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ThePutty posted:Here's a couple of ideas I had, they're pretty basic. For whatever reason, I can't see either of your flags.
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Aug 19, 2012 13:38
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Spiderfist Island posted:Alright, here's my try (tries) at Democratic France. I see France in AzeriLP not being much like the modern version– more like Austria–Hungary in terms of all the different national identities. That's a pretty great idea - Burgundy is in a similar situation as Austria-Hungary (minus a mess of slavic sub-groups) and will eventually have to come to terms with the Burgundian/Occitan divide. I could definitely see Espanya and Britain deciding to prop up Occitan and Breton separatists states if matters come to a head. Azerbaijan has the same problem with Armenia, but with the added problem of a million other minority groups. Here's hoping maximum toleration leads to a United States of Asia! Going back over the State of the World I was kind of surprised that all the major European states minus Italy ended up with Constitutional Monarchies in the end - I would have thought there would have been more reactionary governments from the decades of German revolution.
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Aug 19, 2012 15:26
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Kainser posted:The French revolution failed in real life but that didn't stop red white blue from becoming the colours of the revolution. Yeah, what I was getting at was that red, white and blue aren't even colors of revolution in this world, and the new Russian colors would be the colors of the revolution since it not only was larger, but it succeeded, so tricolor flags should either be incorporating red, white and yellow, or some other colors of national importance. Also, tricolors are boring  E: Speaking of the whole Burgundy-> France thing, what will happen if tolerant Azeri goes democratic? Aren't Azeri a minority as of the end of EU3? Would they turn into Armenia, or is there some larger group? EE: Nope. Greeks make up the plurality of Azerbaijan. I'm thinking if Burgundy would have a problem calling itself Burgundy due to how few Burgundians there are, Azerbaijan will have the same problem. 
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Aug 19, 2012 15:26
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DrProsek posted:EE: Nope. Greeks make up the plurality of Azerbaijan. I'm thinking if Burgundy would have a problem calling itself Burgundy due to how few Burgundians there are, Azerbaijan will have the same problem.  e; and I think that 'proper Burgundians' are just frenchmen with a funny accent really, nothing on the level of Austria-Hungary or Azerbaijan.
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Aug 19, 2012 15:35
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Azerbaijan isn't hosed, we just need to go communist so everyone can enjoy class-based unity rather than that based on religion or language. After all, once everyone is an atheist and fights to distribute land amongst themselves they'll all be bros no matter what.
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Aug 19, 2012 15:36
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DrProsek posted:Yeah, what I was getting at was that red, white and blue aren't even colors of revolution in this world, and the new Russian colors would be the colors of the revolution since it not only was larger, but it succeeded, so tricolor flags should either be incorporating red, white and yellow, or some other colors of national importance. Technically the true test of the Russian revolution will be against Azerbaijan, Iran, China and the Mughal Empire. Let's tolerate the hell out of those revolutionaries and give them ample housing within our catacombs.
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Aug 19, 2012 15:37
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Kainser posted:To be fair so are those graphs just based on the amount of provinces which have that dominant religion/ethnicity. Minorities within provinces aren't represented. But yeah, that graph never gets old, Azerbaijan is hosed True, when converting Wiz could notice a lot of those Greek or Armenian provinces are sparsely populated and so Azeri people might be able to claw their way into second place, but still, looking at that graph alone, provinces with Greek and Armenian majorities outnumber Azeri pretty badly. Also, weren't Burdundians eastern Germans? Sure, conquering France probably influenced their culture a bit, but really they're Germans with funny accents  .The Saurus posted:Azerbaijan isn't hosed, we just need to go communist so everyone can enjoy class-based unity rather than that based on religion or language. After all, once everyone is an atheist and fights to distribute land amongst themselves they'll all be bros no matter what. Problem is, the communism represented in Victoria 2 is Soviet Union communism, and at the first sight of weakness, the Greeks and Armenians will want out as quickly as the Azeri wanted out of the Soviet Union in real history. Anarcho-Liberals are more what you want. ZearothK posted:Technically the true test of the Russian revolution will be against Azerbaijan, Iran, China and the Mughal Empire. Let's tolerate the hell out of those revolutionaries and give them ample housing within our catacombs. What good is their revolution if they can't take back all of their core lands. I say we march into Moskva, and show those confused Russians just how pointless this whole "revolution" nonsense is  .
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Aug 19, 2012 15:52
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DrProsek posted:E: Speaking of the whole Burgundy-> France thing, what will happen if tolerant Azeri goes democratic? Aren't Azeri a minority as of the end of EU3? Would they turn into Armenia, or is there some larger group? A United States of Asia It's certainly possible for big multi-ethnic states to survive and even thrive - look at India and Indonesia for example. But it certainly isn't going to happen with an Azeri minority ruling over the rest. Comedy option - found the ideology of 'MAXTOL,' spread it to all corners of Eurasia. All will be tolerated in the eyes of MAXTOL 
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Aug 19, 2012 15:53
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DrProsek posted:E: Speaking of the whole Burgundy-> France thing, what will happen if tolerant Azeri goes democratic? Aren't Azeri a minority as of the end of EU3? Would they turn into Armenia, or is there some larger group? Obviously azeri has a unifying national spirit, namely tolerance. We're good.
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Aug 19, 2012 16:02
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IIRC we were about to invade Russia when EUIII ended. So we are going to add some russian minorities to that population graph as well.
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Aug 19, 2012 16:02
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^^^^ More like lose a bunch of Khazar and Georgian minorities and maybe some of our Azerbaijani population.  DrProsek posted:Also, weren't Burdundians eastern Germans? Sure, conquering France probably influenced their culture a bit, but really they're Germans with funny accents Kainser fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Aug 19, 2012 |
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Aug 19, 2012 16:07
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Kanthulhu posted:IIRC we were about to invade Russia when EUIII ended. So we are going to add some russian minorities to that population graph as well. Luckily, the parts of Russia close to us are populated by our Tatar cousins, who would actually help our demographics. EDIT, and to make the demographic chart slightly less awful, Wiz said that the Khazars and Turks would start out as secondary cultures in Vicky 2. Bringing our accepted culture population up to...a full quarter of our total! Yeah, we're screwed. It also looks like the economic chart reinforced what I said to Rurik. We make wool, cloth, wine, and...small amounts of miscellaneous other things. Our economy pretty much has to be textile intensive. Patter Song fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Aug 19, 2012 |
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Aug 19, 2012 16:07
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Kainser posted:e; and I think that 'proper Burgundians' are just frenchmen with a funny accent really, nothing on the level of Austria-Hungary or Azerbaijan. DrProsek posted:Also, weren't Burdundians eastern Germans? Sure, conquering France probably influenced their culture a bit, but really they're Germans with funny accents Though if the Burgundians are just Germanics with funny accents, what about the French? They used to be Germanic as well.
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Aug 19, 2012 16:10
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Patter Song posted:Luckily, the parts of Russia close to us are populated by our Tatar cousins, who would actually help our demographics. Uh, I thought the Tartar-> Russian cultural conversion happened quite quickly and Russia has existed for a long time, more than enough to russianize those tartars actually. I may be wrong about the cultural spread speed or misremembering how things happened here though v  v I dunno.
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Aug 19, 2012 16:12
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Technically, you could almost say the same for Parisian French during the Victoria period. As far as I'm aware, it was during this period that Parisian French was enforced on the rest of France, where people spoke all kinds of different dialects/languages. The Burgundians doing the same with their own dialect should be possible, at least in their core territories. The more recently conquered north might be able to resist it better than southern France did in real life though. Eugen Weber's Peasants into Frenchmen is relevant: he makes the case that most of the transition you describe happened specifically between the rise of the Third Republic in 1871 and the start of World War I, arguing that the two dramatic elements of change were the Third Republic's universal education, where its teachers like Republican Missionaries, brought the language and culture of Paris to the provinces and ostracized those that didn't accept it, and universal conscription, which forced at least the men to all speak enough French to get through service.
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Aug 19, 2012 16:14
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Kanthulhu posted:Uh, I thought the Tartar-> Russian cultural conversion happened quite quickly and Russia has existed for a long time, more than enough to russianize those tartars actually. From Wiz's end-of-EU3 Culture map (Wiz said he's going to dick around with these for Vicky, but I think it's a good guideline: note that the map is by culture group rather than by culture).  Tatars still are the dominant culture in most of southern Russia, though Russian culture has forced its way south a bit.
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Aug 19, 2012 16:17
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Terrifying Effigies posted:A United States of Asia Oh, of course. I didn't mean to say it was impossible for a large multi-ethnic nation to succeed or become democratic even, but even that United States of Greater Austria would eventually run into an issue; the non-Austrians would slowly make their way into the government, and sooner or later, the name would have to change to represent the other ethnic groups, since I can see them getting upset at the idea of being "greater Austria" (maybe the United States of Central Europe?). A Buttery Pastry posted:Eastern Germanics. Current theory is that they came from the Danish island of Bornholm (called Burgundarholmr back then). So no, not Germans. Though I guess the division between the various branches of the Germanic language group might have been less pronounced back then. That'll teach me to google Burgundians and just skim Wikipedia! Thanks, I see what Kainser was getting at, the Burgundians would probably just be French people who feel special.
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Aug 19, 2012 16:17
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Regarding French cultures/languages, one should take note that Occitan is more than a French dialect, but a separate Romance language, much like Catalan to which it is in fact very similar. It, like Breton and French dialects fell out of use during the Victorian era where the French pursued a policy of eliminating non-Parisian French, much like other countries like Italy and Greece in order to reinforce national unity). But Wikipedia also says, about the Albigensian crusade against the Cathars which did not occur in this timeline:quote:The Crusade was prosecuted primarily by the French crown and promptly took on a political flavour, resulting in not only a significant reduction in the number of practicing Cathars but also a realignment of Occitania, bringing it into the sphere of the French crown and diminishing the distinct regional culture and high level of Aragonese influence.
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Aug 19, 2012 16:41
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^^^^Based on EU3 so would I say that the Gascons and Bretons would be the big groups wanting independence in Victoria if Wiz goes down that route.Terrifying Effigies posted:It's certainly possible for big multi-ethnic states to survive and even thrive - look at India and Indonesia for example. But it certainly isn't going to happen with an Azeri minority ruling over the rest. Anyway, a major reason that India and Indonesia are such large and multi-ethnic states is the colonization and decolonization of those areas, something that Azerbaijan won't have. Kainser fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Aug 19, 2012 |
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Aug 19, 2012 16:41
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Kainser posted:The problem for me personally is that if we end up playing as a Greek Orthodox dominated state ruled from Anatolia then I'd feel that we aren't really playing as Azerbaijan anymore and there wouldn't really be a point to the LP. Not that I think that will be an issue since Nationalism is a hell of a drug and Azerbaijan is right now in a worse position than A-H was. In Austria so were Germans a plurality and Christians a majority at least. Yeah, I really don't see Azerbaijan holding onto Armenia for very long - I just wanted to point out that there's *potentially* paths for the current empire to survive into the 20th Century...they're just not very likely. Although given the current ethnic breakup, it's possible that the Azeris might be able to play the Anatolian Greeks and the Armenians against each other for a while. They've got the Oriental/Orthodox Christianity divide to work with, and there's often a lot more distrust between heretics than heathens.
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Aug 19, 2012 16:51
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Patter Song posted:Eugen Weber's Peasants into Frenchmen is relevant: he makes the case that most of the transition you describe happened specifically between the rise of the Third Republic in 1871 and the start of World War I, arguing that the two dramatic elements of change were the Third Republic's universal education, where its teachers like Republican Missionaries, brought the language and culture of Paris to the provinces and ostracized those that didn't accept it, and universal conscription, which forced at least the men to all speak enough French to get through service. DrProsek posted:Oh, of course. I didn't mean to say it was impossible for a large multi-ethnic nation to succeed or become democratic even, but even that United States of Greater Austria would eventually run into an issue; the non-Austrians would slowly make their way into the government, and sooner or later, the name would have to change to represent the other ethnic groups, since I can see them getting upset at the idea of being "greater Austria" (maybe the United States of Central Europe?). DrProsek posted:That'll teach me to google Burgundians and just skim Wikipedia!  DrProsek posted:Thanks, I see what Kainser was getting at, the Burgundians would probably just be French people who feel special. *I would hazard a guess and say that this is true for any culture. YF-23 posted:So perhaps this should have been more of a feature of EU3, given the Catalan-dominated Espanya, but France is definitely not populated simply by different flavours of Frenchmen in this timeline. So ideally the Victorian Burgundian state would be made up of four quite distinct and not necessarily similar cultural groups, the Burgundians, the French, the Occitans, and the Bretons.
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Aug 19, 2012 17:00
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Kainser posted:The problem for me personally is that if we end up playing as a Greek Orthodox dominated state ruled from Anatolia then I'd feel that we aren't really playing as Azerbaijan anymore and there wouldn't really be a point to the LP. Not that I think that will be an issue since Nationalism is a hell of a drug and Azerbaijan right now is in a worse position than A-H was. In Austria so were Germans a plurality and Christians a majority at least. Personally, I'd love to see Azerbaijan enter a long period of decline in V2. Instead of dominating the world like every other Paradox LP, I think it would be kind of neat if Wiz used V2's mechanics to show political, economic, and ethnic unrest as our tiny empire falls apart. Without the vanilla V2's method of "rebels, everywhere," of course. Let's be the Sick Old Man of Azerbaijan. Heck, the Azeri Civil War could be the American Civil War of this timeline, or a series of Anatolian Wars could replace the Balkan Wars.
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Aug 19, 2012 17:23
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QuoProQuid posted:I'm having difficulties trying to come up with a design for a Communist Christiana. Either you need to make all their parties Moralist, to reflect the nation's genesis, or the name would need to change. From yesterday, but I remembered this post and felt bored and wanted to show off my limited art skills.  Basically, the communist flag of Norway with Christiana colors and a cross and sickle instead of a hammer. I know we just went over how "Hammer and sickle, BOOM! Instant communist flag" is kinda annoying and for a lot of countries doesn't quite make sense, but I think the small change will be enough to give it some uniqueness. What I would do for Christiana political parties is: Fascist, Reactionary, Conservative, and Socialist: Moralist Liberal and Communist: Pluralist Anarcho-Liberal: Secularized or Atheism
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Aug 19, 2012 17:43
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Flag for communist Azerbaijan (or anyone, really): And proper game size: 
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Aug 19, 2012 17:51
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FadingChord posted:Heck, the Azeri Civil War could be the American Civil War of this timeline, or a series of Anatolian Wars could replace the Balkan Wars. It would be pretty cool to see Azerbaijan as the trigger for the Great War. Armenia tries to gain independence and is supported by Russia. Poland and Burgandy, who fear that Russia will upset the balance of power declare their support for Azerbaijan. This prompts a declaration of war from Germany in support of their Republican allies, the Russians. As Burgandy is distracted with Anatolia, Italy declares war on Burgandy to satisfy their claims on Piedmont. Burgandy in turn activates its alliance with Espanya and Portugal. As the war wages, the government of Azerbaijan is overthrown in a violent communist revolution. The monarchy manages to flee to Crete and declares independence. Unfortunately, I doubt Azerbaijan will survive that long in its current state. As far as I'm concerned our hold over Anatolia is doomed. The only question is when the collapse will occur and how. If we are lucky, we'll be able to survive as a Transcaucasian Democratic Federative Republic. DrProsek posted:From yesterday, but I remembered this post and felt bored and wanted to show off my limited art skills. Both that flag and the idea are pretty solid in my opinion. I tried my hand at the flag of a fascist Christiana. How does this look?  The ruling party is symbolized by the circle which binds the cross (and the nation) together. QuoProQuid fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Aug 19, 2012 |
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Aug 19, 2012 18:47
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QuoProQuid posted:It would be pretty cool to see Azerbaijan as the trigger for the Great War. Armenia tries to gain independence and is supported by Russia. Poland and Burgandy, who fear that Russia will upset the balance of power declare their support for Azerbaijan. This prompts a declaration of war from Germany in support of their Republican allies, the Russians. As Burgandy is distracted with Anatolia, Italy declares war on Burgandy to satisfy their claims on Piedmont. Burgandy in turn activates its alliance with Espanya and Portugal. Kainser fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Aug 19, 2012 |
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Aug 19, 2012 18:53
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Kainser posted:You are aware of the fact that Germany is a monarchy right? My mistake. For some reason I was thinking that Germany had become a Republic at the end of EU3. I don't know why.
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Aug 19, 2012 18:58
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DrProsek posted:From yesterday, but I remembered this post and felt bored and wanted to show off my limited art skills. I really don't see why Communists would be pluralist, as Communism in this game pretty much assumes Bolshevism, Socialist I get, but Communists would be atheist, Anarcho-liberals would be secularist. Not sure if this can be modded well, but if there were 2 communist parties, 1 Bolshevik and one explicitly moralist, and a Christian Communist party, that could work, but a cross seems out of place otherwise.
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Aug 19, 2012 19:05
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QuoProQuid posted:My mistake. For some reason I was thinking that Germany had become a Republic at the end of EU3. I don't know why.
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Aug 19, 2012 19:09
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Kainser posted:You are aware of the fact that Germany is a monarchy right? Hey, if the French in real life flip-flopped between monarchy and republic, why can't the Germans in the LP?
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Aug 19, 2012 19:11
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markus_cz posted:Industrialisation didn't really have that drastic environmental effects. The effects were mostly social, like people moving from the country to cities and their factories. But despite all those dirty cities, chimneys, steam trains and London pea fogs, the country life and environment remained largely unchanged. In the Victorian era, the only problem I can think of would be pollution, but I guess it was largely confined to population centres and didn't effect natural environment that much. I know SimEarth, but Global Effect and Fate of the World were new to me. Thanks for the recommendations.  I guess this issue is really derailed from the topic here, which is Azerbaijan. I think it's pretty likely that all those Anatolian holdings will become independent during the game. It would be quite poetic if Azerbaijan would be reduced to it's present size or starting size in CK1 at the end of this LP. From obscurity to glory to obscurity again.
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Aug 19, 2012 19:18
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Clearly the way forward for Azerbaijan is the Austrian strategy of playing minorities off against each other. If the Greeks and Armenians are claiming the same land, then the Greeks and Armenians would be terrified of each other's nationalist ambitions and work to prevent them! There's no possible problem with this strategy! 
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Aug 19, 2012 19:50
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I don't really see why Christiana should remain religiously devout if it becomes communist. They should however have a populace that is decidedly moralist, so that an atheist communist party has little if any support. I'd imagine that socialists there would be pluralist or secular, but that communism, at least in its early stages, would be hardline, with the possibility of a second communist party that is secular instead of atheist popping up later as less radicalised people join the movement.
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Aug 19, 2012 20:00
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I'm not really clear on how Burgundy is actually all that different than France, except in that they never had a revolution. The idea that Burgundy is effectively a dynastic state similar to austria-hungary seems like something of a stretch to me, it doesn't seem obvious to me that Burgundy as a dynastic state is much different from the pre-revolution Kingdom of France. National identities aren't intrinsic things that people are born with. Burgundy has been steadily uniting the area that hundreds of years ago was known as France for several hundred years, and except for regions like Gascony and Brittany has ruled most of "France" non-stop for about 200 years. Wouldn't it just be more the case that Burgundian has supplanted Cosmopolitan French as the langue d'oil, and to the extent that people felt french in this period, they would instead just feel Burgundian, Burgundy having been synonymous with the French state itself for centuries? I mean, Burgundy is certainly not a nation state currently because that concept is in its infancy at this time, but with the state's borders having encompassed the vast majority of France for centuries by now, I'm not sure it would be correct to assume that to future nationalists and republicans Burgundy will be seen as a provincial administration that happens to control France, when it seems to make just as much sense that those people might identify Burgundy as the natural nation state of all peoples who speak the Gallo-romantic languages, with the caveat (for republicans) that Burgundy should be a republic instead of a monarchy. I'd see "France" as an idea being more of a Fascist thing than anything, like the harkening back to the past done by the German fascists with the Third Reich and the Italian fascists with the Roman Empire.
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Aug 19, 2012 20:12
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YF-23 posted:I don't really see why Christiana should remain religiously devout if it becomes communist. They should however have a populace that is decidedly moralist, so that an atheist communist party has little if any support. I'd imagine that socialists there would be pluralist or secular, but that communism, at least in its early stages, would be hardline, with the possibility of a second communist party that is secular instead of atheist popping up later as less radicalised people join the movement. I was suggesting that unless the communist party remained moralist/pluralist then Christiana would need a new name. Also a Christian Communist Party is a concept that we rarely see and I think that few people wanted to pass up the opportunity. It's an interesting idea that actually makes sense in context of Christiana's own personal history. Their entire national identity is built on religion. QuoProQuid fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Aug 19, 2012 |
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Aug 19, 2012 20:13
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YF-23 posted:I don't really see why Christiana should remain religiously devout if it becomes communist. They should however have a populace that is decidedly moralist, so that an atheist communist party has little if any support. I'd imagine that socialists there would be pluralist or secular, but that communism, at least in its early stages, would be hardline, with the possibility of a second communist party that is secular instead of atheist popping up later as less radicalised people join the movement. Eh, on the one hand Christian Communists don't really exist at this point, and hardline factions would be the only ones with a voice, but allowing for a bit of ahistorical political factions might allow for some better flag designs, without needing constant hammers and sickles. I admit it certainly isn't a likely outcome at this time period, so for maintaining historical plausibility, maybe an atheist communism is best, but maybe it's worth allowing one nation to have its own form of communism. Maybe make some fascist atheists somewhere else in the world to compensate. burnishedfume fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Aug 19, 2012 |
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Aug 19, 2012 20:20
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The Middle East: Note that I've barely even started on India. EDIT: Minor corrections. Wiz fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Aug 19, 2012 |
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Aug 19, 2012 20:27
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Wiz posted:The Middle East: It's nice to see that our southern neighbours have the correct name now but that Bulgaria is neither Old nor Great. 
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Aug 19, 2012 20:37
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Look at the Arabian peninsula. See that point between Hedjaz, Damman, Oman and Yemen? That's some fine-lookin' borders there. Other countries take note.
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Aug 19, 2012 20:41
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I would also like to note that the two most important countries are in the scenario: 
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Aug 19, 2012 20:46
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