Ask me about Blindness

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SemiExtremist: Apr 23, 2007; Middle aged fractal lady visits ocean, gets scared

My mother is in the process of going blind (she has bad hearing too.. it's a particular disorder that affects both senses, but her vision tends to worsen over time). She's become basically a social recluse, because of the difficulty of being in public with her disability. Between going blind and having no friends, she's slipping into depression. She has no proper "training" for being blind, so is unemployed and obviously is too blind at this point to drive. What do you to socialize and meet other people? Also, this may be a bit strange to ask, but she's truly in a denial stage of going blind. She refuses to use her cane, and is hesitating on going any blind school. Can you offer me any ideas on how to help her deal with this?

# ? Aug 20, 2007 02:14

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# ? Apr 19, 2024 18:58

art of spoonbending: Jun 18, 2005; Grimey Drawer

There was once a person (I think they were pygmy) who apparantly lived in the jungle their entire life and never had the opportunity to see further than the odd clearings of trees. When removed from the jungle and shown elephants in the distance, the person supposedly thought they were viewing tiny elephants only a few metres in front of them as they had no concept of perspective.

art of spoonbending fucked around with this message at 04:55 on Aug 23, 2007

# ? Aug 20, 2007 15:26

MikeJF: Dec 20, 2003

Here's an exercise. Touch something; a can or glass or something, with your index finger touching the bottom of the can and your middle finger touching the top. The point where the two fingers meet would be the eye, the image of the can in our vision would be the gap in between the fingers.

Now pull back a foot or two from the can keeping your hand in that position, but change your fingers so that if they were really long they'd still be touching the top and the bottom of the can. They get closer together. And that's why objects in the distance seem smaller. It decreases constantly, predictably.

It's pretty much like this in our eyes. Light from each point on objects we see goes in a straight line into the small pupil in the front of our eyes, and all the lines of light cross each other at a single point near the front of our eyes and then diverge slightly before they hit the back where they're registered. So if something's close up, the lines of light from points on the object are at very different angles and thus strike a lot of different light-sensitive cells at the back of our eyes, and thus look bigger. But if they're far away the lines of light are all nearly parallel to each other and thus they all strike only a few of the cells at the back of the eye.

# ? Aug 20, 2007 16:27

Caffeinated Sloth: Apr 12, 2007; Grimey Drawer

tw0k1ngs posted:

I know this will be difficult to answer (this is open to other goons as well), since your experience is based purely of off social perception, prejudice, and word of mouth, but do you think it is possible for someone with a visual impairment to have an eating disorder?

I think it's very possible. I haven't ever suffered from an eating disorder but I can see how the pressure of appearing socially acceptable could cause that. I get almost all of my information on what looks correct or not in a given situation from other people, since it isn't socially acceptable to just wander around and touch others to get an idea of what they're wearing or body language. I'm able to get an idea of the media's idea of "the perfect figure" even if I can't visualize it in every detail. The intresting thing is that, if I were totally focused on becoming that ideal, I wouldn't necessarily know when I'd reached it without something to compare to. Since most of my information comes from other people, if they were less than truthful or if I accepted everything as truth, I might keep striving for that illusory goal and never reach it. That doesn't sound like much fun. Hopefully it answered your question. If not ask and I'll clarify.

tw0k1ngs posted:

Another question: How is your sense of relativity between object size? If I were to tell you Yao Ming were standing next to a "little person"... having previously measured distances similar to the heights of these two objects, can you mentally "compare" two object lengths?

I don't have a sense of the heights of "Yao Ming" and "little person." I'd picture two people, one noticeably taller than the other,but that's as much detail as I could come up with. If you assigned a height to one person and said that the other person was a foot shorter, and I could think of something that was the height of one of the people, I'd have a better sense of the difference. I know that I'm six feet tall, and usually think of other people in comparison to myself.

tw0k1ngs posted:

One more... :P: Because it is the optic center of the brain that is damaged, and not necessarily a portion that can interpret visual "stimuli" (I assume), have you ever had any experience/considered an experience with hallucinogens? Do you believe you could experience color?

I haven't had any experience. My guess is that I might perceive something and think it was color, but I don't think it would actually be color.

# ? Aug 20, 2007 16:27

Caffeinated Sloth: Apr 12, 2007; Grimey Drawer

tw0k1ngs posted:

If thrown into a pool, would you inherently know which way was up? (assuming you had become disoriented and spun around) I would imagine it would be quite scary having only a 25% chance of swimming in the proper direction...

The human body is buoyant, so I'd just stop and wait until I began rising toward the surface. I'd then know in which direction to swim.

# ? Aug 20, 2007 16:29

Caffeinated Sloth: Apr 12, 2007; Grimey Drawer

Adolfo Castro posted:

I'm creating a simple html page, and wanted to just insert an object from a separate html page for the navigation bar. I haven't tried it yet, but I think it's quite simple to just insert a separate html page hosted in the same place as an object. My problem is that when looking into a small example, someone mentioned that JAWS readers for some reason have a problem with this function. Is this true, and is there a work around?

It depends on how you insert the object, but you'll probably be fine. Reply or PM me if you'd like for me to take a look.

# ? Aug 20, 2007 16:32

Caffeinated Sloth: Apr 12, 2007; Grimey Drawer

Holy Cow posted:

Also what do you make of this? It's a virtual barbershop.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUDTlvagjJA

Is this the same as that audio file posted in GBS a few months ago? (Youtube is filtered for me now.) If so, it's pretty amazing.

Some people have used stereo microphones and created podcasts of their daily lives. If the microphones are placed properly, and you have decent headphones, it really does feel like you're walking along or whatever they're doing. I've actually flinched when, based on the sound of objects around the person, I'd expect them/me to run into something.

# ? Aug 20, 2007 16:39

Caffeinated Sloth: Apr 12, 2007; Grimey Drawer

SemiExtremist posted:

What do you to socialize and meet other people?

I just sort of go out and see who I come across. I'm not getting the
results I'm after because I think that a lot of people simply don't
approach me--and, if they aren't calling attention to themselves in some
way, I often don't know that they're around. Are there any local groups
that might cator to interests that your mother has? She's probably
looking for different things socially than I am.

SemiExtremist posted:

Also, this may be a bit strange to ask, but she's truly in a denial stage of going blind. She refuses to use her cane, and is hesitating on going any blind school. Can you offer me any ideas on how to help her deal with this?

The term to search for is "rehabilitation center." (I hate that term, by the way.) They're usually residential centers, and the idea is that your mother would spend time there and learn how to accomplish tasks without sight. These would include travel, cooking, labeling items, etc. She would also ideally meet new friends and move to some stage other than denial.

It's important to do some research, especially if considering a rehabilitation center. Most states will either have one in-state or will try to send all clients to a specific center. Some centers are good, and others leave a lot to be desired.

Your state government should have a division geared to services for the blind, probably within a Dept. of Human Services or something similar. They would be a good point of contact and could recommend services. They may also be able to work with your mother 1-on-1 to teach necessary skills. Now that I think of it this is probably the approach that makes the most sense, but I'll leave the Center comments for the benefit of others.

Their are a number of organizations made up of blind members which have chapters in various cities. They may be helpful as a source of support or ideas. The organizations tend to have differing cultures, so "shopping around" may be in order.

If you have other questions, feel free to reply or PM.

# ? Aug 20, 2007 17:28

DoggPickle: Jan 16, 2004; LAFFO

This is a great thread. I have read the entire thing, starting from the first day you posted. I didn't want to ask anything boring so I haven't posted before.

First a comment. I think we are particularly fascinated by you (at least this is my perception) because there are lots of deaf people in the media and in our lives, but we have a ton less exposure to the blind. We see deaf people on TV, and in movies. Marly Matlin is a big celebrity. We also have everyday access to subtitles in TV shows. When you go to a bar or any other loud place, they will often have the subtitles running on the TV sets so that people can watch the news or football or whatever and still get the gist of what is going on, even though they can't hear it. That's not to mention that we all watch movies in foreign languages while reading the subtitles. Lots of us learned at least the alphabet in sign language in elementary school. There were multiple deaf kids in my classes growing up, and there is actually a full deaf college near here in DC (which is on the news all the time because the students always get pissed when a new administrator is chosen that isn't deaf enough

).

But blindness, we don't get much exposure to, so it is harder to relate. I don't recall ever having a blind student in any of my classes. Most people have never heard of those neat riftrax type movie tracks that you described that have small audio clues describing the action happening on screen, whereas we have all watched stuff with subtitles and can completely imagine what a movie is like without the sound.

Do you know any statistics about how many blind people there are in the USA versus deaf people? Because either there are a lot more deaf folks or blind people are a ton more subtle/stay at home more/are more reluctant to be in the public eye. The deaf community is actually pretty active and visible.

Okay now my questions!
1)I'm a girl, so most times that I wonder about being blind are more related to girly things. This may sound a bit gross, but I always wondered how blind women avoid embarrassing mistakes surrounding their period? If a drop of blood goes somewhere stray, they would not be able to see it at all. I am guessing blind women have some very embarrassing stories related to this, or else they have a sixth sense about what liquids are which.

The closest I can get to explaining what I am asking here is that one night I was sleeping and sort of woke up because my nose was running, and I guess I wiped it with my arm and wrist and stuff because I didn't want to get up. Then I woke up in the morning and to my horror, my nose had actually been bleeding the whole time, not running, and I had rubbed it all over everything! But in the dark, I had not been able to tell the difference. I guess you probably don't know the details of this because you don't have to deal with it, being a guy and all. It's just something that has always made me curious.

2)I would imagine the type of girl you would find the most attractive in body type would be someone who is thin but with a solid curvy smooth skin. Is this right? Like say 5'6" 130-140 pounds. I am straight, but I always thought a smooth curvy girl would feel better than a bonier skinny girl. Since you don't normally see the models in ads and only get a perception of people by touch, I think you would be surprised with how skinny the women on TV and movies and Magazines are right now. I bet if we plucked say, Eva Longoria out of her mansion and you got to "feel her up", you would be surprised with how skinny most women on TV are. I mean, I rarely see people in real life who are shaped like the perfect body type in media. This is not meant as some crazy feminist rant, just a curiosity.

3)You have said that you wish more people approached you and tried to make friends. How would you suggest someone do that without coming across like they are pitying you or just talking to you because of the blindness? I am generally friendly but I would not normally just talk to a stranger who was by himself unless he said something to me first. Then on the other hand, I realize that you simply can't do that because you don't necessarily know who is around you and what they are doing. I think people don't talk to you out of the blue like that, because they don't want to be person number 6,000 who has just done that to you in one day. It's like trying to be cool in front of a celebrity.

4)Are there any sports that translate well to you? I like football but I can see how that would be nearly impossible to follow in a fun way without watching. I love tennis though, and I often listen to the matches without video and can follow along perfectly. I did play for a long time though, so I think my brain translates the audio quality of each hit and the other noises on the court to paint a pretty good picture of what is going on. The announcers often comment on each play as well. Are there any sports that you can enjoy listening to?

Anyways, it is nice reading this thread. Like I was trying to convey at the beginning, I think your average person is a lot more acclimated to the life of a deaf person that a blind one, so your answers are neat and sometimes surprising. Especially being blind from birth, it is fascinating what things you simply have no interest in at all.

# ? Aug 20, 2007 21:31

Caffeinated Sloth: Apr 12, 2007; Grimey Drawer

DoggPickle posted:

First a comment.

This makes a lot of sense and is pretty interesting to think about. It's also worth noting that a lot of the blind characters shown on movies/TV do a very poor job at showing what it's actually like and do a very good job at playing to peoples' expectations.

DoggPickle posted:

There were multiple deaf kids in my classes growing up, and there is actually a full deaf college near here in DC (which is on the news all the time because the students always get pissed when a new administrator is chosen that isn't deaf enough ).

I remember reading articles about their latest protest. I was impressed by how organized everything was.

DoggPickle posted:

Do you know any statistics about how many blind people there are in the USA versus deaf people? Because either there are a lot more deaf folks or blind people are a ton more subtle/stay at home more/are more reluctant to be in the public eye.

The American Foundation for the Blind has a comprehensive Blindness Statistics page. Gallaudet has statistics on the Deaf Population of the United States.

DoggPickle posted:

The deaf community is actually pretty active and visible.

From what I've seen, the blindness community is somewhat fragmented. A number of organizations are trying to change this, sometimes going about it in differing and not so complementary ways.

DoggPickle posted:

1)I'm a girl, so most times that I wonder about being blind are more related to girly things. This may sound a bit gross, but I always wondered how blind women avoid embarrassing mistakes surrounding their period?

Not gross at all. I'd imagine that they're just very conscious about when periods are due and take precautions to limit where blood might go.

DoggPickle posted:

The closest I can get to explaining what I am asking here is that one night I was sleeping and sort of woke up because my nose was running, and I guess I wiped it with my arm and wrist and stuff because I didn't want to get up. Then I woke up in the morning and to my horror, my nose had actually been bleeding the whole time, not running, and I had rubbed it all over everything! But in the dark, I had not been able to tell the difference.

In that situation I'd wash everything and hope for the best. Thankfully I'm not prone to nosebleeds.

DoggPickle posted:

2)I would imagine the type of girl you would find the most attractive in body type would be someone who is thin but with a solid curvy smooth skin. Is this right? Like say 5'6" 130-140 pounds. I am straight, but I always thought a smooth curvy girl would feel better than a bonier skinny girl.

Based on the girls that I've been with and their body types, I'd say this is probably true. I'm probably less focused on body type than some because I'll only really notice when we're actually touching or in reactions from other people. I'm interested--no doubt about that--but it's not something that I try to figure out immediately after meeting someone.

DoggPickle posted:

Since you don't normally see the models in ads and only get a perception of people by touch, I think you would be surprised with how skinny the women on TV and movies and Magazines are right now.

You're probably correct. I think of models on TV as "significantly skinnier than the average" but I can't picture exactly what that is. It would actually be pretty interesting to examine models of the various body types to see if my ideas match reality. I've only closely examined the bodies of women that I've been intimate with.

DoggPickle posted:

3)You have said that you wish more people approached you and tried to make friends. How would you suggest someone do that without coming across like they are pitying you or just talking to you because of the blindness?

I can totally understand someone using my blindness as a conversation starter, and that's fine with me. Moving the topic away from blindness is a good way to show that you have other interests. Asking where I work is good, but given the 70% unemployment statistic from AFB, that might not always be a safe question. Describing something and asking what I think of it works too. I think that all of the usual methods of keeping conversation going are applicable. If you only ask about blindness, and especially if you react to my attempts at changing the subject by bring it back, I'll think that you're just out for information. Of course if you came out and said that you were interested in being friends, we'd both be on the same page.

DoggPickle posted:

I am generally friendly but I would not normally just talk to a stranger who was by himself unless he said something to me first. Then on the other hand, I realize that you simply can't do that because you don't necessarily know who is around you and what they are doing.

That's correct. Let's say that I'm going out to the bar to have a few beers and hopefully meet a girl or two. I'll walk in, maneuver around the pool tables, approach the bar, and hopefully find a seat. The bartender walks over, I order the first beer, and try to get an idea of my surroundings. I can usually tell if someone is to my right or left because they'll obstruct nearby sounds. If there are a lot of people talking and the person isn't facing me, it'll be hard for me to tell that they're speaking. Let's assume their are two people, one on either side. At this point I know nothing about them. Are they men? women? Does the person look like they want to talk or are they totally involved in checking out everyone else in the room? Are they deeply involved in conversation? What's a good way of getting their attention? Tapping them on the shoulder can be a little problematic if you don't know exactly how they're positioned. (This sounds a little whiny and that's really not my intent.)

DoggPickle posted:

I think people don't talk to you out of the blue like that, because they don't want to be person number 6,000 who has just done that to you in one day. It's like trying to be cool in front of a celebrity.

I think it's a combination of that and the fact that some of the "before conversation" rituals don't work. They can't make eye contact to gauge interest--they actually have to talk.

DoggPickle posted:

4)Are there any sports that translate well to you? I like football but I can see how that would be nearly impossible to follow in a fun way without watching.

I'm not all that into sports, but that's more of a personal thing. At least with football, Some people can pick up enough information from what the announcer is saying.

DoggPickle posted:

I love tennis though, and I often listen to the matches without video and can follow along perfectly. I did play for a long time though, so I think my brain translates the audio quality of each hit and the other noises on the court to paint a pretty good picture of what is going on. The announcers often comment on each play as well. Are there any sports that you can enjoy listening to?

Sports where either whoever I'm with or an announcer is able to convey enough information so I can get an idea of what's happening, or where I can figure things out purely by sound, or a combination of the two.

DoggPickle posted:

Especially being blind from birth, it is fascinating what things you simply have no interest in at all.

What specifically made you think this? I'm as interested in your reactions and comments on the situations that I mention as I'm sure you are in my answers.

# ? Aug 21, 2007 02:00

Zachsta: Jun 13, 2007; by T. Fine

Have you ever been to a strip club? Where do you buy things like a cane or a dog harness? Have you ever been in a situation where your blindness saved the day for everyone else, like if you were in a basement and the power went out so it was pitch black, but you could find your way out just as easily? Do you wear sunglasses a lot? What do you do with your mail? I would imagine you pay all your bills online or over the phone, but do you just throw everything out or get someone to read it to you? Has anyone ever just completely embarrassed themselves, e.g. by asking "What are you, blind?!?!" or yelling at you for inadvertently touching something with a sign that says "do not touch"? Does your speech software sound like Stephen Hawking? Does it pronounce foreign languages correcty? Did you kick rear end at marco polo or pin the tail on the donkey as a kid?

# ? Aug 21, 2007 03:29

Elguapo: Jan 23, 2005

Do you think being blind makes you less likely to identify with a cliche, or scene (like punk, or emo, or rockabilly)?

# ? Aug 21, 2007 04:40

Indicatif: Apr 22, 2007; by Fragmaster

Do you turn on the lights when you're at home alone?

Do you ever get frustrated if you've misplaced or dropped something important and can't find it?

How do you tell time usually? When you wake up, are you ever concerned you've overslept?

Sorry if these have been answered before. Also, this is one of the most interesting ask/tell threads I've seen in a long time.

# ? Aug 21, 2007 07:40

Caffeinated Sloth: Apr 12, 2007; Grimey Drawer

Zachsta posted:

Have you ever been to a strip club?

No. I think they lose a lot of their appeal when you can't see the strippers.

Zachsta posted:

Where do you buy things like a cane or a dog harness?

You can buy canes online. Harnesses are purchased from whichever school the dog came from. Most schools try to ensure that only legitimate dogowners (or whatever the term is for schools where you don't own the dog outright) have harnesses.

Zachsta posted:

Have you ever been in a situation where your blindness saved the day for everyone else, like if you were in a basement and the power went out so it was pitch black, but you could find your way out just as easily?

I don't think it really saved the day, but it is nice to be able to get around during power outages without problems.

Zachsta posted:

Do you wear sunglasses a lot?

No. I have no sensitivity to light and I don't have issues with how my eyes look.

Zachsta posted:

What do you do with your mail? I would imagine you pay all your bills online or over the phone, but do you just throw everything out or get someone to read it to you?

I use a scanner and OCR software to scan everything that isn't obviously junkmail. I pay most bills using my bank's online Billpay system, and others (really only Cingular) I pay via phone.

Zachsta posted:

Has anyone ever just completely embarrassed themselves, e.g. by asking "What are you, blind?!?!" or yelling at you for inadvertently touching something with a sign that says "do not touch"?

I don't go around touching random things, especially in art galleries or other places likely to have "Do Not Touch" signs. I can't think of any such moments off the top of my head.

Zachsta posted:

Does your speech software sound like Stephen Hawking? Does it pronounce foreign languages correcty?

It's similar but a different product. I recorded a sample of it here. It has the capability of speaking several languages: American English, British English, Castilian Spanish, Latin American Spanish, French, French Canadian, German, Italian, Brazilian Portuguese, and Finnish.

Zachsta posted:

Did you kick rear end at marco polo or pin the tail on the donkey as a kid?

Marco Polo was always fun to play, especially as Marco, because I could usually just listen for breathing. Sometimes I'd try to tag someone without actually ever having to say Marco. Pin the tail on the donkey was a little more challenging but sort of doable if I could remember how far the place for the tail was from two edges of the picture.

Elguapo posted:

Do you think being blind makes you less likely to identify with a cliche, or scene (like punk, or emo, or rockabilly)?

I could identify with a scene based on the music or the tone of the
lyrics, but it would be more difficult to identify with the "look" of
the scene. I could ask people questions and get an idea of various
groups and which I might fit in with, but that hasn't been a big draw
for me.

Indicatif posted:

Do you turn on the lights when you're at home alone?

I'll turn them on if anyone is visiting, and if I'm expecting someone (to help them identify the apartment) but I leave them off if I'm the only one there. I'd probably forget to turn them off again and I'd be forever changing lightbulbs.

Indicatif posted:

Do you ever get frustrated if you've misplaced or dropped something important and can't find it?

I think most people do, and I'm no different. I try to find specific places for some things. For example I'll put my wallet and keys on one particular shelf so I can just grab them when I need to go somewhere.

Indicatif posted:

How do you tell time usually? When you wake up, are you ever concerned you've overslept?

I have a braille watch that I'll usually check first. I can also use my cellphone to check the time, and it doubles as my alarm clock.

Indicatif posted:

Sorry if these have been answered before. Also, this is one of the most interesting ask/tell threads I've seen in a long time.

Glad you've enjoyed the thread, and thanks for the questions.

# ? Aug 21, 2007 15:36

Munky_Magic: Jul 3, 2004

This is a fantastic and interesting thread - thanks for posting it.

I apologise if either of these questions have already been answered, but I have not had the chance to read the entire thread (I'm about to hit the sack).

Firstly, I would be interested in knowing how blind people go about learning things such as maths, which have a large visual component to them (both in aiding your memory when working out difficult or complex equations, and for geometry).

Furthermore, I know that my University has at least one blind student, and no doubt there are others. I was wondering what provisions Universities which do not directly cater to blind people take in order to aid them in their learning. For example, lecture slides would no longer be helpful, and I imagine this would really make learning a whole lot more difficult - especially with some of the lecturers I have encountered during my time at Uni!

Finally, I was wondering if you have a set procedure when assessing a new location which you are not familiar with. Do you need someone to point out any inherent dangers, or other major features of the place? Do you ever have problems with localization, whereby you forget where you currently are, or which direction you are facing in?

Thanks again for this fascinating read!

EDIT: I would also be knowing if there are any large gaps in technology (especially Computer technology) which you believe need specific attention for blind people. For example, specially designed user input systems or interfaces.

Munky_Magic fucked around with this message at 15:11 on Aug 22, 2007

# ? Aug 22, 2007 15:07

Yad Rock: Mar 1, 2005

You said you've spent some time in Washington D.C. Have you ever been to the FDR Memorial? It's very accessible (since the president was in a wheelchair for most of his life), and many of the exhibits have signs in Braille and three-dimensional graphics so you can feel around the place.

# ? Aug 23, 2007 01:20

Gravybong: Apr 24, 2007; Smokin' weed all day. All I do is smoke weed. Every day of my life it's all I do. I don't give a FUCK! Weed.

Hey blind goon buddy!

I'm kinda being an rear end though, since I'm only "legally" blind, which means I can still see all right. It's more severe nearsightedness and extremely limited color vision. I have a condition called achromatopsia, which is kind of rare, so I doubt you've heard of it.

Basically everything you said holds true for me, in a less extreme form. The only major setback I have is not being able to drive a car ever and asking people to read things for me from time to time. So, while I'm not in the same boat as you, I can sympathize.

Do people sometimes "forget" you're blind? This happens to me, although I can still see things.

EDIT: Oh god your name is Chris too it's a curse dammit

# ? Aug 23, 2007 06:31

d-d-d-doug: Jan 30, 2004; by Fistgrrl

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# ? Aug 23, 2007 15:07

Adolfo Castro: Aug 6, 2002; "I think rape is fucking hilarious."

Munky_Magic posted:

This is a fantastic and interesting thread - thanks for posting it.

I apologise if either of these questions have already been answered, but I have not had the chance to read the entire thread (I'm about to hit the sack).

Firstly, I would be interested in knowing how blind people go about learning things such as maths, which have a large visual component to them (both in aiding your memory when working out difficult or complex equations, and for geometry).

Furthermore, I know that my University has at least one blind student, and no doubt there are others. I was wondering what provisions Universities which do not directly cater to blind people take in order to aid them in their learning. For example, lecture slides would no longer be helpful, and I imagine this would really make learning a whole lot more difficult - especially with some of the lecturers I have encountered during my time at Uni!

Finally, I was wondering if you have a set procedure when assessing a new location which you are not familiar with. Do you need someone to point out any inherent dangers, or other major features of the place? Do you ever have problems with localization, whereby you forget where you currently are, or which direction you are facing in?

Thanks again for this fascinating read!

EDIT: I would also be knowing if there are any large gaps in technology (especially Computer technology) which you believe need specific attention for blind people. For example, specially designed user input systems or interfaces.

It has been covered, special books are printed with raised graphs.

# ? Aug 23, 2007 15:32

Caffeinated Sloth: Apr 12, 2007; Grimey Drawer

Munky_Magic posted:

Firstly, I would be interested in knowing how blind people go about learning things such as maths, which have a large visual component to them (both in aiding your memory when working out difficult or complex equations, and for geometry).

It depends on the individual. My math skills aren't what they could be, but I think that has more to do with aptitude (or lack thereof). I have friends who are also blind and who might as well have implanted equasion-solving software.

Munky_Magic posted:

Furthermore, I know that my University has at least one blind student, and no doubt there are others. I was wondering what provisions Universities which do not directly cater to blind people take in order to aid them in their learning. For example, lecture slides would no longer be helpful, and I imagine this would really make learning a whole lot more difficult - especially with some of the lecturers I have encountered during my time at Uni!

Universities in the U.S. must comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) and part of the Rehabilitation act. Those pieces sort of spell out what is required, and universities meet those requirements to varying degrees. One of the things they often do is converting handouts and textbooks into a more usable (usually etext) format. A small university or one that hasn't experienced any demand is unlikely to have a good setup for this process. Other universities can cut, scan, rebind, and return a book (with etext) in a couple days. I found that dealing with my professors individually was often the easiest process. They almost all used Powerpoint for their slides, and the files were either made available to all students or I could get them to email them to me in advance of the lectures.

Munky_Magic posted:

Finally, I was wondering if you have a set procedure when assessing a new location which you are not familiar with. Do you need someone to point out any inherent dangers, or other major features of the place? Do you ever have problems with localization, whereby you forget where you currently are, or which direction you are facing in?

I usually have some idea of where I'm going, and have at least asked for directions from someone or otherwise know how to identify where I'm going. If I don't know the area well I'll walk a bit more slowly to be sure that I'll have time to react to things. It's helpful to know about inherent dangers ahead of time, but many things are very obvious and I could deal with them without prior knowledge. For example most construction sites have barricades or at least loud machinery. If I'm new to a large area I'll sometimes take notes on the names and order of streets, landmarks that I'm likely to find as I'm traveling, and things like that. I can then refer to these notes if I get turned around. My sense of north/south/east/west is terrible--I have no idea of what direction I'm facing as I'm sitting here typing this, but if I know that a certain street runs east/west and that since a particular building is on my left I'm traveling east, I can figure out other directions from that information.

Munky_Magic posted:

EDIT: I would also be knowing if there are any large gaps in technology (especially Computer technology) which you believe need specific attention for blind people. For example, specially designed user input systems or interfaces.

IMO the biggest problem in terms of web access right now is CAPTCHAs that only employ visual tests. Touch screens are also almost impossible to use without being able to see the screen. The interfaces of some other devices are problematic. For example, could you program your DVR to record a show without being able to look at the screen?

Slime Dad posted:

You said you've spent some time in Washington D.C. Have you ever been to the FDR Memorial? It's very accessible (since the president was in a wheelchair for most of his life), and many of the exhibits have signs in Braille and three-dimensional graphics so you can feel around the place.

Unfortunately I didn't spend as much time visiting the monuments and museums as I probably should have. I'll have to keep the FDR Memorial in mind if I return.

SeraphSlaughter posted:

I'm kinda being an rear end though, since I'm only "legally" blind, which means I can still see all right. It's more severe nearsightedness and extremely limited color vision. I have a condition called achromatopsia, which is kind of rare, so I doubt you've heard of it.

Wikipedia to the rescue.

SeraphSlaughter posted:

Basically everything you said holds true for me, in a less extreme form. The only major setback I have is not being able to drive a car ever and asking people to read things for me from time to time. So, while I'm not in the same boat as you, I can sympathize.

What things can you not read? Is it only things that are a certain distance away or is the type of print an issue?

SeraphSlaughter posted:

Do people sometimes "forget" you're blind? This happens to me, although I can still see things.

People that I'm around a lot seem to, in some situations. I take this as more of a compliment than anything. In a way they've gotten past the blindness and view me as just another person, which is something that a lot of people seem to have issues with.

SeraphSlaughter posted:

EDIT: Oh god your name is Chris too it's a curse dammit

Oh for a less common name. It's not fun to be walking somewhere, hear someone yell "Chris! Chris!", turn in their direction to reply, and realize that they're really talking to some other Chris.

# ? Aug 23, 2007 15:40

Indoor Plumbing: Aug 3, 2004

Caffeinated Sloth posted:

It's similar but a different product. I recorded a sample of it here. It has the capability of speaking several languages: American English, British English, Castilian Spanish, Latin American Spanish, French, French Canadian, German, Italian, Brazilian Portuguese, and Finnish.

Holy loving poo poo, at your normal listening speed I can't understand a word.

# ? Aug 23, 2007 15:43

Caffeinated Sloth: Apr 12, 2007; Grimey Drawer

d-d-d-doug posted:

Hello blind goon. I too am blind. My name is Jennifer. I am a blind girl goon. I am alone and I would like to meet You in person. Will you be my boy friend. I hope that we can meet at the VOICE SOFTWARE MALFUNCTION.

Hello Jennifer,

No. Also, Screen reading software only raises the pitch of capitalized letters.

Not so sincerely,
Caffeinated Sloth

P.S. Say hi to Todd Forklift when you get the chance.

# ? Aug 23, 2007 17:43

DoggPickle: Jan 16, 2004; LAFFO

Wow I looked up the websites you posted for deaf and blind statistics and they were really shocking. There are 1.3 million legally blind people in the U.S. but only somewhere between 400,000 & 800,000 totally deaf people (out of 20 million with hearing problems).

I would have expected a lot more deaf than blind, because of their vastly higher visibility. Maybe the social tendencies and organization that the deaf are more prone too is because depending on what sense you are missing, you have a vastly different view and idea of the world.

Bar question:
In a rather noisy location like a bar or restaurant, is it out of bounds to tap YOU on the leg or shoulder to get your attention, or would you think that was kind of rude and forward? I wouldn't want to stand there trying to politely say "excuse me", "excuse me" trying to get you to figure out I am talking to you verses the other 30 people in the bar.

Oh also another advantage I guess for deaf people.. I have seen deaf people at bars and clubs before, dancing rhythmically to the music because they can still feel the vibrations caused by the bass. There is no equivalent to sight is there? Well, I guess you can certainly turn your face toward the sun because you can feel the heat that comes with the light, but I can't think of anything else.

Haha I just thought of something. I bet you probably aren't a great dancer. Anything besides partner dancing would be incredibly hard to pick up, I would think! Do you ever get the impression that any of your body movements might look odd to the rest of us, since we have so much more visual data to have learned from over the years? I mean, you have heard deaf people who learned to talk without being able to hear themselves. Do you ever worry or wonder if your body language or movement is the equivalent? (sort of alien or "off")?

Sorry about all the deaf stuff. Maybe it's just because I have lived 28 years nearish Gaullaudet University. Maybe NoVA/DC area is some sort of deaf mecha

. I honestly can't recall the last blind person I met though.

# ? Aug 23, 2007 20:56

Caffeinated Sloth: Apr 12, 2007; Grimey Drawer

DoggPickle posted:

Wow I looked up the websites you posted for deaf and blind statistics and they were really shocking. There are 1.3 million legally blind people in the U.S. but only somewhere between 400,000 & 800,000 totally deaf people (out of 20 million with hearing problems).

I'd compare the number of totally deaf people to the number of totally blind people, and the number of "hard of hearing" (or at least not totally deaf) to the number who are legally blind. I didn't actually read over all the statistics so I can't comment on those numbers.

DoggPickle posted:

I would have expected a lot more deaf than blind, because of their vastly higher visibility. Maybe the social tendencies and organization that the deaf are more prone too is because depending on what sense you are missing, you have a vastly different view and idea of the world.

I think you're also in a very deaf-centric area, given your proximity to Gallaudet.

DoggPickle posted:

In a rather noisy location like a bar or restaurant, is it out of bounds to tap YOU on the leg or shoulder to get your attention, or would you think that was kind of rude and forward? I wouldn't want to stand there trying to politely say "excuse me", "excuse me" trying to get you to figure out I am talking to you verses the other 30 people in the bar.

Personally I think that's a great way of getting my attention and you'd automatically get a few points for thinking of it. Of course other people may differ, but hopefully those people won't be out trying to be social.

DoggPickle posted:

Oh also another advantage I guess for deaf people.. I have seen deaf people at bars and clubs before, dancing rhythmically to the music because they can still feel the vibrations caused by the bass. There is no equivalent to sight is there? Well, I guess you can certainly turn your face toward the sun because you can feel the heat that comes with the light, but I can't think of anything else.

Hmm, that's an interesting thing to think about. I can't think of anything either.

DoggPickle posted:

Haha I just thought of something. I bet you probably aren't a great dancer. Anything besides partner dancing would be incredibly hard to pick up, I would think! Do you ever get the impression that any of your body movements might look odd to the rest of us, since we have so much more visual data to have learned from over the years? I mean, you have heard deaf people who learned to talk without being able to hear themselves. Do you ever worry or wonder if your body language or movement is the equivalent? (sort of alien or "off")?

Partner dancing is pretty easy because you can easily monitor the movements of your partner and react to them. With solo dancing, you need to be in sync with other dancers, but the only way to tell when that's not happening is by bumping into them--not so fun. I could probably learn given someone with enough patience who was observant. I have a slight interest in doing so, and haven't found that person, so I feel pretty self conshous. As for other body language, it's pretty similar. I've picked up whatever I know now by asking questions of others but I can't refine through observation of others. I'm a lot more interested in perfecting this, or at least determining where I stand. The trick is in finding honest and trustworthy feedback, since in a sense I'm giving someone a lot of influence over the image that I project.

DoggPickle posted:

Sorry about all the deaf stuff. Maybe it's just because I have lived 28 years nearish Gaullaudet University. Maybe NoVA/DC area is some sort of deaf mecha . I honestly can't recall the last blind person I met though.

I'd imagine that you would see a few on the metro, especially in the busier transfer stations.

# ? Aug 23, 2007 21:54

tony police: Sep 22, 2006

This may sound like a weird question, but can you feel differences in colors? Like, if you were holding two pieces of paper, of two different colours, could you tell they are different?

The reason I ask is that I talked to my mom (who is a pharamacist) about blindness and some of the weirder stuff she has come across; she told me she has met people who could feel a difference in colours. I'm not sure if its just bs, but if its true thats amazing.

# ? Aug 23, 2007 22:07

Caffeinated Sloth: Apr 12, 2007; Grimey Drawer

Dash O Pepper posted:

This may sound like a weird question, but can you feel differences in colors? Like, if you were holding two pieces of paper, of two different colours, could you tell they are different?

The reason I ask is that I talked to my mom (who is a pharamacist) about blindness and some of the weirder stuff she has come across; she told me she has met people who could feel a difference in colours. I'm not sure if its just bs, but if its true thats amazing.

I can't personally do this, and I haven't heard of anyone who can.

# ? Aug 23, 2007 22:18

glorodin: May 26, 2003; Jake Busey For President

Dash O Pepper posted:

This may sound like a weird question, but can you feel differences in colors? Like, if you were holding two pieces of paper, of two different colours, could you tell they are different?

The reason I ask is that I talked to my mom (who is a pharamacist) about blindness and some of the weirder stuff she has come across; she told me she has met people who could feel a difference in colours. I'm not sure if its just bs, but if its true thats amazing.

There's no way that's right. The person might have had a visual agnosia... the brain sends visual information and a "there's visual information present" signal along different pathways, so you can run into people with brain damage who think they can see just fine but are actually completely blind, and, conversely, people who can see perfectly but are convinced they can't see a thing. I'd suspect if she met such a person, it'd be a case like that, there's absolutely no mechanism for color perception otherwise.

Also, Caffeinated Sloth, thanks for this post. Its been really interesting reading.

# ? Aug 23, 2007 22:42

Gravybong: Apr 24, 2007; Smokin' weed all day. All I do is smoke weed. Every day of my life it's all I do. I don't give a FUCK! Weed.

Caffeinated Sloth posted:

What things can you not read? Is it only things that are a certain distance away or is the type of print an issue?

Print size. In order to read a book of normal typeface (something like 12 point font) it needs to be no less than six inches from my face. The bigger the font, the better I can read farther away. On the computer I'm normally about six to eight inches away from the screen, without glasses. I find it easier to read without glasses, as I get headaches if I read with them for some reason. Because of this, I have not taken one single note written on a board in school. I rarely take notes, and only if they are said aloud. This does not impede me as I am on full scholarship to a state school for Music (I am the stereotype, I suppose)

Caffeinated Sloth posted:

People that I'm around a lot seem to, in some situations. I take this as more of a compliment than anything. In a way they've gotten past the blindness and view me as just another person, which is something that a lot of people seem to have issues with.

I take it the exact same way.

# ? Aug 24, 2007 06:41

skynet: May 25, 2004; Execute? [Y/N] _

On a girl, rear end or tits?

# ? Aug 24, 2007 13:59

Caffeinated Sloth: Apr 12, 2007; Grimey Drawer

skynet posted:

On a girl, rear end or tits?

They can each be lots of fun. It really depends on the individual girl. I'm more into the pleasurable things that I can do with them rather than just staring at them, obviously.

# ? Aug 24, 2007 15:51

phydeaux: Jul 29, 2003; Nose Army. Jigsaw. Smellsign.

Caffeinated Sloth posted:

Thanks for the question. I've had people describe the concept, and their descriptions make sense,but it seems a little strange since I haven't actually observed it. I can remember being yunger and assuming that, if something was in someone's line of sight and within a certain distance, they could make out every detail.

To help explain perspective and intensity you can sort of compare it to sound. Something that is extremely bright will partially or completely blind a sighted person for a brief period of time; similarly, very loud music for example will be partially unintelligible as your ears compress and overload. As you move away from either source the intensity diminishes from your perspective. If you move farther away you can still perceive either source but detail will begin to smear and be lost - with sound, it also appears quieter, with vision, smaller. And obviously, once you move far enough away the source effectively disappears. Hope that helps....

# ? Aug 24, 2007 16:43

Caffeinated Sloth: Apr 12, 2007; Grimey Drawer

phydeaux posted:

To help explain perspective and intensity you can sort of compare it to sound. Something that is extremely bright will partially or completely blind a sighted person for a brief period of time; similarly, very loud music for example will be partially unintelligible as your ears compress and overload. As you move away from either source the intensity diminishes from your perspective. If you move farther away you can still perceive either source but detail will begin to smear and be lost - with sound, it also appears quieter, with vision, smaller. And obviously, once you move far enough away the source effectively disappears. Hope that helps....

It does. Thanks.

# ? Aug 24, 2007 17:32

pintle: Aug 3, 2007; to err is human, dear fez

I was wondering how you establish the structure of objects in your mind. There are many things that we're likely never to encounter in person, but given our imagination, we can simulate the feeling. Most of our simulations are affected by what we see; say we see a fish and our mind tells us that it's slippery and wet. We can guess the size, it's weight and so on.
How do you handle getting a grip on the structure of things like satellites, the sphinx, penguins, a sea horse? Do you rely on descriptions and if so, you must be a better judge than any of us of what exactly a good description is. Defining a flower as pretty is hardly useful. How do such terms affect your imagination?

P.S: One of the best A/T threads ever :banjo:

# ? Aug 24, 2007 23:30

jyrka: Jan 21, 2005; Potato Count: 2 small potatoes

Ever played pinball?

# ? Aug 25, 2007 23:26

Huns: Apr 27, 2004; True Grit

The brain is a very diverse organ, and literally rewires itself all the time. Right now, some group of cells in your brain is processing the sensory input from your left thumbtip. In five minutes, this group of cells will likely have disassociated from one another and started working on something else. Groups of neurons wire up, handle some task, and then "tear down" constantly.

In a recent experiment, a brain interface was tapped into the monkey of a chimpanzee. The chimp was given a joystick and discovered it could move a cursor around on a screen with the joystick. While it was doing this, the brain interface was recording neural firing patterns. Eventually the joystick was disconnected. The chimp kept moving the cursor on the screen through the brain interface without knowing it. After some time, he realized the joystick was ineffective, put it down, and carried on moving the cursor with his mind.

If CS were to gain a working pair of eyes and optical nerves, I have no doubt his brain would figure out something to do with the data. He might not see the world in quite the same way as a person who grew up with it (experience being filtered through past memory and all), but if he could distinguish light from dark, his brain could probably learn.

Given the exponential rate of growth of technology, I don't doubt that some options along these lines will be available within CS' lifetime.

Wider than the Sky is pretty good on the subject of how the brain functions.

# ? Aug 27, 2007 02:10

D14BL0: Dec 6, 2006; WE STAND AT THE DOOR

I don't know if this has been asked or not. If so, skip this question and I'll know to dig around the thread a bit.

My question is: Are you 100% blind? As in no visual reception at all? Or can you actually see differences in lighting and stuff?

# ? Aug 29, 2007 03:45

M E A T Y: May 2, 2005; so secure

Caffeinated Sloth posted:

It does. Thanks.

Oh\\\\
\\\whoops

# ? Aug 29, 2007 08:27

Midnight Bruiser: Sep 14, 2005; by Ozma

I'll try to formulate this right, just bear with me. The beauty of women. Is there a general difference in behavior between women that others say are pretty, and women that aren't pretty. What I'm asking is, can you tell, just by interacting with a female, if she's attractive? The girls you like most, in a conversation and otherwise, are they attractive or not, by general consensus, of course provided that you didn't know that in advance?

# ? Aug 29, 2007 09:23

Caffeinated Sloth: Apr 12, 2007; Grimey Drawer

Sorry for the delay. Anyway, here are some answers.

pintle posted:

I was wondering how you establish the structure of objects in your mind. There are many things that we're likely never to encounter in person, but given our imagination, we can simulate the feeling. Most of our simulations are affected by what we see; say we see a fish and our mind tells us that it's slippery and wet. We can guess the size, it's weight and so on.
How do you handle getting a grip on the structure of things like satellites, the sphinx, penguins, a sea horse? Do you rely on descriptions and if so, you must be a better judge than any of us of what exactly a good description is. Defining a flower as pretty is hardly useful. How do such terms affect your imagination?

I read lots of books when I was younger and have used them to supplement my knowledge of things. Even so, things that I haven't actually examined by touch are sort of indistinct. I've held a fish, and examined it, so I can picture things like the size and shape of the body, the difference between types of scales, etc. With objects that I haven't actually examined, what comes to mind is more a definition rather than a picture of an object. I've gotten a chance to see scale models of some things, such as bridges, and they are somewhat helpful in picturing the larger object.

In my case, a good description includes measurements or comparisons to other familiar objects so that I can get a sense of size and shape. It's also interesting to get someone's impressions on seeing something.

jyrka posted:

Ever played pinball?

Yes. It's interesting in a "move the flippers and see what interesting sounds result" kind of way. That's missing out on a lot of the purpose of the game though.

Huns posted:

The brain is amazing. Here's why.

Very interesting. I won't be holding my breath but it's interesting to think about.

D14BL0 posted:

My question is: Are you 100% blind? As in no visual reception at all? Or can you actually see differences in lighting and stuff?

This is covered pretty early in the thread, probably on the first couple pages. In short, I could see light at one time, but am now totally blind.

Midnight Bruiser posted:

I'll try to formulate this right, just bear with me. The beauty of women. Is there a general difference in behavior between women that others say are pretty, and women that aren't pretty. What I'm asking is, can you tell, just by interacting with a female, if she's attractive? The girls you like most, in a conversation and otherwise, are they attractive or not, by general consensus, of course provided that you didn't know that in advance?

My guess is that, since I'm using a different set of qualities (or at least in a different order of preference) to determine attractiveness, there would be differing results. It would be interesting to find out though. Since I'm going mainly on things I can sense, including speech, it takes a while to form an opinion.

As far as behavior, I'd guess that some women who aren't generally viewed as being pretty will react differently to society in general than those who are viewed as being pretty. I won't pick up on the visuals, but I may pick up on the attitude or actions and those may influence my views on attractiveness.

Feel free to ask for clarification if this doesn't make sense. It's an interesting question.

# ? Aug 31, 2007 06:23

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# ? Apr 19, 2024 18:58

meatcookie: Jun 2, 2007

Sloth, absolutely awesome thread, very interesting.
A couple of things have occurred to me after reading the thread in one sitting.
Have you ever considered taking martial arts, such as judo or aikido (both being grapples, holds, joint locks, throws, etc. as opposed to pure punching and kicking)?

I understand that your eyes themselves are nonfunctional, but how about your optic nerve? I ask because of a phenomena I've experienced and always wondered about in relation to others, namely: when I'm tired and have some eyestrain (from reading or the computer) I'll rub my eyes (eyes closed obviously). This has the side effect of putting pressure on the optic nerve which results in some semi-psychedelic visual patterns, usually checkerboard patterns or bursts of "light" and over the years I've often idly wondered if some blind folks get the same thing. (Granted, I've also wondered what our evolutionary precursors saw but that's neither here nor there).

Found your perception of the sky (mostly empty) to be interesting and pretty accurate. Barring the occasional solid objects (aircraft, birds, etc) and localised, variable-density patches of fog (clouds) that's about it. That, however, leads me to wonder what you think of fog. I'd imagine it would be somewhat confusing given its tendency to strongly but subtly distort sound. To be fair, it also distorts the visual aspect, and seeing is just hearing with your eyes.

Also, count me in for the 'wondering how you would perceive LSD' crowd. If you ever do it, though, I'd strongly advise having someone you both trust and is experienced themselves around as a trip sitter.

semi-edit: re: people touching your dog... I think I'd find that just as irritating as if someone were to walk up and start touching my eyeballs.

Anyhow, excellent thread, thanks again.

meatcookie fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Aug 31, 2007

# ? Aug 31, 2007 23:50

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > Ask me about Blindness

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