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Live 1-2 I have $800, both villains cover. The small blind is an unknown to me, while the other villain in middle position is a older, thinking player (OTP) that I have played with a handful of times. I have been playing pretty tight, and I know that only the older player knows this. I am sitting on the button with A  6 $10 straddle is in place this hand, 2 limpers before me, I raise to $40. There are only two callers, the two mentioned above. Pot: $140 Flop: 6  8 2 Sb checks, OTP checks, Hero bets $80, both call Pot: $380 Turn: A  Sb checks, OTP checks, hero checks River: 2 Sb checks, OTP bets $160, Hero Calls, Sb raises to $600, OTP calls, hero??? 1) Hows my line look? 2) Are we calling or folding?
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Feb 7, 2007 09:13
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| # ? Apr 18, 2024 06:47 |
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I'm not really familiar with live play that much, but with a straddle, why would you want to raise here with A6s? Anyway, flop bet looks good, but that is a really easy turn bet, hope you get check-raised and push it in.
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Feb 7, 2007 12:56
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This is sort of interesting because it's full ring and the villain is a goon/therefore not a total idiot like everyone else on cake. Cake 5/10, 9 handed. A bunch of people have short stacks. Jotun665 (goon) and another guy have 1k and I cover. Jotun is TAG and usually pretty nitty but adjusts to cake morons by ocassionally calling down light (sometimes too light against regulars). 3 folds 4th and 5th position limp Jotun in the CO makes it $55 random who has $455 to start the hand cold calls on the button SB folds I make it $200 total from the BB with Q  QJotun calls flop 7 66The pot is ~$480 and Jotun has $785 behind. Now what? What do you think his range is for cold calling my 3bet? Does he do it with AA/KK? Will he call an open push with JJ or TT? Does he bet if checked to with any two cards he called PF with? What I did: I check raised his $300 bet all in
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Feb 7, 2007 14:39
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Live Hand 1/2Euro, I don't recall this hand too well but the general texture of the board is correct. BB is a LAG that has been mixing up this hands well that I am having a lot of trouble reading. He will play hands in various ways and will sometimes check raise you light or check raise you with the nuts. MP3 is not a horrible player but he is pretty easy to read. Bets when he has some hands and will sometimes checkraises, although I have yet to see him checkraise bluff or make any horrible plays. I am in the SB, effective stacks I will say is about 175, I have 43o. MP3 limps in, I complete, BB checks. Flop is J74 with two diamonds, I check, BB bets, MP3 calls, I call. Turn is the 9 of diamonds I believe, I check, BB checks, MP3 checks. River is a 4. I check, BB bets $10-12 (slightly 2/3 of the pot), MP3 thinks about it for a minute and calls as well. I think about it for a little while and I figure that I have to call and I take down the pot. When we're at showdown and I flip my 4 up, he remarks, "nice call" (he only had a pair of 7s), MP3 mucks so I have no idea what he had to call. So was my call bad or should I have raised? In this situation I felt that no one is going to call my raise unless they beat me and I don't really want to decide to fold my hand to someone who will/can push with something like a pair of 7s. Does raising here actually accomplish anything other than maybe folding out a baby flush? My kicker here is so bad that I don't feel like I get any value out of raising and only causes me to face a tougher decision if someone comes over the top. MP3 could also easily have a 4 as well and my kicker is absolute poo poo.
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Feb 7, 2007 16:09
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EC10 posted:QQ hand As a nit, I'd expect him to have KK there. A 3-bet from the BB full ring is showing some real strength. Cold call would be JJ-KK, maybe AA, and an outside chance TT, AK. Either way I think you're both going to the felt on this flop. If you check he'll bet any of those pairs, and likely check AK behind. I am a real nit!
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Feb 7, 2007 16:14
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EC10 posted:This is basically every advice thread on 2+2, and every response I see is bet pot (maybe a little more) and if he comes over the top then fold. I would be inclined to agree because I don't think someone is going to try and push with JJ, TT or 99. However, you are on Cake so who freaking knows 
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Feb 7, 2007 18:32
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faarcyde posted:This is basically every advice thread on 2+2, and every response I see is bet pot (maybe a little more) and if he comes over the top then fold. I would be inclined to agree because I don't think someone is going to try and push with JJ, TT or 99. However, you are on Cake so who freaking knows bet-folding here is horrible because of stack sizes and pot size. if i bet pot and then fold, i'll be folding getting over 4:1 which is awful.
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Feb 7, 2007 18:39
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Not to mention you should generally try and structure your lines so that you're the one putting in the last bet, so you have the final fold equity, not them.
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Feb 7, 2007 21:00
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EC10 posted:This is sort of interesting because it's full ring and the villain is a goon/therefore not a total idiot like everyone else on cake.
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Feb 7, 2007 21:53
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faarcyde posted:This is basically every advice thread on 2+2, and every response I see is bet pot (maybe a little more) and if he comes over the top then fold. If he bets the pot and then folds to a shove, he will be getting nearly 6 to 1 on a call with a good overpair. Since no one in their right mind would advocate this on 2p2, I am pretty sure that we are not reading the same things. CRai seems pretty good here, as does betting and calling a push; I don't think you can find a fold here.
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Feb 7, 2007 23:05
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No; we ; are; the; web; site; is; two; plus; two; dot; com; right?
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Feb 7, 2007 23:17
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faarcyde posted:No; we ; are; the; web; site; is; two; plus; two; dot; com; right? Okay, link us to a thread where the consensus seriously advocates what you are saying. Semicolon.
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Feb 8, 2007 00:08
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Faarcyde I'm not trying to stir up a bunch of poo poo but are you doing the whole 'bad advice' shtick just to be funny? This isn't the only thread that you've had some pretty strange advice in.
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Feb 8, 2007 00:50
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Stefan Prodan posted:Not to mention you should generally try and structure your lines so that you're the one putting in the last bet, so you have the final fold equity, not them. In general I think that you want less, not more fold equity here if you decide that you want to felt QQ (which seems pretty standard against a CO open). AA and KK are never folding this flop, and having fold equity on 88-JJ hands is bad, not good, since you want them to be pot committed. In this respect I think the CRai line is very good, although I think I would usually bet out $300-350 or so as a default (which I don't think is as good).
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Feb 8, 2007 01:34
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ElProducto posted:Faarcyde I'm not trying to stir up a bunch of poo poo but are you doing the whole 'bad advice' shtick just to be funny? This isn't the only thread that you've had some pretty strange advice in. No it isn't a schtick, I revoke my advice. EC10 explained to me why it was, I didn't consider pot odds because I am a donk. I think I have only given advice in like two other threads ever so I dunno, but I will stop 
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Feb 8, 2007 01:49
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albedoa posted:Okay, link us to a thread where the consensus seriously advocates what you are saying. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=9093363&an=0&page=0#Post9093363 This is the thread I was thinking of, but there positions are switched around that is why I gave some pretty horrible advice. If you were in position EC10 I would probably fold to a big bet on the flop. Sorry for the mix-up.
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Feb 8, 2007 01:58
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That hand isn't the same, at all. There's pretty much nothing similar about the two hands except that they both involve the OP having QQ. Anyway Jotun called my crai with the two other queens.
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Feb 8, 2007 02:03
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EC10 posted:This is sort of interesting because it's full ring and the villain is a goon/therefore not a total idiot like everyone else on cake. Pretty much the only way to play it.
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Feb 8, 2007 03:21
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KQs vs A2s shorthanded with a flush on the flop. Is there any way out, or is this a standard cooler?
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Feb 8, 2007 04:38
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Hey man I wasn't trying to be a dick it's just sometimes people go around and gie bad or wierd advice on purpose and it's not really what the forum is about. If you aren't doing that then you're cool by me.
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Feb 8, 2007 04:42
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LorneReams posted:KQs vs A2s shorthanded with a flush on the flop. Is there any way out, or is this a standard cooler? Standard cooler. I'm sure you can find some hand somewhere where the tightest player ever pushed allin and you should have folded (in fact Alan Friedman or whatever his name was started crying because he called with a Khi flush vs. the Ahi flush) but don't worry about it.
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Feb 8, 2007 08:51
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Morphius22000 posted:Standard cooler. Haha that was awesome. "I played perfect poker...FOR THREE DAYS WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY"
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Feb 8, 2007 09:53
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blah_blah posted:In general I think that you want less, not more fold equity here if you decide that you want to felt QQ (which seems pretty standard against a CO open). AA and KK are never folding this flop, and having fold equity on 88-JJ hands is bad, not good, since you want them to be pot committed. In this respect I think the CRai line is very good, although I think I would usually bet out $300-350 or so as a default (which I don't think is as good). Actually this sounds exactly right and I'm not sure what I was thinking!
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Feb 8, 2007 22:05
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LuckySevens posted:I'm not really familiar with live play that much, but with a straddle, why would you want to raise here with A6s? I have position with tons of dead money in the pot. UTG had never raised his straddle, so I pretty much planned on raising with any two cards. The raise is me getting a little out of line, but was a standard play on an unusually tight table. My plan was to rep a big pair, "float" the flop to inflate the pot, check what is hopefully a diamond turn, then get as much value as possible on the river. I didn't think either player was strong enough on the turn that an ace helped that much, and my image at the time was really nitty. I guess most of my line is based on my play with OTP, who is betting the river most of the time thinking I have qq/jj. In the villains eyes I am only raising with jj+, and totally sold the fear of an ace. Initially I had planned on getting it in on the turn, but felt it would stink of a set instead of my 2 pair+nut flush draw.
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Feb 9, 2007 01:02
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The cretins on Cake stand out. This guy didn't. I wouldn't say he was a good player but he'd done nothing to humiliate himself. http://www.pokerhand.org/?806728 Elproducto says I should raise or fold. I can see the argument for raising but it strikes me as bloating the pot up when I'd like to see SD or I can take it away on the turn. Folding seems tight; this is a pretty sweet flop for me considering I didn't hit. Calling seems kinda weak, but this seems like a regular cbet. I'd like to see the turn and make a judgement. I did and he check-folded. Elproducto says I'm being results orientated. I was just trying to deploy what Sklansky says about nto making a big pot with a mediocre hand. Thoughts. I need help for places like this.
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Feb 9, 2007 06:09
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Look at it from the other side. As someone who almost always c-bets heads up, I find it difficult to adjust to players who float 75%+ of my c-bets. I find it easier to deal with raisers and (obviously) folders. It takes some tweaking before I get used a player at my table who floats in position all the time. If this guy c-bets frequently and is like me, why not check out how he reacts to a call? This is read-dependent for me. I like reraising AQs preflop there usually, also based on reads.
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Feb 9, 2007 06:37
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http://cakepoker.com/HandHistory/?Hand=xcTHzcTFxcbNzcTExMLMzYjFwcPFwM0%3d i am moving up to 100NL and taking some shots at it...not sure if i should of folded there? i didn't have any info on the guy..i was gonna take a shot at a rag flop..what do you guys think? i had QQ btw, incase the hh doesn't show it
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Feb 9, 2007 06:44
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Strong Sauce posted:1/2 hand No one ever responded, so I will. It's not a bad call, you've got a made three of a kind and there wasn't any aggression from MP (so you've probably got him beat). Raising opens you up to a lot of hands that could beat you reraising (whereas a 7 or 9 probably won't call), and you don't want to call off a lot of money losing. FT: I'm more with albedoa, I like floating in position when flops probably haven't hit him. Although I'd float sometimes, raise sometimes, and depending on reads (if he c-bets a lot) I would fold a few times (maybe 20%) because he's raising with lots of hands that missed shorthanded. But yes I'd also RR preflop with AQs usually. Morphius22000 fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Feb 9, 2007 |
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Feb 9, 2007 06:54
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FT: In that situation, I either raise or fold as elprod says. If he pushes or reraises, im folding. If he calls, its a whole new ball game and the turn card and his action would dictate the next move. I want to find out where I am in the hand.
souLjah fucked around with this message at 07:35 on Feb 9, 2007 |
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Feb 9, 2007 07:26
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Yeah you're right in that you don't want to build a pot with a mediocre hand, but if he's going to fold the turn, he's going to fold here. Calling basically gives him a free card to beat you. If you raise and he calls, the pot is big but you know you're beaten and there's no reason to fight with the hand.
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Feb 9, 2007 18:16
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Here's a 2/4 Cake hand that had me a bit confused. The limper who calls behind and pots the flop was somewhat new to me (first time at the table, only seen 10 orbits or so). I had seen him play very aggressive postflop whenever he had raised preflop, and also a few times when he limped in position and a coordinated board came out. Couldn't recall a showdown of note, since I would have added that in my notes on him. The PFR was a standard shortie, raising with any pair or two broadway and shoving any flop. http://www.pokerhand.org/?809876 At the moment of the bet then re-shove, I figured that at best I was versus a strong draw that wasn't likely to fold in the bigstack, and underpair/KQ/KJ/QJ from the shortie. With my huge stack, I wasn't prepared to dance for up to 150BB versus this action, when I was sure to be presented with a far better spot not too far down the Cake road. I later had second thoughts about the hand, and realized there was something I hadn't considered. Those musings, and subsequently the results, are spoilered below. Thoughts: Perhaps I should have led out at the flop, but this is the kind of board where any KQ, Q9, 98, two clubs, etc is calling (maybe shoving), and I'm in an awkward spot. JT, 44, JJ, TT might smooth call and then again I'm in an awkward situation on the turn. Once I checked, the pot bet by the MP was a bit bizarre since it tried to scream strength, but he had to know shortie was shoving anyways, so it was almost a pre-emptive isolation play. I make this kind of lead often with a set vs a deepstacked pfr who I want to re-shove their overpair. Versus someone so short who you almost KNOW is going to shove any flop, this pot-sized lead perhaps should've been interpreted as villain having a mediocre hand or decent draw. Results: They had J9o and J8o respectively, and the bigstack took it down.
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Feb 10, 2007 09:07
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Ehh, I really prefer folding here, and here's my logic. 1) If you flatcall, the bigstack will certainly do so as well. Now there are so many bad cards for you to see (any K, Q, club, 9, even an A if he has KQ) where you'll have to fold to a big bet as you'll only have TPTK(except for the A obv, where you have top two). If a blank comes, you can be pretty sure you're ahead, as JT and 44 probably wouldnt slowplay, but if he fires again, do you want to go broke with this hand? 2) If you flatcall, the bigstack can also reshove, where you probably have to fold. You've seen him be aggressive on coordinated boards, but that doesn't mean he didn't have it, as you've never seen a showdown. There's no reason to dump that much money with TPTK, once again. 3) Isolating is a possibility, but still this isn't strong enough to throw away money in a RR to 500, at which point you're committed anyway.
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Feb 10, 2007 09:37
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Morphius22000 posted:Ehh, I really prefer folding here, and here's my logic. Yeah, my flop decision was re-pot, which is an allin for the bigstack villain, or just fold and keep my investment at a tidy $22 and wait for a better spot. I've made a ton of similar folds on Cake the past few weeks (where I feel I'm slightly ahead, or way behind), and it's been working quite well so far so I went with my gut. This is up there with the tougher decisions though, hence my posting it.
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Feb 10, 2007 09:40
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kalensc posted:Here's a 2/4 Cake hand that had me a bit confused. You are a way better FR player than I ever was and I haven't explored the depths of Cake donkishness, but you are almost never way ahead here; most of the time you are flipping coins or drawing to <6 outs; I think a fold is super standard here (and good most of the time!)
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Feb 10, 2007 12:06
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This is a good thread and I need to read it more. EC10's original hand: I would bet $275 into the $480 pot and call his push. This is exactly how I'd play AQ or AK too, except I'd fold if/when he pushes. I don't really like check-raising all in unless Jotun bets a lot when checked to in re-raised pots, which doesn't make sense since your check is mighty fishy in of itself. edit: I really wanna know EC10's thought process behind the check. Would Jotun be more willing to stack off with say JJ,TT,99 on the turn if you check the flop? Psyduck fucked around with this message at 13:12 on Feb 10, 2007 |
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Feb 10, 2007 12:56
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kalensc posted:... This is a tricky hand since the guy leading into you has 175bbs and you cover him. I would call momo's push (total of $150?) over the $91 bet and not put any more money into the pot. If big stack pushes over your call I would fold. But if he has KJ QJ or some other smaller J, he's going to be terrified of your call the same way that you're terrified of his lead. Both of you have 175bb stacks and there's no way he'd push over you with a hand you beat - but he *will* lead with a wide range that you beat - smaller J's, flush draws and straight draws. If he just calls after your call, I would check it down obviously. If he bets again on turn and river, I am folding. If a club comes and he leads, fold. If a K or a Q comes and he does the same, fold again. However, I cannot fault your fold since it's a multi-way pot and they'd BOTH have to have smaller J's for you to make a profitable call (along with the reverse implied odds with the big stack sitting there with possible draws). All I'm saying is that the shorty push means jack-poo poo, since well, he's a shorty. The lead is scary, but because I think you have his current range beaten with your TPTK, I would call and re-evaluate. 3-betting over the shorty's push is very bad obviously since it commits you to putting in 175bbs and big stack will only call when really ahead. You will get him to fold draws though :p edit: kalensc posted:Yeah, my flop decision was re-pot, which is an allin for the bigstack villain, or just fold and keep my investment at a tidy $22 and wait for a better spot. I've made a ton of similar folds on Cake the past few weeks (where I feel I'm slightly ahead, or way behind), and it's been working quite well so far so I went with my gut. This is up there with the tougher decisions though, hence my posting it. It's not always fold or push. I prefer calling here for the reasons I mentioned before. Call and re-evaluate, both on the flop and on the turn. Psyduck fucked around with this message at 13:14 on Feb 10, 2007 |
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Feb 10, 2007 13:03
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Fat Turkey posted:http://www.pokerhand.org/?806728 This is fine occasionally (the float on the 622 flop) if he c-bets close to 100% and opens a fairly wide range. However I do agree that you should be repopping him pf with your strong hand more often than not. It's 6-handed and AQs is a monster here. ...Not exactly mind-blowing I guess, but it's a small pot and you took a line that you should definitely take sometimes.
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Feb 10, 2007 13:11
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Psyduck posted:This is a good thread and I need to read it more. Out of curiosity, do you 3bet AQ out of the blinds there?
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Feb 10, 2007 13:17
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duffman posted:Live 1-2 You need to start betting closer to the pot when you flop a monster with a hand like A6s. Pot the flop, bet turn 100% of the time, but probably smaller than pot so you can keep smaller flush draws in there. I mean jesus, you have top two AND the nut flush draw in a multi-way pot, what more can you ask from A6s? On the river, I like your call of the OTP's bet, but I would fold after SB raises and OTP STILL calls.
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Feb 10, 2007 13:19
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| # ? Apr 18, 2024 06:47 |
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blah_blah posted:Out of curiosity, do you 3bet AQ out of the blinds there? Most of the time, but it's probably not correct just because we're dealing with full ring here and players like Jotun are (correctly) more nitty. I primarily play 6-max and I would 3-bet AQ almost all the time in this situation, and I misplace my aggression by doing the same thing in full ring games against opponents that are much tighter. At the same time, Jotun is a good player, so your 3-bets (and squeezes, because this IS a squeeze) cannot ALWAYS be AK and JJ+, because he will catch on and fold whatever part of his opening range is beaten by AK and JJ+, and will shove over/call with the other part that beats AK and JJ+. Thus, instead of 3-betting with hands like AQ, you can 3-bet and squeeze with suited connectors and sometimes small pocket pairs. I expect that EC10 is doing this against an observant player like Jotun (or maybe he doesn't even bother, since I doubt they actively try to play pots against each other and instead go after weaker players). This is why his play is so dependent on game-dynamic. *I* say that I would lead here for $275 (like 3/5 the pot) because after re-raising I lead almost all the time. However, his play of checking could easily be better just because he understands the current dynamic better than I do. Is Jotun raising a lot of limpers? Is this the first time EC10 squeezed Jotun? etc. And maybe EC10 isn't leading with QQ because that lead may only get called by better hands (i.e. is Jotun nitty enough to fold JJ here?)
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Feb 10, 2007 13:28
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