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cavefish
Mar 4, 2002

by Y Kant Ozma Post


Alright, its pretty obvious that the standard routine around here is the 5x5. That's fine, its a good routine for building a base level of strength and learning the compound lifts that build strength and size. All fine and good. However Bill Starr created that routine for football players, not bodybuilders. So if you want to be built like a fridge (a very strong fridge), thats cool.

But if you lift for aesthetics like most people, you'll probably want to switch things up every so often and target certain muscle groups for growth. This is where the traditional 5x5 seems to fall short. Sure you can modify it yourself and add a few things, but that hardly makes it ideal for "bodybuilding." For maximum hypertrophy you need a different style of training. Plus it never hurts to change things up, say 12 weeks of 5x5 and 12 weeks of volume work. Then you can go back to the 5x5 or a powerlifting style routine and build your strength and be able to use heavier weights for higher reps when you return to the volume.

This is not my original routine, it was written by a friend of mine who is an NPC bodybuilder for another forum I moderate so I'm re-posting it here. It may seem like a lot but its not that extreme, its basic entry level stuff even for natural bodybuilders. It's not easy but certainly not impossible to finish and your body will adapt after a few weeks. Another important thing to remember is that nothing is set in stone here so you don't have to follow it to the letter, its just a base/template for you to go off of. As you become more experienced and learn to listen to your body you can play with the exercise selection and change things around and add things like drop sets.

MONDAY - Legs
4 sets leg extension 10-15reps (keep it light, this is just to get blood in the legs)
4 sets squat 6-10 reps
3 sets leg press 10-12 reps
4 sets leg curl 10-12 reps
3 sets stiff legged deadlift or walking lunges (hamstring or quad, pick one and alternate every so often or whichever you think needs more work)

TUESDAY - Chest
4 sets incline DB or barbell bench 8-12 reps
3 sets flat DB or barbell bench 8-12 reps
3 sets DB fly or machine fly (pec deck) 12-15 reps, focus on squeezing at the top
2 sets weighted dips

WED OFF

THURSDAY - back
4 sets bodyweight pullups: up to 15 reps (add weight if 4x15 is too easy)
4 sets bent over row barbell or DB row 8-12 reps
3 sets front pulldown, wide or narrow (switch it up) 8-10 reps
3 sets cable row 6-10 reps
Behind the head pulldowns(yeah they're bad blah blah blah): 2 sets 15 reps Medium easy weight...just squeeze.

FRIDAY - shoulders/arms
3 sets DB press or front military 8-10 reps
3 sets side laterals 10-12 reps
3 sets rear lateral machine or DB 10-12 reps
6 sets shrugs behind the back for 3 sets and to the front for 3

Triceps
3 sets 10-15 rope pushdown
3 sets skullcrushers or DB extensions 6-10 reps
3 sets reversed push down (palms facing) 8-10 reps

Biceps
3 sets barbell curl or e-z curl bar 8-12 reps
3 sets preacher machine or db/barbell 8-12 reps
2 sets hammer curl db or rope 10-15 reps
wrist curls 13-20 reps 2 sets

-Do abs on Monday and Thursday

-Do calves Tuesday and Friday.

-KEEP THE REST INTERVALS SHORT. 30-60 seconds between sets, no more. This is very important as it will fatigue the hell out of your muscles AND improve your conditioning.

-Alternate squats with deadlifts every week or two weeks if you want.

-Do your cardio normally and adjust depending on whether you're bulking or cutting.

-If you want to do this in a 3 day split, you can go chest/back, legs, shoulders/arms.

I now eagerly await your cries of TOO MUCH ISOLATION and OH GOD WHERE ARE THE DEADLIFTS. One nice thing is this allows for variation in the number of reps and such you do. If you want to go heavy one week you can do sets of 6, if you want to lighten it up and go for a better pump you can go 12-15. The most important thing for growth is forcing as much as blood as possible into the muscle. Just don't go under 6 reps. You'll still build plenty of strength even though this is not designed for strength or athletic purposes.

cavefish fucked around with this message at May 31, 2007 around 21:10

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Piss Man 94
Jun 11, 2003


gonna give this a shot starting NOW. thanks for posting it.

LifeSpan-Void
Jul 3, 2006

I Could Spend A Million Years In Your Arms

I think it is important to note that for people who are just beginning to train for hypertrophy, that it is important to do dumbell exercises as well as barbell exercises to prevent any major symmetry issues from occurring - and to only lift as heavy as your weaker arm at that. Too often people will go hell for leather on say, curls with their stronger arm only to then wonder why they have a lagging bicep on the other side. The rationale behind including dumbells in your routine is to prevent your stronger arm carrying your weaker one in any barbell movement such as a curl or a french press/skullcrusher etc.

Carnivean said on Nov 13, 2007 19:41: "You are still a sad, stupid piece of poo poo."

LifeSpan-Void fucked around with this message at May 29, 2007 around 21:23

cavefish
Mar 4, 2002

by Y Kant Ozma Post


It's also important to have some base level of strength before starting something like this. If you're benching 65lbs and squatting 120, I'd keep doing the 5x5 for a while.

I just know a lot of people here have been doing the 5x5 for quite a while and want to switch things up. An important part of training is keeping things fresh so you can keep your body guessing and also so you don't get totally bored and start losing motivation.

cavefish fucked around with this message at May 29, 2007 around 21:30

Matlock Birthmark
Sep 24, 2005

LIGHT
YOURSELVES ON

FIRE


Ya. I was reading this and thinking how it definitely wasn't for someone who is lifting for body weight purposes.

I'll stick with the 5x5. And maybe approach this in a year or something.

Thanks for the template though, Good information to keep in mind.

oystertoadfish
Jun 16, 2003



where would you draw the line for the "base level of strength" before the 5x5 gets dumb*?

i'm not asking for me, i know i'm not there yet, just curious what you'd say because i like learning information and stuff

but yeah, thanks for posting this, this is really the only place i get information about lifting and i really wouldn't want it to become a one-trick pony 5x5-only forum, so i appreciate you making the effort to publicize other good stuff around here

*bad word choice but y'all know what i mean

oystertoadfish fucked around with this message at May 29, 2007 around 21:36

cavefish
Mar 4, 2002

by Y Kant Ozma Post


I think most people should be able to squat and deadlift at least 300-400lbs after being on the 5x5 for a while if they work at it. Especially since the 5x5 is targeted at increasing those lifts.

Bench is gonna vary more from person to person so I'd guess around 200lbs maybe?

sean10mm
Jun 29, 2005

Dispensing unwanted fitness advice since 2005. P.S. Squat more! BEEFCAKE!!!

cavefish posted:

I think most people should be able to squat and deadlift at least 300-400lbs after being on the 5x5 for a while if they work at it. Especially since the 5x5 is targeted at increasing those lifts.

Bench is gonna vary more from person to person so I'd guess around 200lbs maybe?

I'd assume it depends a lot on your height/weight really. And if you're a man or woman.

Seriously, these strength standards seem like a reasonable place to start.

"Intermediate" is a normal person doing a good strength program for up to 2 years, so that seems like a reasonable guideline. For a 181lb person that translates to around 135lb military press, 200lb bench, 270lb squat and 315 pound deadlift. Those are 1 rep maxes, by the way, so you might want to use the handy 1 rep max calculator.

sean10mm
Jun 29, 2005

Dispensing unwanted fitness advice since 2005. P.S. Squat more! BEEFCAKE!!!

cavefish posted:

I now eagerly await your cries of TOO MUCH ISOLATION and OH GOD WHERE ARE THE DEADLIFTS.

Not from me you won't.

All the "do 5x5/Starting Strength/isolation is for fags" advice is based on getting total beginners up to speed. It starts sounding like a dogma because almost all the discussions are prompted by beginners with ignorant ideas about how to get into shape, so you hear the same thing over and over.

But it has become kind of cultish.

Piss Man 94
Jun 11, 2003


cavefish posted:

I think most people should be able to squat and deadlift at least 300-400lbs after being on the 5x5 for a while if they work at it. Especially since the 5x5 is targeted at increasing those lifts.

Bench is gonna vary more from person to person so I'd guess around 200lbs maybe?

i'm nowhere near those numbers except on DL, but i have been thinking about switching to something like this for a while now. i'm sure i will be absolutely destroyed after the first week. can't wait

Quarterly Prophet
Nov 9, 2005

by angerbeet


sean10mm posted:

Not from me you won't.

All the "do 5x5/Starting Strength/isolation is for fags" advice is based on getting total beginners up to speed. It starts sounding like a dogma because almost all the discussions are prompted by beginners with ignorant ideas about how to get into shape, so you hear the same thing over and over.

But it has become kind of cultish.

More compound lifts for the compound lifts God!

Renwo
Dec 19, 2005


cavefish posted:

I think most people should be able to squat and deadlift at least 300-400lbs after being on the 5x5 for a while if they work at it. Especially since the 5x5 is targeted at increasing those lifts.

Bench is gonna vary more from person to person so I'd guess around 200lbs maybe?



How about body weight multipliers. Question, why isn't there any ab isolation in that routine and lastly, does the BBB lean towards bodybuilding?

Melted
May 8, 2003

check 1-2

Renwo posted:

How about body weight multipliers. Question, why isn't there any ab isolation in that routine and lastly, does the BBB lean towards bodybuilding?

quote:

Do abs on Monday and Thursday

It's up to you to figure out what works for your abs. Shouldn't be too hard.

Walter
Jul 3, 2003

We think they're great. In a grand, mystical, neopolitical sense, these guys have a real message in their music. They don't, however, have neat names like me and Bono.

I've been using a program/workout schedule that Alfalfa passed on to me back several months ago when I PMed him to ask what the hell he was doing, since he was huge.

It's been pretty effective, but I know for a fact I'm not growing as fast as I probably could be, even with the 3000-3500 calories per day (w/around 200 g protein) per day.

I may try your OP routine, cavefish. I actually like that it lacks deadlifts - my back is still kind of hosed up, and I've been doing trap-bar deadlifts so that I didn't completely dodge a lift with "dead" in it (so to speak).

But that one looks pretty decent, and I was planning on changing my routine at the beginning of June anyway.

Carnivean
Feb 14, 2004

by Peatpot


cavefish posted:

OH GOD WHERE ARE THE DEADLIFTS.

Just a quick question: What is the rationale behind no deadlifts? Is it because it's assumed that people doing this routine are at the point where deadlifting often is too taxing?

Pilsner
Nov 23, 2002



One question: Do you ramp the weights like in 5x5? Or how do you determine which weight to use? Just increase ad hoc every week?

TLG James
Jun 5, 2000

Questing ain't easy


I thought the line was, but don't nobody want to lift no heavy rear end weights.

Zyklon B Zombie
Feb 13, 2005

Circling Overland

If my main goal was to just increase my power lifts, would you recommend still doing some body building/hypertrophy training? Has the extra mass overall helped you when you went back to your power lifting training?

LifeSpan-Void
Jul 3, 2006

I Could Spend A Million Years In Your Arms

Carnivean posted:

Just a quick question: What is the rationale behind no deadlifts? Is it because it's assumed that people doing this routine are at the point where deadlifting often is too taxing?

It is more a preference thing with bodybuilders really - There are those who feel that deadlifting doesn't add much to their overall bulk and there are those who swear by it. I don't see why you can't rejig the schedule that cavefish posted to include a regular deadlifting day in the split. I never used to do deads until recently, and at first I only added them because I was scared of tearing my lat again and wanted more core strength. Now I do them on the same day as squats. I like to call this the "nausea day".

Carnivean said on Nov 13, 2007 19:41: "You are still a sad, stupid piece of poo poo."

andrewhimself
Mar 12, 2005


TLG James posted:

I thought the line was, but don't nobody want to lift no heavy rear end weights.

That too. But I think I remember Ronnie Coleman saying the bodybuilder line.

Deathy McDeath
Apr 28, 2002

Always hungry.
Always watching.
Chowdown


Its about time something like this got posted! 5x5 and all that jazz works for some people, but after a while that stuff gets real old. Many on here will decry bodyweight splits, but for aesthetics, thats really the way to go. Not only that, but isolation does have its purpose. Not all of us here are just starting out. Quick question though, where does biceps and triceps fall in there? I would assume Saturday and Sunday, but you didnt specify.

LifeSpan-Void
Jul 3, 2006

I Could Spend A Million Years In Your Arms

Friday

Carnivean said on Nov 13, 2007 19:41: "You are still a sad, stupid piece of poo poo."

Word
Jan 25, 2003



Awesome, thanks for this. I've been doing the 5x5 for a couple of months now, but always figured that it wouldn't really get you the aesthetic look everyone goes for. I'm sticking with it for a while still, but I've saved this for possible future use. I also like the 4 day a week workout, something I really wish I could do with the 5x5.

I'm almost an intermediate according to that exrx standards, but I certainly don't feel like anything but a novice so I'm going to keep doing the 5x5 for a few more months so I can get really strong (and actually do 15 bodyweight pullups) before switching up.

psychicattack
Mar 22, 2003

Ask me why I don't punctuate the last sentence of my post

Sorry if this is the wrong question in the wrong thread, but I'll ask anyway. I'm female, I'm 38 and I'm lifting weights to lose weight and keep strong in my old age. Should I be doing a more varied routine than the 5x5 (been doing it for a few months), like outlined here? I know I can't get big so I'm not looking for that, but obviously I'd like a lot of gorgeous muscle and less blub.

sean10mm
Jun 29, 2005

Dispensing unwanted fitness advice since 2005. P.S. Squat more! BEEFCAKE!!!

psychicattack posted:

Sorry if this is the wrong question in the wrong thread, but I'll ask anyway. I'm female, I'm 38 and I'm lifting weights to lose weight and keep strong in my old age. Should I be doing a more varied routine than the 5x5 (been doing it for a few months), like outlined here? I know I can't get big so I'm not looking for that, but obviously I'd like a lot of gorgeous muscle and less blub.

I'd say probably not. Where do you fall on the exrx strength standards for women? The same rules probably apply - if you haven't built up a foundation with the compound lifts, you probably aren't ready to move up to some high volume routine like that.

psychicattack
Mar 22, 2003

Ask me why I don't punctuate the last sentence of my post

sean10mm posted:

I'd say probably not. Where do you fall on the exrx strength standards for women? The same rules probably apply - if you haven't built up a foundation with the compound lifts, you probably aren't ready to move up to some high volume routine like that.

I'm at the novice level at best according to that link, so I'm relieved I can keep doing my same routine. Thanks!

Polynomial
Mar 23, 2005

Look, I'm a liberal guy, voting for Obama, yada yada.


psychicattack: How long have you been doing the 5x5, by the way?

SenSupafly
May 9, 2003

by Fragmaster


I'm actually glad I STARTED with a routine that closely resembled this one (minus the leg work) because it was my upper body strength that was severely lacking and my legs were already built up from years of playing ice hockey. I would have been toppling over doing squats and ripping my arms out of their sockets doing deadlifts otherwise Just started the 5x5 last three weeks but I'll be switching between the two (types of workouts) every 6 months or so from now on.

Here's the way I did my weights: I started out extremely light because I was weak as poo poo but I would keep very close track of the weights I lifted on a spreadsheet on a piece of paper and my sets/weights would look like one of these for example

Dumbbell bench 60 (three sets of 60)
Dumbbell bench 60+ (two sets of 60 followed by one set of 65)
Dumbbell bench 60++ (one set of 60 followed by two sets of 65)

And I would aim for failure on the third set somewhere between 8-12 reps. If I made it the entire way with 60 on one day, I'd go to 60+ the next week and see how that worked out. A lot of minor tweaking on every lift just to make sure I was giving everything I had.

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This thread brought to you by a tremendous dickhead!

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005


If I'm trying to cut bodyfat, but conserve as much muscle as possible, would it be a better idea to focus on a routine with more full body movements like the 5x5, or a body builder routine styled one such as this?

MrSteel
Jun 19, 2004


Hmm...Normally, I would look at that training schedule and dismiss it as being way too much for a non-steroided out human to do. This time though, I'm going to try it out for myself. We'll see how far this takes me.

Fenarisk
Oct 26, 2005



I'm only here as Devil's advocate.

When I start a program similar to this, I wasn't anywhere near a really good base level of strength, although despite that I never really gained a whole lot in the 2 years I used it. I got decent gains off Max-OT but nothing immense, and now I'm pretty much commited to DC for life.

The old school routines of lots of sets at different angles and all that are, I believe, a thing of the past that has been drat near debunked, especially for natural bodybuilders. More and more top ranking, huge, ripped bodybuilders are doing less sets, less reps, and more weight in a sort of "Powerbuilding" style. I know in personal experience I've never made gains as insane as when I do DC, and I mean that in both a strength way and a bodybuilding way (since I lift to look good, really).

Just something to consider that while some people can do okay with the one body part per day per week splits, it seems the majority (again, natural) would benefit better by going to a DC style plan.

Edit:
I guess I also see things a little differently. In my mind, if you did your warmup and did 4 sets of 6-10 reps for squats, you probably aren't doing enough weight to really grow since you're pacing yourself with so many reps. If you go on to do leg press, then you obviously didn't work hard enough on squats if you can still leg press for any appreciable weight/reps. Same goes for the other bodyparts.

Fenarisk fucked around with this message at May 30, 2007 around 05:59

cavefish
Mar 4, 2002

by Y Kant Ozma Post


Fenarisk posted:

When I start a program similar to this, I wasn't anywhere near a really good base level of strength, although despite that I never really gained a whole lot in the 2 years I used it. I got decent gains off Max-OT but nothing immense, and now I'm pretty much commited to DC for life.

Fortunately I mentioned the whole "base level of strength" thing and suggested people do the 5x5 if they're weak!

quote:

The old school routines of lots of sets at different angles and all that are, I believe, a thing of the past that has been drat near debunked, especially for natural bodybuilders.

Which is good because the routine I posted is nothing like that. It's pretty drat basic and I don't see anything about angles and 30 sets of isolation per muscle group.

quote:

More and more top ranking, huge, ripped bodybuilders are doing less sets, less reps, and more weight in a sort of "Powerbuilding" style. I know in personal experience I've never made gains as insane as when I do DC, and I mean that in both a strength way and a bodybuilding way (since I lift to look good, really).

Like who? Just because Ronnie does some insane poo poo on his videos and hams it up for the camera doesn't mean he does that all the time. He typically does high rep poo poo (with much heavier weights than any of us will ever hope to use) like Cutler, Ruhl, Levrone, and other bodybuilders I've seen in videos and whatnot. Dorian Yates recently switched to a system similar to DC but he's still doing heavy "warmup" sets before his "max" set which is high rep...

quote:

I guess I also see things a little differently. In my mind, if you did your warmup and did 4 sets of 6-10 reps for squats, you probably aren't doing enough weight to really grow since you're pacing yourself with so many reps.

This makes no sense. Please do 4x10 on squats with a decent weight with 60 second rest intervals and tell me you're not working hard.

quote:

If you go on to do leg press, then you obviously didn't work hard enough on squats if you can still leg press for any appreciable weight/reps. Same goes for the other bodyparts.

I don't even know what you're saying anymore. You think you can't squat heavy then leg press heavy after that? Obviously it won't be near your 1 rep max but come on. You don't have to go to absolute failure on every set.

cavefish fucked around with this message at May 30, 2007 around 06:14

Fenarisk
Oct 26, 2005



cavefish posted:

I don't even know what you're saying anymore. You think you can't squat heavy then leg press heavy after that? Obviously it won't be near your 1 rep max but come on. You don't have to go to absolute failure on every set.

For a muscle to grow to the best of it's ability, you have to tear it down as much as possible before letting it rest and feeding it. I would argue that unless one is going very heavy to the very last inch that their muscle can go, say, for squats, then they shouldn't be able to go on and do another set of something similar (in this case, leg press).

The routine you posted is a lot like past stuff, thought, becuase if you look at chest you have incline, flat, and flys, and for shoulder you have military, rear flys, lateral raises, shrugs, etc. For someone natural that should be going as hard as they can with heavy weight, how are they going to go from absolutely demolishing their shoulder on a compound like military press and then do a weight that's even going to help them grow for the next 3 exercises?

I guess I'm going off the way I lift now, with rest pause sets to complete and utter failure. I will always have one final cheat rep at the end, but there isn't a single exercise I've done in the past 6 months that I haven't almost felt my eyes explode from the effort of pushing/pulling the weight, and it's the only method so far that's given me noticeable gains in size.

cavefish
Mar 4, 2002

by Y Kant Ozma Post


Fenarisk posted:

For a muscle to grow to the best of it's ability, you have to tear it down as much as possible before letting it rest and feeding it. I would argue that unless one is going very heavy to the very last inch that their muscle can go, say, for squats, then they shouldn't be able to go on and do another set of something similar (in this case, leg press).

The routine you posted is a lot like past stuff, thought, becuase if you look at chest you have incline, flat, and flys, and for shoulder you have military, rear flys, lateral raises, shrugs, etc. For someone natural that should be going as hard as they can with heavy weight, how are they going to go from absolutely demolishing their shoulder on a compound like military press and then do a weight that's even going to help them grow for the next 3 exercises?

Well not being a pussy would be a good start.

Fenarisk
Oct 26, 2005



cavefish posted:

Well not being a pussy would be a good start.

I have absolutely no idea what this is alluding to, and I can see that anything isn't akin to what your friend does must be absolute garbage, so I'll just agree that you posted the most perfect be-all solution for anyone looking to build themselves up, bravo for you.

cavefish
Mar 4, 2002

by Y Kant Ozma Post


It was referring to your shoulder press comment because for some crazy reason I have no problem going extremely heavy on push presses, military press, or seated barbell or dumbell pressing and then hammering the poo poo out of my delts with raises.

It's not like training one lift heavy completely destroys your ability to lift anything else. You also seem to be operating under the assumption that the weight has to be "heavy" for growth when that's not really the case.

ikillhostages
Sep 10, 2005


Fenarisk I guess you must've really sucked since I and many people I know have followed a similiar routine and achieved results very rapidly.

Piss Man 94
Jun 11, 2003


if you guys are done with the pissing contest i have a question:

are you supposed to up the weight between sets in a program like this?

cavefish
Mar 4, 2002

by Y Kant Ozma Post


Personal preference. You can keep the weight the same or do what I do and start off light and work up to basically a max set on the last one. Of course as you get fatigued you may actually have to move the weight down...

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fart daddy smooth
Sep 7, 2004


Fenarisk posted:

For a muscle to grow to the best of it's ability, you have to tear it down as much as possible before letting it rest and feeding it. I would argue that unless one is going very heavy to the very last inch that their muscle can go, say, for squats, then they shouldn't be able to go on and do another set of something similar (in this case, leg press).
Heresy.

quote:

The routine you posted is a lot like past stuff, thought, becuase if you look at chest you have incline, flat, and flys, and for shoulder you have military, rear flys, lateral raises, shrugs, etc. For someone natural that should be going as hard as they can with heavy weight, how are they going to go from absolutely demolishing their shoulder on a compound like military press and then do a weight that's even going to help them grow for the next 3 exercises?
I know some natural bodybuilders who've been competing for almost as many years as I've been alive. They lifted heavy in the beginning of their 'career' with compound exercises and some auxiliary movements for aesthetic purposes. Into their 20s, two of the guys that still compete went to routines like the one in the OP because they weren't getting significant size gains from the way they were training before. Also, they don't really want their lower backs or glutes too big, either, so they keep squats, but deadlift very seldom if at all.

If you can't go from military presses to side/rear DB raises, don't train. I don't even see how that's hard and it's not hard for naturals and quit putting emphasis on naturals. That's actually a pretty standard way to train shoulders, so I don't know what you're talking about.

quote:

I guess I'm going off the way I lift now, with rest pause sets to complete and utter failure. I will always have one final cheat rep at the end, but there isn't a single exercise I've done in the past 6 months that I haven't almost felt my eyes explode from the effort of pushing/pulling the weight, and it's the only method so far that's given me noticeable gains in size.
So basically you found DC training, liked it, got results with a few months of doing it and now it's the only way you see to train. Cool, but there's all sorts of ways to train and some people will get more from certain methods of training at certain stages than they will from other routines.

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