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Luquos posted:Both of those suggestions go against one of the key design ideas behind most turn-base strategy games, though, which is making things about the strategy and not randomly loving over the player, which both of those are. Because there's no way to plan around them, they'd just end up being frustrating. (I think this is referred to as artificial difficulty, but I could be wrong) You'd get way more use out of SHIV/MEC cover if there was any midgame disadvantage to just snagging as much pre-existing stuff as possible. As it stands, SHIVs upgraded enough to stay relevant are an expensive novelty if you develop a stable of troopers, and MEC troopers usually get Jetboots to so they can get around the place easier and get more crits on their massive weapons (while One For All mostly just gets grenades thrown at your guys).
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Apr 12, 2014 02:47
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jBrereton posted:Don't crouch by cars automatically, manage your encounters with EXALT rather than throwing every rookie at them, and/or have some kind of long-duration screening process to weed them out at the cost of troops not being available during that time. Not a million miles away from mechanics that already exist. Making cover randomly explode is an awful idea and you should feel bad. And the whole "undercover exalt" idea seems terrible. You randomly lose units for no reason at all. You might as well have 1/5 soldiers heads explode during the middle of a mission. It would basically be the same mechanic, just less frustrating because at least they don't start shooting you. The screening process would only change it to another slightly less terrible mechanic. You know what sounds fun? Forcing you to wait an extra X amount of days before you can use any rookies you hire. I think it might have been fun to have exalt show up to help out the aliens some times. Maybe they respond to downed alien ships? They could be another source of cannon fodder for the aliens in that case.
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Apr 12, 2014 04:56
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Luquos posted:Both of those suggestions go against one of the key design ideas behind most turn-base strategy games, though, which is making things about the strategy and not randomly loving over the player, which both of those are. Because there's no way to plan around them, they'd just end up being frustrating. (I think this is referred to as artificial difficulty, but I could be wrong) This is why Exalt doesn't have shotgun assaults with run and gun/rapid fire, actually.
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Apr 12, 2014 05:04
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DrOswald posted:
Or they show up to try and steal the guns, so now everyone is fighting everyone. It would make it more difficult, and definitely lead to frustration from almost capturing an alien only to have EXALT blast it. Still would be an interesting wrinkle though.
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Apr 12, 2014 05:17
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seaborgium posted:Or they show up to try and steal the guns, so now everyone is fighting everyone. It would make it more difficult, and definitely lead to frustration from almost capturing an alien only to have EXALT blast it. Still would be an interesting wrinkle though. Oh god yes, three-sided battles would be amazing. But only if you get some sort of advance notice, like before combat or in the first few turns, to avoid capturing-cockblocking nonsense.
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Apr 12, 2014 05:46
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grimlock_master posted:Oh god yes, three-sided battles would be amazing. But only if you get some sort of advance notice, like before combat or in the first few turns, to avoid capturing-cockblocking nonsense. "We've also detected signs of an EXALT transport vehicle in the area, Commander. Keep an eye out there, this could get messy."
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Apr 12, 2014 06:07
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This may be a daft question but I noticed when you first MEC'd Tiny that he was equipped with standard cybernetic limbs instead of the full MEC suit. Can you do anything when he's like that, or are those just his lounging-around off-duty limbs?
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Apr 12, 2014 06:50
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TheDarkFlame posted:This may be a daft question but I noticed when you first MEC'd Tiny that he was equipped with standard cybernetic limbs instead of the full MEC suit. Can you do anything when he's like that, or are those just his lounging-around off-duty limbs? The latter. MEC limbs are a little too crushy for drinking a beer. And the last person that tried a fistbump with a guy in a MEC suit...well, let's just say he also needed a MEC suit very shortly thereafter. Boosh.
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Apr 12, 2014 07:05
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Those are just their lounging-about limbs designed in-game to give them "some semblance of a life after the war is over" and out-of-game so they don't have to model some sort of absurd torso man hanging about your base without his arms and legs. The MEC suits are pieces of equipment and can be swapped from one to the other, so the robotic normal limbs are there so they can function without the MEC suit. Just imagine trying to cook breakfast and you Boosh your stove through the wall and kill your neighbor.
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Apr 12, 2014 07:07
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I almost feel like there's enough material to make a comic series about the life of someone trying to live in a MEC suit. Take Restorative Mist, for example. "Did you just fart?" "...No." "My scar is healing." "Okay, maybe."
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Apr 12, 2014 07:16
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Since we're on MEC-Chat, I just wanted to make a comment on gameplay with them. Now that I've managed to finish a run-through (thanks to Jade Star and GuavaMoment pointing out literally everything I had been doing wrong), and got a fully-leveled MEC in the play through, I only have a few complaints. I agree with everyone stating that the MECs and SHIVs are too much alike. I felt like my MEC was a just SHIV I was afraid of losing at times, unless I could charge ahead and use the Boosh-O-Matic. The MECs had a few extra things here and there, yeah, but nothing that truly separated them from the idea of a heavy tank that would just light up the sky with mini gun/laser/whatever the gently caress, which is pretty much what the SHIV could do as well. If I knew dick poo poo about programming I'd seriously be tempted to make a mod to turn the MEC into something resembling a Warhammer 40,000 Space Marine - an aggressive as gently caress, run-into-the-face-of-the-enemy-and-start-slaughtering death machine. Give the MEC guns and stuff, yeah, but allow them to make use of those huge, powerful arms. Let them pick up a concrete divider or a car and throw it 5 squares, let them grab an enemy with less than 3 health and physically chuck them back into the enemy lines. Hell, make an intimidation factor in the system, where if you had a MEC come running in and one-shot a Mectoid or Muton, have him/her do an intimidation check on the supporting Sectoids/Thin Men/generally weaker aliens in the surrounding 5 squares. I mean, the little shits just watched their biggest, baddest comrade get punched in the face so hard that it died and now this abomination of death is standing 3 squares away from them. Make them freak out a bit over that, or something. The "raining heavy fire and death from 10 squares away" thing could easily be attributed to the SHIV or a general heavy. Not to say that SHIVs aren't useful - I got hosed on a previous mission and had a particularly difficult DLC mission to run through, and for some reason the aliens were more freaked out by the presence of the SHIV than my low-level MEC and soldiers. I actually had the SHIV survive an impossible chain of shots thanks to the RNG, with a Mectoid missing from 4 squares away twice, one missed Sectoid shot and one missed Thin Man shot. Honestly, it was so bad that, were I playing on the other side, I would be tempted just to restart the mission because it was that brazen. 
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Apr 12, 2014 08:20
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What happens if you punch an alien/EXALT into another MEC? More importantly, can they high-five afterward?
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Apr 12, 2014 12:54
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Ah EXALT, the Cult of Sirius to the Mec Troopers SELF and the Bio-Troopers... whatever the mutant group is called. I wonder if it was intentional to make me think of apocalypse with Enemy within?
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Apr 12, 2014 13:07
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Onmi posted:Ah EXALT, the Cult of Sirius to the Mec Troopers SELF and the Bio-Troopers... whatever the mutant group is called. The EXALT/Cult of Sirius connection is definitely intentional, but I think the others are more coincidental. MECs and gene-mods don't share the same traits as androids and mutants.
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Apr 12, 2014 13:10
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Emissary666 posted:The EXALT/Cult of Sirius connection is definitely intentional, but I think the others are more coincidental. MECs and gene-mods don't share the same traits as androids and mutants. No but it's got almost the same kind of fallout? what happens to all those MEC Troopers once the war is over? Where to they fall on the "rights" scale? More importantly the Gene-Modded soldiers aren't fully human anymore, what happens to their children if they procreate with non-gene modders? I think it's almost Proto-Apocalypse up here. Not quite there, but entirely able to go in that direction simply with what's been presented.
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Apr 12, 2014 13:25
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DrOswald posted:Making cover randomly explode is an awful idea and you should feel bad. At the moment, sometimes you will get a grenade thrown at you if you have several guys together in cover by an alien that you've known was around for at least one, really two, rounds of shooting. That's not that much of a threat if you have means to take them out with Squadsight/Rockets/more firepower than them/your own grenades/etc. You could take the time out to shoot up the cars yourself and get rid of the threat, but that's time and ammo you're wasting when you might still be earnestly hunting for MELD/getting worried about not having seen any alien teams yet. Or you could take the cover upgrade for your MECs/try to get alloy SHIVs early and keep advancing at the old pace, but without jetboot access/with worse finances overall. Spices up the mechanics a bit, at the very least. quote:And the whole "undercover exalt" idea seems terrible. You randomly lose units for no reason at all. You might as well have 1/5 soldiers heads explode during the middle of a mission. It would basically be the same mechanic, just less frustrating because at least they don't start shooting you. The screening process would only change it to another slightly less terrible mechanic. You know what sounds fun? Forcing you to wait an extra X amount of days before you can use any rookies you hire. Let's put it this way: have you ever, in any playthrough, on any difficulty, lost a soldier to EXALT except by shockingly bad play? I'm guessing almost everyone's answer to that is "no". They do way less damage than the aliens, you can turn off their guns in any case, the abilities they use are deliberately not very effective, and they're compelled to dash for objectives out in the open that are usually pretty easy to guard with a total crossfire. Having some risk to doing their missions would help XCOM's middle game. As it stands, easily the most dangerous and tense portion of the game is the first month and ten days, and after that it tails off, eventually becomes kinda repetitive, and then you school pretty much every encounter after May-June and eventually complete the game long after the challenge has gone. jBrereton fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Apr 12, 2014 |
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Apr 12, 2014 15:11
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Onmi posted:No but it's got almost the same kind of fallout? what happens to all those MEC Troopers once the war is over? Where to they fall on the "rights" scale? More importantly the Gene-Modded soldiers aren't fully human anymore, what happens to their children if they procreate with non-gene modders? I'm fairly certain genemodding isn't hereditary, much in the same vein that chopping off the arms of an entire family doesn't mean their children will be born without arms. Genes do not work that way. As for "rights"? They were still a part of an initiative that helped save the world and they'd be lauded as heroes no matter what they went through. There's a big difference between random selected superpowers and people enhanced by scientific breakthroughs. And unlike other situations where you'd end up with a moralistic outcome of your every day jobs suddenly not hiring "normals" because gene-modded soldiers are so much better in every way, remember that it isn't an inexhaustible supply of genemods available; they are limited by the number of alien bodies available, which is extremely finite. I don't really think it'll be such a bit problem.
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Apr 12, 2014 15:22
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jBrereton posted:One of the most interesting missions in the whole game, unless you play it like in the guide and completely trivialise it, is the Newfoundland mission, because it does something which literally no other map in the entire game does, by playing with cover and the idea of the safety of the environment. Newfoundland works so nicely because it's such an inversion of the standard play-style of the game. All of the opponents are melee combatants, so cover is completely irrelevant for that one mission. But at the same time, it doesn't completely up-end everything by making cover outright kill you, and the one piece of cover that IS somewhat dangerous gets pointed out as being extremely suspect early on. I suppose it would work if this IED was some sort of in-game object a player could spot, but that would just make EXALT missions take longer as you scoured your cover spots for bombs set by jerks in vests. quote:It's the exact same method as other troop-altering mechanics, and it would make EXALT more than just a milk run. But it's not the same! Mind control is the biggie in-game, and it's both temporary and highly controllable by shooting the MCer in the face with space-guns. What you're proposing is potentially losing soldiers permanently whenever you walk into an EXALT mission, just for them being there. That's completely unacceptable because you can't do anything to mitigate it tactically, and forcing the player to spend money and/or time on some kind of screening process to ensure they don't have a lieutenant sniper go rogue doesn't seem to add anything to the fun-factor. It looks comparable to psi-screening on the surface, but psi-screening costs resources and returns soldiers who are potentially better than before. Choices in games should ideally be between two good things, rather than two negative outcomes, and I think this leans way more toward the latter. You're certainly right that EXALT needs help, of course. The only mission they ever threatened me on was one where my entire stable of non-rookies aside from a single sergeant was in the hospital due to a series of unfortunate events (Thin Men). I had to take that Sergeant and four rookies up against EXALT with one laser rifle for the whole team due to poverty. It was actually really bad. Only reason I won was because I'd been handed an Assault with a choice between Gunslinger and, like, Holo-targeting or something. Sent her as the Operative for every EXALT mission ever. Training Roulette is great, is what I mean.
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Apr 12, 2014 15:33
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Mordaedil posted:I'm fairly certain genemodding isn't hereditary, much in the same vein that chopping off the arms of an entire family doesn't mean their children will be born without arms. Genes do not work that way. Genes do work that way. It's literally what the word gene means. quote:
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Apr 12, 2014 17:05
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Bremen posted:Genes do work that way. It's literally what the word gene means. This is an issue that requires way too much "Well, Superman would need to wear a kryptonite condom, which would kill him" style hypothetical debate. It would be entirely dependent on how widespread the gene manipulation was and whether they affected the germ cell line, or would instead be limited to the portions of the anatomy affected by said gene-mod. Even if they weren't limited, it wouldn't affect our female soldiers whose gametes have been pre-formed for years. Still, I would probably suggest that any soldiers in line for gene modification freeze a whole lot of sperm/eggs-for-surrogate if they intended to breed after having the procedure.
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Apr 12, 2014 17:24
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Bremen posted:Genes do work that way. It's literally what the word gene means. To pass on mutated genes, the mutation would have to be in germ cells (the sperm/eggs). I somewhat doubt XCOM would go out of their way to cause that, unless they expect the war to go on for a very long time. Telum fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Apr 13, 2014 |
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Apr 12, 2014 17:27
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Yeah, I'm not saying they'd be passed on, that was a different poster. I just objected to saying changing genes had nothing to do with heredity. edit: Not that I don't understand the confusion. The game seems to imply that meld is being used to directly interface the human with alien organs, which leaves the question of why it's called genemodding other than "it sounded cool." Bremen fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Apr 12, 2014 |
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Apr 12, 2014 17:33
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My point was that genes do not work that way, in that they don't magically change by what changes you've performed to your body even to the cellular level. Genemods are after all not changing the Zack Ater posted:To pass on mutated genes, the mutation would have to be in germ cells (the sperm/eggs). I somewhat doubt XCOM would go out of there way to cause that, unless they expect the war to go on for a very long time. What this guy said. I also don't believe that meld is self-replicating, otherwise they'd have an infinite source of meld right there. Which means, no, there probably isn't enough time for your offspring to carry genes from genemelding.
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Apr 12, 2014 18:16
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Bremen posted:edit: Not that I don't understand the confusion. The game seems to imply that meld is being used to directly interface the human with alien organs, which leaves the question of why it's called genemodding other than "it sounded cool." Maybe the genetic modification is localized? The nanomachines in the meld being responsible for maintaining what's basically a hybrid human/alien organ which the human body would normally reject?
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Apr 12, 2014 18:55
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my dad posted:Maybe the genetic modification is localized? The nanomachines in the meld being responsible for maintaining what's basically a hybrid human/alien organ which the human body would normally reject? This is getting to be a kind of odd derail, but that would seem to require changing the genes for your immune system, which is not very localized (I'm not a biologist, but I believe it would involve changing the body's bone marrow.) Alternately since the gene mods don't require any corpses, just meld and money, it could be they're inserting the genes for the alien organs and letting the soldiers bodies grow their own. In this case heredity would depend on if the handwavy tech changes the entire body or just the specific parts and the immune system. Generally though I'm leaning towards "it's a surgical operation that doesn't involve genes at all, and the writers didn't do their research."
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Apr 12, 2014 19:06
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One of them involves you releasing clouds of adrenal musk. I hope that involves a new organ.
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Apr 12, 2014 19:42
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A few of the mods require doing an autopsy first, but at some point 'meld' gets involved in gene mods as well as all things MEC. Once the Magical Space Goo shows up, any 'what?' or 'why?' questions cease to be relevant because it is so mysterious the fluff writers can't even think of a convincing way to explain why it's so mysterious.
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Apr 12, 2014 20:06
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Zack Ater posted:To pass on mutated genes, the mutation would have to be in germ cells (the sperm/eggs). I somewhat doubt XCOM would go out of there way to cause that, unless they expect the war to go on for a very long time. Do you really think Vahlen would pass up a chance to create a new species of super mutants? I mean, yes. If it was just generic "XCOM scientists" working on the project, that would be reasonable as an assumption. With Vahlen, less so.
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Apr 12, 2014 20:51
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goatface posted:One of them involves you releasing clouds of adrenal musk. chiasaur11 posted:Do you really think Vahlen would pass up a chance to create a new species of super mutants? At least it makes recruitment easier for Shen. "Now, for the experimental Meld procedures, we can either remove all your limbs and give you bionic supersoldier replacements, or you can let Vahlen muck about with your genes." "Dr. Vahlen, sir? Genes?" "Yes... I'm not sure quite what she means by this, as the idea was to enhance parts of your body in various ways, although her projects do tend to have some mission creep. I did take a peek at her files last tuesday, and there was the one proposal for turning our soldiers into fishmen. For ufo retrieval at sea. Project codename 'Terrors in the Depths' or somesuch. Fun fact: given that 71 percent of the earth's surface is covered by water, Vahlen thinks a viable fishman offshoot race could extend human habitability considerably. I, on the other hand, am only starting to feel the deep, deep terrors she is so willing to plumb. Ah, but I am getting sidetracked. Do you wish to volunteer for mech upgrades or the potential gene tailoring?" "Sir, reporting for dismemberment duty, sir!"
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Apr 13, 2014 00:08
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Just wanted to say that Skippy was a god drat riot in this episode. Please bring him back for more Jade Star. I always liked the concept of Exalt. They never dropped any of my guys but they were always a big threat just with their numbers. I still remember missions where I would be going up against 10 of them and would spend a few minutes trying to figure out how to defend myself from the counterattack.
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Apr 13, 2014 00:28
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ReturnOfFable posted:Just wanted to say that Skippy was a god drat riot in this episode. Please bring him back for more Jade Star. You click the comm relay. Now you can save a few minutes of your life next time you face Exalt.
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Apr 13, 2014 00:52
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Bremen posted:This is getting to be a kind of odd derail, but that would seem to require changing the genes for your immune system, which is not very localized (I'm not a biologist, but I believe it would involve changing the body's bone marrow.) Speaking as a biologist, the only trick to preventing rejection you'd need is just "masking" the alien implant/gene modified stuff so it matches the standard cells of the body from the immune system's perspective, not altering the entire immune system. Well, that and integrating it neurologically so the subject could control their new abilities, but given making a MEC soldier would require both tricks also I presume the Meld handles the problems. quote:Alternately since the gene mods don't require any corpses, just meld and money, it could be they're inserting the genes for the alien organs and letting the soldiers bodies grow their own. In this case heredity would depend on if the handwavy tech changes the entire body or just the specific parts and the immune system. Given some of them would be fairly ridiculously extensive surgeries if they were straight implants (the invisibility trick would probably involve replacing the entire skin, for one), I can buy it being a gene therapy of some kind. God knows given the ridiculous level of improvement X-Com pulls off in technology successful gene therapy is actually a more plausible invention than most of the other magitech they can create from researching the alien stuff. I do actually suspect targeted gene therapy to specific regions rather than full body alteration though. Not counting X-Com's interest in leaving their operatives at least a reasonable chance of life post-war as shown with the MEC troops having "off-duty" limbs (and germ-line genetic changes would inevitably make gene soldiers sterile), it would probably take less Meld to change a smaller portion of their anatomy. And why bother altering the whole body with the genes needed for super-eyes if the eyes are the only place you need to express the genes in question?
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Apr 13, 2014 01:00
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Meld is basically nano-bots, right? So mimetic skin is probably an electrochromatic network generated in the top layer of the skin that can be activated by hormone release from an implanted/in-vivo grown gland.
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Apr 13, 2014 01:16
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Scribbleykins posted:
Dr. Vahlen does the amputations for MECs too.
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Apr 13, 2014 01:26
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goatface posted:Meld is basically nano-bots, right? So mimetic skin is probably an electrochromatic network generated in the top layer of the skin that can be activated by hormone release from an implanted/in-vivo grown gland. Hormonal signalling is very slow. You can't turn invisible with the press of a button. If you need all skin cells to do a thing at the same time you need nerve signalling. Which involves those nerves being grown and the brain being trained to use them. Theorizing really won't bring you anywhere in this game. Not worth trying.
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Apr 13, 2014 01:30
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Stallion Cabana posted:Dr. Vahlen does the amputations for MECs too. Shen lets that woman do his amputations? I figured him for a hands-off kinda boss, but that's harsh!
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Apr 13, 2014 01:32
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GenericServices posted:Shen lets that woman do his amputations? I figured him for a hands-off kinda boss, but that's harsh! He also lets her do most of the running of the engineering department. Really, he's just there to fill in her paperwork.
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Apr 13, 2014 01:43
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Stallion Cabana posted:Dr. Vahlen does the amputations for MECs too. 
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Apr 13, 2014 02:06
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GenericServices posted:Shen lets that woman do his amputations? I figured him for a hands-off kinda boss, but that's harsh!  Seconding the Skippy comments. More Skippy, less "One-Take" primadonnaing! 
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Apr 13, 2014 02:08
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Nekomimi-Maiden posted:
Agreed. I was in near tears from laughing after he finished his impersonation of Dr Vahlen. Also, in the video, it was brought up that you can use the arc thrower on EXALT units, but you can't probe 'em with the containment unit. So, is there a point to doing it? Will you actually get a benefit for tazing and capturing an EXALT operative, or does it just take them out of the fight as if you had killed them?
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Apr 13, 2014 14:29
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