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I knew about it, but nobody ever talked about it and from my experience playing Final Fantasy games, using defense was a subpar strategy for anything but really gimmicky enemies. What exactly did it accomplish in the Infinity Engine games?
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Jan 16, 2014 10:10
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So, apologies if this has been answered already: How will PoE give out experience - specifically, will it scale based on something like average party level (as in IWD2) or will the xp values be static like in the other IE games? Personally, I'd prefer the second option since the first leads to things like level squatting, which is probably the only thing I really dislike about IWD2.
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Jan 16, 2014 12:29
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Is there going to be exp awarded from combat in PoE? For some reason I'm thinking no, but I might have confused that with another project.
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Jan 16, 2014 12:56
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rope kid posted:Yeah, we still don't award XP for kills (though sometimes killing something may be connected to a quest).
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Jan 16, 2014 13:07
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Darkhold posted:No XP just for grinding mobs. How about loot?
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Jan 16, 2014 14:07
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Rinkles posted:How about loot? They will drop loot, yeah.
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Jan 16, 2014 14:32
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Darkhold posted:No XP just for grinding mobs. That's awesome. I've always disliked the idea of grinding for XP because it really affects how you play the game, and it always seemed like a lazy way to implement a player progression mechanic to me. In Deus Ex Human Revolution, for example, the game falls all over itself telling you how many different ways you can play it, but the game incentivizes stealth gameplay over actiony guns blazing gameplay so much with such hugely unbalanced xp rewards for stealth that you're basically forced into full stealth mode all the time unless you want to be gimped as hell in the late game. With RPGs, this usually translates to "kill and loot absolutely everything that enters your field of view or suffer the opportunity cost of not doing so" which is just as limiting, really. I've always loved the idea of mission completion based XP only. You can fart around in this cave killing white mobs all day long, but you get nothing until you kill the boss at the end or complete the quest that tells you to kill the boss, at which point you get full XP rewards, and everybody gets the same XP no matter if they stealth past everything and backstab the boss or whether they nuke and stab everything in their path the whole way. To me it just seems like giving XP rewards for overall progress made is all around the best way to truly "encourage" every playstyle and balance gameplay as opposed to giving out XP for every little thing you do and then trying to balance for an ever widening window of potential player power as the game goes on. GreatGreen fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Jan 16, 2014 |
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Jan 16, 2014 16:21
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GreatGreen posted:That's awesome. I've always disliked the idea of grinding for XP because it really affects how you play the game, and it always seemed like a lazy way to implement a player progression mechanic to me. In Deus Ex Human Revolution, for example, the game falls all over itself telling you how many different ways you can play it, but the game incentivizes stealth gameplay over actiony guns blazing gameplay so much with such hugely unbalanced xp rewards for stealth that you're basically forced into full stealth mode all the time unless you want to be gimped as hell in the late game. With RPGs, this usually translates to "kill and loot absolutely everything that enters your field of view or suffer the opportunity cost of not doing so" which is just as limiting, really. This raise the problem of how do you reward any sort of devious thinking or extra effort on the player's part? There is a horrible trap between "Ugh, so there's only one right way to do it!" and "Ugh, so it doesn't matter which way I did it, the reward was always going to be the same?" Manufacturing the appearance of value and reward in computer games is really hard.
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Jan 16, 2014 16:36
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GreatGreen posted:That's awesome. I've always disliked the idea of grinding for XP because it really affects how you play the game, and it always seemed like a lazy way to implement a player progression mechanic to me. In Deus Ex Human Revolution, for example, the game falls all over itself telling you how many different ways you can play it, but the game incentivizes stealth gameplay over actiony guns blazing gameplay so much with such hugely unbalanced xp rewards for stealth that you're basically forced into full stealth mode all the time unless you want to be gimped as hell in the late game. With RPGs, this usually translates to "kill and loot absolutely everything that enters your field of view or suffer the opportunity cost of not doing so" which is just as limiting, really. While it's true that DEHR incentivizes stealth gameplay with XP rewards, you're hardly going to be gimped if you go through the game guns blazing. It doesn't really matter what augs you have as long as you've upgraded your weapons and have ammunition for them.
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Jan 16, 2014 16:40
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verybad posted:While it's true that DEHR incentivizes stealth gameplay with XP rewards, you're hardly going to be gimped if you go through the game guns blazing. It doesn't really matter what augs you have as long as you've upgraded your weapons and have ammunition for them. I always mildly disliked the fact that you got more XP for stealth putdowns than killings. It's like they rewarded you with silence AND XP, for stealth take-downs. 
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Jan 16, 2014 16:45
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Wingless posted:This raise the problem of how do you reward any sort of devious thinking or extra effort on the player's part?
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Jan 16, 2014 16:57
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Drifter posted:I always mildly disliked the fact that you got more XP for stealth putdowns than killings. It's like they rewarded you with silence AND XP, for stealth take-downs. I only played DXHR 1.5 times (once full stealth/non-lethal and a half game up to Montreal of a more lethal approach) and it seemed to me I didn't need as much experience if I was just shooting people, steathily or not. Successful stealth in the later levels really relies on those high level augments unless you're ridiculously good whereas shooting people and not caring about cameras and drones started easy and just got easier, even on "Deus Ex" difficulty.
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Jan 16, 2014 16:59
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Wingless posted:This raise the problem of how do you reward any sort of devious thinking or extra effort on the player's part? There is a horrible trap between "Ugh, so there's only one right way to do it!" and "Ugh, so it doesn't matter which way I did it, the reward was always going to be the same?" I've always thought that coming up with and executing creative things while accomplishing your goals and not dying are kind of their own rewards. They feel awesome on their own. You don't need a number flashing on the screen to tell you what you just did was cool. I guess on-screen scoreboards and per-kill rewards (excluding loot) kinda feel like sitcom laugh tracks to me. THAT JOKE WAS FUNNY LAUGH AT IT. WHAT YOU JUST DID IN THE GAME WAS COOL HERE'S SOME VALIDATION VIA ONSCREEN FLASHING NUMBERS. I think progress or checkpoint-based rewards completely eliminate the "one right way" problem, too. If all you have to do is get through the level, you're free to kill everybody or make all the enemies fight themselves until they all die (without worrying about the game tagging you for aggro and thus rewarding you with xp when they die) or stealth past everybody or friend everybody and make them join your party. It doesn't matter. As long as you get to the end, you're rewarded fully. Conversely, if you're rewarded per-kill, then a sneaky rogue ghosting the level would be the objectively worst way to do everything, even if it's the most fun for some people. So what you do to counter balance that is to give weird, proximity based "stealth past" rewards... which means now players are encouraged to stealth past enemies for the xp... then double back and kill them for the kill xp. And now you've just created a totally unnatural and awkward "optimal" playstyle. I really think there are basically no downsides to progression or checkpoint based xp, for both the player and the designer. The problem is that this makes the game feel much more free and sandboxy, and modern design schools teach that you must reward literally everything the player does under the assumption that the player has no confidence or sense of what's fun and must be told constantly how much fun he's having through validation by reward. GreatGreen fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Jan 16, 2014 |
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Jan 16, 2014 17:02
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Wingless posted:This raise the problem of how do you reward any sort of devious thinking or extra effort on the player's part? There is a horrible trap between "Ugh, so there's only one right way to do it!" and "Ugh, so it doesn't matter which way I did it, the reward was always going to be the same?" Fate points 
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Jan 16, 2014 17:03
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rope kid posted:If it is not rewarding enough to play on its own, stop playing our terrible game. I did not think making a general comment on reward structure in computer games would provoke such a weirdly snarky response. There's a reason games have XP and levels and money and loot and shiny things and feats and powers. It is to give the player a sense of achievement and progress. You can bet BG2 would not have been as successful if it was just an interactive story with no reward structures in place. I don't get why this is such a horrible thing to talk about.
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Jan 16, 2014 17:04
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If you have an XP system you already have an explicit reward structure for the player. It makes sense to have that reward structure incentivise playing the game in an interesting way; players will go for the long term reward over the short term gameplay reward almost every time simply because that is how people play RPGs. However, the gameplay itself can also be more or less rewarding. A game that reacts to the manner in which you accomplish something specifically is more rewarding than one which ignores it. Etc.
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Jan 16, 2014 17:09
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SurrealityCheck posted:If you have an XP system you already have an explicit reward structure for the player. It makes sense to have that reward structure incentivise playing the game in an interesting way; players will go for the long term reward over the short term gameplay reward almost every time simply because that is how people play RPGs. Alpha Protocol style perks, will this be a thing?
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Jan 16, 2014 17:14
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rope kid posted:If it is not rewarding enough to play on its own, stop playing our terrible game. Kibayasu posted:I only played DXHR 1.5 times (once full stealth/non-lethal and a half game up to Montreal of a more lethal approach) and it seemed to me I didn't need as much experience if I was just shooting people, steathily or not. Successful stealth in the later levels really relies on those high level augments unless you're ridiculously good whereas shooting people and not caring about cameras and drones started easy and just got easier, even on "Deus Ex" difficulty. I meant stealth vs kill takedowns. Not just going on a shooting spree. You get more XP by putting someone unconscious than by snapping their neck.
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Jan 16, 2014 17:16
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Drifter posted:I meant stealth vs kill takedowns. Not just going on a shooting spree. You get more XP by putting someone unconscious than by snapping their neck.
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Jan 16, 2014 17:18
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I really there aren't super-rare random drops. I hate that Diablo-style loot deal when I'm playing an old-school RPG.
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Jan 16, 2014 17:21
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I'd be pretty shocked if anything more than scrub level loot was randomized. As most of the quests/monsters/loot opportunities are finite it'd make no sense at all for anything of real value to be a random drop.
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Jan 16, 2014 17:24
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Same. The way this game is shaping up random high-level drops just wouldn't make sense to me. It seems like if you're going to get a legendary or epic item, it'll be because you wrenched it from the hands of the epic baddy who wields it. Which reminds me: Are there plans to let the game continue after you've "beaten" it a la Fallout 1 and 2? I mean, having the option to save the Mega Dungeon until after you've saved the world so you can use the awesome MacGuffin you took from the final boss would be pretty cool.
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Jan 16, 2014 17:26
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Yeah throwing my hat in for interesting newgame++ stuff aside from enemy HP bloat.
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Jan 16, 2014 17:31
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Lotish posted:so you can use the awesome MacGuffin you took from the final boss would be pretty cool. If you can take and use it, is it really a macguffin?
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Jan 16, 2014 17:46
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Otto Skorzeny posted:If you can take and use it, is it really a macguffin? MacGuffin is the name of the Claymore used by the villain. It's like how you name your car or p-due.
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Jan 16, 2014 17:52
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I think the opportunity to tackle each encounter/quest in various ways is rewarding enough for me. Your party being quite beaten up from the last fight? Sneak around the next group of enemies/talk your way through and therefore decrease the risk of having your companions knocked out/lose the fight. The reward for initiating combat should be actually having fun playing the combat or the emotional satisfaction of beating down a bad guy through the ongoing story. I really dislike the thought of having a separate system giving you (shallow) rewards and patting you on the head, telling you how clever you were handling the latest encounter.
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Jan 16, 2014 18:02
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Boggus posted:I really dislike the thought of having a separate system giving you (shallow) rewards and patting you on the head, telling you how clever you were handling the latest encounter. It doesn't have to reward you, but it's cool when a game acknowledges it. Even if it's just a different line of dialogue here or there. 'The scouts are saying the bastards didn't even know you were there!' vs 'Hah. They won't be coming out of their little hidey hole again any time soon.' Makes the world feel more believable.
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Jan 16, 2014 18:11
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Otto Skorzeny posted:If you can take and use it, is it really a macguffin? Well, I was thinking something like the Nano Forge in Red Faction: Guerilla. It's one of the reasons why the EDF is scared and sends their most dangerous forces and equipment to Mars, and you can use it to obliterate buildings and, later, win the game. It's a plot device with in game purpose. George Lucas described R2 as the MacGuffin of the original Star Wars because everyone's looking for that droid, motivating the action, even though he's useful to the cast and not just literal luggage. So, yeah, if the plot revolves around stealing the Stone of Souls from someone who was going to use it to trap all the souls that would be lost in a political conflict they orchestrated in order to power a spiritual bomb that would blow a hole into the realm of the gods or something, letting us use it to at least kill a bunch of dudes and then use their souls to nuke other dudes like a limit break would be kind of fun but not diminish its value as a MacGuffin.
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Jan 16, 2014 18:13
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Space Pussy posted:Yeah throwing my hat in for interesting newgame++ stuff aside from enemy HP bloat. They've said they'll do something like the Icewind Dale New Game+ and that wasn't just bigger numbers but also new unique cooler items you couldn't get on the lesser difficulty.
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Jan 16, 2014 18:19
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CottonWolf posted:It doesn't have to reward you, but it's cool when a game acknowledges it. Even if it's just a different line of dialogue here or there. This is true. Any dialog or world event, like a building crumbling or something, is great for acknowledging specific player behavior. Mechanically speaking though, the game shouldn't treat any approach differently from any other in terms of rewards provided.
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Jan 16, 2014 18:24
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DatonKallandor posted:They've said they'll do something like the Icewind Dale New Game+ and that wasn't just bigger numbers but also new unique cooler items you couldn't get on the lesser difficulty. Is that going to separate from Path of the Damned? Because I was looking forward to hating myself when I play PoD/Ironman/Expert first playthrough 
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Jan 16, 2014 18:29
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GreatGreen posted:This is true. Any dialog or world event, like a building crumbling or something, is great for acknowledging specific player behavior. Mechanically speaking though, the game shouldn't treat any approach differently from any other in terms of rewards provided. This I agree with, along with CottonWolf's quote you quoted. Acknowledging player agency is one of the things a computer game can do really easily, if the dev decides to do it (which can be time consuming). It's a very rewarding feeling to have it happen, though. Drifter fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Jan 16, 2014 |
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Jan 16, 2014 18:31
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Hey, Ropekid, any chance of another environmental video for the next update? Just a simple timelapse video would be cool. The environments are looking great and I'd love to see them in motion.
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Jan 16, 2014 18:37
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Drifter posted:This I agree with, along with CottonWolf's quote you quoted. Acknowledging player agency is one of the things a computer game can do really easily, if the dev decides to do it (which can be time consuming). It's a very rewarding feeling to have it happen, though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbtwVdC-oTQ
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Jan 16, 2014 18:44
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Mr.Pibbleton posted:Alpha Protocol style perks, will this be a thing? This would be extremely awesome, though I don't know if they'd fit with the whole "Infinity Engine successor" theme. I enjoyed using lasers in New Vegas, and I was thrilled when the game said "oh you like lasers? Well since you've used them so much, have a critical chance boost!"
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Jan 16, 2014 18:58
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2house2fly posted:This would be extremely awesome, though I don't know if they'd fit with the whole "Infinity Engine successor" theme. I think they were actually mentioend near the end of the Kickstarter campaign by some dev in passing. Dunno if the idea was actually implemented, but I don't see how it doesn't fit the paradigm, considering the game also has stuff like locational reputations, no behind-the-scenes rounds, and a whole host of changes compared to the Infinity Engine games. Upmarket Mango posted:Hey, Ropekid, any chance of another environmental video for the next update? Just a simple timelapse video would be cool. The environments are looking great and I'd love to see them in motion. Only the OEI devs would know, but given they said the next update would deal with classes I'd say that's unlikely. I'm hoping we'll get some sort of mini-videos showcasing the various classes abilities, but that's just wishful thinking, more realistically it's going to take a while until they show some gameplay again.
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Jan 16, 2014 19:14
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Wingless posted:I did not think making a general comment on reward structure in computer games would provoke such a weirdly snarky response. SurrealityCheck posted:If you have an XP system you already have an explicit reward structure for the player. It makes sense to have that reward structure incentivise playing the game in an interesting way; players will go for the long term reward over the short term gameplay reward almost every time simply because that is how people play RPGs. In-world reactions are something we will always emphasize because those reactions are purely for role-playing purposes. Sometimes the reactions are positive, sometimes they are negative, but they are intended to typically (though not always) align with the role the player sets out to play among the world's characters. If you're playing Alpha Protocol and Mike just starts blasting marines at the Embassy, I doubt players are negatively surprised by the reaction they get from other characters for it. You start blasting marines because of the reactions you're going to get!
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Jan 16, 2014 19:16
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Usage-based perks are horrible. Think of Oblivion and Skyrim and how crappy and "gamey" the whole thing was because everything you did counted toward character development, so ultimately players aiming for specific builds held back from a lot of otherwise natural behaviors because it would literally mess up their characters. In my opinion all character development should happen because of direct spending of upgrade resources on the part of the player. That way, you're free in-game to do whatever you want with minimal meta-game consequences. GreatGreen fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Jan 16, 2014 |
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Jan 16, 2014 19:22
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GreatGreen posted:Usage-based perks are horrible. Think of Oblivion and Skyrim and how crappy and "gamey" the whole thing was because everything you did counted toward character development, so ultimately players aiming for specific builds held back from a lot of otherwise natural behaviors because it would literally mess up their characters.
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Jan 16, 2014 19:38
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GreatGreen posted:Usage-based perks are horrible. Think of Oblivion and Skyrim and how crappy and "gamey" the whole thing was because everything you did counted toward character development, so ultimately players aiming for specific builds held back from a lot of otherwise natural behaviors because it would literally mess up their characters. I would disagree, the only problem with the Oblivion/Skyrim system is that your levels were also tied into the enemy difficulty meaning that if someone hasn't focused on combat skills at all and instead has been focusing on stuff like non combat magic and smithing they will soon run into a massive difficulty spike and that tends to make the game much less fun. The actual system of gaining skill levels as you use them is, IMO, still a pretty great system and works really well from a roleplaying perspective, the problems arise when non combat skills increase your general level and that general level is then tied into the monster difficulty because no matter how strong your alteration or enchanting skill is, it won't really help you kill the big bad guy any easier. Of course, there is always the happy medium where points gained on level-up can be directly applied wherever you choose (or only applied to combat oriented skills) yet there are also crafting and other random skills that are increased by use.
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Jan 16, 2014 19:40
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