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Weather will be normal for this map.
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Aug 20, 2014 12:55
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| # ? May 29, 2024 07:03 |
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After input from the thread and some careful thought, I've chosen Option EmilBacarruda posted:Option Emil: Emil is something of a compromise between Cesar and Dora. We leave about 10-25% of our force in the Western Village (probably a Panther, the 88s, the mortars, the 75s, and some HMGS). Their job is to secure the Western Village from a southern flanking attack and give the eastern troops fire support. The rest of our force is on the eastern bank. Herp’s snipers scout Russian movements. We initially deploy one company at O7 and another at O9. Once we know the direction and strength of the Soviet attack, the Panzergrenadiers move into ambush positions. We hit the Soviets hard and fast, then fall back to new positions and do it again. Final fallback positions in the Eastern Village. Here's a few relevant maps. Firstly, a rough map of key terrain:  The Soviets will want to take and hold these overwatch positions. Point IGOR, as Dirt Worshipper pointed out, will be a key overwatch position for Soviet forces. Similar story for the other marked points in the north. All of these dominate the East Town and the West Town. If the Soviets control them, we cannot safely move troops through town. So denying the Russians access to these points will be crucial. Any key terrain I missed? Next, here’s a map of likely Soviet attack routes. ANNA and GREGORY will probably be all/mostly armor. The other attacks will probably use a combination of the two.  Here is s set of defensive/ambush positions:  Each position opposes a given Soviet attack route(s). Now, we don’t have to hold these positions on Turn 1. However, company commanders (Kenzie and sniper4625) need to be prepared to quickly move troops to these locations (light blue) to react to the evolving Soviet attack. 1 Company will be responsible for ANNA and BORIS. 2 Company will tackle MASHA and GREGORY. Both companies will share responsibility for VASILIY. Armor in the West Village will use the indicated positions (dark blue). Dirt Worshipper’s 88s and a tank in the West Town will also cover ANNA and GREGORY. Note: these positions are just suggestions. If you can find alternate sites that also allow you to engage the Soviet attack routes, you are welcome to use those as well/instead. Here's a general deployment map:  1 Company in the area in/around P6. 2 Company around O9. I want our Panzergrenadiers able to quickly respond to Soviet movements and set up ambushes ahead of the Soviet assault. The four tanks are “pooled” in the East Town, ready to rapidly move into ambush positions. Kenzie, sniper4625, and gradenko_2000, it might be worthwhile to have ambush positions pre-planned and pre-fortified. That way you are familiar with the ground you’ll be defending and how to speedily get there. One tank, the two 88s, the 75mm infantry guns, the 81mm mortars, and Battalion HQ are all deployed on the western bank. They will provide covering fire against attack routes ANNA and GREGORY. Artillery/mortars will also be on-call to provide indirect fire support. HerpicleOmnicron5 and Affi will deploy their snipers forward of our main line. The marked areas (white circles) indicated suggest deployment areas, but the ultimate decision belongs to the Recon Platoon’s officers. Please make sure you have LOS over as much terrain as possible. Do your best to stay alive, you are the only scouts we have and your intel will be vital to the success of our plan. Now, to allocate our fortifications and sight-in our artillery.  Anti-personnel mines will be placed at the marked locations (orange) and anti-tank mines (at the yellow). They’ll be used to lock down critical chokepoints. I’ve placed the AT mines on the far side of bridges, fords, etc. That way, if an enemy tanks sets one off, the wrecked hulk will block the crossing. Thoughts on mine placement? TRPs will be placed at the marked positions (purple). These placements should allow us to engage most major Soviet routes of attack. It will also give us the option of laying smokescreens to blind the Soviets as we maneuver.  Fortification placement will be up the commanders. I’ve allocated foxholes as follows: Dralun (2), Dirt Worshipper (2), Kenzie (11), sniper4625 (10)
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Aug 20, 2014 16:17
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Maybe move one trp to porkchop island. How much ground does each mine cover? Is it one individual at mine or a cluster?
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Aug 20, 2014 16:26
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All forces are now in. The rarity values have had to be turned off for both sides. Next up, I try and make a useable unit map for you lot....
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Aug 20, 2014 16:29
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vuk83 posted:How much ground does each mine cover? Is it one individual at mine or a cluster? This question will need to be answered. We will be lucky if an enemy even stumbles on a single AP mine if its a single. AT mines can at least be put straight on a road. __________________ Otherwise I love Plan Emil. It's the most fun plan. By far. ______________ Sniper team questions! Can I call in enemy positions or do I need to be close to my HQ? Can I work alone and still spot enemies? Is it feasible to put one team in deep cover, have them hide, and wait maybe 5-10 minutes before creeping up to an overwatch position or should I have them at a good overwatch from minute one? Can I tell my teams to hold fire?
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Aug 20, 2014 16:47
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Bacarruda posted:Fortification placement will be up the commanders. I’ve allocated foxholes as follows: Dralun (2), Dirt Worshipper (2), Kenzie (11), sniper4625 (10) Didn't we also get MG nests?
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Aug 20, 2014 16:48
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Affi posted:Can I call in enemy positions or do I need to be close to my HQ? Can I work alone and still spot enemies? Yes you can. It's gamey, but you can spot enemies even if you aren't in immediate contact with your HQ. Affi posted:Is it feasible to put one team in deep cover, have them hide, and wait maybe 5-10 minutes before creeping up to an overwatch position or should I have them at a good overwatch from minute one? I want maximum coverage from Turn 1. Our entire defensive scheme is based on the assumption the snipers will be able to quickly spot the Soviets' main force(s) and guess their intentions. Affi posted:Can I tell my teams to hold fire? Yes. You can set a short small target arc. You're men won;t fire at anything that isn't inside that arc. You can also use the "hide" command, but I wouldn't recommend it since it greatly limits your visibility (and visibility is kinda your reason for existence). Affi posted:Didn't we also get MG nests? The original OOB had MG bunkers, but I axed them. They aren't actually all that useful.
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Aug 20, 2014 16:54
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The range on 8cm mortars is about 2km, should we be further to the east so we can provide shelling from the start? What about reloading? I think we only have 64 rounds total on-map.
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Aug 20, 2014 16:57
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Bacarruda posted:Yes you can. It's gamey, but you can spot enemies even if you aren't in immediate contact with your HQ. I am a bit nervous about the advance deploy. I think it's the right choice for an interesting battle, but we still have the reality of a very long interval over which we are planning blindly. The Soviets get to choose where to deploy and where to move, so how do we generate orders that allow us to be reactive to their planning, as they must be for us to be successful? We can't just assume that the Soviets will spawn in and sit still for five minutes... Should we ask for a shorter turn interval?
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Aug 20, 2014 17:01
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Affi posted:Can I tell my teams to hold fire? Set a (preferably 360 degree) target arc to like 70 meters or something. Unless feeling particularily threatened, the soldiers won't fire anything outside of the arc.
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Aug 20, 2014 17:01
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Velius posted:Should we ask for a shorter turn interval? I'd be fine with that. Say a 2-3 minute initial turn?
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Aug 20, 2014 17:03
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I think the northernmost TRP might be better off being moved a bit. This is a route to some of the best positions for the Soviets, so we have to find a way to slow them down. It'd be ridiculously dumb of them to send tanks right by the forest without knowing what's in there. This means they'll either skirt north of Point 1863, or send infantry to the woods first. But they can get vehicles fairly close to the point where they have to decide and still get a look to the east while covering attacks, somewhere around R2 or Q2. I think the TRP ought to be pushed back to there (allowing a strike on scouting infantry, or to slow down tanks), or slightly north of where it is to counter a move around Point 1863.
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Aug 20, 2014 17:04
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Velius posted:I am a bit nervous about the advance deploy. I think it's the right choice for an interesting battle, but we still have the reality of a very long interval over which we are planning blindly. The Soviets get to choose where to deploy and where to move, so how do we generate orders that allow us to be reactive to their planning, as they must be for us to be successful? We can't just assume that the Soviets will spawn in and sit still for five minutes... This is an extremely good point. Five minutes in, the fastest tanks will be blazing almost at our ambush positions already. Perhaps we should request Grey to make like 2-3-minute turns no matter if it gives away our intentions.
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Aug 20, 2014 17:05
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Another sniper team question: How well hidden am I if I don't fire? Can enemies spot me from 100m? 200? 400? How far into a forest do I need to be to be hidden and have visibility? Should I skirt the edges for visibility or find raised terrain further in to set up?
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Aug 20, 2014 17:10
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Bacarruda posted:I'd be fine with that. Say a 2-3 minute initial turn? What about general contingency fallback orders. If we ask for shorter turns, we are giving away our game plan. Example 1st platoon. Deploy here and here. Firing arc here. After contact withdraw to following positions. And Baccaruda, maybe begin to actually give some orders. Is your intent to defend the forest, or delay in the forest? If its a delay where do you want us to defend? What would our mainline of resistance be. The southern edge of the village(n7). (would be stupid because they can sneak infantry all the way close to us from 3 directions.) The middle of the village. (better) All up around the bridge? If you want us to delay in the forest, why not move the trps back to where they can influence the battle. Some in the southern part of town, some at igor, some at the forest south of igor. Regarding mines. If we only have small coverage area, i think a plan should be at mines at porkchop island, and ap mines set up as booby traps in the village. (infront of doors on the eastern side)
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Aug 20, 2014 17:13
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quote:
I would like to request sight lines and terrain features that are prominent/important for a sniper in the circles marked in white. I would also further like to ask for close up shots of U2 (are there and good sightlines there? and the area around N12 and T13 We should also really get a height map if that is possible. It's difficult to see hills.
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Aug 20, 2014 17:16
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Valiantman posted:This is an extremely good point. Five minutes in, the fastest tanks will be blazing almost at our ambush positions already. Perhaps we should request Grey to make like 2-3-minute turns no matter if it gives away our intentions. On the other side it cuts both ways. If we have good contingency orders, and they dont they will be stuck with their dick in their hands and all their tanks in smouldering wrecks. And we will cause a lot of goddamn confusion.
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Aug 20, 2014 17:17
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I'm in transit for much of the day, but I'll take look at the maps and start thinking. Some good discussion so far.
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Aug 20, 2014 17:20
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vuk83 posted:On the other side it cuts both ways. If we have good contingency orders, and they dont they will be stuck with their dick in their hands and all their tanks in smouldering wrecks. And we will cause a lot of goddamn confusion. That's the trick, though: you're depending first on Grey to tolerate a crazy flow chart of orders for every unit on the team, and on the ability of that flow chart to include relevant contingencies. I agree that it would be great if we could, for example, have a situation where a column of enemy armor advances in front of their spotters, and we can kill them en masse from range without them updating orders. But it seems far more likely to me that we let them dictate where they're going, and we end up with our units desperately out of position at the six minute mark.
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Aug 20, 2014 17:22
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vuk83 posted:And Baccaruda, maybe begin to actually give some orders. Full orders will be up by this evening. Grey Hunter, could you run this first turn as a three minute turn, please? As a favor, would you please not tell the Soviets we were the ones who wanted a shorter turn? Bacarruda fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Aug 20, 2014 |
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Aug 20, 2014 17:28
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http://combatmission.wikia.com/wiki/Speed Infantry Move type Speed --------- ----- Slow 25 Move 60 Assault 75 Hunt 90 Quick 200 Fast 240 Found some spergy data on unit move speeds. The only things that is gonna hit us in the first 5 minutes is tanks and tank riders. If we can positions or pixel truppen so we can inflict casualties on them we are gonna be golden.
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Aug 20, 2014 17:33
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Velius posted:That's the trick, though: you're depending first on Grey to tolerate a crazy flow chart of orders for every unit on the team, and on the ability of that flow chart to include relevant contingencies. I agree that it would be great if we could, for example, have a situation where a column of enemy armor advances in front of their spotters, and we can kill them en masse from range without them updating orders. But it seems far more likely to me that we let them dictate where they're going, and we end up with our units desperately out of position at the six minute mark. Grey has in other places said that he will not take If --> Then orders. If we could avoid having him alter the turn length to avoid revealing our strategy, that would be best. I'd also like to note that he said he had to remove the rarity limits. I don't think anything we brought is that rare (maybe the Tiger?), so it suggests that the Soviets are bringing an interesting mix. High-end tanks are generally rare, I don't think infantry units are, correct? I am worried about the ANNA infantry location. It looks exposed if they encounter a heavy force to the north. While GREGORY protects the southern flank of the village, if the Soviets crash north and blow by ANNA, they could cut off the entire detachment with no opportunity for withdrawal. I recommend moving the point to P4. How long does it take HMGs to pack up? I think when we deploy we should have heavier units behind better defenses closer to point VASILY, while the more mobile troops take point.
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Aug 20, 2014 17:41
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Is it feasible to hide a squad or two north and south of their spawn and wait 10-15 minutes and then advance on hopefully their mortars? If i recall correctly Germans left theirs there all game long last time. Either way i will have two sniper teams that can go check it out if and when their observations arent necessary.. More questions! How many sniper teams have i got? 2 or 4? Herp any orders for me?
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Aug 20, 2014 17:52
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If I'm conducting an ambush, what would be an ideal distance for my target arc? I was guessing when I set target arcs in the last mission. And since I've got the Tiger, should I make it a target armour arc?
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Aug 20, 2014 18:02
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Affi posted:Is it feasible to hide a squad or two north and south of their spawn and wait 10-15 minutes and then advance on hopefully their mortars? If i recall correctly Germans left theirs there all game long last time. We'll worry about more aggressive scouting later. For the time being, focus on getting into good positions to scout the initial Soviet advance. You have two sniper teams. Each had two men (a sniper with a scoped rifle and a spotter with an MP40 and binocs).
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Aug 20, 2014 18:43
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Rarity hits stuff that's less standard issue. We got dinged for the King Tiger and Tiger, and maybe the 88s. I don't think Panthers have a high rarity cost, except when you start doing things like getting Early era units late, and vis versa. I don't have access to the game right now, so I can't look over what Soviet armor has high rarity cost, but you can probably assume IS-2s, the scarier assault guns and tank destroyers. But keep in mind they probably have 7500-10000 points to roll with, and I'm not sure if rarity scales proportional. We can probably conjecture they're not just using a division of infantry, at least. They COUlD do something terrifying like bring a heavy tank regiment or two and have 10-20 IS-1s, however. Velius fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Aug 20, 2014 |
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Aug 20, 2014 19:03
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Velius posted:They COUlD do something terrifying like bring a heavy tank regiment or two and have 10-20 IS-1s, however.  I am suddenly feeling much less cheerful about my chances.
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Aug 20, 2014 19:09
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Affi posted:Herp any orders for me? Head down. No firing. Just hide.  Head down. No firing (Through the use of a very short target arc). No hiding via hide command, just stay in the closest shrubbery.  The forest there is a good staging ground for our sniper teams, and allow for the following: A: A place to hide. B: Positions on both the north and the central area of the map. C: A clear path to the town. Hopefully the new positions will help. HerpicleOmnicron5 fucked around with this message at 13:15 on Aug 24, 2014 |
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Aug 20, 2014 19:10
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:Head down. No firing. Just hide. I'd rather you didn't use "hide" orders just yet. In Combat Mission the "hide" command makes you go prone and dramatically reduces your ability to spot things. During the first phase of the battle, I need your guys up and spotting. If you want to avoid firing on enemy targets, just set a short target arc command. Bacarruda fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Aug 20, 2014 |
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Aug 20, 2014 19:12
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Bacarruda, I just want to say I appreciate how you give enough leeway to subordinate commanders. After watching you in the previous thread, I was afraid you'd micromanage everyone to the point you'd be playing the game on your own. You've proved me wrong. Sorry and thank you. You're giving orders that are specific enough while allowing your subordinates to set details and actually determine something so they can enjoy the LP. We should all follow your example, down to the bottommost rank.
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Aug 20, 2014 19:16
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I'll give my orders soonish. I'd like all my questions on cover answered first though. Standing up is all well and good but i'd hate to be spotted right away!
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Aug 20, 2014 19:25
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:Head down. No firing. Just hide. Hey herp. Do we decide where our units get placed? We have general areas of deployment. I dont know in which box mine will be. I'd suggest keeping my snipers up north and down south and yours in the middle?
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Aug 20, 2014 19:27
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Affi posted:I'll give my orders soonish. It's valid concern. Sniper teams in trees and bushes are very difficult to spot, especially if they aren't firing, so you should be ok.
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Aug 20, 2014 19:37
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What's our deadline? I'm pretty busy tomorrow and might not be able to really sit down and chew over this until 11:00 AM GMT, but I'll make time if I have to. EDIT: Also, reminder that we do have an orders spreadsheet.
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Aug 20, 2014 20:27
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gradenko_2000 posted:What's our deadline? I'm pretty busy tomorrow and might not be able to really sit down and chew over this until 11:00 AM GMT, but I'll make time if I have to. Thank you! Need to log in there and check it out.
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Aug 20, 2014 20:49
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I'm in agreement with everything so far and I'm enthusiastic about the plan, but would like to lay out some thoughts that I've had:
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Aug 20, 2014 20:51
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What support can the Soviets bring? SU-152s and assorted 152mm guns? D-1 artilleries? 203 mm howitzers? Do....do they have Katyushas 
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Aug 20, 2014 20:52
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So Emil then! Well here we go. Before we deploy, I wanted to post some more detailed shots of points Anna and Gregory. I think that Gregory in the south is an especially strong position for armor. I put tanks in the treeline there to test LOS and they can see all the way across the Berezina from there. If the Russians move their tanks around the south, they would have no choice but to move through that narrow gap and blunder right into a devastating ambush. Tanks positioned there can only be threatened if the enemy moves through the woods to their flank.   Imagine them rolling right around the corner there, exposing their juicy flanks:  The same thing can be repeated at Anna. The only problem is that tanks positioned in those woods cannot see past point 186.3. They could get by if they hug the edge of the map. For the test I stuck a Panther right at the edge of the 'Studienka Gap' trail.    I probably seem like I'm micromanaging everyone else's units, but no matter where we place our tanks, I recommend putting them in trees or some kind of cover when they're not actively moving. Trees can block incoming tank shells in ways you might not expect, and they are harder to spot. They may have even brought aircraft, who knows. Woods are good concealment against planes. So many of their players have no experience with CM, and they might want to see what planes are like (I probably would too if I were them). If we put tanks at points Anna and Gregory, they can only be threatened by infantry moving through the woods to their flank (unless they have such huge numbers of tanks that they overwhelm them from the front). We'd obviously want infantry picket lines around to protect those flanks. If we lose the woods the tanks can just be moved later on. The only other option for their tanks is to move west, straight into the woods and thickets that lead into the town. To repost an earlier image:  Remember that the blue lines here are areas of soft ground impassable for tanks, and their heavy tanks cannot cross the bridges. Their tanks (unless they are T-34s) would have to circle around the bridge, cross the creek, and then move into the town just meters away from thick woods. It seems unlikely they would risk it. If they do, we have plenty of panzerschrecks. They are almost guaranteed to move infantry up those woods on either side of the main road approaching the creek though. Those woods give them a covered approach right up to the bridge. Infantry moving across that creek will be moving very slowly, and will be highly vulnerable to ambushes. We could place infantry with target arcs over the creek. After an ambush we will withdraw into the woods, and the terrain over there is such a mess that their tanks won't be very useful. I think what's more likely is that they will attack into the woods with infantry to pin us down while they send tanks, possibly loaded down with riders, around the woods to the north or south (or both). If they do that they will blunder right into the teeth of our own armor at Anna and Gregory. It's possible that they blew so many points on heavy tanks that we might not even have much trouble dealing with their infantry in the woods. On the other hand, if it looks like they are attacking the woods with infantry in overwhelming numbers, we will need a shortened line with good positions to fall back to (foxholes). I'm gonna try recreating our force in the editor later on and try to find good spots for foxholes and whatnot. I hope we have plenty of time before the game starts because this is such a huge loving map. Ivan Shitskin fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Aug 20, 2014 |
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Aug 20, 2014 20:54
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Does anybody have a heightmap yet?
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Aug 20, 2014 20:59
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| # ? May 29, 2024 07:03 |
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I'd like answers to the ever present minefield question. Is one point of mines just 1 mine or is it a small minefield? I'm guessing the latter because otherwise it's kinda useless. (if minefields try to plonk them down in Vs that's always fun.)
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Aug 20, 2014 21:14
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