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Best Producer/Showrunner? This poll is closed. |
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| Verity Lambert |
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49 | 7.04% |
| John Wiles |
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1 | 0.14% |
| Innes Lloyd |
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1 | 0.14% |
| Peter Bryant |
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3 | 0.43% |
| Derrick Sherwin |
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3 | 0.43% |
| Barry Letts |
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12 | 1.72% |
| Phillip Hinchcliffe |
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62 | 8.91% |
| Graham Williams |
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3 | 0.43% |
| John Nathan-Turner |
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15 | 2.16% |
| Philip Segal |
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3 | 0.43% |
| Russel T Davies |
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106 | 15.23% |
| Steven Moffat |
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114 | 16.38% |
| Son Goku |
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324 | 46.55% |
| Total: | 696 votes | ||
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What gimmick was this, now?
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May 11, 2014 18:37
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| # ? Jun 2, 2024 04:51 |
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3D. BBC had this whole 3D thing brewing that they threw their hands up about mid way through.
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May 11, 2014 18:39
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Burkion posted:3D. 3D is still a gimmick here in the US, and a very popular one it seems.
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May 11, 2014 18:42
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wins.
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PassTheRemote posted:3D is still a gimmick here in the US, and a very popular one it seems. At the cinema that's true for the UK as well, but home 3DTV has been a failure, with every broadcaster stopping 3D transmissions. Is 3DTV really that popular in the US?
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May 11, 2014 18:48
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marktheando posted:At the cinema that's true for the UK as well, but home 3DTV has been a failure, with every broadcaster stopping 3D transmissions. Is 3DTV really that popular in the US? For TV, no, not really. Although the 3D Blu-rays are still a thing, I'm not sure if 3D for console gaming is still a thing. Burkion posted:3D. I would not be surprised if the BBC told Moffat to then add 3D into Day of the Doctor. Still, Moffat needs someone who can tell him how to handle a budget.
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May 11, 2014 18:55
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PassTheRemote posted:For TV, no, not really. Although the 3D Blu-rays are still a thing, I'm not sure if 3D for console gaming is still a thing. Yeah there are a lot of 3Dtvs out there, it's just the overwhelming majority of 3Dtv owners didn't want to pay the extra subscriptions for 3D tv channels, even if they do watch the occasional 3D Blu-ray. I bet there's a huge amount who have never watched anything 3D on their 3DTV. I just recently got myself a new tv and couldn't justify getting a 3D one when I could get a bigger better 2D screen for the same money.
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May 11, 2014 19:33
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I have a 3D TV. Never used it. As for the 50th I thought it was the only thing worth watching since somewhere in season 6. While I thought RTD generally improved throughout his running Moffat just seems to be slipping more and more.
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May 11, 2014 20:34
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LividLiquid posted:I mostly find the anti-Moffat, pro-RTD sentiment ridiculous, because for every awesome RTD ep (and there are quite a few), there's an ep with farting aliens Aliens of London/World War III is one of the best stories in the whole revival.
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May 11, 2014 22:51
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I've said it before, but part of my problem with Moffat is that things that would seem only mildly tone deaf with regard to gender (which, by popular fiction standards is positively harmless), become difficult to interpret as anything but openly hostile and sexist given the disgusting things that come out of his mouth whenever he's given an interview. He also does have a tendency to elevate his created characters to be the MOST IMPORTANT people who ever existed and he enjoys beating a dead horse by repeating his more popular tropes until they become tiresome. In essence, I think Moffat is an excellent writer who at times lets his ego get the better of him and makes his art into fanwanky vehicles for his opinions. He has done this so often at this juncture that he's erased a lot of his good will, so that people have a tendency to see his faults even in his actually good writing. I think many of the episodes he's penned, including the ones he was the showrunner (and including the 50th), are among the best of the revival, but I wish he had continued to be only a writer, that he only touched the writing and not production aspects, and that nobody would let his hateful little mouth anywhere near a loving microphone. edit: As a contrast, RTD had a tendency to overwrite the sloppy sentiment of the series, but given that it's Doctor Who and that his writing always felt like an earnest love for the Doctor's more egalitarian aspects, it's easier to forgive him his horrible flaws, up to and including the blasted cement blowjob joke. Bicyclops fucked around with this message at 23:06 on May 11, 2014 |
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May 11, 2014 23:03
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PriorMarcus posted:At least RTD could actually do the job he was hired for. It's going to have been over a year since the last full series aired by the time Capaldi begins and all because Moffat surrounded himself with loving idiots and is one himself. I bet if RTD had still been running the show the 50th would've felt considerably more like a celebration befitting the scale of the achievement rather than the wet fart it ended up being. I saw "Day of the Doctor" in 3D in a theater. The "Gallifrey Falls No More" painting was especially effective. It was awesome, in fact.  I'd been under the impression that the limited number of episodes in 2013 was because of the BBC, not because that's what Moffat wanted. Unless you think that RTD would have been able to fight for more episodes better than Moffat could or something?
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May 11, 2014 23:09
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I'll get on board with 3D just as soon as me and the rest of the 9-11 percent of the population who are stereoblind can benefit from it. Until then, it means it's harder to buy tickets for things.
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May 11, 2014 23:11
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jng2058 posted:I saw "Day of the Doctor" in 3D in a theater. The "Gallifrey Falls No More" painting was especially effective. It was awesome, in fact. It's not that Moffat wanted fewer episodes, it's that his mismanagement supposedly put them in a situation where he had to have these big gaps of time between episodes.
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May 11, 2014 23:14
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Bicyclops posted:I'll get on board with 3D just as soon as me and the rest of the 9-11 percent 
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May 11, 2014 23:39
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Fil5000 posted:And I dunno, in it's 50th year the show's probably earned a lot of self indulgence. Exactly. It was self-indulgent to the extreme but it was the 50th year of the show so it was completely understandable and even laudable. That special was just a glorious celebration of the show itself and I loved it. Journey's End earns a bit of its indulgence too, because it was RTD's last regular season episode, but nowhere near the magnitude of Day of the Doctor. As for Let's Kill Hitler, it's an okay story with some genuinely great bits in it, but also some utterly dreadful poo poo as well, and the latter tends to be all most people remember. That's pretty justified too, because perhaps the biggest and worst part of it other than the character of Mels is the fact that the psychological trauma of Amy and Rory losing their child is handwaved away horribly. It's a genuine example of one of the things Moffat is often unfairly accused of - allowing his twisting time-travel stuff completely overshadow genuine emotion. The set-up at the end of A Good Man Goes To War is excellent, the cliffhanger of learning who River is (many had already guessed) and the Doctor's promise to get their baby back is thrown out the window with an utterly atrocious "well she ended up growing up alongside them as a friend so that's just as good, right?" resolution. What makes it worse is there is a mini-sode where Amy is calling the Doctor and displaying genuine anguish over her baby being gone and even brings up the fact that knowing that the baby turns out "okay" isn't the same as raising her themselves, and yet the first time you see Amy and Rory in LKH they're driving around being goofy as they try to get the Doctor's attention, and the quest to have their child returned to them ends up feeling like a joke. And holy shiiiiiit Mels. I still point to that as an example of why Alex Kingston is the only one who should ever play River Song, because all the actresses who played Mels were loving atrocious and it seems it takes Kingston to make those lines work (and many would argue that she doesn't make it work either).
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May 11, 2014 23:40
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Hey, we had nothing to do with that. Mostly because everybody knows we would have missed. 
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May 12, 2014 00:20
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Speaking from a purely personal perspective here, I find RTD's tenure on the show to be, at worst, entertaining in a trainwreck sense. By this I mean that even RTD's worst, most  -inducing episodes were at least entertaining in a "holy poo poo I can't believe anyone thought this was a good idea" sense.Moffat's stuff, by comparison, leaves me cold. Perhaps I'm associating the work a bit too closely with the man, but I just get this overall sense of  pervading his stuff, as though he is just completely convinced that his ideas are brilliance personified and he just assumes that we will naturally follow along when he tells writers to "slut it up" and other dumb poo poo like that.RTD kept me watching even stuff like "The End of Time" because it was bad in a B-movie sort of way. Whereas Moffat made me finally just give up completely on modern DW under his leadership (stuff like the 50th anniversary things notwithstanding). So without even taking into account all the behind-the-scenes drama and production fuckups that have taken place under his watch, there's no doubt that Moffat is the inferior showrunner to RTD, IMO (which I stress is just my opinion). This does not mean everything RTD shat out is pure unadulterated greatness, just that under his direction I did find quite a bit more to enjoy about the show, on reflection.
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May 12, 2014 00:47
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jng2058 posted:I'd been under the impression that the limited number of episodes in 2013 was because of the BBC, not because that's what Moffat wanted. Unless you think that RTD would have been able to fight for more episodes better than Moffat could or something? When Moffat took over he hired a few of his friends to help run the show and their lovely attitude ended up pushing away the last remains of the RTD production crew. Moffat and his pals ended up running the show into massive amounts of debt that meant the BBC had to split their prize show into two blocks of episodes each year so that they could give it a fair budget and pay off the loving mountain of poo poo that Moffat managed to build up. A lot of Moffat's people got fired and the RTD people got asked to return but the damage was already done and the show has been suffering from production crew turn over ever since; not a single Moffat season has passed with the same people behind the scenes, with the obvious exception. Eventually the split season format got so bad that it meant that 2013 could only have a few episodes in it while still remaining profitable and the wait until Capaldi begins his tenure is basically to reset the finances of the show and begin again, with a full season and no break. Don't get excited about having a Christmas special anymore though, that's been folded into the regular series order to keep cost from spiraling again, so now you only get 12 episodes a year instead of 13, assuming your lucky. The BBC is still paying off the debt that Moffat built up in one single season of the show and because of that Doctor Who has a brand suffers. The 50th episode was beaten in the ratings by Eastenders, where as when RTD ran the show he managed to get two episodes with larger budgets in which to send off himself and Tennant and they aired in prime time slots on Christmas and New Years. You couldn't move in the UK that year without seeing Doctor Who everywhere; it was a bigger and bolder event than the 50th was and that's because RTD is simply a better show runner than Moffat. You can debate their writing quality, but it's silly to argue that Doctor Who wasn't better off with RTD making production decisions. PriorMarcus fucked around with this message at 01:27 on May 12, 2014 |
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May 12, 2014 01:24
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I think that may have a lot to do with their personalities. Davies comes off like this slightly camp, wonderfully friendly, outgoing, passionate gentle giant. Moffat, even in his own self-inserts, comes off as well-meaning, but a bit backwards and abrasive. (Steve from Coupling just about stays the right side of likeable because he's dumb and played by Jack Davenport. And I say that as a fan of Coupling)
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May 12, 2014 01:43
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Astroman posted:Best Showrunner ever is Nick Briggs.
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May 12, 2014 02:06
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PriorMarcus posted:You couldn't move in the UK that year without seeing Doctor Who everywhere; it was a bigger and bolder event than the 50th was A lot of what you're saying is opinion (and I agree that RTD was a better showrunner than Moffat, though I still prefer the show under Moffat) but I don't think anybody can really argue with a straight face that the 50th celebrations weren't a gigantic success for the BBC. It was EVERYWHERE on a global basis, the entire world knew that Doctor Who was having a party and we were all invited, and pretty much everybody showed up and had a great ol' time (including Tom Baker!).
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May 12, 2014 02:21
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PriorMarcus posted:Don't get excited about having a Christmas special anymore though, that's been folded into the regular series order to keep cost from spiraling again, so now you only get 12 episodes a year instead of 13, assuming your lucky. Eh, can't really complain about that, personally. It sounds lovely at first since the Who special became one of my favorite parts of Christmas, but they tended to skew below average anyway. Some of them are pretty good, but most of them aren't.
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May 12, 2014 03:02
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Cleretic posted:Eh, can't really complain about that, personally. It sounds lovely at first since the Who special became one of my favorite parts of Christmas, but they tended to skew below average anyway. Some of them are pretty good, but most of them aren't. I wouldn't mind the Christmas specials as much if they went ahead and decided that they didn't need to shoehorn Christmas into the plot just because Christmas special. That's why we get cringeworthy lines like "CHRISTMAS IS CANCELLED!" and implausible plot points like an alien town called Christmas. I feel like it would be enough just to have a nice Doctor Who episode on Christmas without making everything in the story revolve around the particular holiday. Call me crazy, but I like McGann's sentiment from The Chimes of Midnight: "I love Christmas, but I always find the anticipation better than the actual thing." Replace Christmas with Christmas special and it's pretty accurate as far as the ones we've gotten.
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May 12, 2014 03:35
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It will still be a Christmas themed episode airing on Christmas day, just slotted into the normal series instead of another episode. Also a yearly Halloween special would be much better suited to Doctor Who.
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May 12, 2014 03:52
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Yearly 4th of July special to appeal to overseas audiences 
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May 12, 2014 04:54
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Fungah! posted:Yearly 4th of July special to appeal to overseas audiences The Doctor meets Thomas Meanwhile over in Big Finish, the Sixth Doctor introduces Evelyn to Ben Franklin 
Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 05:17 on May 12, 2014 |
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May 12, 2014 05:02
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Jerusalem posted:The Doctor meets Thomas Jefferson, returns to modern times and discovers Jefferson now owns the patent for the TARDIS. They say / Thomas Jefferson he's the / man to get us in / to last century~ quote:Meanwhile over in Big Finish, the Sixth Doctor introduces Evelyn to Ben Franklin During his presidency, no doubt. 
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May 12, 2014 05:05
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DoctorWhat posted:During his presidency, no doubt. I can't remember, but was that ever explained away as being a result of all the Never-People/Anti-Time stuff loving with history (which I just kind of assumed was the reason), or did Big Finish just flat out gently caress up and think Franklin was a President?
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May 12, 2014 05:09
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I don't know if they ever made a statement but the anti-time plotline was certainly a convenient "out" for that screwup, huh? I do know that thinking Franklin was a president is a pretty common misconception outside of the US, judging (not exclusively) from the last time this thread had this conversation.
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May 12, 2014 05:11
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Jerusalem posted:The Doctor meets Thomas Jefferson, returns to modern times and discovers Jefferson now owns the patent for the TARDIS. The Doctor arrives in the wild west and meets Doc Holliday and company shortly before the shootout at the OK Cor...wait a minute.
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May 12, 2014 05:12
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Fungah! posted:The Doctor arrives in the wild west and meets Doc Holliday and company shortly before the shootout at the OK Cor...wait a minute. This joke gives me a toothache.
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May 12, 2014 05:14
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DoctorWhat posted:I don't know if they ever made a statement but the anti-time plotline was certainly a convenient "out" for that screwup, huh? Not just outside the US. There's a pretty great scene in The Wire where one of the "smart" characters chides a younger boy for claiming Franklin wasn't a President, claiming he wouldn't be on the $100 bill if he hadn't been. Edit: Also just to point out my own ignorance, I just realized my Thomas Jefferson joke should have been a Thomas Edison joke 
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May 12, 2014 05:15
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DoctorWhat posted:I don't know if they ever made a statement but the anti-time plotline was certainly a convenient "out" for that screwup, huh? I think they mention in Time of the Daleks (zzzzzzz) that all the weird ahistorical earth stuff, including Ben Franklin being president, was because of the disruption to the timeline that the Daleks caused by accidentally nabbing Will Shakespeare with their weird mirror time machines. I might be wrong on that, though, it's been years and the story's nowhere near good enough for me to go back and give it another listen. Also, the Gunfighters joke I made a minute ago reminded me of something. This might be my version of "the Rani could be a decent character if they brought her back, guys!" but IMO The Gunfighters could have actually been a pretty decent two-episode story. Hack out all the dead air, cut out most of the middle two episodes, and have whoever composed the song taken outside and shot and you'd be most of the way to a half-decent serial. Fungah! fucked around with this message at 05:31 on May 12, 2014 |
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May 12, 2014 05:28
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^^^^ drat, beaten soundly. Pretty sure that was part of the series anomalies that fed into the whole Daleks saving Shakespeare from time thing. Yeah, I know. It sounds better described this way.
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May 12, 2014 05:29
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I've listened to Time of the Daleks once. I spent most of that listentime in or around the Times Square Toys "R" Us for reasons I cannot recall and could not fathom if I tried. All I remember are the weird mirror-based time machines that they yoinked from one of the Troughton Dalek stories, and Kid Shakespeare. Interestingly, I listened to The Nowhere Place under largely the same conditions. How different can two stories be, jeez.
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May 12, 2014 05:32
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I didn't mind Time of the Daleks at all. I mean, it's not a GREAT story by any means, and I'd probably struggle to really call it a good one, but it's not bad either. I'm just sad that the "clever" little twist at the end - the Daleks' accident/escape is what leads to the accident in the first place - doesn't really make any sense at all if you think about it for more than a second. Normally you can see the logic in paradoxes like this but this one makes no sense at all and strikes me as the writer wanting desperately to have an AHA! moment.
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May 12, 2014 05:38
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Sydney Bottocks posted:Speaking from a purely personal perspective here, I find RTD's tenure on the show to be, at worst, entertaining in a trainwreck sense. By this I mean that even RTD's worst, most Yeah, this is it for me. For example, Dobby Jesus Goku Doctor at the end of the Master episode is just terrible, and I'll never forgive that three-parter for not giving Derek Jacobi more time to be the Master, but it was embarrassingly bad in a way that was like watching a little kid close his eyes and hoping that the Doctor could get him out of a writing dilemma. Comparatively minor writing sins committed by Moffat like, say, the first few times he overused River Song and he leered at her, seem much more dire because we know he's an egotistical, sexist rear end in a top hat. Again, I agree with Jeru that overall Moffat has made some very strong television, I would just love for there to be a change.
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May 12, 2014 05:48
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Honestly, that was a bit better than the series of Deus Ex Machinas never even alluded to in Journey's End. At least RTD had the decency to give us some smidge of foreshadowing by Ten whispering all importantly into Martha's ear. Here, we had a regeneration chopped off because of that loving hand and Doctor Donna and the worst ending for any Companion. That said, it's kind of a shame, since Moffat's stuff during RTD's tenure... well, all those loving Hugos. It really was better when he self-contained them in episodes.
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May 12, 2014 08:26
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Most Americans probably think Ben Franklin was President anyway.
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May 12, 2014 09:12
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Jerusalem posted:I can't remember, but was that ever explained away as being a result of all the Never-People/Anti-Time stuff loving with history (which I just kind of assumed was the reason), or did Big Finish just flat out gently caress up and think Franklin was a President? Well, RTD seemed to think the president's full title is "president-elect", so obviously there's something in Doctor Who writers' water. Honestly, most people in Britain probably know very little about American politics beyond "George Bush = bad, Obama = good". Honestly honestly, most people in Britain probably know very little about how British politics work. If "Vote Saxon" is any indication we all think the Prime Minister is the president and everybody votes for him directly. "UNELECTED GORDON BROWN" and all that.
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May 12, 2014 10:31
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| # ? Jun 2, 2024 04:51 |
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Metal Loaf posted:Honestly honestly, most people in Britain probably know very little about how British politics work. If "Vote Saxon" is any indication we all think the Prime Minister is the president and everybody votes for him directly. I'm still not sure how inaccurate that one actually was, but I always thought that suited things just fine in the story. The Master is an egotistical rear end in a top hat, the Simm Master especially. He wouldn't give a poo poo about how things actually work in politics, he'd run on an entirely self-centric platform.
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May 12, 2014 10:40
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