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DrSunshine posted:It's why I brought up the idea of having it based on connections to other countries instead. Science and technology thrives on one's connections to neighbors. Venice, Constantinople, Baghdad, Alexandria-- historically, all of these places were centers of great thriving in science due to being situated at centers of trade and connections to other peoples. Europe was a place where there were many small countries all jostling up against each other, connected to each other by their borders and the movements of people along roads and waterways. In that context, technology and innovation proliferated, because to lag behind would have meant certain death at the hands of one's neighbors, and you could not prevent ideas from spreading even if you tried. Conversely, nations that were historically isolated or land-locked, such as China and Japan, were easily able to isolate themselves and shut out the destabilizing flow of foreign ideas by closing their borders. Thus, they stagnated. If they implemented this it would result in a huge amount of historical inaccuracy which would require some kind of abstraction like tech groups to fix anyway. It's not that trade and connections don't have a big effect, but it's far too simplistic, there are many other factors involved.
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Mar 22, 2013 20:38
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gradenko_2000 posted:I've wanted to do a HOI3 LP, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to play a game through to completion. It'd just be for teaching the UI. That's good enough. You wouldn't have to. Just the UI and a couple of years and it would be a gold star thread. edit: I was so desperate for a HOI3 thread with all the expansions I offered someone who made one of the best Vicky 2 tutorials on the Paradox thread to buy him HOI3 if he promised to do an HOI 3 tutorial. Sorry Hitler, you were bad.
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Mar 22, 2013 20:54
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^HoI3's tutorial is the worst thing Adolf Hitler ever did.WhitemageofDOOM posted:"Sire the health care movement has risen up in protest, they stand united with their fellows and refuse to return to work until their demands are granted." And then it would be simulated by having your actual craftsmen pops walk out of the factories. You could replace them with scabs, either other working class pops who would be less efficient, or with craftsmen of a minority culture. Plus the striking workers could retaliate by trying to shut down the factories altogether.
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Mar 22, 2013 21:03
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yeah hitler tutorial was in pretty drat bad taste. 'und here is da undermench slave labor interface, with ze option of ze extzermination. 1 victory point awarded for every 'undred thousand liquidated. edit: And I love HOI3 with all the DLCs. Baloogan fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Mar 22, 2013 |
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Mar 22, 2013 21:17
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It was so bad that a Paradox dude came in this thread and apologized for it.
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Mar 22, 2013 21:22
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Wolfgang Pauli posted:That's why tech is so stupidly hard to implement in strategy games. There are so many vectors to account for that even *trying* for an accurate model ends up in a horrible design with a huge micro burden on the player. The only strategy game tech screen I've ever thought really captured what it's about was HoI2. You fund a specific team to a general project and they have to discover the various bits and bobs that need to be discovered on the way to the goal. Nevermind society's technology, you're just a government giving out contracts and grants to science and industry.
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Mar 22, 2013 21:40
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A Tartan Tory posted:So I am debating with myself whether my United Balkans Empire (started as Croatia and have everything from Wallachia to Morea to Constantinople) should advance up into Europe or go full crusader mode on the Ottomans in Asia Minor. I still have another 200 years of holy war, so I'm pretty sure I could hit India, but that just seems cliche.
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Mar 22, 2013 21:49
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For all those people who don't understand HoI3, this here is pretty much the best tutorial series I've seen for it...though it's more for the UI if I remember correctly and it's not updated to TFH. Still very helpful though.
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Mar 22, 2013 21:50
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Coolodile posted:And then it would be simulated by having your actual craftsmen pops walk out of the factories. You could replace them with scabs, either other working class pops who would be less efficient, or with craftsmen of a minority culture. Plus the striking workers could retaliate by trying to shut down the factories altogether. That's the idea, striking movements don't do anything. Dibujante posted:EUIV's tech groups should all progress at the same rate - tech group should just decide who you get neighbour bonuses from. Europe should still manage to dominate due to a) not being conquered by the Mongols, b) not being conquered by the Manchurians, and c) finding and proceeding to exploit the New World. They don't need the playing field tipped more than that. Have you looked at the new tech system?
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Mar 22, 2013 22:44
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Coolodile posted:^HoI3's tutorial is the worst thing Adolf Hitler ever did. That sounds like a ridiculous amount of micromanagement. Maybe interesting on paper, but definitely not fun in practice.
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Mar 22, 2013 22:59
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WhitemageofDOOM posted:Have you looked at the new tech system?
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Mar 22, 2013 23:06
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Fister Roboto posted:Never change, paradox quote:Johan is also a masculine given name of Malay language origin, meaning "Champion". They're not actually wrong. It's just a funny... coincidence? "Coincidence." e: all this chat about a version of EU where "trade = tech (= revoltrisk++)" has me really wanting to make it myself, but so far I haven't been able to come up with any version of the project that's not too far too large for one person. 
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Mar 22, 2013 23:38
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Dibujante posted:I have, and I liked that players had substantially more direction in where technology went, but Paradox still have tech groups whose sole purpose is to apply a penalty to tech speed based on which group a state is in. Yes, but neighbor bonuses don't exist and there is no tech bonus for exploiting the new world.
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Mar 22, 2013 23:42
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DrProsek posted:
From last page, but yeah, the economic policy thing is the hardest to fit an anarchist society into. Giving them Laissez-Faire or Interventionism wouldn't just be ridiculous, it would be beyond ridiculous; Victorian-era anarchists were pretty much the exact inverse of modern libertarians, they wanted to abolish capitalism and the market system completely. The closest in-game equivalents to an anarchist economic system would probably be either Planned Economy or State Capitalism - ironic, because centrally planned economies and state capitalist societies are traditionally despised by most anarchists, but they're also the only two economic systems in the game that aren't some form of market capitalism. If the anarchists are syndicalist-flavored, the ideal they'd be working towards would be a decentralized, noncompetitive economy with local communes who coordinate with each other and plan major economic projects through representatives sent to a centralized 'Labor Exchange', maintaining a large degree of local autonomy but still being part of a larger federation. For game purposes you could probably use State Capitalism or Planned Economy to simulate that acceptably well, but it just feels a bit silly. Can new party positions/economy types be modded in?
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Mar 22, 2013 23:54
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Maybe this is a really bad idea, but perhaps they could somewhat represent it by having Artisans be much more efficient under an anarchy, with a limited amount of guidance available for what they can produce?
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Mar 23, 2013 00:09
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I love it when i am playing Poland on CK II then all of a sudden there is black Orthodox Russians ruling some parts of Russia. What...? Is the AI really capable of asking for marriages in far off lands?
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Mar 23, 2013 01:07
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BillBear posted:I love it when i am playing Poland on CK II then all of a sudden there is black Orthodox Russians ruling some parts of Russia. A possible reason is that the Miaphysites in Africa got destroyed. Couriers there flee to the Orthodox lands... including Russian principalities. One of them has good stats, a heir or maybe someone in-line who got lucky marries one of them and boom, black Russians.
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Mar 23, 2013 01:38
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Shorter Than Some posted:If they implemented this it would result in a huge amount of historical inaccuracy which would require some kind of abstraction like tech groups to fix anyway. It's not that trade and connections don't have a big effect, but it's far too simplistic, there are many other factors involved. Hmm, yeah, there's a lot more going on than just that, but just in game terms, I think it's reasonable. Also, imagine this-- In 1400, Europe is just barely starting to poke its head out of the Middle Ages, and is still a technological backwater. The many interconnected states of Europe don't really progress much due to not having much to work with in the first place. However, the connection to the East via the Byzantines and Ottomans allows techs to trickle in. As these trickle in, they're shared and gained fairly quickly, which causes a feedback process, that leads Europe to rapidly diffuse ideas and catch up. Meanwhile, isolated countries to the far East have a much more tenuous connection to Europe, basically just by the Silk Road and through the Indian ocean trade routes. So while in 1400 they start out on par or higher than Europe, because of Europe's interconnectedness, they start to lag behind. The choice for them, if they want to keep up, is to seek more connections abroad through expansions and increasing contact with Europeans and other nations. However, the problem with adding more connections is that other influences also trickle in as well-- ideas that lead to calls for reform, democracy, secularism, and the like. Maybe this could be represented by having certain cultures tending to generate more of certain types of technological advances. You'd still get the sort of historical progression with Europe rapidly catching up and dominating the technological race. And, if you're playing non-Western powers, you'd have to do something like Westernization, but it's not directly tied, per se, to the Mechanic of Westernization. Instead, you'd have to open your borders to their influences, which makes it easier for them to prey on you, your population more restless, and decreases your government's ability to control the direction of society. You might end up getting technologies you didn't necessarily want to, but you have to take the good with the bad. DrSunshine fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Mar 23, 2013 |
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Mar 23, 2013 01:52
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When does a war automatically end in EU3? I remember hearing five years without any battles, but does that count rebels, failed sieges and whatnot? I'm occupying the entire HRE but accidentally made peace with one of the electors so I can't dismantle it and have to wait another five years. e: 25 years on, war doesn't end. Other nations will declare war on you more though -- even if you have no war exhaustion. That's probably why one-province Silesia started a religious war with me even as I occupied the entire of western and central Europe. Also, dismantling the HRE gives you an insane amount of Prestige. Too bad it's so.. unremarkable. You press a button, there isn't a jingle or even a pop-up, the Holy Roman Empire just ends. No momentousness to the occasion at all. Same for those times you form nations, inherit another country, annex an enemy. Damnit I want to feel like I'm rewriting history 
Vegetable fucked around with this message at 07:57 on Mar 23, 2013 |
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Mar 23, 2013 01:52
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DrSunshine posted:However, the problem with adding more connections is that other influences also trickle in as well-- ideas that lead to calls for reform, democracy, secularism, and the like. Maybe this could be represented by having certain cultures tending to generate more of certain types of technological advances. Was reform, democracy and secularism even a THING in Europe at any point before the very tail end of the EUIV period? I mean, I know for a fact that democracy and secularism were the farthest things from anyone's minds during the 1630's, and the main reforms that anyone cared about seemed to be "How to shoot the bad guys better" and "How to tax the peasants better." For that matter, I'm a bit curious - during the EU4 period, did ANY non-European society try particularly hard to Westernize their society? As far as my own limited knowledge goes, during this period the most anyone tried to do was to nick their weapons technology for their own use. Edit: As far as I knew, most of the opposition to Westernization came from local elites who were pissed off that these new reforms would undermine their power relative to the central government, not from local populations pulling an early Arab Spring in favor of democracy and reform. Am I wrong? Tomn fucked around with this message at 07:50 on Mar 23, 2013 |
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Mar 23, 2013 07:39
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Tomn posted:For that matter, I'm a bit curious - during the EU4 period, did ANY non-European society try particularly hard to Westernize their society? As far as my own limited knowledge goes, during this period the most anyone tried to do was to nick their weapons technology for their own use.
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Mar 23, 2013 07:51
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I couldn't wait for HoD, so I'm playing through a game as Mexico with APD and having a ball. It's 1912 and I'm a GP, fresh off a great war together with the USA against the CSA (where slavery is, somehow, still A Thing). A thought occurs to me though for a feature I really, really wish V2 had. One of my favorite playstyles in Victoria is to pick a "lesser" nation, or one that had it kinda hard in our timeline and making things nice for them. Stability, education, a good life for its citizens, etc. To this end I REALLY wish V2 had a good way to measure quality of life for my citizens, besides the Everyday Goods/Luxury Goods meters. It'd kinda go well with a few other basic metrics though, like measures of government corruption, press freedom, etc. Your basic CIA World Factbook stuff.
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Mar 23, 2013 12:15
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Spiderfist Island posted:It's the cleverly named "Bourgeois Dictatorship" government type. I think the POP Demand guys had a blurb when they take over about "temporarily suspending democracy to protect property rights. Temporarily." Anarcho-Liberals really should be swapped to Radicals. In the 19th century the term meant specifically radical liberals rather than any extreme ideology in general, and these guys were basically the hardliners of liberalism, complete with massive hate-on for the clergy and aristocracy, relentless pursuit of democratic reforms, uncompromising republicanism, and not really giving a gently caress about helping the poor outside of land reform. It would make sense if, when elected, instead of establishing a dictatorship like the other extremists, Radicals went straight to a republic if you're a conmon and instituted universal suffrage. Then they'd get voted out by the peasants in favor of clerical reactionaries because Ortega y Gasset hasn't written Revolt of the Masses yet and there's nobody else to warn them 
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Mar 23, 2013 14:09
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A Srb Divided Deluxe Beta Edition Mk. V.I For Victoria II: A House Divided Just a small update, because I'm travelling and some urgent bugs needed attention. Also counter-imperialism! Update Mk. V.I - Mar 23rd 2013 -Mostly bugfixing; -Added Aztec conquests to lead them to compete with Canada; -Civilized African nations may now take local colonies away from imperialist powers after the Berlin Conference. Take that white man!
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Mar 23, 2013 15:17
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DrSunshine posted:Not to mention the fact that Europeans got firearms from the Middle Easterners, who in turn got them from the Indians, who got them from the Chinese back in the 12th or 13th centuries. Sure, but it was Europe that really drove the development of handheld firearms beyond the earliest parts of the EU period. The tech groups are just abstractions of the the general results of technological advancement because we can't accurately simulate everything that happened in history that resulted in European domination and colonisation.
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Mar 23, 2013 16:30
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Have there been any release dates or.. release windows for the expansions for CK2 and V2?
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Mar 23, 2013 17:27
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Guildencrantz posted:Anarcho-Liberals really should be swapped to Radicals. In the 19th century the term meant specifically radical liberals rather than any extreme ideology in general, and these guys were basically the hardliners of liberalism, complete with massive hate-on for the clergy and aristocracy, relentless pursuit of democratic reforms, uncompromising republicanism, and not really giving a gently caress about helping the poor outside of land reform. Yeah, you're right about that. If any of you have read Madame Bovary, Mssr. Homais is a pretty good example of a radical liberal who isn't a philosopher (but fancies himself one). Would the Jacobin Club be considered a radical liberal group in Victoria II terms, or were they too dictatorial? The bourgeois dictatorship govtype seems a good fit for the Committee of Public Safety.
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Mar 23, 2013 17:28
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Necroneocon posted:Have there been any release dates or.. release windows for the expansions for CK2 and V2? V2 will be before ck2..
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Mar 23, 2013 17:44
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My impression of the Anarcho-Liberals is that they were an attempt to get the Bentham/Mill Philosophic Radicals in the game. Bentham/Mill and their followers weren't exactly Ron Paul RELOVEUTION types, but they were patrons of the New Poor Law, which created the innovative workhouse system that turned the impoverished into de facto slaves, so I'm not totally upset with the idea of them being total hardasses on that front. I'd have preferred it to be they support furthering political reforms and repealing social reforms, as opposed to their current stance of opposing further political reforms and wanting to repeal social reforms.
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Mar 23, 2013 17:51
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Patter Song posted:My impression of the Anarcho-Liberals is that they were an attempt to get the Bentham/Mill Philosophic Radicals in the game. Bentham/Mill and their followers weren't exactly Ron Paul RELOVEUTION types, but they were patrons of the New Poor Law, which created the innovative workhouse system that turned the impoverished into de facto slaves, so I'm not totally upset with the idea of them being total hardasses on that front. I'd have preferred it to be they support furthering political reforms and repealing social reforms, as opposed to their current stance of opposing further political reforms and wanting to repeal social reforms. *
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Mar 23, 2013 19:33
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Drone posted:I couldn't wait for HoD, so I'm playing through a game as Mexico with APD and having a ball. It's 1912 and I'm a GP, fresh off a great war together with the USA against the CSA (where slavery is, somehow, still A Thing). Darkrenown posted:Sure, but it was Europe that really drove the development of handheld firearms beyond the earliest parts of the EU period. The tech groups are just abstractions of the the general results of technological advancement because we can't accurately simulate everything that happened in history that resulted in European domination and colonisation.
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Mar 23, 2013 20:04
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Necroneocon posted:Have there been any release dates or.. release windows for the expansions for CK2 and V2? I thought there was some early mention that HoD would be out in March, but since we haven't heard anything more, at this point I'm assuming that's no longer the case. EDIT: I think it was that HoD was going to be Q1, which ends in March, and the 'March' was inferred.
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Mar 23, 2013 20:04
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I'm not sure if we have another HoD dev diary coming, everything that's been hinted at has had its diary AFAIK.
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Mar 23, 2013 20:07
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Doesn't it make sense though that radical Liberals would limit political influence of people who are poor, to preserve their own wealth? Even in the idealized version of the type of system they would set up, the working class would be left with practically no political power, through stuff like giving votes to corporations* and so on. When you further consider that revolutions rarely remain pure, the codification of corporate rule seems pretty likely to me, to "protect our rights against the tyranny of the majority, and the people against themselves". Which in effect translates into limited political rights, even if de jure there's full franchise and what not. John Stuart Mill was the most radical supporter of extending suffrage in Victorian Britain (advocating for female suffrage in the 1860s) and On Liberty is all about doing away with restrictions on free expression and so forth. A Philosophic Radical of that time would see no contradiction between that and the Benthamite Utilitarian ethics code of encouraging productivity through forcing people to face starvation if they don't work 16 hour work days in plants where machines mangle body parts etc. EDIT: I'm thinking of people like Richard Cobden, in particular. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Cobden Patter Song fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Mar 23, 2013 |
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Mar 23, 2013 20:17
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Patter Song posted:John Stuart Mill was the most radical supporter of extending suffrage in Victorian Britain (advocating for female suffrage in the 1860s) and On Liberty is all about doing away with restrictions on free expression and so forth. A Philosophic Radical of that time would see no contradiction between that and the Benthamite Utilitarian ethics code of encouraging productivity through forcing people to face starvation if they don't work 16 hour work days in plants where machines mangle body parts etc.
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Mar 23, 2013 20:36
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I wanna know what percentage of people who love Paradox games go on to study history/become historians. I mean I won't say it was a deciding factor for me or anything, but I played Vicky/Ricky for a couple years before I started a bachelor's degree in history.
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Mar 23, 2013 20:38
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Getting a degree from that experience I'd imagine is rare but I've definitely read more history on the periods represented in paradox games. Like someone said earlier in the thread or the last one; it'd be great for kids in school to have a paradox-lite if only to get a better context for historical significance.
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Mar 23, 2013 20:45
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I only had a passing interest in a history degree, but practically everything I learned about European history had a foundation in some Paradox game or another. Even if it was wrong, it gave me the impetus to find out the actual history. I've been playing Paradox games for probably a decade now. I started sometime post-Vicky and pre-HoI2.
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Mar 23, 2013 20:47
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Yes, but ideology is one thing, reality's another; just look at what happened in the USSR. Also, as I said, even in the idealized situation, the working class could be de facto silenced even if they de jure had a voice. Just giving people the illusion of influence goes along way to placate them, even if the upper class is running roughshod over the working class. (See present day liberal democracies.) That's sort of the point, though. The Radicals were explicitly not aristocrats, and dismantling the relics of "feudalism" that benefited old landowners is one of the key parts of their agenda (see the campaign against the Corn Laws). Voting Reforms etc. at this point are not really targeted at benefiting the poor, they're being used as weapons to destroy the political power of the landed aristocracy. Note how the Conservatives fight back by trying to undermine the Liberals by appealing to the newly-ensuffraged at every step: the Factory Act that bans child labor is pushed by Richard Oastler, a Tory of the highest distinction, in an attempt to undermine the clout of those tacky new-money capitalists, or how the Tories of Disraeli's time campaigned on the idea that the Liberal idea of Free Trade=Freedom was a road to popular impoverishment and how anti-imperial Liberal activists were "Little Englanders" who weren't in touch with the glorious spirit of empire. Both sides, the wealthy capitalists and the blue-blooded aristocrats, had vested interests in pandering to the mob to fight each other. EDIT: To the above question, I recently finished my History MA.
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Mar 23, 2013 20:55
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Drone posted:I wanna know what percentage of people who love Paradox games go on to study history/become historians. I mean I won't say it was a deciding factor for me or anything, but I played Vicky/Ricky for a couple years before I started a bachelor's degree in history. Crusader Kings 1 and Europa Universalis 2 were pretty much the only reasons I took history as a minor.
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