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OK thanks guys. I'm about halfway through and this might be my favorite Discworld so far in some ways. Wyrd Sisters probably made me laugh out loud more, but I'm really enjoying the characters here and the singular focus on Ankh-Morpork.Jedit posted:I recommend reading the book. It answers many questions that are not covered in the first 50 pages. Wow dude thanks for the quality advice, without you I wouldn't have made it as far as I have!
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Nov 21, 2014 04:31
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Damo posted:Wow dude thanks for the quality advice, without you I wouldn't have made it as far as I have! Well, it was a silly question if you think about it. And unlike other people, I didn't want to spoil anything specific. By the way, the start of Pyramids becomes a lot more fun when you realise it's a parody of the old UK driving test. It's harder to spot these days because the opening Q&A section (including the cards with road signs that the examiner would sometimes accidentally hold the wrong way up) has been replaced by the theory test.
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Nov 21, 2014 09:28
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I knew it was kind of pointless, seeing as I mentioned I was only 50 pages in so I didn't expect it to be answered by that point, I was just really curious and wanted to see if I could get a hint about it ahead of time. Also it could spring a bit of discussion about the book in general that I would likely be able to read soon considering I'd be done with the book within a day or two. Does that make sense? Anyway, yeah I read about the driving exam parallel, which is funny. I mostly just liked the idea of the perpetually one-step-ahead teacher (he was the gargoyle that Teppic tapped his finger on, wasn't he?), and that they feel no guilt in trying to get the student to kill themselves, reasoning that as long as you don't kill them directly it's their own fault. A very Ankh-Morpork way of viewing things.
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Nov 21, 2014 10:43
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Jedit posted:Well, it was a silly question if you think about it. And unlike other people, I didn't want to spoil anything specific. Oh. OOOOOH. I love these loving books.
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Nov 21, 2014 12:30
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Jedit posted:Well, it was a silly question if you think about it. And unlike other people, I didn't want to spoil anything specific. Haha, yeah, when I heard about that it made the reread much better. The boarding school parody was also drat good.
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Nov 21, 2014 17:28
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Hogge Wild posted:Haha, yeah, when I heard about that it made the reread much better. The boarding school parody was also drat good. The boarding school is specifically taking on Tom Brown's Schooldays. Pteppic is Tom; Arthur is George Arthur, the excessively sensitive and pious boy (hence the goat scene); and Chidder is Scud. The bully Fliemoe is Speedicut - Speedycut and Flymo being makes of lawnmower. There's also a pun in Arthur's surname, Ludorum, and his father being one of the greatest ever assassins. "Ludorum" means "of the games", and Man is of course the most dangerous game.
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Nov 21, 2014 18:07
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Then who is Flashman?
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Nov 21, 2014 18:12
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Fliemoe's a composite of both of them (if Fliemoe invites you for toast in his study, don't go!) There's also strong tinges of Flashman in how we see Lord Downey behaving when he was at school, much later in the series.
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Nov 21, 2014 18:42
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Trin Tragula posted:Fliemoe's a composite of both of them (if Fliemoe invites you for toast in his study, don't go!) There's also strong tinges of Flashman in how we see Lord Downey behaving when he was at school, much later in the series. I picked Fliemoe/Speedicut, but I completely missed this. It's totally obvious as soon as someone mentions it, and the implications are amazing.
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Nov 21, 2014 21:45
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Trin Tragula posted:There's a line in there somewhere about the Day Watch having become another one of the city's gangs, and the Night Watch not even being good enough to manage that, right? No, they're definitely a watch and definitely not a gang, but they don't show up (at all) until several books into the Guards series. And when they do it's mostly as antagonists, though not outright villains. And damnit I need to read Flashman. And Tom Brown's Schooldays, apparently.
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Nov 22, 2014 00:27
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Read Flashman for sure. It's very funny, although in a very different way from Pratchett. I read the first one first, then I just read them in any order and I'm pretty sure it didn't matter even as much as Discworld does. Royal Flash (germanic nobility shenanigans) is my favorite though, probably followed by Flashman (the retreat from Kabul) then Flashman At The Charge (as in "the charge of the light brigade"). I found Tom Brown's School Days to be excruciatingly boring. I'm pretty sure it wasn't worth it for what I actually got out of it, which was the ability to go "ha, that's a reference to Tom Brown's School Days" whenever one shows up. I guess it is the quintessential English Boarding School story, but if you don't know anything about that area you can get the gist from many more entertaining sources. Tom is just such a smarmy goody-goody little fucker and it's just played completely straight. I got the feeling it was supposed to teach serious important moral lessons rather than be entertaining. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Nov 22, 2014 |
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Nov 22, 2014 03:06
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OK I feel a bit stupid and dense but I'm having trouble realizing what Vimes' revelation about Vetinari's imprisonment in Guards! Guards! exactly was. Vetinari keeps asking him what he sees when he looks at the dungeon door, which looks normal to Vimes until it clicks and he gets it which a sense of admiration for the Patrician. He says Captain Vimes posted:It was a perfectly normal dungeon door, it all just depended on your sense of perspective. So, is that implying that everyone outside is basically in the "dungeon" so to speak? I don't really get it 
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Nov 22, 2014 05:29
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Damo posted:OK I feel a bit stupid and dense but I'm having trouble realizing what Vimes' revelation about Vetinari's imprisonment in Guards! Guards! exactly was. Prisons are supposed to keep people locked in and the outside world safe from their existence; the Patrician's special cell keeps him safe from the outside world because he can lock the drat door on them. It's like a glass-half-empty/full thing, based on the usual expectation that obviously a locked cell would have the bolts and poo poo outside where the captors can control them. BTW, I am struggling to put this in words for some reason, hahaha.
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Nov 22, 2014 06:42
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Damo posted:So, is that implying that everyone outside is basically in the "dungeon" so to speak? I don't really get it I figured it was Vetinari's way of saying "I'm completely safe in here. I planned this whole thing." e: Wasn't it mentioned that Vetinari was put in "the special dungeon" or something similar? Almost as if he'd told everyone that he had a really secure cell prepared for dangerous political prisoners... Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 06:48 on Nov 22, 2014 |
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Nov 22, 2014 06:44
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I think the word you are all looking for is "panic room" - presumably on the Disc, Vetinari invented them for the occasion (or got the idea out of some old and rare book that he subsequently destroyed).
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Nov 22, 2014 07:47
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AlphaDog posted:I got the feeling it was supposed to teach serious important moral lessons rather than be entertaining. That's exactly what it was; it was born out of a genre literally called "improving stories", in which a load of horribly anal little children behave like little Goody Two-Shoes (and the reason that phrase endures is because she's the titular character of an improving story from about 90 years before Tom Brown) and set a good example for your children to follow. Tom Brown's Schooldays is basically about an improving story (in the vector of George) infecting a bunch of suprisingly normal kids at Rugby, and either they roll with it and turn into dull little Good People (ready to become selfless servants of the Empire!) or they get expelled like Flashman, and as far as the book's concerned, he presumably ends up dying penniless in a ditch six months later.
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Nov 22, 2014 11:50
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Trin Tragula posted:That's exactly what it was; it was born out of a genre literally called "improving stories", in which a load of horribly anal little children behave like little Goody Two-Shoes (and the reason that phrase endures is because she's the titular character of an improving story from about 90 years before Tom Brown) and set a good example for your children to follow. Tom Brown's Schooldays is basically about an improving story (in the vector of George) infecting a bunch of suprisingly normal kids at Rugby, and either they roll with it and turn into dull little Good People (ready to become selfless servants of the Empire!) or they get expelled like Flashman, and as far as the book's concerned, he presumably ends up dying penniless in a ditch six months later. Yeah, Mark Twain wrote some parodies of that kind of story himself. Flashman kinda lost me in the first book though because he was a little TOO much of an rear end in a top hat. Granted I have a baseline dislike of unlikable protagonists (like the Eight Deadly Words say, "I don't care what happens to these people" is a killer thing, and making them jerks is a good step along the way there for me), but the guy's literally a rapist at one point. Others may not have as many issues with it (he does receive some karmic payback for the deed as I recall at least) but it irritated me enough when I tried the books I figure fair warning is due.
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Nov 22, 2014 23:22
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Trin Tragula posted:That's exactly what it was Well now I feel silly. MadDogMike posted:Yeah, Mark Twain wrote some parodies of that kind of story himself. It's pretty clear from the back cover and the introduction that you're going to be reading a story about a truly awful person. I do understand that some people really don't like that sort of thing, so I'll reiterate what you said in case someone's misunderstood it: Flashman the character is a bad person. Flashman the book, and all its sequels, are not a stories about a bad person who really has a heart of gold and sees the error of his ways and does the right thing, they're about an thoroughly nasty, cowardly person who luckily comes out on top and is completely unrepentant. e: Those Twain stories are cool, they read a little bit like Pratchett at the ends. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Nov 23, 2014 |
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Nov 23, 2014 00:18
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AlphaDog posted:Well now I feel silly. Yeah Flashman is awful through and through, he ends up being sort of heroic by virtue of being the main character in an adventure story so he has to win or he'll end up dead, but he's always drawn as a total fucker. Which in earlier times would include some jolly rapey shenanigans (cf Bond, James).
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Nov 23, 2014 07:39
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I recently finished Snuff. Is it less-tightly written than his other stuff? Somewhat. But holy hell is this an absolutely glorious sendup of late 19th century English lit. In a way I found it a very self-aware book. Oddly enough, I re-read The Truth afterwards, and the latter seemed a heck of a lot more formulaic and vaguely boring. Maybe it's just me.
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Nov 26, 2014 14:10
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MadDogMike posted:
In the first book, Flashman is dark and somewhat angry, and if you're finding it so bleak that it's difficult to read I don't really blame you. The second book, and every subsequent book in the series is much more overtly comic. They're probably worse literature though... the first book has a point to make about the dysfunction of Empire and the nature of heroes, while the rest of them mostly just seem like entertaining romps.
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Nov 26, 2014 15:04
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I enjoyed Flashman, but you know what always bugs me about the writing? At least once in every book, there's a moment where he goes "I've been in some dashed nasty scrapes, but I'm not sure I was ever in one quite as bad as [the situation he's currently in]". After a certain point I realised I was spending the entire book just waiting for it to drop so I could be annoyed by it.
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Nov 27, 2014 00:10
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So the Good Omens radio play is coming out soon! http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/latestnews/2014/cabin-pressure-good-omens Peter Sarafinowicz as Crowley and Mark Heap as Azeraphale, which seems pretty spot-on to me.
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Nov 27, 2014 16:50
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I still feel like they have it the wrong way around, but only slightly.
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Nov 27, 2014 18:09
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AlphaDog posted:e: Wasn't it mentioned that Vetinari was put in "the special dungeon" or something similar? Almost as if he'd told everyone that he had a really secure cell prepared for dangerous political prisoners... I think this is the key Vetinari twist. He makes sure everyone knows that this is the superduper best cell that you should put really dangerous people in... so that when a coup happens that's where he'll be put. With all his books, food, rat politics to entertain himself with. Oh, and a spare key to get out. (Not that he told Vimes this. Vimes needed the challenge of getting out, made him feel useful)
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Nov 30, 2014 18:57
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Ugh. Snuff was soooo bad.  Raising Steam is a little better, but that's probably because I'm glad Harry King is playing a larger role. I always thought he was an interesting dude in the previous books.Is it the goblins? Both books have a focus on them, and I'm not sure if I hate them because they're a bad idea or I hate them because they weren't in the better-written books.
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Dec 1, 2014 04:34
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I don't mind the goblins, but they do sort of come out of nowhere. It gets explained, but it's quite jarring to have them be a Thing 40 books into a well-defined universe. Especially since there's been books set on every part of the Disc by now.
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Dec 1, 2014 10:33
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Corrode posted:I don't mind the goblins, but they do sort of come out of nowhere. It gets explained, but it's quite jarring to have them be a Thing 40 books into a well-defined universe. Especially since there's been books set on every part of the Disc by now. The orcs was worse. The goblins hide away and no one really speak about them because they either doesn't know about or that they doesn't like them. But with the orcs you not only have an army of brutal warriors but also a Sauron like leader and a loving war.
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Dec 1, 2014 19:47
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Alhazred posted:The orcs was worse. The goblins hide away and no one really speak about them because they either doesn't know about or that they doesn't like them. I didn't particularly see a problem with this - the Evil Empire in Uberwald and its fall was referenced as far back as Carpe Jugulum, if not further, and it fell because of an internal revolution, not because it went to war with Ankh-Morpork, iirc. So it makes sense that the man on the street wouldn't really be up on orcs and Evil Overlords except in a purely theoretical sense.
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Dec 2, 2014 17:23
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Kesper North posted:I didn't particularly see a problem with this - the Evil Empire in Uberwald and its fall was referenced as far back as Carpe Jugulum, if not further, and it fell because of an internal revolution, not because it went to war with Ankh-Morpork, iirc. So it makes sense that the man on the street wouldn't really be up on orcs and Evil Overlords except in a purely theoretical sense. Alhazred fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Dec 2, 2014 |
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Dec 2, 2014 18:03
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I thought it fit the hell out of Uberwald. We have no idea how terrible things are away from the lights of AM. An entire war happened, one of those last stands between good and evil, and we know nothing about it. It fits how Pratchett writes fantasy really well to me.
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Dec 2, 2014 22:08
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I finished Reaper Man and I was kinda disappointed by it, especially after how good Mort was. Windell Poons' story and the wizards were never particularly interesting to me, and Bill Door's story never rose to more than cute. Now I've started Soul Music and that seems more of the Pratchett I love. You've got fun banter between an unlikely group of misfits, a misunderstood outcast entering a strange world and, of course, that trademark mockery and anger this time pointed at the world of education and uh...Professional musicians. Also for some reason, the dumb, obvious jokes make me laugh the most. quote:'Then we play somewhere where the Guild won't find us,' said Glod cheerfully. ' We find a club somewhere–’ quote:'Why couldn't we just take it off her?' said Glod, when they were outside.
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Dec 2, 2014 22:50
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If liking jokes about sheer bloody-minded literality, or people talking at cross purposes because they have no frame of reference for each other, is wrong, then I for one do not wish to be right.quote:'Well done!' said Leonard. 'Tell me, sergeant, are you of a nautical persuasion?' 
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Dec 3, 2014 00:34
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Alhazred posted:Considering there's so many characters in the series from Uberwald and one book set in the region it feels jarring that we only hear about orcs and the Evil Emperor in Unseen Academicals. Especially since Vimes is required to assist when Borogravia, which in no way could be considered an empire, goes to war. We hear about it on and off in plenty of books before Unseen Academicals, just not in any detail. And its fall happened before the books, didn't it?
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Dec 3, 2014 00:43
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Man I really hate the size of the new (I think since 2013) Harper Collins paperback Discworld books. They are about an inch taller than the old versions and like every other mass market paperback book ever. They are as tall as most trade paperbacks without the extra width. They hold really awkward and look even worse when reading. I don't know what the poo poo they were thinking with this shape, they are the worst. Now I have to track down the older versions so they will fit together on my shelf and not be awkward as hell to read. Anyway, I've made it up to Eric right now, only about 40 pages in. It's OK so far, nothing special. Looking forward to the next witches or watch book at this point honestly, but I still don't mind just plowing through publication order.
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Dec 3, 2014 08:11
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Damo posted:Anyway, I've made it up to Eric right now, only about 40 pages in. It's OK so far, nothing special. Looking forward to the next witches or watch book at this point honestly, but I still don't mind just plowing through publication order. Eric is one of the weirder books. It's not really "bad" but I don't believe I've ever heard anyone call it good either. If I were making suggestions to someone on reading order, Eric probably would not be in there at all, or at the very least after you read the better books.
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Dec 3, 2014 19:32
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Will you be reading The Last Hero as well? You're a way off it yet, but being quite short it manages to concentrate the humour very well and the illustrations are pretty much spot on for how I'd envision Discworld.
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Dec 3, 2014 21:08
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Doctor_Fruitbat posted:Will you be reading The Last Hero as well? You're a way off it yet, but being quite short it manages to concentrate the humour very well and the illustrations are pretty much spot on for how I'd envision Discworld. It's also a pretty good ending for Rincewind.
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Dec 4, 2014 16:47
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VagueRant posted:I finished Reaper Man and I was kinda disappointed by it, especially after how good Mort was. Windell Poons' story and the wizards were never particularly interesting to me, and Bill Door's story never rose to more than cute. Oh man... I don't really care for the Windle Poons stuff but the Bill Door sections are some of my favorite in all of Discworld.
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Dec 4, 2014 19:01
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kmzh posted:Oh man... I don't really care for the Windle Poons stuff but the Bill Door sections are some of my favorite in all of Discworld. Pretty much. Reaper Man is half of an amazing book, and Windle loving Poons is the half that drags it down. "What hope hath the harvest, if not for the care of the reaper man?" So good.
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Dec 4, 2014 20:35
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