|
I see this on many dogs of various breeds. Some say it makes the dog look more beautiful or easier to clean up after. However I am interested to see what the people around here think of the practice of tail bobbing and eat cutting. Personally I am against doing it to any animal at all unless medically necessary. Like it might have cancer there. I like my dogs to be complete and not missing limbs. Spay and neutering is one thing (birth control since dogs and cats won't ever use a condom. How would that even work?) but cutting off their tail or mutilating their eats is another thing all together. What are your thoughts?
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2007 19:47 |
|
|
|
| # ? May 19, 2013 07:34 |
|
|
Some working breeds need to have their tail bobbed to avoid almost certain future injury. Ear cropping is not medically necessary, but i can appreciate the aesthetic. I wouldn't turn down a pup from a breeder because its ears were cropped, but i wouldn't seek it out, either.
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2007 19:52 |
|
|
Also for show dogs they often are cropped. Some dogs breed standards recognize cropped or natural ears for show dogs, but some do not. There is also the argument that people claim many judges are less likely to pick an un-cropped dog. Working dogs have been covered in the last post so I won't rehash that.
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2007 19:59 |
|
|
Tail docking is very necessary for certain breeds. Most breeds that usually get docked have tails that are thick and muscular, and when a dog with a tail like that gets wagging, there's nothing stopping them. They will literally bang their tail against things until it breaks and is bleeding and spraying blood everywhere (I've seen this happen once - not pretty). It is not evil and can prevent a dog from having future problems or tail related injuries. As long as it is done by a good vetrinarian and at the right age (young puppy - they heal FAST), it is not a horrible mutilating procedure that most ignorant people seem to think. (not talking about anyone in particular - just people who are ignorant about it) Ear cropping is a very minor cosmetic sugery. No it's not medically necessary, but it's not an evil mutilation either. Like tail docking, if done at the right age by a good vet it is fine. Puppies heal and recover remarkably fast even from much more invasive surgeries like spays. Also keep in mind many breeds have cropping/docking in their standard, so in order to be shown they need the surgeries done. On the other hand, people who try to do at-home docking and cropping should be shot. And for the record, I like uncropped ears much better than cropped ones. I enjoy the soft-eared floppy look, as opposed to the serious/tough one. Be prepared for a poo poo train... this topic usually ends up a 10-page argument. (here's hoping it won't this time!)
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2007 20:06 |
|
|
This topic comes up occasionally around here, and sometimes turns into a poo poo storm. I'll go ahead and add my 2 cents. I dislike tail cropping on the basis that it impedes dog-to-dog communication. Secondly, its often done badly and on dog where it isn't necessary. Some breeds have really crappy, weak tails since docking has long been a part of the breed standard, so I can see why it would be continued. Similar to my feelings about ear cropping, its largely unnecessary, and as long as its "in vogue" then idiots will continue to butcher their dogs' tails by trying to do it themselves. Ear cropping is illegal in alot of places, and I wish it was here as well. Maybe its because I've spent far more time in dog shelters than in the show ring, but I've seen so many terrible crop jobs compared to the number of ones where the dog actually looks good. Done correctly, I'm sure that ear cropping isn't that big of a deal (especially compared to spaying), but I'd be interested to know what % of owners attempt to do it themselves and without giving the dog any sort of meds afterwards. I'd sure as hell want some Rimidyl or something if I was getting my ears cut on. Ear-cropping shouldn't be a DIY kind of procedure, yet people wanting their dogs to look tougher basically butcher up their ears using scissors.  gently caress ear cropping. Natural ears look just fine to me.
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2007 20:16 |
|
|
MoCookies posted:
I disagree; my dog is perfectly capable of wagging his nubbin, and just as capable of tucking it down if he's afraid or unsure. Also, 
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2007 20:41 |
|
|
Is ear cropping what makes floppy ears stand up straight? I don't really understand how it's done. I've seen one dog that was possibly in the process? and his ears were bandaged upright with what looked like some sort of popcicle stick apparatus attatched. What does the actual surgery part do?
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2007 21:10 |
|
|
Breastloons posted:Is ear cropping what makes floppy ears stand up straight? I don't really understand how it's done. I've seen one dog that was possibly in the process? and his ears were bandaged upright with what looked like some sort of popcicle stick apparatus attatched. What does the actual surgery part do? You most likely witnessed a dog with it's ears taped. There's no surgery involved and the dog's ear remains entirely intact. The ears are splinted to help them stand up straight. It's little more than a minor annoyance to the dog, in most cases.
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2007 22:03 |
|
|
I feel that docking and cropping are fine on the appropriate breeds.
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2007 22:09 |
|
|
Tail docking is done at literally a few days' of age for puppies, and it is a very minor procedure with very few fuckups if done by a halfway decent vet. Ear cropping should be done by an experienced vet, especially if you plan on showing, since many vets are not trained to do proper show crops and will give Boxers, Great Danes, Schnauzers, all the same shape ear and will not be able to recreate some of the nuances of a really nicely done show crop. Cropping of ears on show and working animals is perfectly acceptable, as a good owner who splints and wraps the ears (either to a styrofoam cup or a splint) and keeps the ears clean and healthy means that a pup will experienc minimum discomfort and will have nice results. If someone simply wants a pet, there really is no reason to crop, especially if they do not know or cannot be bothered to learn proper after cropping ear care. The pups very quickly forget the stupid cups on their heads and play as boisterously as pups of that breed with uncropped ears. I really consider it a personal choice, and if you are responsible and can take care of the ears and make sure that the ears end up standing upright correctly, then you should not be villainized. For the record, many breeds like Cockers, Boxers, and Rotties have very ugly, funky tails if uncropped, since for many many years, if not millenia, the tails were largely ignored when doing breedings, so thin, floppy, ugly, and easily breakable/traumatized tails are often found in such breeds when the tails are not docked.
Frau DVangel fucked around with this message at Apr 24, 2007 around 22:47 |
| # ? Apr 24, 2007 22:12 |
|
|
It's necessary for a lot of working breeds. The original idea behind it is to protect the dog. most breeds with cropped ears are working dogs, who are likely to get their ears caught in brush, or have them bitten while chasing game. Unlike with tail docking, which is a bit more important to some breeds due to how poor and injury prone the tails can be, i think ear cropping is something that is needless for pet dogs. If you don't plan on having the dog do anything that would endanger it's ears, like run through brush, or if you don't plan on showing, it's a useless cosmetic procedure. But I certainly don't think it's evil. It's a choice by owner. So long as they go to a competent vet, i don't see how it could be horrible at all. The dogs don't even notice, it's done when they're that young. Bad crop jobs on the other hand...well, I think it should be abuse to take your dog in to be butchered because you want it to look tough.
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2007 23:35 |
|
|
Willie, our former stray Boxer/Pit, had his tail docked by what must have been a yokel. It's about 6 inches long. We call it his butt flap, as he carries it down most of the time and it looks like he's being modest.
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2007 00:15 |
|
|
Tail docking on appropriate breeds has been covered. I think cropping is bullshit, but I feel the same about the whole dog show mentality in the first place.
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2007 00:19 |
|
|
I feel that docking and cropping are unecessary on dogs, but when done professionally, they are not cruel or torture. Stupid (in my opinion) but not wrong.
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2007 00:41 |
|
|
My thinking is, if you want a dogs ears to be erect, breed for that trait. If you want a dogs tail to not be a spindly rat tail, breed for that trait. Yeah, its been argued it's in the dogs best interest (ear infections, tail injuries) but I suspect its an excuse as often as its necessary. I've seen plenty of rat terriers with full tails and mine has a docked tail (he came that way) and while Boomer's nubby butt is cute, I often wish he had the whole thing like the other doggies at the dog park.
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2007 02:01 |
|
|
I think theyve banned tail docking in the UK (i could be wrong). I agree with Xankrys pretty much, great for working dogs but not so necessary for otherwise.
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2007 02:26 |
|
|
IRQ posted:Tail docking on appropriate breeds has been covered. Thanks for somehow dragging your petty dislike of dog shows into another thread...If you don't like purebred dogs, fine, go to a shelter and get a dog--I would never degrade that choice, and you are saving a life. However, do not be so quick to knock a sport that has been around for more than 150 years and that is centered on picking the best breeding animals to preserve and improve the various breeds of dog. If not for dog shows and breed standards, there would be no Labs, no German Shepherds, no Pits, no Beagles, etc etc. Even if the average pet owner will never enter a dog show, it still behooves them to realize that their purebred dog is a result of centuries of selective breeding with a purpose and that well bred purebred dogs excel at their particular niches much more so than other dogs. Anyway, cropping and docking was and is still used (though obviously not as frequently) on hunting and working dogs, and show dogs used to literally be taken in off the field to show and had much tattier coats 30-50 years ago. It is only more recently that dogs have been bathed before being shown, and more glamour was emphasized. However, a well moving, muscled, healthy and sound dog with lots of breed type will still win more today than a flabby, unsound dog that happens to be prettier and has more coat. However, most judges prefer the dog to be docked and cropped to its breed standard, and dogs with natural ears do have a harder time attaining their championships--because tradition is not easy to get rid of, and since most breeders do great jobs at post surgical care and maintenance and thus the dogs are not exposed to more than minimal health risk. Frau DVangel fucked around with this message at Apr 25, 2007 around 03:27 |
| # ? Apr 25, 2007 03:24 |
|
|
DragonSama posted:What are your thoughts? Do you consider that a mutilation or "loss of limb" or just a hygenic procedure that might prevent a disease? Cropping and docking can prevent injury, as it's historical use, in dogs, particularly those that work. SachielDVangel fucked around with this message at Apr 25, 2007 around 03:37 |
| # ? Apr 25, 2007 03:28 |
|
|
Frau DVangel posted:Thanks for somehow dragging your petty dislike of dog shows into another thread... You're the one starting poo poo about it, not me. I said I don't see the sense in chopping up a dog's ears to fit arbitrary standards. I didn't post a massive rant about dog shows or something, and I'm not going to get into a debate about it. Calm the gently caress down.
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2007 03:40 |
|
|
I've got a pit-mix that had an pretty intense case of "happy tail." He had a long whip-like tail that gave people bruises and sprayed blood all over the walls. After trying to keep his tail wrapped while keeping a cone on his head for a while, it became clear that it was a futile cause. So my girlfriend and I decided the chop was the only thing for him. We went to the vet and she asked us where we wanted it cut, and so my girlfriend grabbed his tail, and indicated "about there." "About there" was about the average length of other tails I'd seen docked, but something was misunderstood and they ended up only taking about half his tail, making it look like some kind of cosmetic surgery. We were worried it wouldn't solve the problem of blood all over the place, but it ended up working out OK, and he healed surprisingly fast. However, this could also be due to the fact that he has learned to not hit it against his kennel and turns longways whenever he gets excited while kenneled. So I guess I can see how it would be necessary, and in retrospect he seems happier, as he gets to get through his extreme moments of wiggle-butt without any pain.
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2007 03:43 |
|
|
IRQ posted:You're the one starting poo poo about it, not me. I said I don't see the sense in chopping up a dog's ears to fit arbitrary standards. I didn't post a massive rant about dog shows or something, and I'm not going to get into a debate about it. Calm the gently caress down. Ok if by not starting poo poo you mean calling "dog show mentality" "bullshit." I'm perfectly calm thank you. Gotta go back to studying...
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2007 03:46 |
|
|
sarcasmful posted:I've got a pit-mix that had an pretty intense case of "happy tail." He had a long whip-like tail that gave people bruises and sprayed blood all over the walls. That happened to a pointer that came into the rescue I volunteered for. Her tail was extremely long and thin and she would wag it around very hard. Her kennel area became all bloody and the vet found that her tail was broken in a few places. It had to be amputated. So, I can see why such breeds are docked. Other traditionally docked breeds don't tails like that, though. The neighbour's Rottweiler has a whole tail and it looks fine to me; like a lab tail. Ear cropping I don't like and would never do it. It's purely cosmetic in most circumstances. I won't call it abusive or evil, though. Provided it's done by a good vet, it shouldn't hurt the dog, as has been pointed out. There are worse things out there people do to dogs to get upset about. Cacatua fucked around with this message at Apr 25, 2007 around 04:14 |
| # ? Apr 25, 2007 04:03 |
|
|
It's all about what you prefer. I seriously don't think either is painful enough or extreme enough to be called abusive, although any moron pet owner that will try to do it themself...now that is abuse. Personally for me it depends on the breed. I love Domberman and think they look best with docking and cropping. On Boxers though I prefer floppy ears. Does that make me evil because I like the way it looks? To me it's in the same lines as a parent getting their child's ears pierced before they can make the choice themselves. Also some people have mentioned reasons that docking is needed for some dogs. Doesn't ear cropping help prevent ear infections? I thought floppy eared(*edit: I meant floppy eared dogs. Although floppy dogs do sound cute!  ) dogs were at higher risk for getting ear infections because their ears keep in moisture and don't circulate air as well. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I heard that somewhere.
Greycious fucked around with this message at Apr 25, 2007 around 05:21 |
| # ? Apr 25, 2007 05:15 |
|
|
pioneermax posted:I think theyve banned tail docking in the UK (i could be wrong). Not for working dogs. I'm not sure if my father has ever docked a tail himself (he is a vet) but he said a few years ago that he has no problem with it for working cocker spaniels (they are often sent down fox holes and tails could be a problem). I don't know if he's changed his mind since. I found this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4807372.stm But can't find any evidence the bill was passed. Interesting that 90% of vets are against it. Tail docking has been made illegal as done by a lay person. Only a qualified vet can dock. http://www.vets4docking.org.uk/statement.htm <-- vets for docking! What is nice news is that the Kennel Club has banned the showing of dogs with cropped ears or docked tails in the UK. http://cfhs.ca/athome/ear_cropping_and_tail_docking/
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2007 10:19 |
|
|
Xankrys posted:Bad crop jobs on the other hand...well, I think it should be abuse to take your dog in to be butchered because you want it to look tough. So butchering the dog is okay if it's asthetically pleasing to you? I don't understand what difference it makes how the dog looks afterward, as long as the same care was taken during the procedure. Janson posted:What is nice news is that the Kennel Club has banned the showing of dogs with cropped ears or docked tails in the UK. They should do this everywhere. Why do show dogs need their tails docked or ears cropped?
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2007 13:35 |
|
|
yap posted:So butchering the dog is okay if it's asthetically pleasing to you? I don't understand what difference it makes how the dog looks afterward, as long as the same care was taken during the procedure. Because of the fact that some show dogs do in fact work/hunt and docked tails and cropped ears allow for a better working/hunting dog. Because of hundreds of years of tradition. Because show owners/breeders know how to do post op care and know which vets do a good job and because the discomfort involved is minimal--go to a show and watch Dobe or Dane puppies play--they are not in pain and are as goofy and retarded as any puppies. Because at the end of the day, it should be up to the owners, and not up to a government. If such laws passed, then mandatory spay/neuter laws and bsl laws would not seem so invasive. Really, a nanny state telling me that I cannot have a skilled vet do a safe, very minor procedure on my dog is not my idea of somewhere where I would like to live.
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2007 13:51 |
|
|
Frau DVangel posted:Really, a nanny state telling me that I cannot have a skilled vet do a safe, very minor procedure on my dog is not my idea of somewhere where I would like to live. Unnecessary surgery on defenseless animals doesn't really come across as a "right" to me, sorry. Do you think people have the right to practice tattooing on their pets too? When I think of a nanny state I think of seatbelt and smoking laws. I'm pretty sure Nannies generally don't watch over animals. Animal cruelty laws are a good thing.
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2007 14:02 |
|
|
yap posted:Unnecessary surgery on defenseless animals doesn't really come across as a "right" to me, sorry. Do you think people have the right to practice tattooing on their pets too? When I think of a nanny state I think of seatbelt and smoking laws. I'm pretty sure Nannies generally don't watch over animals. Animal cruelty laws are a good thing. My ferrets all have tattoo marks in their ears, denoting that they're altered and descented. My frenchie has an identification number tattooed on his belly. No, I don't think people should be tattooing tribal designs on their dogs, but as soon as you outlaw it, you lose the ability to do important things. I don't like the look of cropped ears or the process, but as long as it's done by a skilled vet, I have to deal with it. Docking has more utility, but I hate it more because of having witnessed the screams of the puppies. They forget soon, but it's still heartwrenching.
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2007 14:05 |
|
|
yap posted:Unnecessary surgery on defenseless animals doesn't really come across as a "right" to me, sorry. Do you think people have the right to practice tattooing on their pets too? When I think of a nanny state I think of seatbelt and smoking laws. I'm pretty sure Nannies generally don't watch over animals. Animal cruelty laws are a good thing. Aren't you also a frequent PeTA defender? Thought so.... Animal cruelty laws preventing some yahoo from setting his Yorkie on fire while in a burlap bag are quite different from laws banning safe and minor procedures. What next, a law requiring that only vets should clip nails because, gasp, you might cut the quick?
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2007 14:09 |
|
|
rear end in a top hat casserole posted:My ferrets all have tattoo marks in their ears, denoting that they're altered and descented. My frenchie has an identification number tattooed on his belly. No that has nothing to do with reality. The only time docking or cropping is banned, it is still legal when it's actually used. I'm only talking about cruelty for asthetic reasons.
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2007 14:28 |
|
|
yap posted:No that has nothing to do with reality. The only time docking or cropping is banned, it is still legal when it's actually used. I'm only talking about cruelty for asthetic reasons. Read my thread prior to yours....
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2007 14:32 |
|
|
Frau DVangel posted:Aren't you also a frequent PeTA defender? Thought so.... No I'm not a PETA defender. I wouldn't give them a penny. I think I said I didn't think that the story about letting dogs out at a dog show sounded like something they'd do, and it turned out I was right? Last I heard trimming nails isn't an unecessary cosmetic procedure. You're just being silly.
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2007 14:35 |
|
|
yap posted:No I'm not a PETA defender. I wouldn't give them a penny. It's pretty funny that someone who just looooves bulldogs, a grotesquely malformed breed that cannot reproduce without human intervention and which is notorious for health issues, is so against cropping and docking. Your dogs are walking timebombs of disease and ill health, yet you're complaining about docked tails and cropped ears on otherwise healthy and well cared-for dogs?
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2007 14:38 |
|
|
Goonmeet Ruiner posted:It's pretty funny that someone who just looooves bulldogs, a grotesquely malformed breed that cannot reproduce without human intervention and which is notorious for health issues, is so against cropping and docking. Your dogs are walking timebombs of disease and ill health, yet you're complaining about docked tails and cropped ears on otherwise healthy and well cared-for dogs? My dog is healthy, thanks.
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2007 14:40 |
|
|
Janson posted:What is nice news is that the Kennel Club has banned the showing of dogs with cropped ears or docked tails in the UK. Not exactly: KC Rules posted:Competing with docked or cropped dogs in the UK So, they're phasing it out like they did with ear cropping. Personally, I think the whole thing is bullshit. It's no more cruel than spaying or neutering, which like it or not, is also done for the convience of the owner. This is just what happens when you actually bow to the AR movement instead of treating them as the fringe group of wackos they really are.
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2007 14:48 |
|
|
yap posted:My dog is healthy, thanks. I wonder how long that will last. You're against unnecessary surgery, yet your breed cannot reproduce without surgery. Wouldn't you call that, I dunno, unnatural and unnecessary? Shouldn't that clue you in to the fact that something is horribly awry with the breed if it cannot even manage to push out puppies? But hey, tail docking is EVIL and people who do it are the DEVIL! I'd rather have a dog with a docked tail than a dog so deformed that it only exists because of human intervention. The point is, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2007 14:50 |
|
|
I think its worth noting that the greatest amount of pain and distress from docking and cropping is not caused by responsible, caring owners who have it done by a competent vet (whether for the purposes of the show ring, the field, or just the living room). The "abuse", IMO, is happening when ignorant owners (and occasionally clueless vets) do these procedures in inhumane ways, i.e.: taking loving kitchen scissors to a dog's ears or rubber banding an older puppy to dock the tail. The negative affect of these procedures done correctly is negligible compared to the suffering of the dogs who are unlucky enough to go through the "homemade" versions of these procedures. If what we're really concerned about is stopping suffering, I'd point to that as a starting place (since I doubt the US will ever ban the practice).
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2007 14:52 |
|
|
Goonmeet Ruiner posted:I wonder how long that will last. You're against unnecessary surgery, yet your breed cannot reproduce without surgery. Wouldn't you call that, I dunno, unnatural and unnecessary? Shouldn't that clue you in to the fact that something is horribly awry with the breed if it cannot even manage to push out puppies? But hey, tail docking is EVIL and people who do it are the DEVIL! I'd rather have a dog with a docked tail than a dog so deformed that it only exists because of human intervention. Who threw stones? I'm against cosmetic surgery on animals. I never said anyone who does it is the devil or evil. Every single breed on the planet exists because of human intervention. Get over it. edit: And I'd say getting the unborn pups out of the bitch is pretty necessary. Call me silly. yap fucked around with this message at Apr 25, 2007 around 14:55 |
| # ? Apr 25, 2007 14:53 |
|
|
yap posted:Who threw stones? I'm against cosmetic surgery on animals. I never said anyone who does it is the devil or evil. I'll call you loving dense, not silly. Every breed exists due to human intervention but few of them require human assistance to gently caress and deliver puppies. C-sections are necessary for bulldogs because of the shape of their bodies, due to the way they have been bred. If they hadn't been bred into their current mutant status, the c-sections wouldn't be necessary to deliver the unborn pups. QED. Anyway I'm out.
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2007 15:03 |
|
|
|
| # ? May 19, 2013 07:34 |
|
|
sarcasmful posted:I've got a pit-mix that had an pretty intense case of "happy tail." He had a long whip-like tail that gave people bruises and sprayed blood all over the walls. After trying to keep his tail wrapped while keeping a cone on his head for a while, it became clear that it was a futile cause. So my girlfriend and I decided the chop was the only thing for him. We went to the vet and she asked us where we wanted it cut, and so my girlfriend grabbed his tail, and indicated "about there." "About there" was about the average length of other tails I'd seen docked, but something was misunderstood and they ended up only taking about half his tail, making it look like some kind of cosmetic surgery. We were worried it wouldn't solve the problem of blood all over the place, but it ended up working out OK, and he healed surprisingly fast. However, this could also be due to the fact that he has learned to not hit it against his kennel and turns longways whenever he gets excited while kenneled. Typically as mentioned previously in this thread, tails should be docked within the puppy's first week of life. Any later and it can become a bit of a more major surgery, it's an amputation after all. I can see why it would be justified in your case, but it is simply more of a risk (nerve/spinal cord damage-wise) to dock the tail more cranially as I understand it, so they're going to try to do it as far caudal as possible to still prevent the problem.
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2007 15:03 |
|
