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drunkill posted:Card games can't be rigged on what cards you get. Yes they could remove rare cards but it is still random and any rigging would take those cards out of the pool for everyone purchasing booster packs. While that's true, in what way does that effect whether or not they are a form of gambling? Plenty of games that are traditionally in the gambling camp aren't "rigged".
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Nov 22, 2017 18:40
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I would be way more into card games if I could just pay like $60 or something dumb, and just make the decks I want. If they're worried a lot of cards won't get used, do some weird gimmick gametypes once a week with premade decks where they are used done
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Nov 22, 2017 18:42
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A lot of cards are intended to be unplayable and are just pack filler.
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Nov 22, 2017 18:46
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chumbler posted:A lot of cards are intended to be unplayable and are just pack filler. thats dumb tho
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Nov 22, 2017 18:48
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drunkill posted:Card games can't be rigged on what cards you get. Yes they could remove rare cards but it is still random and any rigging would take those cards out of the pool for everyone purchasing booster packs. I actually wasn't even thinking about the card game aspect when it comes to trading cards, maybe mtg wasn't the best example. Baseball cards for example aren't part of any actual card game but there is still a gambling aspect involved in purchasing a pack of baseball cards in the sense that a given pack could include cards from a limited set that would be much more valuable.
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Nov 22, 2017 18:48
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chumbler posted:A lot of cards are intended to be unplayable and are just pack filler. eonwe posted:thats dumb tho It's funny reading their justifications for printing objectively poo poo rares (lookin at you, Alabaster Leech) https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/when-cards-go-bad-2002-01-28 That's from 15 years ago, so yeah this problem is oooooools as the hills. quote:“Bad” cards reward the more skilled player. 
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Nov 22, 2017 18:51
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I doubt it matters on a legal basis whether the stuff you get from your lootboxes is "only cosmetic". It's a tired excuse that sidesteps the actual issue. There is an implied value attached to these items, they are marketed and have appeal to the customers, and they sell this stuff off in a glorified raffle, because they get more money from making people gamble on the thing they value, rather than just selling the product directly. Sell a skin for five bucks or make them gamble twenty bucks and give them some crap they only had ancillary interest in. Since distribution of these items costs nothing they'll make more money with the latter. The customer will still feel like they made a good deal because all these skins are neat and their secondary waifu is now also looking fabulous. It's absolutely irrelevant to the gambling discussion whether it's a "Megagun of Winning" you draw from your lootbox or if it's "Bikini Tracer V3.2". "It's only cosmetic" is an empty excuse that means nothing, because it doesn't matter to any lawmaker whether or not a game is pay to win. Pay to win is perfectly legal. Some video gamer people care about that, but why would a gouvernment? What matters is the psychological exploitation of people and this content being unregulated and easily accessible to minors. Which are barred from gambling in most civilised countries. They don't even need a credit card or an ID to waste their allowance on lootboxes because you can buy Blizzard Bux or Steam Cash at the convenience store. You don't get to reap the benefits of setting your business up like a casino but then avoid having to do your due diligence when it comes to controlling your clientele and making sure you fall within gouvernmental regulations in regards to gambling.
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Nov 22, 2017 18:52
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precision posted:It's funny reading their justifications for printing objectively poo poo rares (lookin at you, Alabaster Leech) That was a really good read. I get where they're coming from and why it is the way it is for physical card games. But still, for PC games you have the ability to rebalance this stuff. I'd still be much more likely to play card games if I could just buy the cards and make my decks instead of being locked out of fun decks because there is one really rare card thats pretty needed. (Looking at you hearthstone)
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Nov 22, 2017 18:57
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precision posted:You may well be right, I'm just saying I'd like to have definite confirmation one way or the other if this is something credit card companies have an issue with - like I said, almost nobody can use their credit card in casinos. Overwatch is clever though. Personally, I find I'll have my "favorite" characters (personality and playstyle) and I want to have their skins and emotes. The game also throws all those cosmetics in your face all the time. "Oooh, the main menu shows a witch mercy costume! The opposing team's Lucio is dressed like a hockey player! Look at all the cool skins the winning team is wearing" so when one comes along that you really want (cause you really like that character and the event is only for 2 weeks) you're more easily duped into paying for loot boxes. Ashamed but I admit, I paid 40 bucks for loot boxes largely to get the "witch" and "nurse" Mercy skins.  I wish the Overwatch crates had better returns for duplicates, but at least Blizzard gives you the option of saving up for that one skin...it'll just take a really long time. I'm also guilty of looking at other players in Destiny 2, cause the end game is all about fashion. Never spent a cent on Destiny 2, though. I might just be lucky but I'm pretty happy with my Bright Engram returns. The hidden timers, caps and limited event engrams...that's a whole different insidious story but they're not pushing you to buy Bright Engrams. Well, the timers and caps on EXP might. Now Battlefield 1, there's a game where I don't understand the cosmetics. They're gun skins, but the game is so dark and muddy, you'll never SEE the skin on the other player's gun so they have to put a big icon on the kill screen to say "HEY, THEYRE USING THIS SKIN!". It honestly would not have surprised me if at some point you could totally customize your soldier (which would work, it was WW1) with mustaches, different helmets or capes but it got cut due to being difficult to implement.
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Nov 22, 2017 19:01
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chumbler posted:The problem with loot boxes really shouldn't have to go beyond "Buying a thing that has a chance to be the thing you want is inherently worse and more exploitative than just buying the thing you want, and that is unacceptable." There is absolutely nothing positive that loot boxes do for games that could not be done in a more consumer friendly way. Microtransactions of other sorts are a separate conversation, but there really should be nobody even attempting to defend loot boxes. I expect we'll see a rise in the pay to not wait model, but I think that will go over like a lead balloon since it's way more obvious what they're doing and doesn't push the gambling buttons. I don't like Overwatch not letting you straight up buy something for real cash. Then they have duplicates and time limited items where they also jack the price up 3x. It's just a cash grab to drain crafting currency and keep people rolling their RNG.
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Nov 22, 2017 19:07
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Snuffman posted:I wish the Overwatch crates had better returns for duplicates, but at least Blizzard gives you the option of saving up for that one skin...it'll just take a really long time. But gently caress you if you don't have the in-game gold and it's a limited timed event... Best get buying some crates for it.
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Nov 22, 2017 19:10
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Have lootboxes but recognize them for what they are: gambling. So just like in gambling: 18+ requirement and odds of winning controlled and disclosed so people know what they're getting into. Maybe a special category has to be created for lootboxes just like there exist several gambling categories in the US law so that the subject matter is addressed taking into account the medium's specifics. The lack of regulation lets the game publishers go 'nanana, we won't tell you the odds but trust us *wink wink*'. Bring regulations and it will be better for the consumer. Don't let kids gamble, no poo poo (they could still get around to it just like they can with any age restricted good but the restriction will at least throw some hurdles). Also of course publishers will try coming up with a million ways of circumventing the law but so what, chase them, some big corpos will have to give up because of PR, we'll get better games out of this. Palpek fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Nov 22, 2017 |
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Nov 22, 2017 19:13
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Yeah, Destiny 2 has many problems but I never felt the need to spend a cent on Bright Engrams; you get so many Shaders at such a steady rate as it is, and I got lucky with getting the Legendary emotes as well. I only played it for 3 or 4 weeks, an hour or two a day, and I had already gotten tons of them.
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Nov 22, 2017 19:24
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I honestly am tired of lootboxes, cosmetics only or no. Its a bad design choice because they are making content that you just can't get unless you are lucky. I just want to go back to having games where if they put something in the game I have a realistic chance at getting it. Its not going to happen and I guess I'd settle for regulating age and forcing people to show odds, but I'm just a bit tired of it by this point.
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Nov 22, 2017 19:26
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eonwe posted:I would be way more into card games if I could just pay like $60 or something dumb, and just make the decks I want. If they're worried a lot of cards won't get used, do some weird gimmick gametypes once a week with premade decks where they are used That's how Netrunner does it. You buy a card set and you get these specific cards in it, like how other games have starter decks but that's how the whole game works. You buy 2 sets and you can mix and match the cards.
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Nov 22, 2017 20:13
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Someone mentioned this on the first page, but what's crazy to me is how expensive this poo poo is. Not a lootbox, but the first microtransaction I can remember being very apparent to me was when WoW announced they'd have mounts (cosmetic) that were cash only. It was kind of eye-rolly but w/e, people can buy their shiny horse. Then I saw that it was $25, which felt insane at the time. Plenty of people had it the next day of course. I just can't imagine how anyone who isn't wealthy is regularly dropping $ on any of this poo poo. I play Hearthstone quite a bit and I'll occasionally buy packs but I've spent under $100 for a game I've been playing for 3 or 4 years, so the value doesn't feel out of whack. But then I see people with all golden decks or read how much some goons have spent and I'm flabbergasted.
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Nov 22, 2017 20:17
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ultrachrist posted:Someone mentioned this on the first page, but what's crazy to me is how expensive this poo poo is. Not a lootbox, but the first microtransaction I can remember being very apparent to me was when WoW announced they'd have mounts (cosmetic) that were cash only. It was kind of eye-rolly but w/e, people can buy their shiny horse. Then I saw that it was $25, which felt insane at the time. Plenty of people had it the next day of course. I just can't imagine how anyone who isn't wealthy is regularly dropping $ on any of this poo poo. I play Hearthstone quite a bit and I'll occasionally buy packs but I've spent under $100 for a game I've been playing for 3 or 4 years, so the value doesn't feel out of whack. But then I see people with all golden decks or read how much some goons have spent and I'm flabbergasted. I'm reminded of the craigslist ad where a woman wanted to trade sex for an epic mount  It sounds like an urban legend or stdh.txt though.
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Nov 22, 2017 20:33
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Depending on how big the guy was, maybe he was the epic mount
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Nov 22, 2017 20:34
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Slime posted:That's how Netrunner does it. You buy a card set and you get these specific cards in it, like how other games have starter decks but that's how the whole game works. You buy 2 sets and you can mix and match the cards. Duelyst also does this with its newer expansions. You can pay $20 for 3 of every card from the expansion, or you can buy packs (with real money or in-game currency) that are cheaper and will only ever give you cards you don't already have 3 of.
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Nov 22, 2017 20:43
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Xad posted:Duelyst also does this with its newer expansions. You can pay $20 for 3 of every card from the expansion, or you can buy packs (with real money or in-game currency) that are cheaper and will only ever give you cards you don't already have 3 of. That is legit cool as hell and a good way to handle it
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Nov 22, 2017 20:43
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Gambling boxes should stay in the industry because if consenting adults want to piss their money away then fine but it absolutely needs to be as heavily regulated as any other form of traditional gambling. Needs to be monitored to ensure the odds aren't being manipulated by the house, take a page from China and have the % of everything listed and don't let anyone below the age of consent in the door or be able to purchase the product that delivers it. So what I'm saying is FIFA should be 18+, along with most other freemium style experiences. Oh hey looks like that might be happening https://powerup-gaming.com/2017/11/22/victorian-gambling-authority-loot-boxes-gambling/ DancingShade fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Nov 22, 2017 |
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Nov 22, 2017 20:58
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I can't wait for a AAA gambling game by EA or a similar publisher to be refused classification by the ratings board.
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Nov 22, 2017 21:15
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DancingShade posted:So what I'm saying is FIFA should be 18+, along with most other freemium style experiences. I didn't even realize that there were microtransactions in EA sport games until I got NHL18 on a whim, and looked at the online multiplayer and realized it was all about card packs and building teams. I guess I just assumed people would just pick their favorite teams and play online but card packs and building a "dream team" makes a lot of sense, synergy wise. A real, "Why didn't I think of that" moment: Literally combine trading card packs with a sports game. I'm surprised that EA sports games "Create a team DLC" didn't cause more of a stir (I haven't looked too much into it so maybe the prices and drop rates are fair? IDK  ) in the past. They've been around a while now, haven't they?Surely having a team of fully stacked all-stars is going to play better than a team of no-bodies, or does player-skill mostly trump in-game character skill?* Its seems sort of like the thing that bugged me the most about Star Wars: How in your face the star cards are. Whenever you die, it gets shoved in your face that this person is using X cards. Did you get killed because you were dumb? Were they a better player? Or...was it the star cards? I imagine Ultimate Team in NHL18 would drive me up the wall. "Was that goal bullshit? Did they skate better? Or is it literally because they paid for better cards than me"? Good thing I'm content to just play season mode in single player.  I wouldn't know because I only play single-player on semi-pro and let me tell you, the Canucks are not having a great season. 
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Nov 22, 2017 21:18
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I'm actually pretty happy there are some real moves toward regulating this type of thing the last few days. Its making more and more games dogshit as time goes on
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Nov 22, 2017 21:21
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It turns out Konami's pachinko business is more video games than people give them credit for, they're just ahead of the curve. In the future you'll put your VR gear on and go to a virtual CS:GO slot machine parlor and pull the lever to make skins fall out. I'm betting Valve already has a prototype running on Vive.
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Nov 22, 2017 21:23
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eonwe posted:I actually thought battlefront 2's implementation was bad but mostly tolerable, but I also recognize that its only the beginning as far as what developers would like to do. The dumbest thing about Battlefront 2 is that they could have just used Cosmetics and/or Cosmetic loot boxes and made more money. Because if LOL and DOTA proved anything it is that men between the ages of 15 and 35 will pay an rear end load of money to play pretty princess dress up with their toys. Third World Reggin posted:Personally I would like cosmetics in loot boxes, but I am pretty sure we can't have that when government steps in and creates a law about this. A ton of that has to do with SoE being perpetually told to spike revenue for one quarter so they could be sold off for more. So all design principals went out the window about 6 months after launch.
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Nov 22, 2017 21:25
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I think loot boxes are a neat idea that have been murdered by monetization. I love the idea of rewarding players with meta things like cosmetics or whatever. There are ways that it is detrimental though, like when you can only get them by spending money is a big one, even if its just there is a way to get them in-game but you only get one every few weeks or whatever the gently caress or when they're providing things that give you game advantages. I think Overwatch does them pretty well.
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Nov 22, 2017 21:28
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Xae posted:The dumbest thing about Battlefront 2 is that they could have just used Cosmetics and/or Cosmetic loot boxes and made more money.
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Nov 22, 2017 21:30
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Palpek posted:It turns out Konami's pachinko business is more video games than people give them credit for, they're just ahead of the curve. Add in some virtual teledildonics and count me in
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Nov 22, 2017 21:31
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Snuffman posted:I didn't even realize that there were microtransactions in EA sport games until I got NHL18 on a whim, and looked at the online multiplayer and realized it was all about card packs and building teams. I don't know massive amounts about how FIFA works, but I do know that there is real in-game trading and selling of player cards you don't need or want so it does have a slight edge over poo poo like the boxes in BF2 and would go someway to explain how it's flown under the radar for 10 years.
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Nov 22, 2017 21:39
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Xad posted:Duelyst also does this with its newer expansions. You can pay $20 for 3 of every card from the expansion, or you can buy packs (with real money or in-game currency) that are cheaper and will only ever give you cards you don't already have 3 of. I really wish Hearthstone would do a $50 for every card in the expansion or free to play your way with loot boxes. Instead you need about $150 of loot boxes to get most of the cards, there's three expansions a year and after two years your cards are unusable in the main mode and you can recycle them for 1/4 value. They could keep the current model if they were far more generous with crafting costs.
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Nov 22, 2017 21:41
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Flytrap posted:Most major stores don't even carry AO rated games at all on principal. Wal-Mart, GameStop, basically everything except for specific online stores. Correction: Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo all consider an ESRB AO an instant certification failure. The AO rating is roughly equivilant to getting a Refused Classification elsewhere: a de-facto ban. That's why any proposal to mandate an AO rating (rather than a M rating) is a non-starter.
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Nov 22, 2017 21:50
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Delusibeta posted:Correction: Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo all consider an ESRB AO an instant certification failure. The AO rating is roughly equivilant to getting a Refused Classification elsewhere: a de-facto ban. That's why any proposal to mandate an AO rating (rather than a M rating) is a non-starter. Games that rely heavily on real money gambling should be AO / R18+. Might be a non starter for the companies who make such games but I'm sure lawmakers and gambling commissions won't see it that way.
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Nov 22, 2017 21:52
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eonwe posted:I'm actually pretty happy there are some real moves toward regulating this type of thing the last few days. Its making more and more games dogshit as time goes on Yep. gently caress these companies they (your Blizzard, your EAs) know exactly what they're doing and not only that you get the companies who mimic them (hey they must know what they're doing we should do it too) and it has made games shittier and shittier. Making fun enjoyable games is hard, exploiting people is much easier.
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Nov 22, 2017 21:52
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If you asked me a couple months ago I was fine with loot boxes with cosmetics like Overwatch. I don't give a poo poo about cosmetics, my reaction to getting a crate was always "neat, back to the game" and I've never felt the urge to actually spend money on more boxes. But I changed my mind when someone asked me "give a good reason why I can't buy the specific items I want" and, well, I don't have one! Even at its most benevolent the system is designed to exploit people who MUST have it all. These same people will happily spend hundreds of dollars on a chance to win but would not spend a hundred dollars if they could actually buy it all.eonwe posted:I would be way more into card games if I could just pay like $60 or something dumb, and just make the decks I want. If they're worried a lot of cards won't get used, do some weird gimmick gametypes once a week with premade decks where they are used Fantasy Flight is a company that started (well, trademarked) the "Living Card Game" where all products contain a known quantity of cards. This itself has lead to its own gross practices like of course giving you one copy of a good card so you have to buy 4 copies of Base Set A to get what you need, but you know exactly what you're buying and how many you're getting.
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Nov 22, 2017 22:07
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What breaks my brain are people who play Magic and don't just use proxies for literally every Rare or Mythic they don't own. Unless you're playing in an actual tournament you do not need to spend loving $20 or more on a goddamn Dual Land and if you think you do, you're an idiot. If that's what you want to spend money on, go nuts. But to think "oh no I have to spend $200 making a deck or the nerds at the nerd store won't let me play with them" is just moronic.
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Nov 22, 2017 22:18
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precision posted:What breaks my brain are people who play Magic and don't just use proxies for literally every Rare or Mythic they don't own. Unless you're playing in an actual tournament you do not need to spend loving $20 or more on a goddamn Dual Land and if you think you do, you're an idiot. Playing with friends is a different story, but card shop events that reward packs or have some sort of larger ranking are subject to wotc's rules, which one would presume prohibit proxies.
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Nov 22, 2017 22:28
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The prices aren't that weird to me, do you never buy useless crap you don't actually need just for fun? Like a rose bouquet costs about 30$ and that's literally something useless you'll throw away in a few days yet people still buy flowers all the time. The 25$ mount is at least yours forever.
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Nov 22, 2017 22:47
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You know what's funny? Over the years I spent playing Dota 2, I've probably spent more on cosmetics in that game than I have in any other by a significant margin. But I almost never bought the lootboxes, I was just spending money on the steam market to buy cosmetics I actually wanted. I really don't care about spending a little bit of cash on a game I enjoy to get something that looks cool. What I hate is throwing money into a glorified slot machine that will probably spit out something I did not even want.
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Nov 22, 2017 22:57
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Avalerion posted:The prices aren't that weird to me, do you never buy useless crap you don't actually need just for fun? Like a rose bouquet costs about 30$ and that's literally something useless you'll throw away in a few days yet people still buy flowers all the time. The 25$ mount is at least yours forever. I'm in the same mindset there, if companies want to put cosmetic poo poo up for actual prices, no in game currency, no loot crates just "buy this non-game affecting poo poo for a stupid price" then go hog wild. I've seen some comparisons to Train Simulator or even, in EA's stable, The Sims but that's the perfect model for me. Yeah it costs $3000 to buy all the DLC and content but it's analogous to the actual hobbies they represent. Someone building a dolls house isn't going to buy every single piece of furniture they can, they buy the furniture they want for that house. I'm happy with that model and if some train loving rich doctor wants to buy every single goddamn engine in the digital shed then go nuts!
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Nov 22, 2017 23:00
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