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Agrajag posted:I'm pretty sure it is political suicide to even hint at Israel being "not right", in America. Only because the 65+ demographic, one of the whitest and most politically active demographics, panics when they hear criticism of Israel. Yes, because of people who won't be around in another decade.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:07
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7c Nickel posted:Israeli politics continues to degrade to the point that they elect a PM who publicly calls President Clinton a whore to Muslim dogs for suggesting the mildest possibly reform. I swear this escalation in antagonism toward its allies is slowly happening right now.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:10
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Why did sanctions on South Africa catch on? Wasn't it, like Israel, an unusually "Western", powerful and rich country for the region? Was it because there weren't a lot of Western enemies it enjoyed messing with?
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Jul 26, 2014 18:10
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Just wanted to say thanks for these donation links. I don't have much to give right now, but I was able to cough up $20 to Virgin Money Giving's Medical Aid for Palestinians, and I suggest anyone else with spare beer/coffee money do the same. Spreading the word and talking about Israel's war crimes is cool and all, but it's equally (if not more) cool to actively help the people suffering from Israel's bombings directly.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:11
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GlennFinito posted:I swear this escalation in antagonism toward its allies is slowly happening right now. Just look at this episode from the beginning of the year: --- Ya'alon's office issues letter of apology to Kerry The defense minister 'apologizes if the secretary was offended by words attributed to the minister,' letter says. Israeli official reports Netanyahu contacted US top official in attempt to smooth over controversy sparked by defense minister's comments The office of Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon issued a statment on Tuesday, saying: "Israel and the United states share a common goal to advance the peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians led by Secretary Kerry. "We appreciate Secretary Kerry's many efforts towards that end. The defense minister had no intention to cause any offense to the secretary, and he apologizes if the secretary was offended by words attributed to the minister." Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu spoke by phone with a senior US official in a bid to smooth over a diplomatic controversy sparked by comments attributed to Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon, an Israeli official said on condition of anonymity. The official added that Ya'alon also discussed the matter with US Ambassador Dan Shapiro. Earlier on Tuesday, Yedioth Ahronoth reported that the defense minister suggested that US Secretary of State John Kerry's quest for Israeli-Palestinian peace was messianic and obsessive. "The remarks of the Defense Minister (Moshe Ya'alon), if accurate, are offensive and inappropriate especially given all that the United States is doing to support Israel's security needs," State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said in a brief statement that constituted a rare rebuke to close ally Israel. "To question Secretary Kerry's motives and distort his proposals is not something we would expect from the defense minister of a close ally," White House spokesman Jay Carney said. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu stressed that "The United States is our greatest ally," noting: "We are working in cooperation with the US president, the vice president… and the secretary of state. We are making efforts to promote peace, security, and stability in the region. We maintain our interest, while cultivating this important tie between the two nations. We strive to reach a true peace accord. We do not want a bi-national state but we also don’t want an Iran-backed state that will try to annihilate the State of Israel. President Shimon Peres also expressed his support of Kerry, saying: "Our ties with the United States are of great strategic value to the State of Israel. We thank the president of the United States, Barack Obama, for his responsiveness to our security and intelligence needs. There is no doubt that he wants to see a Mideast that lives in peace. Secretary Kerry's unusual determination to achieve peace reflects and serves Israel's deep desire for peace and give a chance for a mutual understanding. Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman also commented on Ya'alon's comments against Kerry: "Israel and the United States have a special bond. The US is Israel's bravest ally and has proved that many times. "Having a public, boisterous debate is not right and it does not contribute to either of the parties. There is no place for personal attacks, even if there are occasional disagreements." Liberman added. Earlier Tuesday, Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon made remarks about US Secretary of State John Kerry, calling his efforts "misplaced obsession and messianic fervor. His words sparked a rash of furious comments in the Knesset's hallways on Tuesday, with chief negotiator Tzipi Livni accusing him of damaging bilateral relations. Ya'alon expressed his great skepticism of Kerry and the US's efforts, both in private conversations in Israel and in the US. "The American security plan presented to us is not worth the paper it's written on," Ya'alon said. "It contains no peace and no security. Only our continued presence in Judea and Samaria and the Jordan River will endure that Ben-Gurion Airport and Netanya don't become targets for rockets from every direction. " He called Kerry's passion out of place. "American Secretary of State John Kerry, who turned up here determined and acting out of misplaced obsession and messianic fervor, cannot teach me anything about the conflict with the Palestinians." --- Note that Lieberman called out Ya'alon's remarks. Yes, Avigdor "Brazil is a Diplomatic Dwarf" Lieberman. (PS: Lieberman himself did not say it, that was the FM spokesperson, who was not then fired, so it's probably a genuine sentiment)
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Jul 26, 2014 18:16
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OwlBot 2000 posted:Only because the 65+ demographic, one of the whitest and most politically active demographics, panics when they hear criticism of Israel. Yes, because of people who won't be around in another decade. Do we live in a different world or something? Life expectancy is increasing. 65 used to be the threshold of death, now people are easily living for decades after this. And they're going to become increasingly more right wing and racist, not to mention that that particular demographic is being topped up constantly due to an aging population. This isn't a problem that is going away anytime soon.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:16
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Ddraig posted:Do we live in a different world or something? Life expectancy is increasing. 65 used to be the threshold of death, now people are easily living for decades after this. And they're going to become increasingly more right wing and racist, not to mention that that particular demographic is being topped up constantly due to an aging population. Ye have little faith in millenials.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:17
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How much aid does America send to Israel? Is it a significant amount?
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Jul 26, 2014 18:21
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Ddraig posted:Do we live in a different world or something? Life expectancy is increasing. 65 used to be the threshold of death, now people are easily living for decades after this. And they're going to become increasingly more right wing and racist, not to mention that that particular demographic is being topped up constantly due to an aging population. Life expectancy is 78.5 last I checked, so a large number of people in the 65+ (please remember the +) will, statistically, not be around in ten to fourteen years. Opinion is shifting and nearly down the middle for people around 50 years old, and less than half of Americans in their 40s are see Israel as justified.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:22
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Agrajag posted:How much aid does America send to Israel? Is it a significant amount? 8.5 million dollars every day. Kind of a significant amount. I don't know. Maybe.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:23
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Agrajag posted:How much aid does America send to Israel? Is it a significant amount? The military aid alone in Obama's 2014 budget is 3.4 billion dollars. The US also provides economic aid to Israel which they use to subsidize things such as R&D. Israel also accounts for over half of the total military aid that the US sends to other countries.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:27
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Silverstein is not the most reliable of journalists but I thought this was interesting: http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2014/07/26/israel-murders-idf-soldier-to-prevent-his-kidnapping/
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Jul 26, 2014 18:29
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So did the US vote against the U.N. Human Rights investigation veto it, or will the investigation take place? If so, when.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:31
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OwlBot 2000 posted:So did the US vote against the U.N. Human Rights investigation veto it, or will the investigation take place? If so, when. Voted against, the only country to do so in fact. No idea as to when it'll be carried out but it looks like the investigation is in the works.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:33
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The US only has veto power in the Security Council, so the investigation will take place. I'm not really sure when, or what it could possibly accomplish.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:33
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OwlBot 2000 posted:Life expectancy is 78.5 last I checked, so a large number of people in the 65+ (please remember the +) will, statistically, not be around in ten to fourteen years. Opinion is shifting and nearly down the middle for people around 50 years old, and less than half of Americans in their 40s are see Israel as justified. I'm sure the Palestinians will be comforted to know that the US will stop backing Israel if they just wait through another two decades of this.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:36
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Amarkov posted:The US only has veto power in the Security Council, so the investigation will take place. I'm not really sure when, or what it could possibly accomplish. Probably something along the lines of another Goldstone report. Maybe they'll get another "self-hating" Jew to chair this investigation too!
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Jul 26, 2014 18:37
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New Division posted:I'm sure the Palestinians will be comforted to know that the US will stop backing Israel if they just wait through another two decades of this. Do you think people won't try to make it happen sooner? And no one has asked the Palestinians to wait patiently, if anything the knowledge that support for their foe is rapidly evaporating and all but guaranteed to disappear by the time current West Bank protesters turn 30 will add to their confidence and will to resist.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:41
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aBagorn posted:-Hamas Charter One says "No Israel, everything from the Jordan to the Sea must be an Islamic state." The other says "No Palestine, everything from the Jordan to the Sea must be a Jewish state."
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Jul 26, 2014 18:43
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GaussianCopula posted:That is pretty much the attitude of the IDF going back to the 6day war or Yom Kippur war. You always try to achieve as much as possible before you are stopped. If you are a horrible monster with no soul, then yes, this is true. Agrajag posted:I'll eat my own cum if this ever happens. You can toxx me on that. I also too  my account, on the condition that a mod forces Agrajag to video tape and share it with SomethingAwful or face a permaban. 
Teriyaki Koinku fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Jul 26, 2014 |
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Jul 26, 2014 18:44
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Elotana posted:The easiest way to counter "herp derp 1988 Hamas charter" is with the original 1977 Likud platform. There are a lot of people who think the first one is horrible but the second one is totally fine.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:50
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DarkCrawler posted:Be prepared. Nothing lasts forever. Israel is one United States away from becoming the 21st century's South Africa...which is remarkably close to actual South Africa. To be fair, nobody ever had to invest in South Africa in order to meet the prerequisites for eternal salvation.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:53
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OwlBot 2000 posted:Life expectancy is 78.5 last I checked, so a large number of people in the 65+ (please remember the +) will, statistically, not be around in ten to fourteen years. Opinion is shifting and nearly down the middle for people around 50 years old, and less than half of Americans in their 40s are see Israel as justified. Ignoring everything else (which I agree with), you wouldn't want to use life expectancy for this sort of thing since life expectancy is life expectancy at birth. For this sort of thing you'd want to use an actuarial life table. Average years of life remaining for someone who is 65 is 17.51 years, bringing them to an expected age of death of 82.51 years on average (mean). Average years of life remaining for someone who is 66 is 16.79 years, bringing them to 82.79 years on average. This is a common used thing in various psuedoscience snake oil nonsense, you'll often see things saying things like "People who use Dr. Blahblah's snakeskin adult diapers live 5 years longer than average!" but the claims often mean nothing more than the average age of the customer tends to have an expected years remaining of just that length. I realize this isn't really all that relevant, since obviously a significant number of the current 65+ population will statistically not be around regardless, and I agree with you.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:57
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Thank you for the clarification, fermun.
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Jul 26, 2014 19:05
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Paul MaudDib posted:People have nitpicked basically every video from the conflict, like the guy looking for his family who was murdered by the Israeli sniper was supposedly fake because there was distortion in the video for a second and people didn't think the bang sounded right. CSM fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Jul 26, 2014 |
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Jul 26, 2014 19:22
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Berk Berkly posted:Not sure if this was shared in the thread earlier but this is what the "Knock and Drop" Bombing looks like: You get a lot more than a couple seconds, at least from this video. Looks like there's at least a fast-forward around the 21second mark (shadows move as day goes on, smoke from knock clears), so that might not be immediately clear. It doesn't look to actually be cut though. Still a pretty impressive look at what a missile strike looks like here. Edit: And whoops, other people have posted to the thread since that, that's what I get for getting distracted. :V GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Jul 26, 2014 |
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Jul 26, 2014 19:22
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Here's an interesting Thing I Read re: tunnels http://palestine-studies.org/journals.aspx?id=11424&jid=1&href=fulltext I'm not totally familiar with the source, so I can't speak to its reliability. The anti-Hamas bit that seems to be catching recently is this section "During a police patrol that the author was permitted to accompany in December 2011, nothing was done to impede the use of children in the tunnels, where, much as in Victorian coal mines, they are prized for their nimble bodies. At least 160 children have been killed in the tunnels, according to Hamas officials. Safety controls on imports appear similarly lax, although the TAC insists that a sixteen-man contingent carries out sporadic spot-checks." It seems to be pretty damning that Hamas did this, though to be fair I don't think that the majority of the people are trying to paint them as the 'good guys' so much as Israel the 'worse guys'
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Jul 26, 2014 19:22
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Contrary to popular belief not every Palestinian is Hamas. I may be wrong, but that is my understanding of things.
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Jul 26, 2014 19:25
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Volkerball posted:The Israeli police have been pretty lenient with the protests so far. The safety of the protesters can't be guaranteed at all, and cops have been sticking themselves in between counter protesters throwing rocks and left wing protesters on a daily basis for a while.
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Jul 26, 2014 19:29
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So apparently there was a Gaza solidarity rally outside CNN studios in Atlanta yesterday. Based on accounts from those that attended it was a peaceful demonstration with a racially and religiously diverse crowd:  And then you had the pro-Israeli counterprotesters:  who are indistinguishable from the reactionary lunatics hanging out with Cliven Bundy over in Bunkerville, NV. They just swapped out their Gadsden flags for Israeli ones. The I/P conflict has always been a polarizing issue, but based on recent polls and photographic evidence like this it looks like it's increasingly becoming split along established ideological lines.
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Jul 26, 2014 19:32
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Skyl3lazer posted:Here's an interesting Thing I Read re: tunnels Given that the IDF can't destroy the tunnels with aerial bombardment but will kill children in schools and hospitals indiscriminately letting them stay down there is statistically safer.
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Jul 26, 2014 19:33
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FRINGE posted:Ive lost track of who's serious and not again, but just in case you were serious you should watch Defamation. He gets to spend some time with the people that run the ADL (Abe Foxman, etc), and its pretty telling the way they explain their "mission". The most telling fact for me was that the ADL had almost no relationship to the left wing parliament in Israel when they were in power. This really is about silencing critics of right wing policies. There's also another part where the filmmaker is asking simple questions and right on camera two people aligned with the ADL proceed to start characterizing him according to their own stereotypes of Israel critics, and talking about him TO HIS FACE in a dehumanizing third-person way so they can more easily dismiss him. 'Oh, you see what he's doing? He's a blah blah blah (insert bullshit strawman characterization of behavior here.)' It was really transparent just how dishonest they were - at least those two people on camera anyway. To be fair, the other most frustrating part of the film for me was some African-Americans advocating reading the protocols of the elders of zion and insisting it was factual. Morons. Spacedad fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Jul 26, 2014 |
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Jul 26, 2014 19:38
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Silverstein is not the most reliable of journalists but I thought this was interesting: http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2014/07/26/israel-murders-idf-soldier-to-prevent-his-kidnapping/ I don't know if this particular story is true, didn't hear anything about it. But shooting the hostage when all else fails is part of the IDF's Hannibal Procedure, orders for dealing with a kidnapping.
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Jul 26, 2014 19:39
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Spacedad posted:The most telling fact for me was that the ADL had almost no relationship to the left wing parliament in Israel when they were in power. This really is about silencing critics of right wing policies. After it was screened at the Tribeca Film Festival, the Anti-Defamation League issued a statement denouncing the film, stating that it "belittles the issue (of antisemitism) ... and cheapens the Holocaust. It is Shamir's perverse, personal, political perspective and a missed opportunity to document a serious and important issue."
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Jul 26, 2014 19:42
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etalian posted:After it was screened at the Tribeca Film Festival, the Anti-Defamation League issued a statement denouncing the film, stating that it "belittles the issue (of antisemitism) ... and cheapens the Holocaust. It is Shamir's perverse, personal, political perspective and a missed opportunity to document a serious and important issue." His film was watching the watchmen so to speak. Naturally the watchmen think he shouldn't be watching them.
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Jul 26, 2014 19:45
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Rhesus Pieces posted:So apparently there was a Gaza solidarity rally outside CNN studios in Atlanta yesterday. Based on accounts from those that attended it was a peaceful demonstration with a racially and religiously diverse crowd:  At first it looked like he has the best beard in the world.
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Jul 26, 2014 19:46
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Spacedad posted:film for me was some African-Americans advocating reading the protocols of the elders of zion and insisting it was factual. Morons. Got to admit, it's a pretty great hoax when people are still falling for it 111 years later.
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Jul 26, 2014 19:54
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immolationsex posted:Aww, it's just another guy standing in front of sunglasses guy. Meanwhile on the Pro-occupation side of the rally:  "Are we the baddies?"
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Jul 26, 2014 19:54
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Rhesus Pieces posted:So apparently there was a Gaza solidarity rally outside CNN studios in Atlanta yesterday. Based on accounts from those that attended it was a peaceful demonstration with a racially and religiously diverse crowd: I know South Africa gets brought up a lot, but wasn't there was quite a clear ideological divide over it during the 70s-80s in a similar fashion? So does anyone have any info on how the Egyptian populace is taking this? From all polls I have seen there is almost zero-support for Israel in Egypt while Sisi has been pretty buddy buddy. I wonder how strong the Sisi regime is at this point even with complete repression.
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Jul 26, 2014 19:55
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Have we gotten a reason (not that they really need one) that Hamas rejected the 4 hour extension?
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Jul 26, 2014 19:56
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