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MothraAttack posted:Residents are reporting that Ansar Dine fighters have begun systematically destroying Timbuktu's historic holy sites. This loving sucks. The Mali and Songhai empires are cool as gently caress and I really like the architecture. Cultural and historic treasures lost 
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Jul 1, 2012 02:12
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Orange Devil posted:This loving sucks. The Mali and Songhai empires are cool as gently caress and I really like the architecture. Cultural and historic treasures lost We all know how much those Islamists love cultural and historic treasures. 
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Jul 1, 2012 05:58
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TheIllestVillain posted:We all know how much those Islamists love cultural and historic treasures. Every religion has a tradition of systematically destroying the idols of their competing systems. Islam is no different in this.
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Jul 1, 2012 06:08
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I can't believe Fouad Ajami wrote a book about the Syrian Revolution already. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/17/books/review/the-syrian-rebellion-by-fouad-ajami.html?pagewanted=all
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Jul 1, 2012 10:05
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Kaal posted:Every religion has a tradition of systematically destroying the idols of their competing systems. Islam is no different in this. Two wrongs don't make a right and the Islamists dedication in this particular endeavour is a great indication of the sort of people they are. poo poo people believing in a poo poo idea.
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Jul 1, 2012 11:07
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Xandu posted:I can't believe Fouad Ajami wrote a book about the Syrian Revolution already. Fouad Ajami should never be taken seriously on anything ever, his opinions and writings are worthless and if it weren't for the fact that his audience doesnt know any better or for the fact that he tells Zionists what they want to hear, he'd be quickly exposed as a fraud.
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Jul 1, 2012 11:08
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Al-Saqr posted:Fouad Ajami should never be taken seriously on anything ever, his opinions and writings are worthless and if it weren't for the fact that his audience doesnt know any better or for the fact that he tells Zionists what they want to hear, he'd be quickly exposed as a fraud. Oh I know, he's a total hack.
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Jul 1, 2012 11:10
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Wow Car bomb explodes at Syrian funeral in Zamalka.  obviouslyhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyD0hBR83v8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlBM2wj-44M
Xandu fucked around with this message at 11:34 on Jul 1, 2012 |
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Jul 1, 2012 11:32
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Section 31 posted:Well, I for one appreciated him for inventing an interesting "meme" with his speech. Speaking of speech, does anyone have the full translated version of Morsi inaguration speech? http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=30153
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Jul 1, 2012 11:35
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Thanks. Anyway I normally don't post news from Daily Mail, but this one is rather...interesting, to say the least. quote:Gentleman, choose your weapons: Behind the scenes at the special forces arms fair loved by trigger happy generals (and no, the one with the beard isn't Sacha Baron Cohen) edit: Not sure whether it's a good idea but I'm thinking a thread title = Middle East Wars: Sponsored by Sofex Section 31 fucked around with this message at 13:19 on Jul 1, 2012 |
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Jul 1, 2012 13:09
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Can anybody confirm this is anti-government/translate what they're saying? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sskzrc9VvXc They have the regime flags there, and I'm not sure if the title is giving false information, or if it really is anti-government.
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Jul 1, 2012 14:16
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edit: ignore, already covered 
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Jul 1, 2012 16:20
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Kaal posted:Every religion has a tradition of systematically destroying the idols of their competing systems. Islam is no different in this. Timbuktu and the Songhai Empire were all islamic enteties though, so it is not really like the buddah demolition.
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Jul 1, 2012 16:33
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Speaking of Mali...quote:Mali Islamists to continue destroying UNESCO sites Section 31 fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Jul 1, 2012 |
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Jul 1, 2012 17:17
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quote:Turkey scrambles F-16 jets on Syria border
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Jul 1, 2012 17:21
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Xandu posted:Wow The NY Times Watching Syria project has been looking at this, there's some reports it was a shell hitting a car as well.
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Jul 1, 2012 18:27
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quote:Various Thai and South Korean commanders have a ball taking snaps of themselves with American special forces officers, who they treat like Justin Bieber.
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Jul 1, 2012 19:07
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Zudgemud posted:Timbuktu and the Songhai Empire were all islamic enteties though, so it is not really like the buddah demolition. Islam is hardly practiced uniformly; there are many competing sects. Comparisons could be made with the seizure and destruction of Catholic holy sites during the English Protestant Reformation, or even the story of the idolatrous Golden Calf as told in the Old Testament Bible (which concludes with Moses "mercifully" grinding up the idol and forcing his followers to drink it, then killing 3,000 heretics).
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Jul 1, 2012 19:13
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Kaal posted:Islam is hardly practiced uniformly; there are many competing sects. Comparisons could be made with the seizure and destruction of Catholic holy sites during the English Protestant Reformation, or even the story of the idolatrous Golden Calf as told in the Old Testament Bible (which concludes with Moses "mercifully" grinding up the idol and forcing his followers to drink it, then killing 3,000 heretics). or the sacking of Constantinople during the 4th Crusade.
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Jul 1, 2012 19:16
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Section 31 posted:Speaking of Mali... Ugh. I'm not a massive history buff but stuff like this still pisses me off. Irreplacable relics and historical sites? Nope, gotta go. SMASH.  I hope later when they're going over the ruins it turned out they sacked and destroyed something from their own denomination just to highlight how goddamn ignorant these people are.
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Jul 1, 2012 19:25
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Jarmak posted:You telling me these guys are capable of taking out armor but not reading a compass? Two very different things but yes, taking out armor is easier. I should know, I have been trained in that very niche. (Old MCLOS-guided missiles are very hard to operate, though.) quote:Not at all, it limits it from its maximum potential, but it still an extremely useful weapon system even limited to operating within LOS of a local observer (as in an observer within yelling distance of the tube). The greatest utility of having indirect fire on the battlefield is to be able to place concentrated fire quickly on any points of resistance or advance routes within several kilometers range, as long as some mofo has a contact to the battery. Do they have more uses? Yes. Are those uses critical? No, I don't think so. If you can't do that then you negate a large part of what has made mortars so vital for contemporary armies. Single mortars acting on their own accordance are not going to alter outcomes of battles. They will not destroy or disperse groups of men caught in exposed ground, they will not deter an attacker from using an avenue. quote:The Afghans and Iraqis both used (and continue to in the case of the Afghans) mortars to great effect against US forces, why is it you think this is a skill beyond the reach of Syrian rebels? Do I? No, that's your strawman and I'd prefer you dropped it. Do I think they're effective? No. I have seen videos of Taliban mortar fire. 'Comically inaccurate' does not begin to describe the thing. That kind of thing does have a psychological effect though, but then an automatic grenade launcher would do the same at a lower weight and higher rate of fire. Your claim of 10 minutes of training being enough for effective use differs from my view of their effectiveness mostly lying in their use as an artillery system that takes much more training. As such I don't think that our views are going to meet.
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Jul 1, 2012 19:31
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computer parts posted:or the sacking of Constantinople during the 4th Crusade. Sure, though really that was done to plunder the city rather than for religious reasons. Of course I suppose that Cromwell's asset seizures during the English Reformation certainly had economic motivations as well. Nenonen posted:Your claim of 10 minutes of training being enough for effective use differs from my view of their effectiveness mostly lying in their use as an artillery system that takes much more training. As such I don't think that our views are going to meet. I think that your vision of what a mortar can be useful for is heavily colored by how Western militaries use it. You're too quick to dismiss the other uses of the equipment. Its ability to deliver indirect ranged fire on buildings and encampments makes it a fantastic tool for guerrilla warfare. Kaal fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Jul 1, 2012 |
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Jul 1, 2012 19:41
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Kaal posted:Islam is hardly practiced uniformly; there are many competing sects. Comparisons could be made with the seizure and destruction of Catholic holy sites during the English Protestant Reformation, or even the story of the idolatrous Golden Calf as told in the Old Testament Bible (which concludes with Moses "mercifully" grinding up the idol and forcing his followers to drink it, then killing 3,000 heretics). In this particular case, the mass-destruction of shrines to Sufi saints is a pretty common move in Islamic fundamentalist movements, which tend to be heavily iconoclastic. Or the government of S. Arabia, which skipped straight past desecrating just saints and has done things like pave over Muhammad's historic house and destroying the gravesites of Muhammad's companions and wives, out of fear of idolatrous worship of Muhammad and co. instead of Allah.
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Jul 1, 2012 19:43
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Kaal posted:Sure, though really that was done to plunder the city rather than for religious reasons. Yeah, Byzanthines had their own iconoclastic elements, which also affected Islamic culture and probably(?) was the cause of the Islamic iconoclasm. I don't know Islamic culture so well so correct me if I'm wrong. But it needs to be remembered that historically iconoclasms were usually connected to political infighting, eg. a new Pharaoh removing all mentions of the previous Pharaoh to put down the opposition. Likewise the Byzanthine iconoclastic phase had political connections. It's less usual to destroy ancient relics that the local population doesn't give a drat about, like with the Afghan buddha statues. Even then those buddhas were only destroyed in 2001, years after the Taliban takeover because initially Mullah Omar resisted the idea.
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Jul 1, 2012 19:56
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TheIllestVillain posted:We all know how much those Islamists love cultural and historic treasures. Ultras Lazio posted:Two wrongs don't make a right and the Islamists dedication in this particular endeavour is a great indication of the sort of people they are. 
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Jul 1, 2012 20:09
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More trouble for the Syrian government in Aleppo, a number of videos have been posted from Atarib by the FSA after reports of the Syrian Army retreating from the city.
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Jul 1, 2012 20:25
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Mans posted:Wasn't one of the main impulses to destroying the statues the fact that the warn torn country was offered money to repair the statues, and when the Taliban wanted to use that money elsewhere that money was refused? And those statues lived for more than 1000 years under Muslim states, don't blame radical extremism resulting from American and Soviet imperialism on Islam. If England was bombed into the stone age and constantly invaded while the United States only funded Neo-Druid fundamentalist groups you can be sure they'd blow up a lot of poo poo too. Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Jul 1, 2012 |
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Jul 1, 2012 20:41
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Mans posted:Wasn't one of the main impulses to destroying the statues the fact that the warn torn country was offered money to repair the statues, and when the Taliban wanted to use that money elsewhere that money was refused? And those statues lived for more than 1000 years under Muslim states, don't blame radical extremism resulting from American and Soviet imperialism on Islam. If England was bombed into the stone age and constantly invaded while the United States only funded Neo-Druid fundamentalist groups you can be sure they'd blow up a lot of poo poo too. I would but just the fact that you display cretin emoticons tells me that you probably wouldn't understand from the throne on your livingroom. I like that you recognize Ultras Lazio though but even in your try to some irony you missed a better trick: SS LAZIO 1900. (here, I give it free to you, you seem to use emoticons and hence short of words) Now, once you finish with centuries old comparisons, at some point, do say that destroying mosques because they are Shia, mosques because they are Sunni, shrines and tombs because they not Islamic enough is a poo poo thing to do. Today. Not 300 years ago. I hope you will want to quit this spat here. I am.
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Jul 1, 2012 20:55
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Mans posted:Wasn't one of the main impulses to destroying the statues the fact that the warn torn country was offered money to repair the statues, and when the Taliban wanted to use that money elsewhere that money was refused? No, the impulse was iconoclastic zeal. Rather, the statues were seen as a possible source of tourist income (can you imagine Buddhist pilgrims travelling to Taliban Afghanistan?) and you're correct in that international assistance for their conservation was requested. But the Taliban already damaged the buddhas before that. Even here it needs to be remembered that Taliban was/is not a homogenous movement that has always held the same policies for everything. It comes down to politics within. Wikipedia posted:Abdul Wahed, a Taliban commander operating in the area, announced his intention to blow up the Buddhas in 1997 even before he had taken control of the valley. Once he was in control of Bamiyan in 1998, Wahed drilled holes in the Buddhas' heads for explosives. He was prevented from taking further action by the local governor and direct order of Mullah Omar, although tyres were burnt on the head of the great Buddha. In July 1999, Mullah Mohammed Omar issued a decree in favor of the preservation of the Bamiyan Buddha's statue. Because Afghanistan's Buddhist population no longer exists, which removed the possibility of the statues being worshiped, he added: "The government considers the Bamiyan statues as an example of a potential major source of income for Afghanistan from international visitors. The Taliban states that Bamiyan shall not be destroyed but protected." In early 2000, local Taliban authorities asked for UN assistance to rebuild drainage ditches around tops of the alcoves in which the Buddhas were set.
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Jul 1, 2012 20:56
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Ultras Lazio posted:I would but just the fact that you display cretin emoticons tells me that you probably wouldn't understand from the throne on your livingroom. Nenonen posted:No, the impulse was iconoclastic zeal. Rather, the statues were seen as a possible source of tourist income (can you imagine Buddhist pilgrims travelling to Taliban Afghanistan?) and you're correct in that international assistance for their conservation was requested. But the Taliban already damaged the buddhas before that. On the other hand, as valuable as they are, people back then gave these statues more attention than the misery that the country was in. Historical monuments are important but people are 100 times more so. Brown Moses posted:More trouble for the Syrian government in Aleppo, a number of videos have been posted from Atarib by the FSA after reports of the Syrian Army retreating from the city. Wow, they are making outright offensives now? I was thinking the war was a defensive one, with Assad's men doing the offensive maneuvers.
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Jul 1, 2012 21:15
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There is zero defense for destruction of historical artifacts solely for the purpose of jerking off your own cult. None whatsoever.
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Jul 1, 2012 21:16
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Mans posted:Yeah it's a poo poo thing to do but it has zero to do with Islam and 100% to do with the social political and economical situation that bred these men into such religious extremisms, even if you can't accept that opinion. Your place in this thread is one of an "enlightened" right wing european looking at the barbarians fight to the death. A Lazio fan, basically. This is nonsensical. No one's putting Islam on trial here, but the Taliban are religious extremists who view such things as anti-Islam and idolatrous and that played a huge part in why they were destroyed. Likewise, the members of Ansar al-Din take issue with worshipping saints and have begun destroying shrines. Yes we can talk about the socio-economic situation, but that situation is not unique to the Islamists in Mali or Afghanistan.
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Jul 1, 2012 21:30
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Xandu posted:This is nonsensical. No one's putting Islam on trial here, but the Taliban are religious extremists who view such things as anti-Islam and idolatrous and that played a huge part in why they were destroyed. Ultras Lazio posted:
It was mainly a response to this. He's not the only person who look at the Middle East and Africa as savage lands with inferior peoples mostly because they're islamic and use the actions of these extremist religious groups to paint the whole of religion as one. Will this thread focus on Africa too? There's probably not enough coverage to warrant it's own thread.
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Jul 1, 2012 21:35
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I'd rather it be a separate thread. The Sahel is borderline and probably worth including, but below that's such a different topic.
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Jul 1, 2012 21:37
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I see Mali connected to the thread because the Arab Spring was a thing in Libya and Tuaregs are a thing in Libya too, while something like LRA in Uganda has no relation. On the other hand Hamas and Israel doing something is not tied to the topic unless, say, Egypt became directly involved.
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Jul 1, 2012 21:46
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The Tuareg rebellion was a direct consequence of the Libyan Civil War, so it would seem to be on topic here.
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Jul 1, 2012 22:07
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http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/world/300579/timbuktu-shrine-destruction-a-war-crime-icc-prosecutorquote:Islamist rebels in northern Mali smashed four more tombs of ancient Muslim saints in Timbuktu on Sunday as the International Criminal Court warned their campaign of destruction was a war crime. While this is pretty explicitly a war crime, I think the ICC going to get some bad press for focusing on this given all the other problems in the country.
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Jul 1, 2012 22:10
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Xandu posted:While this is pretty explicitly a war crime, I think the ICC going to get some bad press for focusing on this given all the other problems in the country. Shouting "Stop or I shall say stop again!" probably isn't helping their image either.
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Jul 1, 2012 22:13
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Xandu posted:While this is pretty explicitly a war crime, I think the ICC going to get some bad press for focusing on this given all the other problems in the country. I don't know if this isn't just a case of unintentional media bias. If the destruction of the relics wasn't already in the news because of the extraordinarity of the event, would the ICC prosecutor's comment even be making news? If a dog bites a man is it news? In other news, UN Security Council's committee on Iran released their annual report for this year (which is a surprise, last year's was blocked by Russia), 67 pages long, which mentions two cases of Iranian arms shipments to Syria being stopped in Turkey. Is anyone able to find this report? It might be interesting but the UN website turned out to be a dud.
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Jul 1, 2012 22:22
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What I'm surprised about is that the reports seem to say the Tuaregs were completely driven out by those Ansar al-Din guys. I mean, wasn't fighting the Tuareg separatists why the military coup happened in the first place? It seems crazy that this group seems to have come out of the woodwork and pushed out the separatists that the Mali government couldn't even handle. And where are the Tuaregs now? Back in Libya? Reading their wiki article doesn't really help explain these details.
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Jul 1, 2012 22:24
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