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Konstantin
Jun 20, 2005


As PI hates pet stores and BYBs, we have to look at what they offer. Like it or not, they are the 'competition' to shelters and responsible breeders, and people go to them. What makes a pet store appealing? Here are some reasons why people get their dogs from these places. Many of them are outright false or deceptive, but that's the way they work, and we have to accept that the public can be misled by them. This is a 'devils advocate' post, but instead of just refuting them, let's try to find ways to combat these misconceptions in the public eye.

Why should I buy from MillCo, a pet store/BYB?

• MillCo puppies are health tested, vet checked, and AKC registered, as opposed to a shelter, where you don't know what you are getting. We also put our money where our mouth is by guaranteeing the health of all MillCo puppies. Try getting that from a shelter or some breeders.
• No waiting lists. You may have to wait weeks or even months for that breed that you want. MillCo will let you take it home the same day.
• Many shelters and breeders put in restrictive "spay/nueter" clauses, banning you from breeding your pets, should you ever want to. If you ever think that you might want to get into dog breeding, buy MillCo.
• No long applications, home visits, or interrogations. Many breeders are elitist, requiring long waiting periods and huge background checks before you can take one of their puppies home. Shelters turn away many owners as being "not good enough" while killing thousands of dogs every year. At MillCo, we believe every puppy deserves a loving home.
• Some breeders even include restrictive clauses that don't even give you full ownership of the dog! At MillCo, we avoid unsavory tactics such as this. Any dog you buy at MillCo is 100% yours.
• Many shelter puppies grow too big. MillCo small breed puppies are specially bred to be just the right size to live in an apartment and meet all weight requirements. Also, shelters are full of vicious pit bull mixes that are banned in many cities. They look cute as puppies, but a full grown adult isn't something for a novice dog owner to handle.
• MillCo has hypo-allergenic designer breeds. No shelter and most breeders will be able to show that their dog does not cause an allergic reaction. Also, non-shedding breeds are available.
• Many extremist organizations such as PeTA demonize MillCo. These accusations are false. All our puppies have the best care, and we exceed all USDA standards.

Like it or not, this is what our competition says. All the campaigning in the world won't fix the pet store problem unless we change these attitudes and fight this misinformation. Some of it is lies, some of it is 'selective truth'. How can we educate people to make these pitches ineffective?

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jhh
Nov 2, 2006

Clever Saying Goes here

Konstantin posted:

� MillCo puppies are health tested, vet checked, and AKC registered, as opposed to a shelter, where you don't know what you are getting. We also put our money where our mouth is by guaranteeing the health of all MillCo puppies. Try getting that from a shelter or some breeders.
� No waiting lists. You may have to wait weeks or even months for that breed that you want. MillCo will let you take it home the same day.
� Many shelters and breeders put in restrictive "spay/nueter" clauses, banning you from breeding your pets, should you ever want to. If you ever think that you might want to get into dog breeding, buy MillCo.
� No long applications, home visits, or interrogations. Many breeders are elitist, requiring long waiting periods and huge background checks before you can take one of their puppies home. Shelters turn away many owners as being "not good enough" while killing thousands of dogs every year. At MillCo, we believe every puppy deserves a loving home.
� Some breeders even include restrictive clauses that don't even give you full ownership of the dog! At MillCo, we avoid unsavory tactics such as this. Any dog you buy at MillCo is 100% yours.
� Many shelter puppies grow too big. MillCo small breed puppies are specially bred to be just the right size to live in an apartment and meet all weight requirements. Also, shelters are full of vicious pit bull mixes that are banned in many cities. They look cute as puppies, but a full grown adult isn't something for a novice dog owner to handle.
� MillCo has hypo-allergenic designer breeds. No shelter and most breeders will be able to show that their dog does not cause an allergic reaction. Also, non-shedding breeds are available.
� Many extremist organizations such as PeTA demonize MillCo. These accusations are false. All our puppies have the best care, and we exceed all USDA standards.

I'll have a go at debunking some of them.

* Pet warranty: Sure, MillCo guarantees your pet to be healthy for <x amount of time> from <y type of diseases>. What about congenital defects, etc? What happens when your pet dies on <x + 1 day>? This is like those ripoff warranties that used car salespeople try and stick you with.

* You can take home a puppy from MillCo today. This is the equivalent of picking up a hot chick when you're really really drunk - it could be a transvestite. Like the tranny, you never know what you're getting. Also like the tranny, you have no idea if your new purebred puppy is going to grow up to be a huge slobbering leg humping monster that might just wait until you're asleep and then... uhh, never mind. Petfinder has a search by breed function.

* Spay neuter clauses: MillCo simply does not give a poo poo about your ability to raise puppies. Why should MillCo spend their money getting your potential dog fixed anyway? Do it your drat self, they're "frugal".

* Breeder interrogation: MillCo, once again, does not give a poo poo about you or your dog. Give them teh money now please; after that you can go home and filet and eat the puppy for all they care. Besides, hiring minimum wage employees to interview you adds up after a while. Now where's that money?

* Restrictive breeder clauses: uhh I'm not touching this one really. Personally, I think that a dog is a pet, not a piece of intellectual property. The breeder could kiss my rear end on this one if he wanted to do something like that. I'll go use Petfinder and search by breed instead.

* Shelter puppies: MillCo guarantees to deliver you a cute fluffy puppy that the mill they purchased it from says will be exactly what you want. "What you want", in this case, is probably a poorly bred mutt that vaguely resembles the breed it's supposed to represent. MillCo also takes special care to only buy from the cheapest mills who throw in extra added abuse and squalid kennel conditions for free.

* Hypoallergenic breeds: The pound has these, too. Go play with the puppy from the pound: if your eyes are red five minutes later, go look at another one. Optionally, your doctor makes a wide variety of antihistamines and other allergy medication.

* Peta et al: Yeah, best of care? Prove it. The MillCo people have no idea what conditions their puppies were raised in, as they purchase from whichever third party has the best prices.

huplescat
Jun 8, 2005


Konstantin posted:

• MillCo puppies are health tested, vet checked, and AKC registered, as opposed to a shelter, where you don't know what you are getting. We also put our money where our mouth is by guaranteeing the health of all MillCo puppies. Try getting that from a shelter or some breeders.
As jhh said, the guarantees offered by pet shops are as shady as those from a used car salesman. I've seen pet shops with signs up saying 14 DAY GUARANTEE!!! as if that's a good thing. If the dog's going to last 12+ years a 14 day warranty is pretty pathetic, especially since defects from crap breeding will likely take a lot longer than 14 days to surface.

quote:

• No waiting lists. You may have to wait weeks or even months for that breed that you want. MillCo will let you take it home the same day.
I don't know if those who buy from pet shops would agree with this, but when you're going to be responsible for a living creature for the next 12-20 years then a few weeks/months shouldn't matter. Especially if the wait means you'll be getting a well bred dog.

quote:

• Many shelters and breeders put in restrictive "spay/nueter" clauses, banning you from breeding your pets, should you ever want to. If you ever think that you might want to get into dog breeding, buy MillCo.
The dogs on sale at pet shops are 99% of the time are either a cross breed or a poor example of their breed. Once again, it's hard to convince everyone of this, but no-one should be breeding unless they're doing it to improve a breed. Also, if there's no breeding happening, it's in the best interest of the dog to be fixed.

quote:

• No long applications, home visits, or interrogations. Many breeders are elitist, requiring long waiting periods and huge background checks before you can take one of their puppies home. Shelters turn away many owners as being "not good enough" while killing thousands of dogs every year. At MillCo, we believe every puppy deserves a loving home.
This one's really tricky as shelters, rescues and breeders will vary widely in this regard. I guess if a potential dog owner is continuously turned down then they need to evaluate their living arrangements to see if they really can provide an adequate home for a dog.

quote:

• Some breeders even include restrictive clauses that don't even give you full ownership of the dog! At MillCo, we avoid unsavory tactics such as this. Any dog you buy at MillCo is 100% yours.
Not all dogs are sold under this kind of arrangement. It depends on if the breeder is wanting to use it as part of their breeding program or if they're going to be involved in showing the dog. If it's sold as a pet (as far as I know) this doesn't happen.

quote:

• Many shelter puppies grow too big. MillCo small breed puppies are specially bred to be just the right size to live in an apartment and meet all weight requirements. Also, shelters are full of vicious pit bull mixes that are banned in many cities. They look cute as puppies, but a full grown adult isn't something for a novice dog owner to handle.
Pet shops frequently sell dogs that are not anywhere near the breed standard of size, temperament, etc. If they're cross breeds then there is no guarantee how they'll turn out. They're often just as unpredictable as a shelter dog, it's just you get the honour of paying more and supporting a morally corrupt industry.

quote:

• MillCo has hypo-allergenic designer breeds. No shelter and most breeders will be able to show that their dog does not cause an allergic reaction. Also, non-shedding breeds are available.
Designer dogs are mutts and it is impossible to tell if they'll turn out with the coat that was expected. There are also plenty of pure bred dogs that are hypoallergenic and if you purchase from a responsible breeder you'll know for sure you're getting what you want.

quote:

• Many extremist organizations such as PeTA demonize MillCo. These accusations are false. All our puppies have the best care, and we exceed all USDA standards.
Just because they "exceed all USDA standards" does not mean they are operating with the dog's best interests at heart. I imagine that these standards describe the mimimum conditions that dogs must be kept under (basic shelter, food & water). That by no means they've received the best housing, nutrition, socialisation and vet care possible. It just means they're "satisfactory" from an animal welfare point of view.

If I was dropping several hundred dollars on a dog, I'd sure as hell want to make sure their upbringing was absolutely incredible. Satisfactory just doesn't cut it.

PirateFilly
Feb 21, 2007

by Lowtax


Now I don't know THIS particular store but I know a little bit about others.

Konstantin posted:

• MillCo puppies are health tested, vet checked, and AKC registered, as opposed to a shelter, where you don't know what you are getting. We also put our money where our mouth is by guaranteeing the health of all MillCo puppies. Try getting that from a shelter or some breeders.
Generally the animals are not shown to the public or not accessible by the public until an actual veterinarian has looked at them. Granted this isn't the most comprehensive of exams but its a once over. I'm not sure exactly how this veterinarian is compensated but I have seen them say "no this animal cannot be sold" and a hold tag would be placed on their kennel until they were treated or whatever the solution was.
The health guarantee I knew was 15 days "anything but internal / external parasites" and 1 year congenital or hereditary diseases. Will EVERYTHING show up within 15 days? I did not go to vet school so I can't answer that. After that period you start entering the window of animals picking up diseases from other sources.
They would have done themselves a favor by leaving off that last sentence. A good breeder will give you a health guarantee. A shelter...well you're not shelling out 500+ for their animals so exactly what are they going to do if the dog gets sick? Pay for it? Bad argument.

quote:

• No waiting lists. You may have to wait weeks or even months for that breed that you want. MillCo will let you take it home the same day.
This is a good argument. Pet stores offer convenience. If you're looking for a shih-tzu right now....you CAN drive to the local pet store and purchase one and have one at home within an hour or two. The morality of doing such a thing isn't the question...the fact that you CAN do it is true.
I'm currently on a search for a particular breed of cat that I've been working on for a few weeks right now. A less determined person may have already headed to a pet store.

quote:

• Many shelters and breeders put in restrictive "spay/nueter" clauses, banning you from breeding your pets, should you ever want to. If you ever think that you might want to get into dog breeding, buy MillCo.
This argument is pretty bad. I don't think they should be encouraging breeding which they seem to be doing. I don't like spay / neuter clauses but I don't trust people to keep their animals out of other un-fixed animal owner yards....so its kind of a "I don't like it but I don't see a better option yet" thing. They should drop this part of their ad.

quote:

• No long applications, home visits, or interrogations. Many breeders are elitist, requiring long waiting periods and huge background checks before you can take one of their puppies home. Shelters turn away many owners as being "not good enough" while killing thousands of dogs every year. At MillCo, we believe every puppy deserves a loving home.
This goes back to the convenience issue. Additionally, whether or not a family is suited for a dog isn't measurable by how high their fence is. I don't really know about the shelter statement. I haven't ever encountered that issue.

quote:

• Some breeders even include restrictive clauses that don't even give you full ownership of the dog! At MillCo, we avoid unsavory tactics such as this. Any dog you buy at MillCo is 100% yours.
My mother owned a cat like that once. Purchased from a breeder but had to consent to breeding it when the breeder chose and had to give the breeder pick of every litter. I don't think we ever thought of it as a bad thing. Its an interesting point. Perhaps it applies to some people.

quote:

• Many shelter puppies grow too big. MillCo small breed puppies are specially bred to be just the right size to live in an apartment and meet all weight requirements. Also, shelters are full of vicious pit bull mixes that are banned in many cities. They look cute as puppies, but a full grown adult isn't something for a novice dog owner to handle.
While the point is exaggerated, many shelters are in fact filled with a great majority of animals that aren't suited for apartment living. Pit bull mixes ARE the predominant breed in all of the shelters I have been in (those and gshep. mixes) and all issues aside, many places do not accept those dogs. If you want a small dog, you're going to be looking long and hard. There was one shelter in Las Vegas that had like a 5 day window for people to put their name down for an animal. At the time I was looking for a small dog and put my name on list after list. You'd arrive on the day when the animal would become available and 15 people would be standing around on that same list. The first person on the list and present would get the animal. Small dogs were a hot commodity and nearly impossible to come by.

quote:

• MillCo has hypo-allergenic designer breeds. No shelter and most breeders will be able to show that their dog does not cause an allergic reaction. Also, non-shedding breeds are available.
This is just a strange way of saying we have poodles and poodle mixes. Neither of which are very common in shelters either. There are a few breeds outside of this that I think can be okay for people with allergies. They did twist the words to make it sound like nobody else has those dogs which isn't true. People just have to know what they are looking for (which many times, they don't)

quote:

• Many extremist organizations such as PeTA demonize MillCo. These accusations are false. All our puppies have the best care, and we exceed all USDA standards.
Nothing to say here. There are rules...and they probably follow them. If anything, PETA would say that the rules aren't sufficient. They may or may not be.

Bottom line? Well...some of these pitches definitely do seem to cross a line. I'd prefer if everyone worded everything as truthfully as possible but it is a business and they are in the business to make money. They don't lie anywhere...they just use some shady ways of describing things.

asshole casserole
Mar 6, 2006

Clinically in shame.


PirateFilly posted:

Bottom line? Well...some of these pitches definitely do seem to cross a line. I'd prefer if everyone worded everything as truthfully as possible but it is a business and they are in the business to make money. They don't lie anywhere...they just use some shady ways of describing things.

Why must you be a pet store apologist?

Yes, pet stores are businesses. However, they choose to do business with live creatures. The same rules cannot apply here that apply to barbecues and furniture.

PirateFilly
Feb 21, 2007

by Lowtax


I don't think that they are the devil reincarnated.

There ARE reasons that pet stores exist and continue to be profitable. That reason is NOT because the general public wants to support puppy mills.

SachielDVangel
Jun 4, 2003


PirateFilly posted:

I don't think that they are the devil reincarnated.
They support a terrible industry of puppy mills and backyard breeders... that's "not good."

PirateFilly
Feb 21, 2007

by Lowtax


There isn't a better option for everyone.

GobbleDeGook
Sep 13, 2005

Liberator of Butterball Dong

PirateFilly posted:

I don't think that they are the devil reincarnated.

There ARE reasons that pet stores exist and continue to be profitable. That reason is NOT because the general public wants to support puppy mills.

Have you ever spent any decent amount of time at a high kill shelter? Please go volunteer for a week. Make sure you are in the vet area or the kennel. After doing this come back here and tell me if you can honestly support the breeding of animals outside of a strict standard.

SachielDVangel
Jun 4, 2003


PirateFilly posted:

There isn't a better option for everyone.
Yes there is, if people would educate themselves. It's stupid to remove the blame from the consumer and rationalize that petstores are fine and dandy, but I guess that's what you're good at considering your own self-denial about screwing up.

asshole casserole
Mar 6, 2006

Clinically in shame.


PirateFilly posted:

I don't think that they are the devil reincarnated.

There ARE reasons that pet stores exist and continue to be profitable. That reason is NOT because the general public wants to support puppy mills.

They're because people are lazy, and because there are pet store apologists like you who confuse people into thinking that pet stores aren't the devil incarnate.

workape
Jul 23, 2002



PirateFilly posted:

Now I don't know THIS particular store but I know a little bit about others.

You do realize they are talking hypothetically and trying to counter act the FUD that is used by Pet Stores and Millers, right?

PirateFilly posted:

Generally the animals are not shown to the public or not accessible by the public until an actual veterinarian has looked at them. Granted this isn't the most comprehensive of exams but its a once over. I'm not sure exactly how this veterinarian is compensated but I have seen them say "no this animal cannot be sold" and a hold tag would be placed on their kennel until they were treated or whatever the solution was.

The "once over" tends to be a superficial examiniation that looks for open sores, bruising and bleeding. If the animal doesn't have any of the above, out on the shelf it goes. Compare this to shelters which do full examinations to ensure the health of the animal as they have a large volume of animals in close proximity and communicable diseases love places like that. You know, the same situation that you would find in a petstore.

PirateFilly posted:

The health guarantee I knew was 15 days "anything but internal / external parasites" and 1 year congenital or hereditary diseases. Will EVERYTHING show up within 15 days? I did not go to vet school so I can't answer that. After that period you start entering the window of animals picking up diseases from other sources.

1 year for congenital and hereditary is nothing, especially with adult onset of many diseases which show up around 2 years. Hip/Elbow displaysia really doesn't show up until the animals are older as well, well past your 1 year guarantee. You know what would be great, is if they sold dogs that were bred in a fashion as to be bred to eliminate such diseases and defects. But I wonder where one would find such an animal, if only there was a group of people dedicated to a breed, with the health and future of that breed in mind. It would be totally awesome if they would form a club and provided contact information for those who would be interested in their breed as well. Man, wouldn't that be really awesome?

PirateFilly posted:

They would have done themselves a favor by leaving off that last sentence. A good breeder will give you a health guarantee. A shelter...well you're not shelling out 500+ for their animals so exactly what are they going to do if the dog gets sick? Pay for it? Bad argument.

Shelters don't give guarantees as they are usually volunteer organizations with all their funding coming from the public. They do give vouchers that you can use with local vets to get discounts on spay/neuters.

PirateFilly posted:

This is a good argument. Pet stores offer convenience. If you're looking for a shih-tzu right now....you CAN drive to the local pet store and purchase one and have one at home within an hour or two. The morality of doing such a thing isn't the question...the fact that you CAN do it is true.
I'm currently on a search for a particular breed of cat that I've been working on for a few weeks right now. A less determined person may have already headed to a pet store.

The ability to spur of the moment purchase an animal is the reason that the shelters are so full of animals. Little to no research done is what leads to people dropping off animals saying things ranging from "OH MY GOD! I didn't realize an English Mastiff would get so big!" to "My Parsons Russell Terrier is an rear end in a top hat with aggression issues.". That research you are doing right now is what everyone should be doing, hell I can almost guarantee that I put more thought into the washer/dryer combo that I just bought than the public does in getting an animal.

PirateFilly posted:

This argument is pretty bad. I don't think they should be encouraging breeding which they seem to be doing. I don't like spay / neuter clauses but I don't trust people to keep their animals out of other un-fixed animal owner yards....so its kind of a "I don't like it but I don't see a better option yet" thing. They should drop this part of their ad.

What about spay/neuter clauses don't you like? The fact that someone is telling you what to do with your "property"? Those clauses are there to guarantee the future health of the animals as well as a population control measure.

PirateFilly posted:

This goes back to the convenience issue. Additionally, whether or not a family is suited for a dog isn't measurable by how high their fence is. I don't really know about the shelter statement. I haven't ever encountered that issue.

Actually the fence issue is a huge thing since alot of breeds if determined can jump over a chain link fence with no issue. Alot of larger breed rescues require a 6ft privacy fence minimum. Shelters require such things as well but from the stand point that the animal will have an outside area that they can call their own to play and pee and poop in. It also is a safety issue so the animal doesn't run away and they don't end up having to readd the animal back into the kennels.

PirateFilly posted:

My mother owned a cat like that once. Purchased from a breeder but had to consent to breeding it when the breeder chose and had to give the breeder pick of every litter. I don't think we ever thought of it as a bad thing. Its an interesting point. Perhaps it applies to some people.

Such contracts are common with SHOW animals, not pet animals. In fact, breeding pet animals in that fashion is what leads to over population.

PirateFilly posted:

While the point is exaggerated, many shelters are in fact filled with a great majority of animals that aren't suited for apartment living. Pit bull mixes ARE the predominant breed in all of the shelters I have been in (those and gshep. mixes) and all issues aside, many places do not accept those dogs. If you want a small dog, you're going to be looking long and hard. There was one shelter in Las Vegas that had like a 5 day window for people to put their name down for an animal. At the time I was looking for a small dog and put my name on list after list. You'd arrive on the day when the animal would become available and 15 people would be standing around on that same list. The first person on the list and present would get the animal. Small dogs were a hot commodity and nearly impossible to come by.

I am betting that most of those dogs labeled as pit mixes were done out of ignorance. The lack of availability of a certain size dog in a shelter is a good thing, it means that people are either taking better care of their animals or that they are doing their homework and not bringing in lovely ankle biters that they have no control over.

PirateFilly posted:

This is just a strange way of saying we have poodles and poodle mixes. Neither of which are very common in shelters either. There are a few breeds outside of this that I think can be okay for people with allergies. They did twist the words to make it sound like nobody else has those dogs which isn't true. People just have to know what they are looking for (which many times, they don't)

Poodle mixes are very common in shelters, hell we have a specific rescue for them in St Louis due to shelter over population. Don't think that your microcosm can be applied globally.

PirateFilly posted:

Nothing to say here. There are rules...and they probably follow them. If anything, PETA would say that the rules aren't sufficient. They may or may not be.

Probably follow USDA rules? Have you seen USDA guidelines? This is the same USDA that signs off on the conditions in chicken farms and veal plants. Letting the USDA be in charge of companion animal breeding and care is like letting Michael Jackson run a daycare.

PirateFilly posted:

Bottom line? Well...some of these pitches definitely do seem to cross a line. I'd prefer if everyone worded everything as truthfully as possible but it is a business and they are in the business to make money. They don't lie anywhere...they just use some shady ways of describing things.

Lies of omission and half-truths are the same as lying. The public by and large is a stupid teeming mass that only wants what they wants right then and there. Patience, is no longer a virtue.

workape fucked around with this message at May 15, 2007 around 17:46

Potassium
Oct 5, 2003

the best lack all conviction, while the worst
are full of passionate intensity


Konstantin posted:

• MillCo has hypo-allergenic designer breeds. No shelter and most breeders will be able to show that their dog does not cause an allergic reaction. Also, non-shedding breeds are available.

Or, people could go to a shelter, because most (rather, all the ones I've encountered) will give you seven days to see how the dog or cat does in your home, and if it's not a good fit, someone is allergic, or you just don't think that was a good decision, you can bring it back and they'll rip up your check (which they hold until you decide you want to keep the animal).

Or, even better, they could do twenty minutes of research, go meet a breeder and spend time with the dogs, and see what kind of, if any, allergic reaction comes up. Some breeders even give you three days with the dog to see how things work out.

Konstantin posted:

• MillCo puppies are health tested, vet checked, and AKC registered, as opposed to a shelter, where you don't know what you are getting. We also put our money where our mouth is by guaranteeing the health of all MillCo puppies. Try getting that from a shelter or some breeders.

My shelter gave me a month's free pet insurance with a 500 dollar deductible, just in case any shelter illnesses showed up. And they checked her out for FeLV, upper respiratory diseases, gave a voucher for a vet visit and a list of vets that honour it, and told me every little thing about her personality, both the good and the bad. I knew exactly what I was getting. And when I get my Corgi later this summer, I know exactly what I'm getting with him, and I know that if I ever, ever, ever have any questions or problems, I can call the breeder because they're there to help me and the dog. They're not some rear end in a top hat behind a counter, they're a person who cares about the future of the breed and the people who adopt (and it really is like an adoption) their puppies.

Shelters and breeders don't try like you do to trick people into a purchase. They want to make sure the people getting the animal know exactly what they're getting into, because those people will be taking care of that animal for the next 10-15 years.

Just because you can go down to a store and buy something doesn't mean it's better or it's a good idea. Why shouldn't people put in even just the minimal amount of research? Why do we have to cater to the instant gratification complex of the population? Just because someone's not getting the dog they want RIGHT loving NOW doesn't make it a bad thing. Taking proper care of a dog is a huge loving responsibility, and it should under no means be made as an impulse purchase. You do that poo poo with inatimate objects like TVs or stereos, not living, breathing creatures.

light_urple
Sep 26, 2002

Meow!



GobbleDeGook posted:

Have you ever spent any decent amount of time at a high kill shelter? Please go volunteer for a week. Make sure you are in the vet area or the kennel. After doing this come back here and tell me if you can honestly support the breeding of animals outside of a strict standard.

I can't think of a better way to turn all your ideas about animal ownership in this country upside-down. It's easy to talk positively about buying dogs in pet stores or breeding them for fun or profit without ever actually working at a shelter. It's also easy to condemn shelters as dumps full of pit mixes and mongrels if you've never actually gotten your hands dirty at one.

The horrible shock videos you see on the internet with barrels full of bodies just don't have the same effect as the real thing. I didn't really understand what the problem was until I was there in the middle of it. Honestly, you don't know anything about animal overpopulation until you've walked into the shelter as a volunteer and found out that the sweet 4 year old purebred lab that gazed lovingly into your eyes yesterday was euthanized 10 minutes ago. The worst part? He wasn't put to sleep because he was sick or mean, there just weren't enough kennels to accept the 10 new dogs adoptable dogs that just came in. You don't have to see the actual shot or the body to get upset - even seeing a new dog in his kennel or his paperwork missing from the board is usually enough.

Sorry to be such a downer, but I really get tired of people who don't know the real situation trying to talk rationally about it. You can look at numbers or anecdotal information all you want, but it won't sink in until you make it personal.

asshole casserole
Mar 6, 2006

Clinically in shame.


light_urple posted:

I can't think of a better way to turn all your ideas about animal ownership in this country upside-down. It's easy to talk positively about buying dogs in pet stores or breeding them for fun or profit without ever actually working at a shelter. It's also easy to condemn shelters as dumps full of pit mixes and mongrels if you've never actually gotten your hands dirty at one.


I volunteered at a shelter when I was in highschool. It hit me so hard when I went in one day to see my favorite cat and he was gone. I asked if he had been adopted and they just looked at me. Yeah.

Cuddlebottom
Feb 17, 2004

Butt dance.

Konstantin posted:

No long applications, home visits, or interrogations. Many breeders are elitist, requiring long waiting periods and huge background checks before you can take one of their puppies home. Shelters turn away many owners as being "not good enough" while killing thousands of dogs every year. At MillCo, we believe every puppy deserves a loving home.
Maybe, but Millco certainly isn't helping the problem by breeding more dogs.

As for the convenience clause, here's a good argument:
Even the best of breeders - like those on the Animal Channel Huge rear end Dog Show Competition of the Month or Whatever - don't actually make a profit on their animals. When providing the best care and devotion, and even selling puppies at hundreds of dollars, a good breeder is very lucky to break even on a litter. The care of puppies and breeding dogs is incredibly expensive. Millco, by its nature, must be making a profit (or else it wouldn't exist). The puppies sold by Millco are sold for approximately as much as a well-bred, pet quality dog from a reputable breeder. Because Millco must be making a large enough profit to sustain itself (unlike a breeder, who is doing it as something they love), therefore, they are spending significantly LESS per puppy than that reputable breeder. This then means their dogs are cared for poorly, in comparison to a properly bred dog, and still cost just as much. Buying from a reputable breeder is like buying from a fancy boutique with its own tailor - you get exactly the dog that fits you, exactly how you wanted it, with as many lifelong guarantees, for an excellent price. Buying from Millco is like buying from WalMart. They can't get the best dog for you, and you still pay a crummy price.

PirateFilly
Feb 21, 2007

by Lowtax


GobbleDeGook posted:

Have you ever spent any decent amount of time at a high kill shelter? Please go volunteer for a week. Make sure you are in the vet area or the kennel. After doing this come back here and tell me if you can honestly support the breeding of animals outside of a strict standard.

Yes, actually, I have. Dewey. Its a one week shelter in the heart of Las Vegas.

I've been a "customer", a volunteer, and I also spent some time with the North Las Vegas Animal Control Department and got a tour of the entire facility. I saw an entire wing of animals that was the same size as the wing of animals available to the public. I forget the name the officer called it....but lets just say you'd need ear mufflers and heavy duty gloves to spend much time in that wing. They also got seven days to live.

You know what my time there did to me? It created my abhorrence for pit bulls and any dog that resembles such. You know what 50% of the dogs on the adoptable side were mixes resembling? Pit bulls. You know what 75% of the dogs on the death row side were mixes resembling? Pit bulls. The remaining 25% on death row were composed of chow mixes, shepherd mixes, rottweiler mixes, and other "tough looking" breeds. Not a single designer dog. Not a single chihuahua. Not a single shihtzu. Not a single poodle.

On the adoptable side? They told me about 1/3 of the dogs get rescued from that side. This side had a slightly higher variety on a day to day basis. Any dog resembling a purebred dog? Nearly 100% chance of rescue. Any other small dog? Close to that percent. Everything else? Well that starts dropping in numbers.

I've seen the gas box. I've watched animals lethally injected. I cry when I see such things. If the general public had seen what I've seen...they'd probably be split into two categories. One that made a choice of a pet based on pity and the fear that the dog would be destroyed and the other half would most likely never set foot in a high kill shelter again so they wouldn't have to feel badly.

To answer your question, yes I have spent plenty of time in and around high kill shelters. I intend to pursue a career in animal control, actually. I can tell you right now, however, that high kill shelters do not make me think about pet stores. They make me despise people that are breeding the breeds that end up in those shelters.

PirateFilly
Feb 21, 2007

by Lowtax


workape posted:

Probably follow USDA rules? Have you seen USDA guidelines? This is the same USDA that signs off on the conditions in chicken farms and veal plants. Letting the USDA be in charge of companion animal breeding and care is like letting Michael Jackson run a daycare.

Then what needs to be changed here? The USDA guidelines.

Your comment about Michael Jackson makes me disregard the rest of what you've said even more than I already did. Are you Michael Jackson? Are you a child who has interacted with Michael Jackson? I didn't think so. Don't talk about things you don't know about. Passing judgments and making assumptions about issues that you hear about on the biased media is just laughable.

I had chicken for lunch today. So did millions of other Americans. I guess we all just supported chicken farms. Are you going to go stand on the corner and throw buckets of blood at KFC customers now? You're not going to solve your problem at the consumer level while KFC is still one of the most convenient chicken lunches around.

asshole casserole
Mar 6, 2006

Clinically in shame.


PirateFilly posted:

To answer your question, yes I have spent plenty of time in and around high kill shelters. I intend to pursue a career in animal control, actually. I can tell you right now, however, that high kill shelters do not make me think about pet stores. They make me despise people that are breeding the breeds that end up in those shelters.

Purebreds and small dogs get yanked by private rescues. If there wasn't a glut of these dogs from petstores and BYBs, those resources might be available to the pits and other big dogs. You are assuming that because you didn't see those dogs, they're not out there. That's really naive.

MoCookies
Apr 22, 2005



PirateFilly, you've posted time and again in defense of pet stores selling puppies, and I still can't understand why. Pet stores don't get their puppies from breeders that take good care of their dogs, they get them from puppymills that keep their breeding stock in tiny, unclean, wire cages, breed them every cycle from their first until they die. You're so good at defending the awful practices of pet stores, I'd like to see you defend the puppymills that keep them in business.

PirateFilly
Feb 21, 2007

by Lowtax


clowderhead posted:

Purebreds and small dogs get yanked by private rescues. If there wasn't a glut of these dogs from petstores and BYBs, those resources might be available to the pits and other big dogs. You are assuming that because you didn't see those dogs, they're not out there. That's really naive.

You said it yourself, they were rescued.

asshole casserole
Mar 6, 2006

Clinically in shame.


PirateFilly posted:

You said it yourself, they were rescued.

So this makes it ok to sell them? What the everloving gently caress?

If they had been sold by responsible breeders, they'd never have ended up in the shelter to begin with, since responsible breeders both screen their buyers and will take back their pups.

Just because all that was left were pits doesn't mean that pits are bad, or that pet stores are good. And you...you are the loving embodiment of what's wrong with pet owners and BSL proponents. OMG bad dogs! OMG cute puppies in the window! Pet stores wouldn't lie to us! I worked in a pet store once and everything was hunky dory.

Switchblade Susie
Dec 4, 2006
--

PirateFilly posted:

You know what my time there did to me? It created my abhorrence for pit bulls and any dog that resembles such. You know what 50% of the dogs on the adoptable side were mixes resembling? Pit bulls. You know what 75% of the dogs on the death row side were mixes resembling? Pit bulls. The remaining 25% on death row were composed of chow mixes, shepherd mixes, rottweiler mixes, and other "tough looking" breeds. Not a single designer dog. Not a single chihuahua. Not a single shihtzu. Not a single poodle.

Because I'm willing to bet that the slightest negative train in a pit mix got it sent to the "bad side" and much worse traits were overlooked in the cute little designer puppies. Everyone knows all little dogs are perfect! Designer dogs don't bite!

And we won't even go into the numbers game when it comes to pits and other "tough" dogs. That dead horse has been beaten many times...

workape
Jul 23, 2002



PirateFilly posted:

Then what needs to be changed here? The USDA guidelines.

How about creating a different body than one that regulates animals that are EATEN. Also, given how well government regulation seems to work more regulation is what we need!

PirateFilly posted:

Your comment about Michael Jackson makes me disregard the rest of what you've said even more than I already did. Are you Michael Jackson? Are you a child who has interacted with Michael Jackson? I didn't think so. Don't talk about things you don't know about. Passing judgments and making assumptions about issues that you hear about on the biased media is just laughable.

Did you really type that out? Seriously? Wow, that's pretty nuts. You completely disregard what I am saying because of a joke? Yikes, its like you are a characture of how not to debate. By the way, cherry picking a piece from someones lengthy arguement and dismissing everything that they say from it is the height of lunacy.

PirateFilly posted:

I had chicken for lunch today. So did millions of other Americans. I guess we all just supported chicken farms. Are you going to go stand on the corner and throw buckets of blood at KFC customers now? You're not going to solve your problem at the consumer level while KFC is still one of the most convenient chicken lunches around.

Are you comparing the consumption of chicken for lunch to the standards by which companion animals are bred? Seriously? Wow.

Cathis
Sep 11, 2001

Me in a hotel with a mini-bar. How's that story end?

clowderhead posted:

So this makes it ok to sell them? What the everloving gently caress?

No, i think it only makes it ok to BYB and/or sell small purebred dogs. It's the larger dogs and the mutts that are trouble!



On a related note, whatever happened to the PI flyer project? I have a pet store nearby.. in a MALL.. that needs a good flyering.(It's called Indogneato)

Milled dogs.. how about milled Bulldogs.. poor fuckers, genetic and health disasters. I am pretty drat glad the man had to give them away... there's NO EXCUSE for that sort of poo poo. Dooming an animal to a lovely life because somebody wants a quick buck OR a quick pup is atrocious.

Little_Dead_Pets
Jul 3, 2006



PirateFilly posted:

You know what my time there did to me? It created my abhorrence for pit bulls and any dog that resembles such. You know what 50% of the dogs on the adoptable side were mixes resembling? Pit bulls. You know what 75% of the dogs on the death row side were mixes resembling? Pit bulls. The remaining 25% on death row were composed of chow mixes, shepherd mixes, rottweiler mixes, and other "tough looking" breeds. Not a single designer dog. Not a single chihuahua. Not a single shihtzu. Not a single poodle.

On the adoptable side? They told me about 1/3 of the dogs get rescued from that side. This side had a slightly higher variety on a day to day basis. Any dog resembling a purebred dog? Nearly 100% chance of rescue. Any other small dog? Close to that percent. Everything else? Well that starts dropping in numbers.

Are you loving serious? You hate pits/pit mixes because so many of them get put down? I honestly have no idea how one could reach that conclusion. If you had even an ounce of compassion, you'd feel more sympathy towards these dogs, not more hate.

Additionally, if you had either a) half a brain or b) the balls to volunteer at the shelter for longer, you'd figure out that the reason so many "tough" breeds/mixes get put down is because high volume shelters need make the cut between adoptable and unadoptable dogs somewhere. Unfortunatly this falls on the pits/mixes becuase of their reputation (which btw is brought about by human ignorance).

As you have witnessed, it's easier to adopt out purebreds and small dogs. But since all you can conclude from that trend is that pitbulls automatically suck, all I can say is that you are truly a loving idiot.

edit: rear end in a top hat - I was going to use that exact set of smilies, you stinkyhole!

Little_Dead_Pets fucked around with this message at May 16, 2007 around 00:45

Pineapple
Jan 14, 2003

by Fistgrrl


Cathis posted:

On a related note, whatever happened to the PI flyer project? I have a pet store nearby.. in a MALL.. that needs a good flyering.(It's called Indogneato)

http://www.petisland.org/phpBB2/ Voting for a new name ends on friday, then I can get the new domain name and set up a basic website. I'm currently working on a betta care booklet because of this thread.

PirateFilly
Feb 21, 2007

by Lowtax


Little_Dead_Pets posted:

Are you loving serious? You hate pits/pit mixes because so many of them get put down? I honestly have no idea how one could reach that conclusion. If you had even an ounce of compassion, you'd feel more sympathy towards these dogs, not more hate.

Actually mostly I hate the people that breed them. I don't care if its a backyard breeder or one of the people trying to better the breed. If your breed of choice is one of the top 5 most abandoned animals in the country (I'm not quoting any statistics here but I'm sure there are some) then you have no business continuing to allow that animal to procreate.

As I have witnessed, as you mentioned, it is very easy to find homes for small dogs and purebred animals. For that reason..I don't buy the story that pet stores are the ones responsible for what happens at shelters every day. This is an entirely separate issue.

GobbleDeGook
Sep 13, 2005

Liberator of Butterball Dong

PirateFilly posted:

To answer your question, yes I have spent plenty of time in and around high kill shelters. I intend to pursue a career in animal control, actually. I can tell you right now, however, that high kill shelters do not make me think about pet stores. They make me despise people that are breeding the breeds that end up in those shelters.

Well, if you plan on going into animal control, the first thing you need to know is that puppy stores are not your friend. You will spend more time then you ever wish to in ALL of them because they flat out suck. If it is not a complaint of a sneezing puppy, a pup with no water, too many dogs in too small of cages, or something similar, you will receive complaints of pups dying of horrible afflictions and the store refusing to honor a refund because of one of their many loop hole clauses that translates to "what happens when you get home is your problem, we just want your money." You will play an active role in shutting a lot of these poo poo holes down because following rules and guidelines, as simple as it sounds, is not the easiest way to make a profit.

The next thing you need to know is what breed ends up in what shelter greatly depends on what area you are in. Every summer, my shelter is cram packed full of small breeds. Why? Because my area has a phenomena known as "snow birds." They come down for the winter, buy an adorable puppy to play with for 6 months. When they return to the northeast they decide it is too much hassle to bring the dog with them so they dump it. These puppy stores don't fix these dogs either. People buy them for several hundred and think "I can sell the puppies for that much!" When they get in over their head the pups get dumped at the shelter. Do breed rescues pick them up? Sometimes. They might pick up 2 out of a litter. The rest get the blue juice. If any so much as look at the rescue funny, they are not picked up.

Not that typing any of this matters. You need a good deal of sense to work in animal control which you have failed to display in your posts. I can only hope you show more sense in person than through your writing. I have nothing to say to you about your comment on pit bulls except an angry pit bull is nothing to angry standard poodle and I hope you remember that if you enter the field.

Little_Dead_Pets
Jul 3, 2006



PirateFilly posted:

Actually mostly I hate the people that breed them. I don't care if its a backyard breeder or one of the people trying to better the breed. If your breed of choice is one of the top 5 most abandoned animals in the country (I'm not quoting any statistics here but I'm sure there are some) then you have no business continuing to allow that animal to procreate.

Ummmm... so why not say that in the first place?

PirateFilly
Feb 21, 2007

by Lowtax


Little_Dead_Pets posted:

Ummmm... so why not say that in the first place?

Mistake. Probably backspaced to change some wording and didn't type what I intended. I don't like pit bulls anyways. It isn't the dogs fault that they are what they are, however.

And yes Gobble, it will be my job to make sure that pet stores are run properly and that cages aren't overcrowded and more. I've dealt with animal control in the past at the pet store I worked at a few years back. I should say that my experience there with them was rather limited since the store I worked at was pretty good about following the rules. Puppies were kept in good condition and the turnover on animals was extremely fast before you get all huffy about dogs being kept in cages for long.

I'll never agree that pet stores are inherently horrible. I wish there was a better way. There currently isn't. Walmart isn't number one because of their fabulous customer service. Sometimes companies have something to offer that producers of a better product cannot match. I do believe that pet stores need to follow the rules. I have seen pet stores that I don't approve of. This does not mean that they are all bad in my opinion. Perhaps I'm one of the lucky few who have seen some nice ones and not so many poor quality ones.

But going back to the original post....what they said really isn't anything but the truth. Its molded to make it sound how they want it to sound but I don't really see many / any blatant lies there.

asshole casserole
Mar 6, 2006

Clinically in shame.


Your biases are going to make you a terrible ACO, if you don't get laughed out of your first interview.

Cathis
Sep 11, 2001

Me in a hotel with a mini-bar. How's that story end?

PirateFilly posted:


But going back to the original post....what they said really isn't anything but the truth. Its molded to make it sound how they want it to sound but I don't really see many / any blatant lies there.
Haven't you realized yet that the first post is entirely hypothetical, fake, and IS NOT A REAL COMPANY?

Sekhmet
Nov 16, 2001


I honestly have no idea. Seriously. None, at all. Nothing here!

PirateFilly you should come to our IRC channel and hang out and chill with us for awhile.

Sekhmet fucked around with this message at May 16, 2007 around 03:30

huplescat
Jun 8, 2005


PirateFilly posted:

You know what 50% of the dogs on the adoptable side were mixes resembling? Pit bulls. You know what 75% of the dogs on the death row side were mixes resembling? Pit bulls. The remaining 25% on death row were composed of chow mixes, shepherd mixes, rottweiler mixes, and other "tough looking" breeds. Not a single designer dog. Not a single chihuahua. Not a single shihtzu. Not a single poodle.
You're looking at one pound out of several thousand worldwide. This isn't a problem in your area alone, it's far bigger than that.

Here's the website for a shelter I've volunteered at in the past:
http://www.aaps.org.au/dogs/dogs_page_one.html

Pit bulls are banned/restricted here so you won't see many in shelters or pounds.

I'd be willing to put money on the majority of dogs at AAPS being from pet shops as they just have pet shop "mix" written all over them.

Beagle X German Short Haired Pointer
Red Heeler X
German Shepherd X
Staffy X (a popular one for both pet shops and BYB's)
Malamute X
Border Collie X
Kelpie X
Husky
Staffy X Terrier
Doberman X Kelpie
Pomeranian X Tibetan Spaniel
Maltese X Shih Tzu
Jack Russell X

There are quite a few pure breed dogs there including a sharpei, a couple of greyhounds, staffy's, a couple of labs, border collie, am staff, pomeranian, GSD, american bulldog, jack russell, rottweiler, mini poodle and the malamute above looks closer to a badly bred pure than a cross.

They also have what would be considered designer dogs in from time to time. This includes labradoodles and all the other oodle varieties.

Many of these dogs are high energy (kelpies, staffys, GSDs, jack russels etc) and one of the biggest reasons why they're there is because the owner "didn't have time" for them. A lot are surrendered at between 1-2 years of age, meaning not cute anymore, full grown and still in crazy puppy mode.

Something tells me (just a hunch) that if these dogs had been purchased from a responsible breeder they would not be there. The owner would have known what they were getting into, been carefully screened by the breeder and they would have had support for the crazy puppy years. They would also be able to hand the dog back if they genuinely couldn't care for it anymore.

PET SHOPS ARE BAD M'KAY. Just because the little dogs and pure breeds get rescued first, DOES NOT mean it's ok to sell them in pet shops. They still cost money during their stay at the shelter and, believe it or not, they still get put down as there simply aren't enough homes for every homeless dog regardless of it's breed or size.

huplescat fucked around with this message at May 16, 2007 around 03:47

Little_Dead_Pets
Jul 3, 2006



PirateFilly posted:

You know what my time there did to me? It created my abhorrence for pit bulls and any dog that resembles such. You know what 50% of the dogs on the adoptable side were mixes resembling? Pit bulls. You know what 75% of the dogs on the death row side were mixes resembling? Pit bulls.

PirateFilly posted:

Actually mostly I hate the people that breed them. I don't care if its a backyard breeder or one of the people trying to better the breed. If your breed of choice is one of the top 5 most abandoned animals in the country (I'm not quoting any statistics here but I'm sure there are some) then you have no business continuing to allow that animal to procreate.

PirateFilly posted:

Mistake. Probably backspaced to change some wording and didn't type what I intended. I don't like pit bulls anyways.


LOL. Clearly posting two entirly different ideas was a mistake.

PirateFilly
Feb 21, 2007

by Lowtax


huplescat posted:

Beagle X German Short Haired Pointer
Red Heeler X
German Shepherd X
Staffy X (a popular one for both pet shops and BYB's)
Malamute X
Border Collie X
Kelpie X
Husky
Staffy X Terrier
Doberman X Kelpie
Pomeranian X Tibetan Spaniel
Maltese X Shih Tzu
Jack Russell X
1) mutt
2) Not commonly sold in pet stores
3) Not commonly sold in pet stores
4) Absolutely never seen one in any pet store.
5) Not commonly sold in pet stores
6) Occasionally sold in pet stores
7) Never even heard of this breed, not sold in pet stores
8) Thats the result of a dumb pet owner letting his dog out of the yard
9) Same as #8
10) Not a mix seen in pet stores. The parents may have been, however
11) THAT one came from a pet store.
12) Commonly sold in pet stores

So out of that list you posted...there is one dog that has a good chance that it came from a pet store. There are two animals that MAY have come from pet stores. The other 9 I would wager money that they definitely did not come from a pet store.

So what was your list trying to prove? I followed the link to look at dog number 11. Tag 25580 – Maltese X Shih Tzu – Male – 4 years – “Zulu” & Tag 25579 – Maltese X Shih Tzu – Male – 6 years – “Tank” - ADOPTED. Adopted.

What you've demonstrated in your post is that most of the homeless dogs in shelters did not come from pet stores. You've further shown me that of the dogs that wind up in shelters that DO come from pet stores, they usually get rescued.

*edit* Yes you're right. Theres a purebred poodle at that shelter. Tag 25503 – Miniature Poodle – Female – 11 years – “Belle”-ADOPTED. I'm sorry, there WAS a purebred poodle there. At even an age near death, it was adopted. Exactly how many 11 year old mutts get adopted in comparison to 11 year old poodles?

asshole casserole
Mar 6, 2006

Clinically in shame.


What's wrong with mutts again?

Oh, and where did these mutts come from? Possibly purebred parents, from somewhere there wasn't a spay/neuter contract...like from a loving pet store.

You're being stupid.

SachielDVangel
Jun 4, 2003


PirateFilly posted:

You said it yourself, they were rescued.

PirateFilly posted:

*edit* Yes you're right. Theres a purebred poodle at that shelter. Tag 25503 � Miniature Poodle � Female � 11 years � �Belle�-ADOPTED. I'm sorry, there WAS a purebred poodle there. At even an age near death, it was adopted. Exactly how many 11 year old mutts get adopted in comparison to 11 year old poodles?
Adopted or moved into rescue? Rescue meaning: it still might need a home. Shuffling a dog off to a rescue doesn't mean everything's allright now, it has a home... because it doesn't. It only means the dog was moved into a foster home under an organization that has a much better chance of finding an appropriate home for it based on its breed.

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asshole casserole
Mar 6, 2006

Clinically in shame.


Wait wait. 11 for a mini poodle is near death? I thought you knew something about dogs. I've seen 18 year old mini poodles going strong.

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