part.

A few weeks ago, I met with President Peres at the White House as he prepares to end his term. As always, it was an honor to sit and talk with a man who has given so much of his life to building the State of Israel and who has so much hope for his country. Shimon Peres has been a dauntless advocate for Israel�s security, and last month, in his historic meeting with President Abbas and Pope Francis at the Vatican, he put it simply: �Without peace,� he said, �we are not complete.�

For all that Israel has accomplished, for all that Israel will achieve, Israel cannot be complete and it cannot be secure without peace. It is never too late to seed the ground for peace�a true and living peace that exists not just in the plans of leaders, but in the hearts of all Israelis and Palestinians. That is the future the United States remains committed to, as Israel�s first friend, Israel�s oldest friend, and Israel�s strongest friend.

Barack Obama is president of the United States of America.

This article was written for Haaretz's Israel Conference on Peace before June 30, 2014.

Aurubin fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Jul 8, 2014

# ? Jul 8, 2014 04:09

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Aurubin posted:

Barack Obama writing an op-ed in Haaretz is like when John McCain wrote an op-ed for what he thought was the old Pravda, no one in the target audience will see it. Putin picked the New York Times and Rouhani the Washington Post, what, did Ynet say no?

Regardless:

Yeah, if I were actually going to a new audience, I would be trying to write one for NRG or Makor Rishon or something. What was his thought process? "Oh, I need to get to the Israeli public, to change their perspective about peace and security. I know! I'll write an op ed for a newspaper only taken seriously by people to the left of Labor!" :rolleyes:

# ? Jul 8, 2014 04:19

wheez the roux: Aug 2, 2004; THEY SHOULD'VE GIVEN IT TO LYNCH

Death to the Seahawks. Death to Seahawks posters.

I'll put together a proper thread at some point, but if you want to do something at least somewhat productive to alleviate the suffering instead of just feeling terrible, UNRWA is one of the best ways to get money to people who need it in Gaza: http://www.unrwausa.org

# ? Jul 8, 2014 04:25

KomradeX: Oct 29, 2011

emanresu tnuocca posted:

The version I know of that joke not only mentions the Mossad, which is the Israeli equivalent of the CIA, but it also doesn't try to destroy the joke by insisting on making the Mossad look even more incompetent, but I can see why certain people would prefer to ruin a joke just so that they wouldn't get caught accidentally 'complimenting' an Israeli agency.

It's not funny if it takes the mossad two months, the whole point of the joke is that the more corrupt and immoral an intelligence organization is and the less it is concerned with actually solving a case but rather prefers just pointing out a culprit it will produce results more rapidly, but the nature of those results renders them useless.

It is a shame D&D attitudes ruin a decent joke.

Absurd Alhazred posted:

I remember it taking hours and them having to look for the Mossad agent. This was in Israel in the '90s, so I don't think D&D had gotten to the joke yet.

So how does the version of the joke you know go? Jesus if your gonna complain about a joke being told wrong, you loving tell it the right way.

# ? Jul 8, 2014 04:28

Ytlaya: Nov 13, 2005

Absurd Alhazred posted:

You have fireworks that can pass 20 miles (shortest distance between Gaza Strip and Beer Sheba) and still cause damage? Not to mention the ones that reached Tel Aviv during Smoke Pillar? It's not like they have anything resembling Israeli stockpiles, but grads are still no joke.

It's an exaggeration to call them fireworks, but the point that they're not a significant threat remains. It's literally analogous to a blind person throwing rocks at soldiers and being responded to with gunfire (actually that's a pretty generous analogy, given that rocks can cause significant damage if they hit you).

# ? Jul 8, 2014 04:37

FRINGE: May 23, 2003; title stolen for lf posting

SedanChair posted:

Ease up there jumpy. Do you know what those rockets look like?

Ddraig posted:

I'm pretty sure you can buy more dangerous fireworks than Palestinian rockets.

Absurd Alhazred posted:

cause damage?

If they literally hit a person in the head it would be bad... If.

# ? Jul 8, 2014 04:38

Kaal: May 22, 2002; through thousands of posts in D&D over a decade, I now believe I know what I'm talking about. if I post forcefully and confidently, I can convince others that is true. no one sees through my facade.

KomradeX posted:

So how does the version of the joke you know go? Jesus if your gonna complain about a joke being told wrong, you loving tell it the right way.

There's a bunch of variations on the Intelligence Agency Torture Joke. Usually it's the CIA, an American ally, and an opponent. I've heard everything from the Soviet KGB, the Russian FSB, the Israeli Mossad, the Iraqi Mukhabarat, the British MI6, etc. Basically the way the joke works is that the Americans buy their rabbit/bear/camel with money or technology, the ally gets it through actual competence, and the opponent gets it through torturing a false confession. If you want the opponent to be the hapless butt of the joke then the other two have to go and find them ineffectually torturing the animal, but the funnier version of the joke is when the wrong animal walks in last and simply declares that it is what was wanted. (i.e. "Finally after a week the Mossad agent walks up to the table with a huge grin and a bloody mess of a bear in handcuffs. The bear sits down heavily and declares, "I confess, I am the rabbit that you were looking for.")

Kaal fucked around with this message at 04:58 on Jul 8, 2014

# ? Jul 8, 2014 04:50

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Ytlaya posted:

It's an exaggeration to call them fireworks, but the point that they're not a significant threat remains. It's literally analogous to a blind person throwing rocks at soldiers and being responded to with gunfire (actually that's a pretty generous analogy, given that rocks can cause significant damage if they hit you).

"Literally"? Funny. They are able to actually aim them into population centers, which is way better than someone blind would be able to. I mean, there are "literally" much better arguments for why Israeli policies are terrible than "oh, Hamas rockets are 'literally' unable to do any real damage unless they hit somebody square on the head'".

FRINGE posted:

If they literally hit a person in the head it would be bad... If.

That sure doesn't look like it would cause any damage if it hit anybody's car or someone's house or whatnot. Sure, no, perfectly fine, average day in an American suburban neighborhood.

It's just remarkable to me the kinds of completely ludicrous arguments some of you folks get into due to your irrational hatred of Israelis qua Israelis. It's remarkable. I'm glad the kinds of Israelis who go to the West Bank on solidarity missions and/or get the Shin Bet on their asses aren't disheartened by your sheer vile bigotry. You keep pretending this is you being all pro-revolutionary, pro-Palestinian, anti-colonialism, whatever excuse you keep up to be just completely obnoxious to millions of people you never met.

I think I'm taking a break from this thread for a while. I can get this amount of bile talking to Israeli right-wingers, and at least there I'm part of a process where somebody might change their opinions and end up leading to changing policies, unlike this whole Israeli-hating wank-fest by internet fearless advocates who've never had to wake up to hear a suicide bomber had hit a bus route they had just been on the other day, or getting thrown out of the way by border police by simultaneously dodging rocks by the Shabab in the West Bank.

# ? Jul 8, 2014 04:54

Kaal: May 22, 2002; through thousands of posts in D&D over a decade, I now believe I know what I'm talking about. if I post forcefully and confidently, I can convince others that is true. no one sees through my facade.

The idea that firing unguided rockets at civilians is "no big deal" is rather morally appalling. Fortunately Israel has spent a lot of money and effort putting together comprehensive defenses so few are killed, but it's not for lack of trying. Here's pictures of the effects of the last "firework", which burned down a factory in Sderot, a city in the Negev. Qassams aren't bunker busters, but they're not hand grenades either: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.601766

Kaal fucked around with this message at 05:25 on Jul 8, 2014

# ? Jul 8, 2014 05:05

FRINGE: May 23, 2003; title stolen for lf posting

Absurd Alhazred posted:

It's just remarkable to me the kinds of completely ludicrous arguments some of you folks get into due to your irrational hatred of Israelis qua Israelis. It's remarkable. I'm glad the kinds of Israelis who go to the West Bank on solidarity missions and/or get the Shin Bet on their asses aren't disheartened by your sheer vile bigotry.

Yeah those lippy Palestinians, what are they thinking? Probably should put those uppity arabs back in their place with some comeuppance right?

They should just deal with it.

http://www.juancole.com/2012/10/creepy-israeli-planning-for-palestinian-food-insecurity-in-gaza-revealed.html

quote:

An Israeli human rights organization, Gisha, sued in Israeli courts to force the release of a planning document for �putting the Palestinians on a diet� without risking the bad press of mass starvation, and the courts concurred. The document, produced by the Israeli army, appears to be a calculation of how to make sure, despite the Israeli blockade, that Palestinians got an average of 2279 calories a day, the basic need. But by planning on limiting the calories in that way, the Israeli military was actually plotting to keep Palestinians in Gaza (half of them children) permanently on the brink of malnutrition, what health professionals call �food insecurity�. And, it was foreseeable that sometimes they would slip into malnutrition, since not as many trucks were always let in every day as the Israeli army recommended (106 were recommended, but it was often less in the period 2007-2010).

http://www.ibtimes.com/israels-blockade-gaza-puts-palestinian-childrens-health-risk-report-702821

quote:

A new report from two international aid organizations says that Israel's five-year blockade of the Gaza Strip has led to severe contamination of the region's drinking water, resulting in numerous health issues that particularly affect Palestinian children.

... The blockade is a blight on the lives of Gaza's civilians. It is shocking to see so many children struggling to live a fulfilled and healthy life -- unable to play in safe areas and forced to drink dirty and dangerous water that is making them sick, Aimee Shalan, MAP's Director of Advocacy and Communications, said in a statement.

... MAP described Gaza's sewage system as completely broken, saying much of its infrastructure was destroyed during Israel's three-week military offensive in late December 2008 against Gaza and the Hamas government, known as Operation Cast Lead, during which Israeli armed forces conducted air strikes, artillery shelling and a ground invasion in response to increasing rocket-propelled grenade attacks from Gaza targeting nearby Israeli cities.

As a result, Gaza's drinking water has been contaminated by fertilizers and human waste.

... Crucial equipment needed to repair the sewage and water system remains blocked and on the restricted list of goods allowed in

... According to the international laws of war, Israel is responsible for the welfare of Gaza's civilian population.

http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/gaza-2020-liveable-place?id=1423

quote:

Without remedial action now, Gaza�s problems in water and electricity, education and health will only get worse over the coming years, the top United Nations official for humanitarian and development aid in the occupied Palestinian territory, Maxwell Gaylard, warned today. "Gaza will have half a million more people by 2020 while its economy will grow only slowly. In consequence, the people of Gaza will have an even harder time getting enough drinking water and electricity, or sending their children to school."

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/05/israel-confiscates-palestinians.html
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.572633

quote:

Land, property theft & destruction / Ethnic cleansing

IDF uses live-fire zones to expel Palestinians from areas of West Bank, officer admits

... Shalev said the IDF�s policy of confiscating humanitarian equipment before it got to its destination was �a punch in the right places. When you confiscate 10 large, white and expensive tents, it�s not easy. It�s not simple to recover.� Because of the confiscation policy, the Red Cross had decided to stop providing tents to shepherd communities whose huts and barns were destroyed by the Civil Administration, he noted. The European Community and international aid organizations have devoted much of their humanitarian and diplomatic activities to Area C in recent years. As they see it, the Israeli veto on connecting communities to water, electricity and transportation infrastructure is contrary to Israel�s obligations as an occupier.

quote:

The International Committee of the Red Cross has stopped providing emergency tents to Palestinians living in the Jordan Valley whose homes have been demolished by Israel.

The aid organization made the decision after its officials learned that in recent months, the army has methodically kept the tents from arriving at their destination, confiscating or destroying them.

Food, water, shelter, security... too good for the non-people right? They should sit down and shut up while a large strategic set of initiatives grinds on to literally starve them out.

Kaal posted:

The idea that firing unguided rockets at civilians is "no big deal" is rather morally appalling.

Its not a case of "NO big deal". Its a case of "a NON-EQUIVALENT deal" for a long list of obvious reasons.

# ? Jul 8, 2014 05:14

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

FRINGE posted:

Its not a case of "NO big deal".

That's bullshit, that's exactly what some people are acting like. Sorry, it's not okay to fire rockets randomly into a country, even if they're so lovely they don't do much damage.

# ? Jul 8, 2014 07:57

ReV VAdAUL: Oct 3, 2004; I'm WILD about
WILDMAN

It is noteworthy the comparison offered is between qassams damaging property and air strikes killing multiple people. How many Palestinian lives is an Israeli car worth?

# ? Jul 8, 2014 08:03

nigel thornberry: Jul 29, 2013

Is it ok to fire rockets into a country that is actively shelling and trying to starve out your own country into nonexistence?

# ? Jul 8, 2014 08:14

litany of gulps: Jun 11, 2001; Fun Shoe

Absurd Alhazred posted:

"Literally"? Funny. They are able to actually aim them into population centers, which is way better than someone blind would be able to. I mean, there are "literally" much better arguments for why Israeli policies are terrible than "oh, Hamas rockets are 'literally' unable to do any real damage unless they hit somebody square on the head'".

That sure doesn't look like it would cause any damage if it hit anybody's car or someone's house or whatnot. Sure, no, perfectly fine, average day in an American suburban neighborhood.

It's just remarkable to me the kinds of completely ludicrous arguments some of you folks get into due to your irrational hatred of Israelis qua Israelis. It's remarkable. I'm glad the kinds of Israelis who go to the West Bank on solidarity missions and/or get the Shin Bet on their asses aren't disheartened by your sheer vile bigotry. You keep pretending this is you being all pro-revolutionary, pro-Palestinian, anti-colonialism, whatever excuse you keep up to be just completely obnoxious to millions of people you never met.

I think I'm taking a break from this thread for a while. I can get this amount of bile talking to Israeli right-wingers, and at least there I'm part of a process where somebody might change their opinions and end up leading to changing policies, unlike this whole Israeli-hating wank-fest by internet fearless advocates who've never had to wake up to hear a suicide bomber had hit a bus route they had just been on the other day, or getting thrown out of the way by border police by simultaneously dodging rocks by the Shabab in the West Bank.

It isn't really the idea that the rockets are harmless, but the knowledge that the retaliation will be a thousand times worse and the death toll for the weaker side will be vastly disproportionate to any damage caused by these rockets. Yet these rocket attacks are justification for that death toll, in the eyes of many. It isn't about being obnoxious. You want to push for an incremental political solution to the problem of a rabidly fanatical theocratic state waging a war of extermination on their neighbors. Of course your people are going to get suicide bombed. There isn't a real way for the Palestinian side here to proceed other than symbolic gestures like the rockets and suicide bombings and kidnappings. They certainly aren't able to engage in conventional warfare.

Israel's history of killing Americans and taking American military aid to wage their genocide doesn't sit well with a lot of Americans. If you think this is purely bigotry, maybe you should question the source of this vitriol. Is it unjustified?

# ? Jul 8, 2014 08:17

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

ReV VAdAUL posted:

It is noteworthy the comparison offered is between qassams damaging property and air strikes killing multiple people. How many Palestinian lives is an Israeli car worth?

Pretty sure around 1,000 civilians have been killed on the Israeli side in the last decade or so. You guys are making up this distinction between Israeli airstrikes killing dozens a pop, and people throwing rocks. Obviously if they're sending rockets capable of destroying multiple cars at a time, they're capable of killing bystanders, and that's reprehensible no matter how you slice it. I think Israel provokes these attacks through the continuation of their policies that oppress the Palestinian people, but the tactics that Palestinians have used at times are open and shut revenge-based. Not military operations designed to weaken Israel and make it clear that Palestinians will not live peacefully under their reign, in attempts to force them to the bargaining table. The only reason militias aren't using the same attacks that Israel does is due to logistics, not any sort of moral qualms about killing loads of innocent people. It's important to recognize that dynamic instead of claiming the Palestinians are blameless, because both sides are going to have to make concessions and work against the hatred they have for each other, even if one sides hands are bloodier.

Volkerball fucked around with this message at 08:26 on Jul 8, 2014

# ? Jul 8, 2014 08:20

litany of gulps: Jun 11, 2001; Fun Shoe

Volkerball posted:

It's important to recognize that dynamic instead of claiming the Palestinians are blameless, because both sides are going to have to make concessions and work against the hatred they have for each other, even if one sides hands are bloodier.

Still, citizens of the bloody side probably shouldn't be surprised when people all over the world are aghast at the actions of their nation. Probably should be less surprised when some of those people call for their destruction and revel in the sight of them being harried and provoked by the underdog. Everyone loves an underdog! Everyone hates genocide. Clear cut battle lines here.

# ? Jul 8, 2014 08:29

ReV VAdAUL: Oct 3, 2004; I'm WILD about
WILDMAN

Volkerball posted:

Pretty sure around 1,000 civilians have been killed on the Israeli side. You guys are making up this distinction between Israeli airstrikes killing dozens a pop, and people throwing rocks. Obviously if they're sending rockets capable of destroying multiple cars at a time, they're capable of killing bystanders, and that's reprehensible no matter how you slice it. I think Israel provokes these attacks through the continuation of their policies that oppress the Palestinian people, but the tactics that Palestinians have used at times are open and shut revenge-based. Not military operations designed to weaken Israel and make it clear that Palestinians will not live peacefully under their reign, in attempts to force them to the bargaining table. The only reason militias aren't using the same attacks that Israel does is due to logistics, not any sort of moral qualms about killing loads of innocent people. It's important to recognize that dynamic instead of claiming the Palestinians are blameless, because both sides are going to have to make concessions and work against the hatred they have for each other, even if one sides hands are bloodier.

The logistics of the matter is the issue at hand. Perhaps Palestinians would do the same if they were capable but if they had the logistics to do so Israel would be much more willing to negotiate with them.
In terms of reality rather than hypothetical Israel's military advantage is such that while they can destroy swathes of infrastructure or lives at will Palestinians occasionally inflict property damage. This behooves them, from their position of safety and security to take greater risks in securing peace. Israel is slowly but surely able to grind any compromise or concession out of Palestine that they desire due to their military and technological advantages. For there to be any compromise on the Israeli side Israel has to choose to take that moral path. Right now they are choosing not to, using their near total security to wither away the natives.

# ? Jul 8, 2014 08:38

Ratoslov: Feb 15, 2012; Now prepare yourselves! You're the guests of honor at the Greatest Kung Fu Cannibal BBQ Ever!

Volkerball posted:

It's important to recognize that dynamic instead of claiming the Palestinians are blameless, because both sides are going to have to make concessions and work against the hatred they have for each other, even if one sides hands are bloodier.

Please name a concession that the Palestinian people can make to the Israelis that the Israelis will accept.

# ? Jul 8, 2014 09:09

Rosscifer: Aug 3, 2005; Patience

Israel has had 47 loving years and they still won't publicly state what concessions they expect. Israel can't be bothered to make any kind of peace proposal. This is not going to be resolved by any negotiations. The international community needs to impose sanctions on the colonial power just like they did with South Africa.

# ? Jul 8, 2014 09:46

Hong XiuQuan: Feb 19, 2008; "Without justice for the Palestinians there will be no peace in the Middle East."

Absurd Alhazred posted:

"Literally"? Funny. They are able to actually aim them into population centers, which is way better than someone blind would be able to. I mean, there are "literally" much better arguments for why Israeli policies are terrible than "oh, Hamas rockets are 'literally' unable to do any real damage unless they hit somebody square on the head'".

That sure doesn't look like it would cause any damage if it hit anybody's car or someone's house or whatnot. Sure, no, perfectly fine, average day in an American suburban neighborhood.

It's just remarkable to me the kinds of completely ludicrous arguments some of you folks get into due to your irrational hatred of Israelis qua Israelis. It's remarkable. I'm glad the kinds of Israelis who go to the West Bank on solidarity missions and/or get the Shin Bet on their asses aren't disheartened by your sheer vile bigotry. You keep pretending this is you being all pro-revolutionary, pro-Palestinian, anti-colonialism, whatever excuse you keep up to be just completely obnoxious to millions of people you never met.

I think I'm taking a break from this thread for a while. I can get this amount of bile talking to Israeli right-wingers, and at least there I'm part of a process where somebody might change their opinions and end up leading to changing policies, unlike this whole Israeli-hating wank-fest by internet fearless advocates who've never had to wake up to hear a suicide bomber had hit a bus route they had just been on the other day, or getting thrown out of the way by border police by simultaneously dodging rocks by the Shabab in the West Bank.

I think the issue is more when you're talking about 'hails', 'storms', 'barrages' of rocket fire of that kind which is mostly highly inaccurate and of low yield, constantly as a moral counter to criticism of Israel's actions then it needs to be put into perspective. For example:

rankles a little when you realise that yesterday 90 'targets' were struck by IAF in Gaza. Want to compare the yields?

'But, the difference here is in discriminate targeting!'. More than four hundred Gazan children have been killed since 2009. Until May 31st, 1 Israeli child was killed.

Perspective.

Hong XiuQuan fucked around with this message at 09:55 on Jul 8, 2014

# ? Jul 8, 2014 09:53

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

ReV VAdAUL posted:

The logistics of the matter is the issue at hand. Perhaps Palestinians would do the same if they were capable but if they had the logistics to do so Israel would be much more willing to negotiate with them.
In terms of reality rather than hypothetical Israel's military advantage is such that while they can destroy swathes of infrastructure or lives at will Palestinians occasionally inflict property damage. This behooves them, from their position of safety and security to take greater risks in securing peace. Israel is slowly but surely able to grind any compromise or concession out of Palestine that they desire due to their military and technological advantages. For there to be any compromise on the Israeli side Israel has to choose to take that moral path. Right now they are choosing not to, using their near total security to wither away the natives.

Palestinians occasionally inflict property damage. Lol. You do realize this recent salvo started when 3 Israeli teenagers were kidnapped and murdered right? Go tell their families to their face that Hamas poses no threat to them. The funniest thing about this whole hand-waving is that a lot of you are complete hypocrites about it. When a fringe outlet of the FSA gets filmed murdering prisoners or licking a body part, holy poo poo the sky is falling, they'll kill all the Shias if they get any power because they're just as bad as Assad. But when Hamas gets implicated with a rocket attack that kills children or execute some teenagers, it's just a little property damage guys, come on. No biggie.

I agree with the second part of your post, but the thing is that there's a very specific narrative and culture that leads into Israel being able to navigate this process without giving up any concessions, and the Palestinians absolutely feed into that. It's very difficult for the Palestinians to tell Israel to take the moral path when there's so many immoral acts that Israel can point to of Hamas trying to incite terror and punish Israelis rather than gain their own freedom. They're an oppressed people, and it's not like lashing out and revenge killings are unprecedented in that situation, but as long as Hamas continues to receive support and the Palestinians don't shun aspects of what they do, they have no leverage in the world. They'll just keep giving ammo to those who portray them as bloodthirsty savages, and no one will have to ask themselves any questions. And I don't see that changing any time soon.

# ? Jul 8, 2014 10:08

bango skank: Jan 15, 2008; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Ratoslov posted:

Please name a concession that the Palestinian people can make to the Israelis that the Israelis will accept.

Funny you should ask, Israel posted a video detailing exactly what they want before talks can occur: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuDwUnhwPAk

# ? Jul 8, 2014 10:12

AreWeDrunkYet: Jul 8, 2006

Volkerball posted:

Palestinians occasionally inflict property damage. Lol. You do realize this recent salvo started when 3 Israeli teenagers were kidnapped and murdered right? Go tell their families to their face that Hamas poses no threat to them. The funniest thing about this whole hand-waving is that a lot of you are complete hypocrites about it.

Pretty sure the only folks that have tied Hamas to that kidnapping are Israeli security services, and they've just insisted that we all trust them despite a complete lack of evidence.

Is this mismanaged attempt to tie the two together a simple matter of ignorance, or were you being intentionally disingenuous?

# ? Jul 8, 2014 11:08

ReV VAdAUL: Oct 3, 2004; I'm WILD about
WILDMAN

Volkerball posted:

Palestinians occasionally inflict property damage. Lol. You do realize this recent salvo started when 3 Israeli teenagers were kidnapped and murdered right?

There is, as yet, no proof that any Palestinians had anything to do with their deaths. Further more than 3 Palestinians died during the IDF "search" for the bodies, another Palestinian was burnt alive in retribution and dozens of Palestinians are going to die in the escalating IDF collective punishment air strikes.

But hey you then go on to spin the standard Zionist line of "if only the Palestinians would stop resisting and die quietly everything would be fine". West Bank Palestinians have felt no benefit from the Israeli government, who refuses to negotiate with them, or Israeli public under a leadership that is so quiescent as almost be Israeli puppets.

Nothing Palestinians can do will be good enough for Israel, there will always be some excuse to destroy them.

# ? Jul 8, 2014 11:30

Senjuro: Aug 19, 2006

ReV VAdAUL posted:

There is, as yet, no proof that any Palestinians had anything to do with their deaths.

The fact that it happened in the West Bank and that you can hear the murderer speaking Arabic and Hebrew with an Arabic accent probably means it was done by a Japanese person.

Come the gently caress on.

# ? Jul 8, 2014 11:38

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

The thing about rocket attacks is that it's not just Hamas who is launching them. It can be any of the other dozen militant groups in Gaza, or just a bunch of people with grievances. It's the only way for people to lash out against the oppressors and have some effect, even if it only makes things worse on the long run. Now, Hamas actually managed to stop them in the past, with amazing results which shows their control over Gaza (not sure if they are currently on top of the situation with so many heads assassinated).

This is what Israel gets from the Palestinians when it actually negotiates in good faith, and gives them enough resources and leeway to actually curb terrorism and militancy. Palestinians do have the capacity of stopping the political violence if they are given the chance.

Israel of course broke the ceasefire.

# ? Jul 8, 2014 11:41

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# ? May 31, 2024 05:41

AreWeDrunkYet: Jul 8, 2006

Senjuro posted:

The fact that it happened in the West Bank and that you can hear the murderer speaking Arabic and Hebrew with an Arabic accent probably means it was done by a Japanese person.

Not everyone that speaks Arabic is a member of Hamas, you do realize?

e: Nevermind, appears he was explicitly saying it wasn't Palestinians. He was responding to Volkerball though, who was justifying attacking Hamas with the kidnapping.

# ? Jul 8, 2014 11:44

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Israel Palestine Megathread: Chickenshitgate

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