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Xoidanor posted:What the gently caress? I don't even know where to start. Our current policy on immigration has literally nothing to do with what MP thinks about anything. If anything we would be losing our own voters. That's just my impression from talking with (mostly LO) folks in and around Eskilstuna. I stand corrected. By all means, though, feel free to elaborate. I've got no inside information. Start anywhere, if you feel so inclined. Cake Smashing Boob fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Dec 4, 2014 |
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Dec 4, 2014 15:21
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Rnr posted:"Värt att notera är att dessa figurer baseras på statistiska modeller som samtidigt kontrollerar för individers ålder, kön, utbildningsnivå och yrke." are you seriously raging against normal practice of validity in quantitative research?
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Dec 4, 2014 15:24
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So what are the chances this is the end of the Swedish bloc system? SD seems likely to get more votes in the new elections rather than less, so why would the situation be any different after new elections? Finland doesn't have blocs and managed to form a government, even if it was a barely functional mishmash of 6 parties, after PS won 19% of the vote.
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Dec 4, 2014 15:25
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Deceitful Penguin posted:No I mean, I was literally just speaking Danish with a Norwegian accent; because I never learned Norwegian in school. I was drunk enough I was just glad I could do even that. i will end you
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Dec 4, 2014 15:41
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doverhog posted:So what are the chances this is the end of the Swedish bloc system? SD seems likely to get more votes in the new elections rather than less, so why would the situation be any different after new elections? Finland doesn't have blocs and managed to form a government, even if it was a barely functional mishmash of 6 parties, after PS won 19% of the vote. The "bloc system" is an alliance thing, and they seem dead set on keeping it alive. So, uh, slim, I guess, as long as they insist on sticking with it.
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Dec 4, 2014 15:48
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doverhog posted:So what are the chances this is the end of the Swedish bloc system? SD seems likely to get more votes in the new elections rather than less, so why would the situation be any different after new elections? Finland doesn't have blocs and managed to form a government, even if it was a barely functional mishmash of 6 parties, after PS won 19% of the vote. Slim to none, as Alliansen has been resolute to block any attempts at cooperation between the blocks. S had the chance to drop MP and try to make a risky attempt at abandoning the block system on their own, but chose not to. And yes, the situation will probably be the same after the new election, maybe with even more support for SD. And it's not like Sweden hasn't been able to do this before either. Hell, in 1978 we had a Fp government backed by only 11%. It's not like these things are impossible if you have better and more resposible politicians. 
lilljonas fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Dec 4, 2014 |
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Dec 4, 2014 16:02
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Dec 4, 2014 16:07
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The only thing I've seen that can remotely solve this gridlock is the idea to change the law so that you can only vote for one budget, and that you vote for all the budget propositions at the same time. This was appearantly proposed before but didn't get traction, but everyone but SD might be interested in making that change before the new election. Oh, that or parties realizing that two polarized blocks that are BFF and won't talk to others than their own super best friends club isn't constructive as long as neither side can get a majority. But again, we're quite far from that.
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Dec 4, 2014 16:22
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Wild Horses posted:Classic Swedish discussion about politics: Get indignant and ask for sources. There's been a few high profile cases where extreme leftist attack or harass SD people and others of the sort. This is nothing new, why do I even have to say this? You are the ones pulling excuses out your asses for these people, refusing to believe that most of the country would not have these guys "defending" them against nazis. I'm Danish. Also, no! You are the person claiming something I, someone actually keeping up with this area of politics, have never heard about, and still have the idiocy/balls to be indignant about it. E: You know what? Forget about it, it's clear you're either dumber than dead wood or willfully ignorant.
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Dec 4, 2014 16:36
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Benito Hitlerstalin posted:That's just my impression from talking with (mostly LO) folks in and around Eskilstuna. I stand corrected. By all means, though, feel free to elaborate. I've got no inside information. Start anywhere, if you feel so inclined. I'm an active member in a city that ranks on the top 10 immigrants per capita list almost every year and I can with conviction say that there's no support at all currently for decreasing the total national immigration amongst active members. The current state of immigration is seen as problematic but going the SD way isn't even considered as an solution. Any move from central-S to compromise on this would not be taken gladly. Now obviously I can't speak for every S municipality but this sentiment has existed in every S municipality I've been involved with so far despite them being diametrically opposed on other issues such as privatisation and infrastructure. 
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Dec 4, 2014 17:07
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Ligur posted:If you thought the post you quoted was "racist as gently caress" you are stupid beyond my ability to describe. Ligur posted:
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Dec 4, 2014 17:33
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Rnr posted:"See, events in the real world proved you wrong, as predicted. Maybe re-evaluate and re-examine the arguments for and against a very lax immigration law in Sweden?" Ligur posted:If "complaining about muslims" is "racist" then you can't really discuss refugee politics without it being "racist" since most of them happen to be muslims you dolt. Also, muslims are not a god drat race. Why hasn't D&D been able to figure this out in 10 years. V. Illych L. posted:i will end you 
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Dec 4, 2014 17:46
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"RACIS!!"
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What the gently caress is going on in Sweden right now? Who does it benefit?
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Dec 4, 2014 17:54
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lilljonas posted:I agree. There is not enough time for the parties to re-evaluate their positions and come up with new angles or messages, so it will be basically The Election II: Meatball Bugaloo. Some parties will lose on the re-election since they are small and simply doesn't have the funds for a re-election (FP, F!, KD, V) while some can afford to do it because they are either large/growing or flush with funds (M, C, S, SD). Sweden: Belgium Mode Engaged. Riksdagen is overrated anyways. All playing into the cunning hands of SD: The King gets to rule  You know, "Sverige Monarkisterna" would be a much more fitting name for that bunch. New Initials: SM. Taste it. Sverige Mästerskap. Sverige Mästarna. Master Race. Sado-Masochists.  Pimpmust fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Dec 4, 2014 |
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Dec 4, 2014 17:56
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dorkasaurus_rex posted:What the gently caress is going on in Sweden right now? Who does it benefit? http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30306992 http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/03/sweden-far-right-democrats-immigration-vote-government tl;dr: the forces of evil (Sweden Democrats) shat all over established political practice and forced the socialist minority government to call for another election. Rather than voting for their own budget/abstaining, they (SD) supported the right-wing oppositions budget, forcing the left-wing government to either administrate a right-wing budget, work out some kind of last minute deal or call for a snap vote/reelection (I don't actually know what you call this in english). They chose the latter. It benefits SD, probably. Cake Smashing Boob fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Dec 4, 2014 |
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Dec 4, 2014 18:06
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dorkasaurus_rex posted:What the gently caress is going on in Sweden right now? Who does it benefit? They can't form a functional government because the wrong party got too many votes. Democracy benefits? Or maybe not? At least the election had an effect on what happens.
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Dec 4, 2014 18:06
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dorkasaurus_rex posted:What the gently caress is going on in Sweden right now? Who does it benefit? Proportional parliamentary representation in action.
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Dec 4, 2014 18:26
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Already ordered the spraycans and political stickers, all set up for a new election season! (ohfuckingdamnitthiswillkillme)
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Dec 4, 2014 18:31
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Deceitful Penguin posted:Realtalk for a moment Ligur; what does the word "racist" mean to you? Would you be happier with the word 'Xenophobe' or do you object to the phobia part because your thoughts aren't motivated by "fear" but by "rationality"? Ok realtalk: a racist is someone who thinks the skin melanin of a person somehow measures his or her other qualities. Something I could care less about; it doesn't. I don't think "Xenophobe" is a word that makes me or many other people happy either, as it means unreasoned fear of the foreign. Personally I'm not very afraid of "foreign" or "other" things or people any more than their melanin, as I mostly work with such people on a daily basis (and my hobbies are much the same). It's just a thing in Nordic countries that "certain" parties will always attribute things like contemplating reducing immigration or whatever as being caused only, and only by racism or some phobia. Admit it: there are no reasonable or rational arguments these certain parties will ever accept. If I say I don't really, really give a poo poo if someone is black or brown or blue, but I also don't think immigrating of low skilled workers or camel herders who can't read or write isn't smart for the society as a whole, they'll just call me a liar. It's sort of funny, because if I actually DID care about melanin I would just say so. Cultures are a real thing, and they are not all very compatible, for example the Kenyan habit of cutting of female clitoris and outer genitals (practiced by Christians, Muslims and Animists alike) would be abhorrent and not tolerated here. Well. Actually I think Swedes would tolerate it, like they tolerate honor violence, in the name of tolerance... but I digress. Neither the habits of the Papua-New Guinean headhunter would be easily integrated into other societies. But it's also irrelevant if someone is any of these, a Christian or a headhunter or possibly a pastafarian, if he or she abides to the social contract and laws of his or her current country of residence. Was this answer satisfactory to you or do you need more information? Ligur fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Dec 4, 2014 |
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Dec 4, 2014 18:59
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Honor violence is tolerated here? News to me, tbh.
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Dec 4, 2014 19:04
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Benito Hitlerstalin posted:
Why is a minority government a good thing, established political practice or not?
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Dec 4, 2014 19:05
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Rutkowski posted:Honor violence is tolerated here? News to me, tbh. Yeah it seems you Swedes don't really care that much how many women fall of balconies in certain suburbs or get stabbed to death by their younger cousins. Sure, there will be some candle marches and whining about how horrible men are, as usual, and some irrelevant sentences which won't even touch most of the people involved and who were cause horrible things to happen, but nothing is done to actually stop that kind of poo poo.
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Dec 4, 2014 19:13
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Ligur posted:Yeah it seems you Swedes don't really care that much how many women fall of balconies in certain suburbs or get stabbed to death by their younger cousins. Sure, there will be some candle marches and whining about how horrible men are, as usual, and some irrelevant sentences which won't even touch most of the people involved and who were cause horrible things to happen, but nothing is done to actually stop that kind of poo poo. Kind of curious what kinds of steps you'd like to see taken to fix this problem.
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Dec 4, 2014 19:18
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Rutkowski posted:Voilence against women being neglected in the judical courts is not confined to honor voilence. My steps to prevent this problem you would deem very racist and xenophobic. Like making it very clear anyone involved in honour violence will be instantly deported after their prison sentence is served. That would sort of send a message. But no. You know, tolerance? Can't be done. And the poor honour killers could be at various dangers if you deport them whence they came from 
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Dec 4, 2014 19:22
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doverhog posted:Why is a minority government a good thing, established political practice or not? I don't know that it is?
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Dec 4, 2014 19:24
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Tias posted:I'm Danish. http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/dokument/eskilstuna-skakas-av-politisk-valdsvag/ point isn't that these guys are worse than nazis, 'cause they ain't. But they have a scary self-righteousness about them, something permitting violence against any target deemed a threat. This is nothing new, it's something totally inherent to their brand of extremism.
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Dec 4, 2014 19:33
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Ligur posted:My steps to prevent this problem you would deem very racist and xenophobic. Like making it very clear anyone involved in honour violence will be instantly deported after their prison sentence is served. That would sort of send a message.
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Dec 4, 2014 19:55
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Rutkowski posted:And if the people involved in the honor killings are Swedish citizens and/or born here? Stop with the slap on the wrist sentences if perpetrator is born there. Knife to death your sister for being too Western? A long prison sentence won't fix that situation anymore but will send a message, a much more powerful message than a minor fine and some youth center time, which is the norm in Sweden because you are so, so tolerant. Also the people associated (i.e. the father/mother who gave the order to honour stab to death) can be deported; hey were probably not born in Sweden. Of course, it's hard to prove if they did give the order or not, because in these cases nobody talks, I admit, but there are ways you can at least try to drive the message home and also you can use social services and the police to find stuff the victim said before she was killed to come up with some conclusions who was behind it. (And it's pretty unthinkable someone stabs her sister 10 000 times just out of the blue without pressure.) Also revoking citizenship from people who have received it but were originally born somewhere else is entirely possible if someone commits heineuous crimes. Holland is doing that for ISIS jihadists for example. It all isn't so incredibly, incredibly difficult. But it seems you Swedes refuse to do none of this. I guess it might be racis' to even try. Why do fringe left-wingers, especially those who fear moonbase nazis, always think it's more or less impossible to punish criminals who do something utterly horrific, especially if the criminals are of some ethnic minority? It is really confusing because there are many, many simple and effective ways. They can only think of ways to extralegally punish "fascists" (by stabbing maybe, because the fascist started it, or at least deserve it), or bureaucrats who try to follow their instructions, and judges who follow the local law and so on but people who throw women out of balconies because of culture? No way! No punishment is possible! Ligur fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Dec 4, 2014 |
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Dec 4, 2014 20:22
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Ligur posted:Stop with the slap on the wrist sentences if perpetrator is born there. Knife to death your sister for being too Western? A long prison sentence won't fix that situation anymore but will send a message, a much powerful message than a minor fine and some youth center time. Also the people associated (i.e. the father/mother who gave the order to honour stab to death) can be deported. Of course, it's hard to prove if they did give the order or not, because in these cases nobody talks, I admit, but there are ways you can try to drive the message home. (And it's pretty unthinkable someone stabs her sister 10 000 times just out of the blue without pressure.) Ah yes, because long prison sentences sending a tough, scary message worked so well for the United States
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Dec 4, 2014 20:24
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Ligur posted:Why do fringe left-wingers, especially those who fear moonbase nazis, always think it's more or less impossible to punish criminals who do something utterly horrific, especially if the criminals are of some ethnic minority? It is really confusing because there are many, many simple and effective ways. They can only think of ways to extralegally punish "fascists" (by stabbing maybe, because the fascist started it, or at least deserve it), or bureaucrats who try to follow their instructions, and judges who follow the local law and so on but people who throw women out of balconies because of culture? No way! No punishment is possible! I don't know man. Why do straw men do anything?
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Dec 4, 2014 20:25
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dorkasaurus_rex posted:Ah yes, because long prison sentences sending a tough, scary message worked so well for the United States Honour killings is not a thing in the United States. You are talking apples and oranges here: completely different reasons and outcomes of crime. Or if you are too stupid to figure that out, well, go shove your head back in the closet. Benito Hitlerstalin posted:I don't know man. Why do straw men do anything? Funny you would say that...
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Dec 4, 2014 20:28
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Wild Horses posted:http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/dokument/eskilstuna-skakas-av-politisk-valdsvag/ 1. Osynliga Partiet was not a front for AFA. 2. RF was the main actor in the Eskilstuna area, not AFA. 3(not an error but worth mentioning). Anna-Lena Lodenius is not an expert on extremism and never has been and is one of the authors of the laughable Extremistutredningen as well as the hilariously inaccurate Gatans Parlament. 4. The average age is very wrong(might be talking about the Eskilstuna area though which I can't speak for as it's one of the areas where I've less contacts). Those caught might average out around 17 but older activists often know how to not get caught. 5. The "antifas are middle-class brats who are bored" bullshit is as wrong today as it was when this article is written(same locality exception as above). If you want the middle-class kids then you're better off looking into Allt åt Alla where it's more true(not a dominating majority there either though) 6. The "both sides are similar" list is hilarious. # Underkänner det demokratiska rättssamhället och dess lagar. Yeah, because market economy parliamentarism is the only democracy. # Heroiserar dem som döms för sina handlingar i kampen. If someone is sentenced for a political action, yeah. It's kind of hilarious though how they're shat on by those that praise the action though.(see how the defenders in Kärrtorp were pretty universally praised by non-facists and neolibs but Joel has been eternally shat on for self-defence in a situation where self-defence was justified*) # Har en konspiratorisk syn på samhället. Uhh, what? # Ser polisen som en hantlangare för makten. It's because they are. It's their purpose, to protect the state. They don't even deny this themselves. # Har samma syn i en rad politiska frågor, båda är till exempel mot USA och Israel. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA holy poo poo. If something were to tell you this article is bullshit then this is probably the most obvious hint there is. *court's words, not mine. the court protocols are kind of interesting in how misrepresented the entire case have been in media before, during and after the proceedings As a final note, from the last paragraph: "Tidigare kom det lokala hotet mest från högerextremister, men det senaste året är det främst vänstern som står för den ideologiska brottsligheten." Make a loving guess why the nazis backed down? (and, how they've returned after the antifas were sent to prison. huge coincidence, that) Rutkowski fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Dec 4, 2014 |
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Dec 4, 2014 20:29
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fantastic
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Dec 4, 2014 20:36
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Ligur posted:Stop with the slap on the wrist sentences if perpetrator is born there. Knife to death your sister for being too Western? A long prison sentence won't fix that situation anymore but will send a message, a much more powerful message than a minor fine and some youth center time, which is the norm in Sweden because you are so, so tolerant. quote:Also the people associated (i.e. the father/mother who gave the order to honour stab to death) can be deported; hey were probably not born in Sweden. Of course, it's hard to prove if they did give the order or not, because in these cases nobody talks, I admit, but there are ways you can at least try to drive the message home and also you can use social services and the police to find stuff the victim said before she was killed to come up with some conclusions who was behind it. (And it's pretty unthinkable someone stabs her sister 10 000 times just out of the blue without pressure.) quote:Also revoking citizenship from people who have received it but were originally born somewhere else is entirely possible if someone commits heineuous crimes. Holland is doing that for ISIS jihadists for example. quote:It all isn't so incredibly, incredibly difficult. But it seems you Swedes refuse to do none of this. I guess it might be racis' to even try. quote:Why do fringe left-wingers, especially those who fear moonbase nazis, always think it's more or less impossible to punish criminals who do something utterly horrific, especially if the criminals are of some ethnic minority? quote:It is really confusing because there are many, many simple and effective ways. They can only think of ways to extralegally punish "fascists" (by stabbing maybe, because the fascist started it, or at least deserve it), or bureaucrats who try to follow their instructions, and judges who follow the local law and so on but people who throw women out of balconies because of culture? No way! No punishment is possible! (and yes, I already know the answer to this)
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Dec 4, 2014 20:39
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Ligur posted:Honour killings is not a thing in the United States. You are talking apples and oranges here: completely different reasons and outcomes of crime.
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Dec 4, 2014 20:41
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Shrug. Drug related gang violence in the US, for example, can't be fought by deportation. Honour violence can be fought by deportations, easily. Do you know what the US does with criminally inclined foreigners though? They send them away from where they came! If you like honour violence, by all means, like it. I can't agree with you but I can appreciate your view. All that bullshit about international law in this matter is is what it is: bullshit. Sweden can deport foreign criminals if Sweden wants to, it's a sovereign state after all. Any country can also revoke citizenship from former foreign nationals if it so wishes if said persons think honour stabbing is awesome. Quit talking about strawmen when you think it's ok to perform heroic vigilantism against purported "nazis" but it's not ok to deport convicted honour killers, or the people who gave the order.
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Dec 4, 2014 20:52
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Murders involving other crimes, gangs, etc. are different than honour killings. I don't know if harsher sentences would really help but the crimes are nothing alike.
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Dec 4, 2014 20:55
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Ligur posted:Shrug. Drug related gang violence in the US, for example, can't be fought by deportation. Honour violence can be fought by deportations, easily. Do you know what the US does with criminally inclined foreigners though? They send them away from where they came! quote:If you like honour violence, by all means, like it. quote:All that bullshit about international law in this matter is is what it is: bullshit. quote:Quit talking about strawmen when you think it's ok to perform heroic vigilantism against purported "nazis" but it's not ok to deport convicted honour killers, or the people who gave the order.
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Dec 4, 2014 21:12
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Rutkowski posted:But I thought everyone who is deported can just throw away their passports and return at will with a new name and nationality?? Fingerprints, bitch. quote:If you like raping children, by all means, like it! I mean, if we're making dipshit statements then why not go all out? You like slashing off the clitoris from women. WHY? Why are you such a monster. quote:You seem to make repeated claims of wanting to disregard the law when it comes to foreigners, I wonder why it's like that? I wonder why you think laws cannot be changed. If you think they spawned from earth in the beginning when God created Earth, you're pretty much in the wrong. Moses, actually, did not deliver yours on a tablet of stone. quote:I'm starting to wonder if you consider any people at all to be nazis considering your repeated dismissal of the term. Why do you like strawmanning so much? Does it give you... pleasure? Here's a good rundown on what it is TEH NAZI. If you think someone who considers reducing insane amounts of immigration on refugee basis a Nazi you ain't doing very good, bro. If you don't, just say it.
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Dec 4, 2014 22:05
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I'm actually impressed, Ligur. You're far crazier than I could possibly have imagined. Have you perhaps heard of this fundamental judicial principle that says everyone is alike in the eyes of the law? Also, re: revoking citizenships or deporting Swedish citizens, that's not "illegal" or a change that can be implemented just like that. The citizenship is such a fundamental part of our society that its inviolability is a basic right guaranteed by the instrument of government, which is the first and most important of the four constitutional laws. It's in chapter 2, which also contains such things as the guarantee of freedom of movement and the ban on torture and capital punishment. 2 kap 7 § Regeringsformen posted:Ingen svensk medborgare får landsförvisas eller hindras att resa in i riket. Also, tell me, why is cutting off a clitoris so much worse than any other violent crime that it should warrant such exceptional punishments? TheFluff fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Dec 4, 2014 |
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Dec 4, 2014 22:28
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