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brains
May 12, 2004

Top Hats Monthly posted:

Was at the Jeep dealer with a friend

When did Wranglers get so expensive? They seemed way over what should be a simple mechanical design bare bones

Back to looking at XJs and CJs :v:

when i bought my '12 there was a brand new '13 parked next to it, exact same trim and options and even color, only the sticker was 3 thousand more.

my 2012 had less miles than it :laugh:

the unlimited rubicons were even more ridiculous, asking 40K+ is insane. i saw one unlimited with some AEV bumpers for 55K! it sat there forever. this was colorado though, and you see it in the prices for off-road vehicles.

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Cat Hatter
Oct 24, 2006

Hatters gonna hat.
Wranglers hit a nice intersection of being very capable off-road and having a rugged look while still somehow being a cute, convertible SUV so there are several groups of people that it appeals to. FCA rarely offers any kinds of incentives on them because they literally can't build them fast enough to meet demand.

EightBit
Jan 7, 2006
I spent money on this line of text just to make the "Stupid Newbie" go away.

Cat Hatter posted:

Wranglers hit a nice intersection of being very capable off-road and having a rugged look while still somehow being a cute, convertible SUV so there are several groups of people that it appeals to. FCA rarely offers any kinds of incentives on them because they literally can't build them fast enough to meet demand.

I don't get the "cute" thing at all.

Cat Hatter
Oct 24, 2006

Hatters gonna hat.

EightBit posted:

I don't get the "cute" thing at all.

I did a quick image search for the movie "Clueless" but they were all either closeups of Alicia Silverstone or distant pictures of her running into poo poo. I don't know if its because its a small (for an SUV) convertible or what, but there are definitely women who drive Wranglers for reasons other than offroad prowess or manly looks. Forget that it can go offroad and compare it to a Suzuki or a Geo Tracker (preferably while squinting) and you can kind of see it.

Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?

Top Hats Monthly posted:

Was at the Jeep dealer with a friend

When did Wranglers get so expensive? They seemed way over what should be a simple mechanical design bare bones

Back to looking at XJs and CJs :v:

A stripper model can be had for 24 or 25. But most of what you see on the lot are Saharas or Sport S models with all the comfort options.

IOwnCalculus
Apr 2, 2003





Cat Hatter posted:

I don't know if its because its a small (for an SUV) convertible or what, but there are definitely women who drive Wranglers for reasons other than offroad prowess or manly looks.

One of my wife's best friends drives a YJ, which I'm pretty sure is a 2WD four-cylinder, with what have to be at least 35s if not 37s and just enough lift on it to make them not rub. It still requires a flying leap to get in, and is incapable of achieving highway-worthy speeds because they haven't re-geared it. It has never seen worse than a dirt road and she won't drive if the weather is too nasty.

She loves it exactly as it is.

So, yeah, there's definitely a subset buying the Wrangler for that.

And yes, the JK is loving expensive. I bought a WJ priced at the high end of the market because it was still less than half the cost of the worst JKU I could find.

FreelanceSocialist
Nov 19, 2002
My boss was trying to find a nice JKU for awhile and ended up getting a fully-loaded WK2 Overland with the Hemi and all sorts of accessories for so much cheaper that he bought a VW GTI as well, for commuting.

The Royal Nonesuch
Nov 1, 2005

Put a 32-tooth longshaft speedo gear into the XJ today to get it reading accurately on the 31" tires. Easy 15minute job. The dumb needle wobbles like crazy under 30mph but is steady above that and reads ~2mph slow compared to the GPS app on my phone at 55mph. Good enough!

My fuel gauge is totally worthless despite all my efforts to fix it, so I keep close track of my milage for reference when out in the desert. Since I tuned it all up for smogcheck and installed Bosch 280-155-746 injectors I've done 112 miles - I refilled prior to installing the gear tonight and calculated (accounting for ~+6% discrepancy pre-speedo gear) - got 12.5 mpg doing all sidestreet LA driving, heavy on the the go pedal. Tolerable for a 1988 XJ w/ 3.5" lift/heavy 31" load E tires/3.55 gearing. Hoping for 17-20ish highway next time I go out to the desert. Tracking XJ milage is an exercise in pain and suffering; if I never got outside of gas-station range I could ignore it but it helps peace of mind when you're out in the middle of nowhere and you can ignore the gauge reading in the red.

I also attempted to adjust my steering and discovered that no matter how I adjust my drag link it still pulls hard right, so I need to go get it aligned.

Top Hats Monthly
Jun 22, 2011


People are people so why should it be, that you and I should get along so awfully blink blink recall STOP IT YOU POSH LITTLE SHIT
When you're talking offroad, what is the best Jeep you can go modern, classic?

Top Hats Monthly fucked around with this message at 05:02 on Sep 4, 2015

Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?
A factory JK is the most capable off road vehicle Jeep has ever built. If you're asking about Wrangler variants...the Rubicon is probably still the best. I can't remember what the Willys includes, but really what sets the Rubicon above the rest is the front D44 and the better transfer case. They all have the same ground clearance (within the same specs, at least), and as long as you don't get the absolute bottom-of-the-barrel stripper like mine, you get 32" tires and enough clearance to fit many 33s without even needed a lift. A torque curve that's flat as gently caress (though kicks in a little later than the 3.8 and 4.0) and almost 300 hp...yeah it's pretty good. 2012+ for the new drivetrain.

There's definitely a "fun as poo poo" factor with an older Jeep though that you just don't get with a newer one...but I'm a sucker for classic vehicles in general. But in all seriousness, I'd have to dump probably $15k to get power and ground clearance comparable to what a JK comes with.

Godholio fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Sep 4, 2015

Great Beer
Jul 5, 2004

EightBit posted:

I don't get the "cute" thing at all.

I think its the headlights. Those big round lights just look so friendly and inviting. Thats probably also why those "angry eye" covers that make the lights look like theyre scowling are so popular: They dont look tough enough for Real Manly Men.

Moey
Oct 22, 2010

I LIKE TO MOVE IT

FreelanceSocialist posted:

My boss was trying to find a nice JKU for awhile and ended up getting a fully-loaded WK2 Overland with the Hemi and all sorts of accessories for so much cheaper that he bought a VW GTI as well, for commuting.

I am looking at used WK2 Overlands. It will cost less than a decent new wrangler. My only concerns are the electronics crapping out. The XJ is still lingering in the back of my mind.

BoostCreep
May 3, 2004

Might I ask where you keep your forced induction accessories?
Grimey Drawer

Moey posted:

I am looking at used WK2 Overlands. It will cost less than a decent new wrangler. My only concerns are the electronics crapping out. The XJ is still lingering in the back of my mind.

Has this been a concern on WK2s? I had a 2013 for a year and there were no electrical problems. I mean I guess any car can have problems many years down the road.

mod sassinator
Dec 13, 2006
I came here to Kick Ass and Chew Bubblegum,
and I'm All out of Ass

Top Hats Monthly posted:

When you're talking offroad, what is the best Jeep you can go modern, classic?

Depends what kind of off-roading you want to do. If it's crawling around and bashing off rocks I wouldn't want anything expensive or that I care about denting panels and scratching paint. If you're really crazy about heavy off-roading you're going to want to modify the vehicle quite a bit anyways to put in heavy skid plates, make room for maximum tire articulation, beef up the axles, etc. IMHO it's stupid to start cutting up and welding on a cage to a brand new $30k Wrangler.

If it's like baja style racing then the Wrangler really isn't built for that kind of off-roading. You'd want like a Ford Raptor or something similar.

If it's just casual go out on a weekend to some fire trails and mud puddles then pretty much anything with 4 wheel drive will do. A Wrangler Rubicon will be a nice and have a lot of good upgrades to make it quite capable off-road, but again you probably don't want to bash it off rocks and such.

And if you want something to go on an expedition around the world I don't think I'd look at a Jeep. You want a Land Rover D90, Mercedes G500, Toyota Landcruiser--something with a great reputation for off-roading, reliability, and that can haul a lot of gear.

mod sassinator fucked around with this message at 06:05 on Sep 4, 2015

IOwnCalculus
Apr 2, 2003





mod sassinator posted:

Depends what kind of off-roading you want to do. If it's crawling around and bashing off rocks I wouldn't want anything expensive or that I care about denting panels and scratching paint. If you're really crazy about heavy off-roading you're going to want to modify the vehicle quite a bit anyways to put in heavy skid plates, make room for maximum tire articulation, beef up the axles, etc. IMHO it's stupid to start cutting up and welding on a cage to a brand new $30k Wrangler.

You say that, but of the ~140 Jeeps from the local club that I ran with this past weekend... I'd say the overwhelming majority are TJs and JKs, split half and half. Some YJs, a few CJs, a handful of XJs and Grands, and a single Commander. There are a lot of people who have no problem buying a new JK Rubicon and instantly upgrading it / bashing it on the trails.

EightBit
Jan 7, 2006
I spent money on this line of text just to make the "Stupid Newbie" go away.
Every time I've been out on the trails with the local jeep club, there's been a JK getting banged up, less than a year old. I've seen them doing insane rock climbs with temp plates. There's a decent intersection of people with money and a love of jeeps that will take their new $50,000+ Rubicon out and push them to the limits, then kit them out even more.

mod sassinator
Dec 13, 2006
I came here to Kick Ass and Chew Bubblegum,
and I'm All out of Ass
More power to them, but I wouldn't do it.

mattfl
Aug 27, 2004

I bought a 40k rubicon and within a week had about 10k in upgrades, had cut off quite a bit of metal, trimmed my factory fenders to fit my 37s and had it out on the rocks/trails within a month. Will I eventually break stuff? Sure, but that just means upgrades!

Sandbagger SA
Aug 12, 2003

Giant Thighs.
Painted Threads.
Just Off the Highway.

mattfl posted:

I bought a 40k rubicon and within a week had about 10k in upgrades, had cut off quite a bit of metal, trimmed my factory fenders to fit my 37s and had it out on the rocks/trails within a month. Will I eventually break stuff? Sure, but that just means upgrades!

drat.

For that money, I'd have an LMTV.

FreelanceSocialist
Nov 19, 2002

Moey posted:

I am looking at used WK2 Overlands. It will cost less than a decent new wrangler. My only concerns are the electronics crapping out. The XJ is still lingering in the back of my mind.

I'd say go for it. I love the one he owns. It's got balls, good offroad capability, and all sorts of luxury comforts.

Too bad it's missing some miles per gallons...

Wamsutta
Sep 9, 2001

BoostCreep posted:

Has this been a concern on WK2s? I had a 2013 for a year and there were no electrical problems. I mean I guess any car can have problems many years down the road.

2011-2013 are pretty solid. It's the 14+ that have had a lot of electrical beefs.

To the poster looking at a used WK2 Overland: it's a great vehicle. Super comfortable and loads of goodies that you really appreciate once you have them for the first time (adaptive cruise control is amazing on long road trips). We got my wife a 2011 Overland V6 last summer, and I have a 2012 Laredo V6. The thing with the Overland is it's one of those vehicles where an extended warranty is actually worth thinking about, because if that air suspension takes a dump, it's mucho expensive to pay for yourself. The only issue we've had with her Overland in the last 13 months is the fuel pump relay crapping itself, which was fixed under warranty, and a recall was later issued for the part in 2011-2013 models.

Moey
Oct 22, 2010

I LIKE TO MOVE IT

BoostCreep posted:

Has this been a concern on WK2s? I had a 2013 for a year and there were no electrical problems. I mean I guess any car can have problems many years down the road.

Not really, just everything running through the head unit makes me nervous since it limits what I'll be able to do on my own.

I did read of some people having issues with the quadralift. But don't believe it is common.

Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?

mod sassinator posted:

More power to them, but I wouldn't do it.

Yeah, I've got limits as to what I'm willing to try while I'm still paying it off. Of course, I bought my '12 right around the time I transitioned to a job with a 65% pay cut, so my mod/repair budget has been virtually nil, but I'll be making up for lost time in the next few weeks. Wheels/tires, sliders, underbody protection, a dashcam, and a bunch of other things that are making me smile right now. This is gonna be a good black friday.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.
I stick with $1000 and under for my shitwagon jeeps.

But you know what? I'm all for the people who buy them brand new and drive them to the mall and never scratch them, too. Because someone's gotta take the $20k decline in value before it's a jeep I can buy in a decade for $1k.

And all for people buying em new and thrashing on them immediately too. It's your car, do as you will with it.

I still think the people putting bling rimzzzz and lovely lifts and low profile nitto mud grapplers and ~~~~SPARTAN GRILLES~~~~ on are loving idiots, though. But again, those are going to be parts donors at some point.

IOwnCalculus
Apr 2, 2003





mod sassinator posted:

More power to them, but I wouldn't do it.

Oh yeah, me neither. There's no way I'd thrash something with a loan on it, so it'll be a good long while before I replace the WJ with anything newer.

But someone's gotta take that depreciation hit for the rest of us.

FreelanceSocialist
Nov 19, 2002
A loan and likely an insurance policy that states in the fine print that it doesn't cover offroad damages. Earlier this year someone in front of me rolled a brand new JKU during a descent because they didn't know what they were doing and their insurer denied the claim.

mattfl
Aug 27, 2004

You'd be surprised how little a newer Wrangler depreciates. I had a 2012 sport jku that I paid 32k new and traded it in 3 months ago and got 29k for it. Sure it had a lift/tires/armor still installed on it. But I drove that thing pretty hard on the trails and rocks for 3 years and it had 58k miles on it.

EightBit
Jan 7, 2006
I spent money on this line of text just to make the "Stupid Newbie" go away.
That's just Wranglers. I can sell my 2000 TJ for $10k just about whenever I want, and I can push for more since it has a 4" lift, rebuilt engine and transmission, etc. Fifteen years old, 195k miles.

Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?

mattfl posted:

You'd be surprised how little a newer Wrangler depreciates. I had a 2012 sport jku that I paid 32k new and traded it in 3 months ago and got 29k for it. Sure it had a lift/tires/armor still installed on it. But I drove that thing pretty hard on the trails and rocks for 3 years and it had 58k miles on it.

I bought my 12 new when I realized the used 10s and 11s I'd been looking at were $3-5k MORE than the 12 sticker.

mattfl
Aug 27, 2004

Godholio posted:

I bought my 12 new when I realized the used 10s and 11s I'd been looking at were $3-5k MORE than the 12 sticker.

Which is crazy since the 12 had the new engine.

Edit: my old jeep is still here at the dealership, they want 31.5k for it!

Great Beer
Jul 5, 2004

Wrangler prices are nuts. People ask 9k for a clean 95 with 150k miles and someone will buy it. Meanwhile you can buy ZJ grand Cherokees all day for under 2k.

Speaking of which, how are the old grand Cherokees? I've seen a few posters with the WJs but I rarely see anything about the ZJs. Are they just rubbish?

mod sassinator
Dec 13, 2006
I came here to Kick Ass and Chew Bubblegum,
and I'm All out of Ass

Great Beer posted:

Wrangler prices are nuts. People ask 9k for a clean 95 with 150k miles and someone will buy it. Meanwhile you can buy ZJ grand Cherokees all day for under 2k.

Speaking of which, how are the old grand Cherokees? I've seen a few posters with the WJs but I rarely see anything about the ZJs. Are they just rubbish?

From what I understand you want to stay away from the V8 models (except the 5.9 liter I think is supposed to be decent but a total gas hog?) and just get the 4 liter. And the less electronic stuff the better, since it's Jeep electronics.

iForge
Oct 28, 2010

Apple's new "iBlacksmith Suite: Professional Edition" features the iForge, iAnvil, and the iHammer.
The 4.7 is a ticking time bomb with oiling issues to the two rear cylinders. They also have too loose a press fit of the valve seats into an aluminum head so once you overheat one, or maybe if you don't, it might drop a valve seat and gently caress up your day. Stay away IMO.

Whoops wrong generation for that engine, but gently caress the 4.7. I had a 5.2 for a couple years and it never did me wrong.

iForge fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Sep 4, 2015

clam ache
Sep 6, 2009
5.9 5.2 they are both great motors. I had one in a ram 1500 and it was bullet proof. The manual trans attached to it was also bulletproof. the rust killed everything else and what didn't rust off turned into an electrical nightmare.

Edit: the ram had the 5.2

Sandbagger SA
Aug 12, 2003

Giant Thighs.
Painted Threads.
Just Off the Highway.
Previous owners are great huh?



These bolts were probably optional right?

The Royal Nonesuch
Nov 1, 2005

Sandbagger SA posted:

Previous owners are great huh?



These bolts were probably optional right?

Those are those two notorious E12 torx bolts right? That everyone hates? Looks like PO decided to leave them out of the reassembly process :v:

Nice new freeze plug though on the back of the head.

Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?
Those bolts were the bane of my existence trying to get to a loving slave cylinder in a YJ bellhousing.

Great Beer
Jul 5, 2004

Sandbagger SA posted:

Previous owners are great huh?



These bolts were probably optional right?

How the hell are you supposed to get to those? Connect the engine/transmission outside of the car and drop the whole mess in at once?

th vwls hv scpd
Jul 12, 2006

Developing Smarter Mechanics.
Since 1989.
I find a 36" extension, wobble with some electrical tape wrapped around it and a socket to be very manageable.

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Slow is Fast
Dec 25, 2006

RE: grand cherokees, the joke is never buy one that ends with a motor ending in .7?

We had two WJ's and as soon as you try and tow with them they farted out the trans. Rest are ok. 4.0 stuff is great.

RE: Those stupid loving e torx bits, apparently you can build a socket and extension and broken dink contraption to get to them undernearth. When I did it on my XJ We just dremeled the heads off and replaced with bolts because gently caress you etorx.

If the CJ ever needs stuff done, the whole driveline comes out, none of this trying to separate driveline stuff, I'm done with that unless it's a subaru.

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