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NikkolasKing posted:Although, aren't Asgardians in the MCU just really technologically advanced extradimensional aliens?They're not gods with literal magic or whatever? The MCU has done a bad job addressing this one way or the other IMO. Like, Midgard is one of the nine realms... but is 'Midgard' just the Asgardian name for Earth, or does Xandar also count? Is Asgard a planet or another dimension of existence? Could Doctor Strange travel there if he wanted to? Could Peter Quill?
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May 7, 2017 22:11
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Thor 2 seemed to basically just go with "the line between magic and interdimensional science is arbitrary" which I always felt was the "cleanist" way to answer these kind of questions. So I can buy that the Asgardians have a destined end with Ragnarok but its really just some kind of high level scientific and math algorithm that predicts likely events or something. As for the "nine realms" I kind of took it as there basically being a train line between 9 planets. So Thor can get from Asgard to Earth/Midgard to the Frost planet by his lawn wrecking/Heimdall thing. But if he wanted to go to Xandar or the Dark Dimension he'd have to get a transfer to some other kind of travel. I assume Strange could get anywhere he wanted with the right magic and direction. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 22:26 on May 7, 2017 |
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May 7, 2017 22:22
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Loki, Mjolnir, Freya, and Odin all do actual magic poo poo. It's just that 95% of the cool space viking "magic" in Asgard is actually technology. For instance the Bifrost isn't a magical portal to other realms, it's a technological method of traveling through dimensions/galaxies/vast distances of whatever separate the Asgardian 9 Realms. Meanwhile Loki is using the same methods as Dr. Strange to cast illusions.
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May 7, 2017 22:29
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But then I'd argue that Dr Strange presented magic as a skill and knowledge that Strange could dedicate himself and learn from books. So then that begs the questions of whether there's a difference between "magic" and some kind of high level science that is so beyond our understanding that it appears to be magic. So maybe Loki's just a super gifted Asgardian practitioner of their kind of "science" or maybe he and Strange are skilled in another kind of "science" that's as foreign to Asgard as it is to Earth, but really its kind of an argument of semantics. "Magic" or "Science so advanced it appears to be magic" are functionally the same and only matter to a character like Batman who is determined to not believe in "magic."
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May 7, 2017 22:34
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Yakmouth posted:The MCU has done a bad job addressing this one way or the other IMO. The nine realms are nine separate universes, much like the six singularities that predated are own are the remains of six universes. Earth, Guardians and most of the MCU takes place in Midgard. Thor refers to Earth as Midgard because it's the nexus point of our reality and the place where the rainbow bridge naturally draws towards. Asgard is a reality itself, which the Asgardians believe is at the roots of the tree meaning they have a devine calling to protect the nine realms. Some like the Dark Elves view this as elitist rhetoric and argue that there are 10 realms of which Asgard is one. MCU Asgardians believe that Ragnorok is the destruction of Asgard. A poisoning of the roots that will spread up the tree and eventually cause the nine realms to collapse into singularities. This has happened many times before and will happen again.
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May 7, 2017 22:37
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I like both the Thor movies quite a lot, but I think what lowers them in quality (for me, at least) is the vagueness of their world-building. I'm hoping that Ragnarok helps flesh things out.PriorMarcus posted:The nine realms are nine separate universes, much like the six singularities that predated are own are the remains of six universes. Earth, Guardians and most of the MCU takes place in Midgard. Thor refers to Earth as Midgard because it's the nexus point of our reality and the place where the rainbow bridge naturally draws towards. You're referring to the comics for this, yes? I've seen both films several times and don't think they do a very good job of confirming (or to be fair, denying) your claims. Yakmouth fucked around with this message at 22:43 on May 7, 2017 |
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May 7, 2017 22:40
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I think part of what I like about the Asgardians is that I always got the sense that they're probably unreliable narrators and their understanding of the universe seems to rest heavily on their own faith and mythology. In a lot of ways it plays like religious missionaries going to "unwashed masses" and smugly telling them how the universe works. It sounds good if you don't know any better but its entirely possible its got no more merit or "truth" in it than any other culture's ideas. So I like to think that Doctor Strange thinks Thor's kind of a religious fool when he talks about the Nine Realms and Ragnarok but also Strange is still learning so there's a lot he doesn't know either that the Ancient One looked down on him for.
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May 7, 2017 22:46
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could ragnarok be both? the clone's hammer isn't the actual hammer so hela could crush it like in the trailer but the clone is also the first step in the destruction cycle also
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May 7, 2017 22:46
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I feel like trying to shoehorn in a clone of Thor into a 2:15 movie is going to be way too much/ way too complicated. I feel like it being about a Doomsday event is much more fitting, especially considering Feige said Thor 3 was the keystone film of Phase 3.
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May 7, 2017 22:55
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STAC Goat posted:I think part of what I like about the Asgardians is that I always got the sense that they're probably unreliable narrators and their understanding of the universe seems to rest heavily on their own faith and mythology. In a lot of ways it plays like religious missionaries going to "unwashed masses" and smugly telling them how the universe works. It sounds good if you don't know any better but its entirely possible its got no more merit or "truth" in it than any other culture's ideas. That's kind of neat. I genuinely enjoy reading your take on this stuff.
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May 7, 2017 22:55
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Yakmouth posted:I like both the Thor movies quite a lot, but I think what lowers them in quality (for me, at least) is the vagueness of their world-building. I'm hoping that Ragnarok helps flesh things out. I liked Thor 1 as well. Haven't heard a lot of good things about Dark World, though. I went from Thor to Avengers which is part of why I couldn't stand it. Whedon made Loki a boring, cackling idiot who was trying to take over the world for no reasons I could see. Also he had Loki try to vaporize a Holocaust survivor after the guy basically called Loki Hitler. Whedon has all the subtlety of Thor's hammer.
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May 7, 2017 23:05
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Its just always the way I tried to make sense of this stuff in comics. So like if we assume that the "Nine Realms" are nine planets that Asgardians can travel from it makes sense that THEY think there's some greater connection between those nine and the universe revolves around Asgard. They've built their entire cultural view and understanding around what they know the same as we have. But that's theoretically no less egotistical and naive then our understanding of the universe. Maybe when Lady Sif encounters the Collector or the Kree they think "oh, there's one of those silly superstitious Asgardians." And maybe they're right? Without more understanding of things humans don't really have any idea if Asgardians, Kree, Dark Elves, Xandarians, or whoever have the right ideas or are just spreading more misinformation.After all, the Ancient One presented herself as all knowing and then Mordo had his faith in her shaken when he found out she was lying to him about the way of the universe. Dr. Strange is basically devoted to finding the answers to the universe so in theory he'd be the one to answer these questions, but he's still a neophyte. But its entirely possible that Peter Quill has more practical knowledge of stuff from just traveling around space his entire life, even though its clear he's naive about major stuff like the Infinity Stones. The easier answer is that no one has the answers and everyone's just piecing together poo poo with their own mix of biases and just wrong ideas. We as humans are just way behind the curve so everything looks magical and so impossible impressive to us.
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May 7, 2017 23:06
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NikkolasKing posted:Whedon made Loki a boring, cackling idiot who was trying to take over the world for no reasons I could see. He wanted to rule over the humans because Thor cared about them. It's pretty simple.
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May 7, 2017 23:07
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STAC Goat posted:We as humans are just way behind the curve so everything looks magical and so impossible impressive to us. I'd like to mention in humanity's defence that we worked out who Loki's dad was about 800 years before he figured it out 
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May 7, 2017 23:14
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NikkolasKing posted:I liked Thor 1 as well. Haven't heard a lot of good things about Dark World, though. Dark World is really good, if you skip over every part where the human characters are the only people in the scene. Seriously, just skip them, they add nothing of value and drag the movie down. If an Asgardian appears in the scene, its worth watching though
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May 7, 2017 23:26
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Yakmouth posted:I'd like to mention in humanity's defence that we worked out who Loki's dad was about 800 years before he figured it out Well its kind of a common theme of this kind of storytelling. That we're pretty clever and curious once we become aware of something. Its why all these space stories always go like "well, humans didn't know what they were doing but they're learning so quickly that the universe is taking notice and getting concerned." Or why all those alien stories end with a human saving the day. Like, lets look at the Infinity Stones. The Asgardians are knowledgeable enough to know what they are and that them popping up are a cause for concern. But they think its some kind of prophesied magic thing where we as omnipotent viewers know that its a combination of Thanos looking for them using people like Loki and Ronan as intermediaries while some of the stones are just being found at random on desolate planets or in libraries in Nepal by relative idiots like Peter Quill and Stephen Strange. And even though Earth and its inhabitants are largely ignorant to what the hell they are our 2 of the Stones are on Earth and this whole thing is bound to come down to us instead of one of the dozens of more advanced or knowledgeable races out there who are already actively engaging in the matter. And who knows, maybe Thor's right and this IS all destiny and not just dumb luck that the Stones all seem to fall in the hands of humans? Or maybe its just that humans are a race that doesn't look before it leaps? Who really knows? This is "meaning of life" question stuff humans have been wrestling with forever, and maybe it just turns out that there are alien races who are just as clueless and curious as we are.
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May 7, 2017 23:30
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:Dark World is really good, if you skip over every part where the human characters are the only people in the scene. Seriously, just skip them, they add nothing of value and drag the movie down. If an Asgardian appears in the scene, its worth watching though You have to add that Selvig is the exception to this though.
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May 7, 2017 23:32
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Phylodox posted:He wanted to rule over the humans because Thor cared about them. It's pretty simple.
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May 7, 2017 23:39
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Loki's motivations always seem like a messy mix of resentment for his brother, anger at his father lying to him about who he is, a personal identity crisis, and a sincere belief in authoritarian rule. I don't know if that's Whedon fault or if Loki's just a guy in personal crisis. Loki's thing has always seemed to be that he's neither the "thinks he's right" super villain nor the "enjoying being bad" super villain. He's a bit of both.
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May 7, 2017 23:42
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I like Kat Dennings, and also in the Thor movies. The comics did add a 10th realm recently, Heven. It was hidden by Odin and it's where he stashed his secret daughter Angela (aka the character Neil Gaiman created for Spawn comics that the court ruled belongs to him in his lawsuit with Todd McFarlane).
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May 8, 2017 00:16
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STAC Goat posted:Its just always the way I tried to make sense of this stuff in comics. So like if we assume that the "Nine Realms" are nine planets that Asgardians can travel from it makes sense that THEY think there's some greater connection between those nine and the universe revolves around Asgard. They've built their entire cultural view and understanding around what they know the same as we have. But that's theoretically no less egotistical and naive then our understanding of the universe. While I do think there's an aspect of the Asgardians just doing their best to piece poo poo together like everyone else, the theory that the 9 Realms are just 9 planets seems off. They know there are lots of other aliens out there and that Earth is just one of many planets in the galaxy. They meet with The Collector in Knowhere and Loki falling off Bifrost and then reappearing in the Avengers was surprising because of how he managed to get back to Midgard after drifting away from Asgard. It seems that the 9 Realms are at least 9 different galaxies, or some other form of region, in space. The way they're treated seems more in line with them being 9 different dimensions. Strange and other interdimensional travelers probably tend to think the Aesir are quaint with their 9 Dimensions theory, but there doesn't seem to be all that many dimension hopping groups. Maybe the 9 Realms are a limited region of either a multiverse or some other dimensional group that are linked together and easiest to travel to, at least for Asgard. STAC Goat posted:Well its kind of a common theme of this kind of storytelling. That we're pretty clever and curious once we become aware of something. Its why all these space stories always go like "well, humans didn't know what they were doing but they're learning so quickly that the universe is taking notice and getting concerned." Or why all those alien stories end with a human saving the day. While obviously human stories are going to be humancentric, I always found the unusually clever/curious/fast learning humans to be among the most masturbatory of the ways we (will)fit in with the rest of the universe. At least the scarily violent trend is a style where we're not the most awesome being in the universe.
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May 8, 2017 00:30
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Gyges posted:While I do think there's an aspect of the Asgardians just doing their best to piece poo poo together like everyone else, the theory that the 9 Realms are just 9 planets seems off. They know there are lots of other aliens out there and that Earth is just one of many planets in the galaxy. They meet with The Collector in Knowhere and Loki falling off Bifrost and then reappearing in the Avengers was surprising because of how he managed to get back to Midgard after drifting away from Asgard. It seems that the 9 Realms are at least 9 different galaxies, or some other form of region, in space. The way they're treated seems more in line with them being 9 different dimensions. Well, my theory would be that the Asgardians a long time ago developed the "Nine Realms" thing because that was the number of worlds they could visit by the Rainbow Bridge. And Asgardians, like humans, are self absorbed and assume the universe revolves around them and ends at their reach. Then they built spaceships and realized there were tons of planets and species but they just stuck with the "Nine Realms" thing as different because they were already invested and, like humans, don't like to admit they're wrong. Now, I fully admit that's just poo poo I made up. So you could be right. But the Nine Dimensions idea seems like its got its own problems to me. Like, the Celestial head that the Collector lives in presumably isn't one of the Nine Realms so how'd Sif get there? Presumably it has to be in Midgard since Peter Quill and Thanos appear to be in Midgard, but does that mean Sif too the Rainbow Bridge to Earth and then boarded a hidden Asgardian spaceship to fly to the Collector? Or did she just take a space ship from Asgard? So do Asgardian spaceships jump dimensions? Or can everyone just travel to "Knowhere" and then choose a new Dimension like some intergalactic transfer depot? And Lady Sif also knows about the Kree and Inhumans based on Agents of Shield. So where did Asgardians interact with Kree? More Earth/Midgard jumping around? And were the Celestials themselves Midgard specific? If so how'd the Aether get to another dimension? Or were the Celestials dimension jumpers? You might be totally right. Like I said, I'm making this poo poo up. And its not that I don't think there might be other dimensions because there's the Dark Dimension and the Ant Man stuff. So maybe the Asgardians are right and the Dark Dimension and the "Microverse" are 2 of the Nine Realms? Or maybe the Dark Dimension is but the Microverse is just part of Midgard? Or maybe the Nine Realms are legit but the Dark Dimension is a 10th that just isn't connected? And maybe Knowhere really is the interdimensional depot between Asgard and Midgard? But it seems as unclear and problematic as my idea which was kind of my point. I don't know who's right, I just like the idea that the Asgardians might be totally wrong and we shouldn't just assume they have everything figured out because they have more figured out than us. And further I like the idea the Asgardians are kind of smug assholes who kinda like the idea that humans see them as gods and play it up. Gyges posted:While obviously human stories are going to be humancentric, I always found the unusually clever/curious/fast learning humans to be among the most masturbatory of the ways we (will)fit in with the rest of the universe. At least the scarily violent trend is a style where we're not the most awesome being in the universe. Sure, but what are you gonna do? Stories written by humans for humans are always going to be designed to highlight the species that exists to buy the movie tickets. There's a limited audience of people who want to see the aliens and machines win. I mean, there's some. But its limited.
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May 8, 2017 01:05
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Codependent Poster posted:You have to add that Selvig is the exception to this though. Oh God no. Especially Selvig.
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May 8, 2017 01:04
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I'm sure this has been asked (possibly by me) but what was Lex going to do with Doomsday had Doomsday defeated WW, Batman, and Superman? Maybe there's a line of dialogue about this I missed?
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May 8, 2017 02:02
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Final WW trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSB4wGIdDwo
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May 8, 2017 02:23
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Yaws posted:I'm sure this has been asked (possibly by me) but what was Lex going to do with Doomsday had Doomsday defeated WW, Batman, and Superman? He was going to die.
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May 8, 2017 02:28
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:He was going to die. Is this ever specified or are you lying again?
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May 8, 2017 02:39
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Wait, he as in Lex? Because Silicon Valley assholes generally fancy themselves immortal. Or as in Doomsday?
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May 8, 2017 02:40
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Yaws posted:Is this ever specified or are you lying again? C) none of the above. You are looking for expository dialogue, and you will not find it. You have only the following clues: -Lex unleashed an unstoppable creature called Doomsday, whose sole purpose was to destroy the Earth. -Lex lives on Earth. -Lex can't live anywhere else.
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May 8, 2017 02:53
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teagone posted:Final WW trailer I'm maintaining my hype levels for this movie 
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May 8, 2017 02:55
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:C) none of the above. Lex went full kamikaze. Nice.
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May 8, 2017 03:08
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:C) none of the above. This still invokes the point I made, though, which is that Lex might have thought at one point "Okay, now off to my impenetrable vault that the giant monster surely has no idea how to infiltrate." Because there's a certain point at which money makes you feel invincible.
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May 8, 2017 03:07
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:C) none of the above. I do have to wonder if Lex ever comes to his senses after Earth gets wrecked, he's hoping that Darkseid will take him in and then he'll have to work and bunk with Desaad and Caliban.
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May 8, 2017 03:12
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Maxwell Lord posted:This still invokes the point I made, though, which is that Lex might have thought at one point "Okay, now off to my impenetrable vault that the giant monster surely has no idea how to infiltrate." Because there's a certain point at which money makes you feel invincible. yeah except he chills in front of Doomsday when Doomsday is spawned & immediately goes ham so clearly hes not practicing that much caution
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May 8, 2017 03:22
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:C) none of the above. reading further between the lines, I'm almost certain he had a silver bullet (of kryptonite) for his silver bullet (doomsday), although I don't think he was expecting it to be so violently uncontrollable. But he was pretty down in the deep end by the time he brought doomsday around, and cthonic insanity/despair plays a number on a person. By the end he just wanted to kill superman, and was pretty self-destructive about it. Wasn't expecting to die, but didn't really care enough to try and survive. The MSJ posted:I do have to wonder if Lex ever comes to his senses after Earth gets wrecked, he's hoping that Darkseid will take him in and then he'll have to work and bunk with Desaad and Caliban. Darkseid is just another brutal and unforgiving father figure to him. 
Drifter fucked around with this message at 03:30 on May 8, 2017 |
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May 8, 2017 03:26
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Hat Thoughts posted:yeah except he chills in front of Doomsday when Doomsday is spawned & immediately goes ham so clearly hes not practicing that much caution didn't we just say he's rich enough that he would think himself invincible? I'm sure there's a bit of Victor Frankenstein going on as well
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May 8, 2017 03:45
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Lex doesn't feel powerful for being the sole human in possession of worlds and worlds and worlds of knowledge, nope, he feels powerful because he is rich.
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May 8, 2017 03:50
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Said this before but Lex seemed clearly affronted by Superman's existence because he could not tolerate anyone or anything above him. To believe in a god would gently caress over his narcissistic worldview. Doomsday is stronger than him yes but it is still his creation. He "owns" Doomsday. If the world is destroyed and Superman killed, it's still a win because now Lex can just imagine himself as some Old Testament God of justice.
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May 8, 2017 03:55
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Ares hasn't shown up in any promotional material except the toylines, right?
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May 8, 2017 05:05
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VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:Ares hasn't shown up in any promotional material except the toylines, right? He was in the second trailer for a minute asking who she was, in human form. Edit- Oh he's in that final trailer too. He's the one who asks "Who is this girl?" GonSmithe fucked around with this message at 13:24 on May 8, 2017 |
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