Milsurp Megathread: if it ain't C&R, it ain't shit

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > The Firing Range > Milsurp Megathread: if it ain't C&R, it ain't shit

Cyrano4747: Sep 25, 2006; I am a closet nazi apologist.

A couple of days ago I was idling away my time cleaning rifles and snorting powdered cosmolene when it occurred to me that the Mosin Megathread, as amazing as it was, was covering many topics that really were more "general milsurp" in nature. Since many of these are the same topics that come up in every single milsurp thread (will corrosive ammo ruin my gun? how do I clean cosmolene? Where can I buy a Mosin? and so on) I figured a general milsurp megathread might be of use. I sent a request up to the Oberkommando des Forums (OKF - aka Lincolns Wax) and received permission for one (1) standard issue megathread, type "milsurp."

What is milsurp? Milsurp is many things to many people. To me it's awesome old historical rifles that come in a dizzying array of types and variations. For others it mean a cheap deer rifle from big 5. Either way, the common thread through it all is that it's guns that were, at one point or another, used by a military and have since entered the civilian market as (usually) inexpensive firearms for the collector and shooter alike.

So, you've gathered that these old military rifles might be right up your ally, but have a few general questions about them. Where to start?

Well, first off there's lots of info in the Wiki. Here are a few choice offerings:

A very basic guide to buying milsurp guns

A very basic guide to cleaning milsurp guns

These two guides are generally used on stocks that are in fairly poor shape. They are fairly aggressive treatments and should ONLY be done with stocks that are really, really oil soaked or otherwise hosed up. PLEASE ask in the thread, with pictures, if your gun is a candidate before just jumping into this.
A very basic guide to refinishing milsurp stocks

A guide to refinishing shellacked stocks, using a RC K98k as an example

A very basic guide to milsurp ammunition - includes information on cleaning up after "corrosive" ammunition.

A basic guide to cleaning corrosive residue out of semi-autos - all SVT-40, G/K43, Garand, Tantal, SKS, etc. owners who shoot corrosive surplus should read this.

How to restore a piece of milsurp leather gear

How to get a C&R license

Other good resources for specific milsurp issues: (this section updated periodically, check back once in a while)

If you're having trouble with your rifle hurting your shoulder, watch this video. It's a training film from WW2 on how to shoot the M1 Garand, but the basic fundamentals apply for any rifle. The whole thing is great and doing what it says will build great rifle fundamentals (they knew what they were doing training those soldiers back then), but the part that will at least let you shoot without hurting yourself was edited out into a separate video by Groda and can be found here. Just follow those instructions and you'll be able to shoot without messing up your arm.

Also, because this comes up all the time, The Inhibitor Anti-Corrosion Gun Storage Bag is my preferred method for storing guns for long periods of time so they won't rust. If you're having rust problems give them a shot. They're cheap ($5 for long gun bags at Cheaper than Dirt - they have pistol sized ones too) and very effective. As long as you properly seal the bag (use duct tape) you won't have any problems. They're also re-sealable, so if you just live in a humid climate and don't want your precious Mosin rusting between shoots they're a cheap alternative to de-humidification systems, especially if you don't have a air-tight gun safe. Because some people don't like CtD (they DO have rather highs shipping) here is a similar product from brownells.

Where are good places to get milsurp? Well, everyone has their favorite businesses and sources. I don't want to shill for any personal favorites right away in the OP, but the Civilian Marksmanship Program is the alpha and the omega of cheap USGI surplus rifles. By popular demand, here is the CMP's take on what the eligibility requirements for purchasing from them are. Many online retailers exist, and you folks should pipe up with your favorites and help populate this thread a bit.

Do you need to know how to take apart your gun? Start at http://www.surplusrifle.com. They have full pictorial guides for all major milsurp, including variants. They only stuff they don't have are the rarer and less common things, like G/K43s and the like. update: They have had some domain issues in the past year and seem to be up and down. There was a place re-hosting them for a bit, but I don't know how long that's going to be there either.

What about taking care of your gun and making sure it doesn't rust or rot away into a pile of scrap? Well, here are the gun care recommendations from the curators at the Springfield National Armory Historic Site - aka pro league milsurp fags. These can be a bit extreme - remember, they deal frequently with priceless one of a kind firearms that need to be preserved exactly for real deal historians, not just picky collectors - but they're the most conservative, all around best practices possible. As an example, they don't like BLO but no one is going to kill you if you liven up a dried out M1 Garand stock that you want to shoot with a bit of it. This link is all about total preservation, not restoration - the sort of methods I recommend for a RC K98k that you're prettying up would probably put them into fits. It's all about looking at your gun and asking yourself what you own, how original it is, and being realistic about what you need from that. If in doubt, ask questions and someone will try to give you some perspective and solid advice.

Here is a great document from the CMP that details which .30-06, .30 carbine, and 7.62NATO ammo made in the US and Canada is corrosive and which isn't.

Milsurp is a strange game, encompassing an entire spectrum from $50 beat up, common as dirt commie rifles to $3,000 collector condition Nazi self-loading rifles and on up to $40,000 machine guns. There's a bewildering array of potential pitfalls for the beginning milsurp collector and an even more treacherous set of fakes and forgeries when you start getting into the collectible stuff. That's what this thread is for: ask questions, post information, or simply discuss all stuff milsurp. If you don't know how to clean your new mosin, ask! (or rather read that "how to" I linked to above). If you want to know if the latest gunbroker auction you're looking at is a fake, ask - someone might have enough knowledge to be able to tell a renumbered gun from one that's still original. We've got quite a body of milsurp knowledge between some of the more 'surp-crazy regulars in here, and this is as good a place as any to get their attention and find out just why that rifle of yours came covered in the smelliest grease known to man.

Finally, there are rumors that, as this thread picks up steam, the Mosin thread will be phased out and eventually shut down. This is really just an expansion of the Mosin thread to cover all topics milsurp, so it's understandable.

To get things started, here is a picture of some milsurp:

edit: Because it gets asked so often, here is my canned response for "Why Mitchell's Mausers sucks donkey cock and you should never, ever buy anything from them." Seriously buy a K98k from anyone else in the world.

Cyrano posted:

1) They're shady hucksters. For years they were selling "Rare Nazi K98k rifles discovered in a warehouse never used collector's condition!!!!" that were Yugo M48a Mausers. You know, made in the late 40s, about 3-5 years after Hitler punched his own ticket. Oh yeah, they were selling them for $500 when you could order the exact same Yugo M48 minus the bullshit "certificate of collector's authenticity" for $80 off AIM.

2) These days they actually do sell German K98ks - in a way. They take perfectly decent RC K98ks and then do a really heavy handed refinishing job on them. That in itself makes collectors cringe, but the REAL crime is that they bill them as "all matching." Sure, they're all matching - Mitchell's takes a lot of time and effort to grind off all the non-matching serial numbers from the small parts on the RC rifle and re-stamp them with the numbers from the receiver. The fonts are all wrong, there are no Waffenampts on those renumbered parts, and basically it's the same kind of grind-and-punch operation that dishonest gun dealers have been using for years to sell "all matching" rifles to people who don't know better. They sell them as matching collectibles when in fact they're mismatched rifles that don't even have value as those any more due to the thorough humping they took. Ten years from now RC mismatches will actually be worth something, probably the same $500-600 range that the old Romanian-captured K98k bolt mismatches that were imported in the mid-90s fetch today. The mitchells hump-jobs won't get even what an honest mismatch will. They have such a stigma that no collector will go near them.

Have you ever see those "American Heritage Mint" ads that run on late night TV where they try to sell you a "limited edition super-collectible" coin for $50? You know, the poo poo like the 9/11 commemorative coin where they paint a silver dollar with the twin towers, or the more recent ones where they've got Obama election commemorative stuff? Those $50 "collectible" coins that are made by the millions to sell to bored and gullible grandmas at 2 am and which have no real value? That's Mitchell's. They are hucksters who exist solely to sell "collectible guns that will appreciate in value" to the sort of people who have no loving clue what they're buying and will trust anyone who prints up a glossy "certificate of authenticity and collectiblility" to toss in the box with the gun.

If TEOTWAWKI ever does come about while the rest of the world is busy looting, pillaging, and fighting t he unicorn menace a few thousand pissed off milsurpers will surround Mitchell's headquarters armed with a hell of a lot of K98ks, G/K43s, and the odd Stg44 and there WILL be blood that night.

Hey, I heard that those old military rifles are a great way to build up a sick scoped gun on the cheap! Can you guys tell me how to sporterize this gun / turn it into a steampunk replica / turn my Mosin into a tactical rifle?

Here is my equally canned response for why sporterizing military guns not only screws up awesome historical rifles, but also actually costs you more in the end than just buying a new, purpose built sporting gun like a Remington 700. Not only will it be cheaper, but you will have a nicer gun too!

Not only that, but this thread is mostly read and posted to by people who are into collecting these old guns, and as such the entire topic of sporterziation just turns into a gently caress-fest of people arguing with each other. Let's do everyone a favor and keep that sort of thing out of this thread.

Cyrano posted:

The simple reality is that there is almost always ZERO financial incentive to sporterize. I know it seems like a good way to get a cheap, accurate sporting rifle, but let's sit down and look at what work needs to be done and what needs to be purchased.

1) buy the base rifle. In this case a Yugo Mauser. We will assume a m24/47. Right now they are $210 at Aimsurplus, and you're probably not going to find significantly better prices than that.

2) do you have a C&R? If not add whatever the cost of doing a firearms transfer is at your local FFL. Typically it's in the $15-30 ballpark, although if you live in LA or some other hellhole it could be as high as $50.

3) Cut down the stock or purchase a new one. Do you have any woodworking skills? I hope so, because the hacksaw sporter jobs tend to look like fifteen types of rear end. That said, with some time, patience, and the ability to avoid getting drunk while working on your stock you CAN do a less than horrible job of it. The basic tools you will need to do it right are a hacksaw, sandpaper of at least four different grit types (running from very coarse to very fine), a small wordworking knife, and a finish of your choice to make the wood look uniform again when your'e done. Note that this is for a VERY basic job, just cutting the fore-end off and free-floating the barrel. If you want to raise the comb, add a recoil pad, recontour the grip, or anything else you will need more stuff and more know-how. Pre-sportered stocks can be had cheap, however, if you want to go that way, although quality will be all over the place and it will be hard to judge when ordering over gunbroker. Commercial sporter stocks are available, and the good ones run about $150 and need minor fitting (the kind you can do with a sharp knife and sandpaper). Depending on how ghetto a job this is your total cost will range from about $50 (for someone else's pre-sportered stock or a basic set of tools to do it yourself) to $175 (for a nice, commercial one that you need to finish yourself plus whatever your stain/poly finish of choice is)

4) gunsmithing. There is lots of stuff that needs to be done to the rifle to turn it into what most people consider a "sporting" gun. The front and rear sights need to be taken off and the rifle drilled and tapped for a scope, for one. You could do this yourself, but unless you have some mechanical skills and the PROPER TOOLS (especially for the drilling and tapping) you WILL gently caress this up. Pawn shops across the US are FULL of guns that some bubba hosed up a D/T job on and then sold because he was frustrated. I have no idea what a basic D/T job costs these days, but once you add in the cost of the mounts for the scope rings, I figure that it will run at least in the $200 ballpark for quality work. Remember - no matter what your gunsmith quotes you, it will go over. THey're like mechanics in this regard. You will probably also need the bolt worked on (see below)

5) optional stuff that you probably want done. This includes a trigger job (military triggers are never as nice as good commercial ones), having the bolt handle bent and/or swept back (even bent bolt mausers have trouble clearing a modern rifle scope), and even if it's a great condition rifle you're probably going to want to get it re-crowned while your'e at it. There are lots of other things that the nicer sporters have done also - turn down the barrel, re-countour the trigger guard to snag less on gear, lap and true the action lugs, and all manner of other little bolt action tuning things. This is all optional, but it piles up FAST if you start having any of it done. It is also worth noting that this is all stuff that is largely unnecessary on a modern produced sporting rifle.

What does this boil down to? Well, if you add up what I have in 1-5, you'll notice that it comes down to about $500 for the cheapest, ugliest, piece of garbage sporter you can get that is still a functional gun - and this is assuming you don't need to pay transfer fees or anything like that. Add it up. $200 rifle + $50 hacksaw stock job + ~$200 gunsmithing and optics mounts. This gun will still have the metal military butt-pad, a trigger that is OK on a military gun but lackluster at best compared to a modern one, and a barrel that has been used for an undetermined length of time and which will, even if in good shape, show some muzzle and throat erosion.

If you decide to really go whole hog and have a nice sporterization done, the sky is the limit. You can get up to $700 EASY just by adding drop-in components like a nice, adjustable trigger and having the bolt worked over to more easily clear modern glass. Recrowning or counter-boring the muzzle will add to that as well.

And at the end of the day you still, fundimentally, have a 60 year old used rifle.

On the other hand you could order a brand new Remington 700 SPS in 270 Winchester with a recoil pad from Bud's Gun Shop for $525. That's right for almost exactly what you would pay for the most piece of garbage DIY sporter job possible. Even a basic as poo poo Rem 700 will have a better barrel, nice trigger, better options for mounting optics, better ergonomics, and a more comfortable (and better, albeit not great) stock. If you start looking in the $700 price range the quality, of course, goes up really fast, but even the cheapest Rem 700 on the planet will outshoot all but the very nicest of sporterized military rifles.

This, right here, is why sporterizing military rifles is stupid in this day and age. Back in the 60s when military bolt actions were dirt cheap and sporting arms were still expensive it was a GREAT way to get a cheap deer gun. Today, however, mass produced sporting arms are in the same financial ballpark as a nice iPod or a lower-end flat screen TV. You won't save money sporterizing a military rifle, you will actually spend more over the long run and end up with something that is measurably inferior in every single way.

The ONLY way it makes sense, from a financial standpoint, to sporterize a military rifle is if you have access to a gunsmith's workshop and have the skills (REALLY have the skills - not just an assumption that you can teach yourself to drill and tap without too much hassle) and tools to do the job yourself. These skills are not common - off the top of my head I can think of maybe 5 or 6 TFR posters who could probably do a good job of this, and they are all skilled machinists or have some other form of professional training.

If you really, really need a cheap hunting rifle the most financially reasonable ones are to either buy an already sporterized gun (they can be had dirt cheap on gunbroaker - we're talking the $100-300 ballpark here) or buy a scout-mount setup for your milsurp. A scout mount from a good company like S&K will cost between $50 and $100 depending on model, be non-destructive to the rifle (they replace the rear sight leaf and sit in the rear sight base), and will work fine for killing deer.

Remember kids - sporterizing doesn't only anger the milsurp gods, it makes no financial sense in a world with Remington 700s that cost $500 NIB.

Can I shoot .308 in my 7.62 NATO rifle?. It seems we get this question at least once every six months.

The sort answer is probably not, but there's a chance you can. Either way you need to use the proper gauge to measure the headspace on your rifle for that particular cartridge to find out.

Here is a great writeup from our very own Fang that explains the issue in a pretty straight forward manner:

Fang posted:

The most important difference between .308 Winchester and 7.62x51mm NATO is the chamber in the gun. 7.62 NATO chambers are much longer than .308 Winchester, to the point that a NO-GO gauge in .308 Win is still shorter than a 7.62 NATO GO gauge. Firing .308 Winchester in a 7.62 NATO chamber is the equivalent of shooting it in a .308 Win rifle that will close the bolt on a field gauge with plenty of wiggle room left over. This is pretty much the definition of an unsafe gun/ammo combination.

7.62x51mm NATO gets away with these incredibly loose chambers because it has very thick brass. When the case flows under pressure, there are plenty of reserves at the base to ensure that enough brass remains to prevent gasses from rupturing the metal. .308 Winchester is much thinner because it's made in anticipation of a much tighter chamber; it won't have to flow much, so it trades the extra case material for higher capacity. Because of the higher capacity and the civilian powders used in many .308 cases, .308 tends to get slightly better performance than 7.62x51mm NATO.

The performance difference, plus the fact that several sources list 7.62x51mm NATO as rated around 50K PSI and .308 Winchester at 62K PSI max, has led many to conclude that .308 Winchester is loaded to a higher pressure than 7.62 NATO. In reality, the 50K PSI figure came about because of different measurement techniques and mislabeling; it's really a CUP measurement, and 50K CUP translates to about 60K PSI. The difference in performance between .308 Win and 7.62x51mm NATO come from the former's increased case capacity. The real reasons not to use .308 Winchester in a 7.62mm NATO rifle are twofold: First, .308 Winchester can damage a military semi-auto built around the more sedate ballistics and pressure curves of 7.62mm NATO. More importantly, though, 7.62x51mm NATO chambers have far too much headspace to be safe shooting .308 Winchester ammo.

I haven't been able to dig up documentation proving that .308 Winchester and 7.62x51mm NATO have the same (or nearly the same) pressure, but there's a bunch of circumstantial evidence supporting this assertion. First, refer to the documents linked from the Wikipedia page on NATO EVPAT testiong. Refer to Reference 1, Proof of Ordnance, Munitions, Armour and Explosives, Ministry of Defence Defence Standard 05-101 Part 1, page 13, where it lists a pressure of 5,190 bar as a 25% over-pressure proof round standard. 5,190 bar is 75,275 PSI, and if 75K PSI is 25% overpressure, that means the standard pressure is 60,220 PSI, slightly below SAAMI's spec of 62,000 PSI for .308 Winchester, but within a negligible 3% of the value.

Further evidence can be found in TM 43-001-27: Army Ammunition Data Sheets Small Caliber Ammunition. If you check pages 38 and 103 for the specs on M2 .30-06 ball ammo and 7.62mm ball ammo, respectively, you find both listed as "50,000 psi." Now compare that to the pressure specs published in the Speer Reloading Manual, Number 13, which lists .30-06 as 50,000 CUP. (The same manual lists .308 Winchester as having a maximum pressure of 52,000 CUP.) CUP is never equal to PSI, so one of those documents is listing the wrong unit of measurement. Given that Speer is a cartridge manufacturing company, it seems reasonable to assume they are aware of the difference between CUP and PSI. Knowledge of that difference is highly unlikely for the Army numbers, since the .30-06 cartridge was developed before the method of accurately measuring pressure in PSI using piezo transducers was used.

Finally, there's plain old logic. If .308 Winchester actually operates at 12,000 PSI higher pressure than 7.62x51mm NATO, why is it that published factory ballistics for .308 Winchester rounds are not significantly higher than the specs for 7.62mm NATO, which has a nominal velocity of 2,750 FPS at 78 feet from the muzzle for a 150-grain bullet? That's almost the pressure difference between .45 ACP and .44 Magnum.

With respect to case size, there should be little exterior dimensional difference between .308 Winchester and 7.62x51mm NATO, although I've heard of some 7.62 ammo that is on the large size for a .308 Win chamber.

Should I use windex on my guns when shooting corrosive ammo?

NO. This is covered in at least a few of the beginners guides up there, but since it comes up so often, here is a canned explanation for it. For more detailed explanation of the chemistry of primers and such try the milsurp ammo primer up there.

Cyrano4747 posted:

The whole windex thing is pure BS. It's harmless BS, but BS none the less.

Windex does absolutely nothing to "neutralize" the "corrosive" effects of corrosive-primed ammo. The problem is that "corrosive" ammo leaves behind salt compounds in the barrel and on the bolt. Salt compounds attract water, and act as a catalyst for the corrosion of iron compounds, also known as rusting.

Windex does remove those salts, but that's only because it's about 95% water. You would get the exact same benefit from pouring water down the barrel, and indeed the English Army did this for a few centuries to great effect. This does have the problem, however, of leaving water behind in the barrel. If you're going to do that method, best to use boiling or near-boiling water that will evaporate quickly.

Note: if your water is hard the evaporating water may leave behind salts, in which case you're back to square one.

Just use a basic bore cleaner like hoppes no 9 , or CLP, or non-CL brake cleaner, or any other solvent that can be applied in enough quantity to flush the salts out and you'll be fine. Windex won't actually HURT your gun, but it's basically gun owner superstition.

Cyrano4747 fucked around with this message at Jul 22, 2012 around 16:25

# ? Apr 9, 2008 03:00

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# ? May 18, 2013 22:02

CmdrRat: Jan 15, 2004; Sucks at Russian Roulette

This is as good as any place to mention that the CMP has moved up the dates for the M1s. You bitchs stay away from my IBM.

http://www.odcmp.com/rifles/carbine.htm

code:

STANDARD PRODUCTS  	$575  	Accepting orders beginning July 7, 2008.
IBM 	                $575 	Accepting orders beginning July 7, 2008.

And if you want to save $150 you can get the rack grade now.

Code:

Inland                  $419    Accepting orders
Underwood               $479    Accepting orders 
Winchester        	$575 	Accepting orders
Quality Hardware 	$479 	Accepting orders

# ? Apr 9, 2008 03:09

Cyrano4747: Sep 25, 2006; I am a closet nazi apologist.

CmdrRat posted:

This is as good as any place to mention that the CMP has moved up the dates for the M1s. You bitchs stay away from my IBM.

http://www.odcmp.com/rifles/carbine.htm
code:
STANDARD PRODUCTS  	$575  	Accepting orders beginning July 7, 2008.
IBM 	                $575 	Accepting orders beginning July 7, 2008.
And if you want to save $150 you can get the rack grade now.
Code:
Inland                  $419    Accepting orders
Underwood               $479    Accepting orders 
Winchester        	$575 	Accepting orders
Quality Hardware 	$479 	Accepting orders

I swear to loving god, if they run out of IBMs before my envelope arrives I will loving cut each and every one of you bitches.

I'm out of the country on July 6 and am making plans to have it dropped in the box stateside while I'm abroad.

# ? Apr 9, 2008 03:12

Paramemetic: Sep 29, 2003; A gift from Coyote! Nothing could possibly go wrong here!

Excellent. I was wondering when you were going to do this when I saw you make a comment somewhere about how the Mosin thread was effectively a Milsurp Megathread.

I'll get more detailed pictures of stampings on these up later on down the line.

Here's my baby, an RC J.P. Sauer & Sohn Karabiner 98k produced in Suhl, Germany in 1942. Obtained from Classic Arms, with matching essentials (bolt, receiver, barrel, etc.) but mismatched other parts.

And here's its little brother, a Mauser-Werke Oberndorf Walther P38 produced in 1943, all original finish and all matching parts.

I also have a dirty commie Mosin (1943, Izhevsk).

# ? Apr 9, 2008 03:13

DrPop: Aug 22, 2004; Right next to the Mountain Holler.

Nice idea, Cyrano. I am behind it whole-heartedly! Reading through TFR got me interested in firearms in general, and C & R firearms ended being my niche. I love this (soaked in cosmolene, possibly fatal to fire) poo poo.

To contribute, here's some sites I've been directed to via the forums or some other sources and a description.

http://www.gunsnammo.com - Great guys with great prices, mostly dealing Finnish m/39 Mosin-Nagant rifles. If you want to buy a really nice Mosin, THIS IS THE WEBSITE. They have the bottom line BEST prices you'll find on ANY m/39, and often have some really interesting oddities popping up here and there. Sometimes they carry other rifles, last I checked they had a Vz24 and an M91 there too.

http://www.7.62x54r.net - My Mosin bias is showing here, but simply another great site especially for beginners who want to immerse themselves in the sheer magnitude of milsurp variations. Good online source for in-depth collectors too (check out that m/27Rv!), and from what I hear the author is fairly active and responsive.

http://www.turkmauser.com - As the name implies, this site is a pretty good resource for info on the cheaper, neat little Turkish Mauser rifles. You can usually find these rifles for even cheaper than Mosins (!!!) so they make excellent starters.

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com - Excellent site for all things ammunition. They carry lots of new production ammo for your Japanese Type 99 suicide machine and other assorted weird things if you're like me and incompetent when it comes to reloading. Good prices, too. I'm going to go ahead and recommend the Brown Bear 7.62x54R for someone looking for a cheap, non-corrosive option for their Mosin (and possibly Dragunov).

http://www.surplusrifle.com - Good general overview of ALMOST all milsurp rifles, from Spanish 1916 Guardia Civil Mausers to AK-47s. Almost every entry has specific illustrated guides to total rifle and bolt disassembly, which is very helpful. Updated monthly. Pretty active boards, though there's some stupid people on them. Nice pics though if you just like to look at guns.

http://www.classicarms.us - Yes, yes we know you're all militant internet atheists and poo poo and hate god etc etc. Though this site is a little on the Christ side of things and has rather juvenile design, they have excellent prices on everything and great service. Tons of goons will vouch for them.

Also, if you're new, read Cyrano's posted articles on the wiki. Good poo poo.

I also need to vouch for Gewehr 43 and his company - he's great to work with and a good guy, I can't recommend him enough. Michigoons use him for all your business especially!

I guess I'll ask a question, too - since I'm going to be getting some cash flow soon, I'd like to get a new milsurp rifle. I've currently got an M91/30 and two m/39s, so I'd ideally like to move away from the Mosin design. I like collecting oddities, so I was looking at either some K31 or good condition Turk Mauser. I'm reading all over the place that K31 supplies are out - should I put any truth to this and prioritize it over the Turk, or what?

DrPop fucked around with this message at Apr 9, 2008 around 03:19

# ? Apr 9, 2008 03:16

CmdrRat: Jan 15, 2004; Sucks at Russian Roulette

Cyrano4747 posted:

I swear to loving god, if they run out of IBMs before my envelope arrives I will loving cut each and every one of you bitches. I'm out of the country on July 6 and am making plans to have it dropped in the box stateside while I'm abroad.

"Accepting orders beginning July 7, 2008"

I read that as "we'll accept orders received on", not "post marked by".

I'll be sending it 2 day air on July 5th. I'll save some money from overnighting and assure that I'll be in on the first day of the orders.

# ? Apr 9, 2008 03:23

Cyrano4747: Sep 25, 2006; I am a closet nazi apologist.

Paramemetic posted:

Excellent. I was wondering when you were going to do this when I saw you make a comment somewhere about how the Mosin thread was effectively a Milsurp Megathread.

I'll get more detailed pictures of stampings on these up later on down the line.

Here's my baby, an RC J.P. Sauer & Sohn Karabiner 98k produced in Suhl, Germany in 1942. Obtained from Classic Arms, with matching essentials (bolt, receiver, barrel, etc.) but mismatched other parts.

And here's its little brother, a Mauser-Werke Oberndorf Walther P38 produced in 1943, all original finish and all matching parts.

I also have a dirty commie Mosin (1943, Izhevsk).

Goddamn that's a fine looking stock on that K98k.

Hrm. . . and if it's "post your Mauser" time. . .

My K98k shooter, and one of my favorite rifles, my RC 1939 "42" K98k, manufactured at the Oberndorf factory. The bore's a bit dark, but the rifling's sharp and it shoots great. I've never managed to get the stock half so beautiful as Parametic's, but it's an attractive enough dark red/brown.

This one's a 1910 Erfurt Kar98a, the WW1 forerunner of what would eventually become the K98k of WW2 fame. It's sitting in a really, REALLY amazing condition K98k stock that's late-ish WW2 production. The interesting thing is that except for the stock, the bolt (which is an unnumbered, late-type K98k bolt), and the barrel bands (very late war "Kriegsmodel" type bands) it's all matching, and there's no import mark. The K98k stock is also serialed to match the receiver inside the barrel channel, in faded pencil. It could just be a Kar98a that someone replaced a broken stock with a bunch of stuff left over from sporterizing a late war K98k back in the 50s, but I've also read about the Germans digging into stocks of old, broken, obsolete guns and repairing them for issue to the Volkssturm late in the war. There's no way to prove that it's an actual WW2 re-build, but it's interesting to ponder.

I've also got a pair of Turkish mausers back in Oregon, but can't find any photos of them right now.

Oh yeah, and an Israeli ex-Nazi Mauser in 7.62NATO. . . I never have box threaded that one, I should get around to that after a few more things arrive.

Cyrano4747 fucked around with this message at Apr 9, 2008 around 03:29

# ? Apr 9, 2008 03:25

Pyruvate: Apr 4, 2008; by Y Kant Ozma Post

What can you guys tell me about the Russian Capture K98s at ClassicArms? Can 8mm Mauser ammo be expected to stay at a decent price?

# ? Apr 9, 2008 03:31

Rhandhali: Sep 7, 2003; This is Free Trader Beowulf, calling anyone...

Are there any other m1917 Eddystone fans here?

# ? Apr 9, 2008 03:36

Miso Beno: Apr 29, 2004; Try to Catch Me Ridin' Dirty

Rhandhali posted:

Are there any other m1917 Eddystone fans here?

I want an Eddystone rather badly.

# ? Apr 9, 2008 03:37

McNally: Sep 12, 2007; This space intentionally left blank

Can anyone here loan me their 8mm Mauser FIELD headspace gauge? I swear I'll give it back when I'm done!

# ? Apr 9, 2008 03:39

QuarkMartial: Sep 25, 2004; I've seen the future, and it has hooves.

I'd like to post a few photos, if that's alright. They're relevant, too.

The infamous cosmoline that we've all heard so much about. This is what was on the action of my Yugo Mauser. The best solution that I have found is hot water. Disassemble the rifle, take all the greasy metal bits outside and pour boiling water over them. Dry, oil, and reassemble.

Here are three of what I think are probably the most common milsurp rifles out there. By most common, I mean that these are generally the three rifles that milsurp collectors start with.

The top rifle is a M44 Mosin Nagant rifle from Izhevsk.
Below that is a M-48 Yugoslavian Mauser.
The bottom rifle is a K31.

I guess I'm different since I have a Yugo instead of a K98. They're, in general terms, the same rifle, right? Obviously different manufacturers and so on, but they're the same in that the K98 and the Yugo are both Mausers, right?

Side shot of all three rifle actions.

Top down shot of all three rifle actions.

Just demonstrating the different action types, especially the K31's straight pull bolt.

Artsy shot of my K31.

That's all I've got.

I would like to mention that since those photos were taken, I've reattached the Mauser's sling and cleaned the wood. I found that steam did a pretty decent job of pulling out the cosmoline and there wasn't much, if any, grain raised from doing so.

# ? Apr 9, 2008 04:03

Kaiser Schnitzel: Mar 28, 2006; I want to be like Grace Kelly.

I can't let the germans dominate this thread, so here are some pictures of MY SWEDISH MAUSER.
What a nice receiver you have.

And such a nice sight picture.

SILVER BULLATS!

WHAT IS THIS THING UPON MY STEPS?

Casey Dog is repelled by the awesome of this rifle.

Mac Dog tries his usual strategy for dealing with problems. Sit on it until it pets you.

But Kaiser? Can it hit anything?

Yes, in fact it can. Shot these at 25 yards with irons. Hit 4 out of 5 shots with surplus.

# ? Apr 9, 2008 04:06

Agrocrag: Oct 22, 2004; True love at last

Milsurp is pretty cool.

Top to bottom:
Yugo M48 shooter grade from AIM
RC BYF 1941 from AIM
K31 with tag BIG 5
Russian SKS 1954

I love my Mauser, even more so when 8mm was dirt cheap. Good thing I still have around 1500 rounds of the stuff. The action is about 10X more smooth then the m48.

And my favorite. CMP service grade SA Garand

With my Grandfather's 1902 that I am guessing had been reblued at some point.

I am sure everyone here knows this but to all the lurkers planning on buying a Mauser in the future, don't buy from Mitchell's mausers. They basically fix up yugo mausers and play it off like they are wartime German mausers. Classicarms all the way.

The only rifle that I had to clean a shitload of cosmoline off of was the yugo m48. When I opened the box from AIM it literally looked like they had shipped me a blob of cosmoline in the shape of a rifle.

Agrocrag fucked around with this message at Apr 9, 2008 around 04:12

# ? Apr 9, 2008 04:09

Pitch: Jun 16, 2005; It is a truth universally
acknowledged that an
oniichan in possession
of good fortune must be
in want of an imouto.

I recall a list of CMP-affiliated clubs which allowed joining by mail or internet. Can someone list some of these? There really aren't any around me that aren't high school JROTCs or $300-per-year hunting clubs.

# ? Apr 9, 2008 04:10

QuarkMartial: Sep 25, 2004; I've seen the future, and it has hooves.

Kaiser Schnitzel posted:

I can't let the germans dominate this thread, so here are some pictures of MY SWEDISH MAUSER.

The germans? I roll from Yugo.

Agrocrag posted:

I am sure everyone here knows this but to all the lurkers planning on buying a Mauser in the future, don't buy from Mitchell's mausers. They basically fix up yugo mausers and play it off like they are wartime German mausers. Classicarms all the way.

The only rifle that I had to clean a shitload of cosmoline off of was the yugo m48. When I opened the box from AIM it literally looked like they had shipped me a blob of cosmoline in the shape of a rifle.

Your post reminded me of something: SKSes are also really common in the milsurp world. I'm not trying to insult you or anything, but it just reminded me of the point I made in my other post. SKSes, Mosins, Mausers, and K31s are generally the starting points of milsurp collections.

My Mauser was also a block of cosmoline when I got it (see pics above). It sucked, but I think I got it all cleaned up.

And yes, stay the hell away from Mitchell's Mausers.

# ? Apr 9, 2008 04:17

Rhandhali: Sep 7, 2003; This is Free Trader Beowulf, calling anyone...

Miso Beno posted:

I want an Eddystone rather badly.

Well you can't have mine.

Seriously, they're wonderful rifles. I was fortunate enough to get one with a bore that didn't look like it was meant for buck-and-ball. I like it more than my 1903; the sights are better and it is much softer shooting. I'd say it's a better rifle in almost every way.

# ? Apr 9, 2008 04:22

Gwamp: Apr 18, 2003; Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo,

I'll chime in with everything I know about the Schmidt-Rubins and Swiss milsurp in general. It is all in this archived thread I did a while back.

http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...hreadid=2753194

If any one has any questions about Swiss milsurp, I'll be happy to answer them as best as I can.

# ? Apr 9, 2008 04:24

Agrocrag: Oct 22, 2004; True love at last

QuarkMartial posted:

My Mauser was also a block of cosmoline when I got it (see pics above). It sucked, but I think I got it all cleaned up.

It was kind of fun cleaning all the crap off my Yugo mauser. I am glad, however, that none of the other rifles were caked in the stuff and I was surprised my mosin was almost cosmoline free

# ? Apr 9, 2008 04:27

QuarkMartial: Sep 25, 2004; I've seen the future, and it has hooves.

Agrocrag posted:

It was kind of fun cleaning all the crap off my Yugo mauser. I am glad, however, that none of the other rifles were caked in the stuff and I was surprised my mosin was almost cosmoline free

It's definitely an experience and it certainly teaches you exactly how things work in a rifle. I suppose that's the upside to milsurp is that the "starter" rifles are easy to take apart and see how everything works, which makes it easier when you get into more involved guns.

Edit: vvv Yeah, I do the same as well, but I will admit that it's easier with milsurp. I don't know if it's because bolt action rifles are a little bit more simple or if there is no worry about messing up something expensive. I'm leaning towards the latter, myself.

QuarkMartial fucked around with this message at Apr 9, 2008 around 04:37

# ? Apr 9, 2008 04:31

Kaiser Schnitzel: Mar 28, 2006; I want to be like Grace Kelly.

With all my guns, milsurp or not, one of the first things I do is a detail strip to learn how it works. Makes shooting them make so much more sense.

# ? Apr 9, 2008 04:33

GodlessCommie: Apr 4, 2008

If you want to get into C&R collecting get a C&R FFL. For $30 you get three years of having all the rifles/pistols/shotguns shipped right to your front door. If you're 21 and haven't failed a NICS background check, you can get your C&R FFL. The hardest part of the application is figuring out who you're chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) is if you live in the middle of nowhere.

The first firearms you should get right now with your new C&R are:
CZ-82 - Czech pistol made until the late '80s. You can thank the curator of the firearms museum at West Point for getting that one on the C&R list

Swiss K-31 - Yeah the ammo is loving expensive but the rifle is way more accurate than any other rifle in its price range (both milsurp and commercial). Don't pay more than $300 for one unless it's in super excellent condition. Also get one with matching numbers which shouldn't be hard to find.

Yugo SKS - You used to be able to get these in excellent condition for under $200. Now you have to pay $230 - $250 for one in the same condition. Get one now!

Enfield SMLE - You need the rifle of the British Empire. The ammo is still fairly cheap as are the rifles. Only pay more than $250 if it's still in the mummy wrap or in super fine condition.

Mosin-Nagant rifle - Skip the Soviet models unless you find something rare. Get a Finnish one since they aren't being imported again. The Finn Mosins are the most accurate Mosins.

Tokarev pistol - A bunch came in recently and sell for under $250 if you look. Ammo is also dirt cheap right now

Russian Capture (RC) Mauser - If you've ever wanted a Nazi rifle, get one of these. Do a little research on the arsenal codes to get a rifle made in a factory or, if you want the full Nazi experience, find the arsenal codes for the slave labor camps. You can still find 8mm ammo for under $.30 if you look. Reloading for this rifle might be a good idea.

Firearms to Avoid as a Beginner
Nagant pistol - It's ugly, the ammo is pricey, and the DA trigger pull is horrendous.

FR-8 - It's a Spanish mauser converted to 7.62x51 Nato. The receiver is too weak for normal .308 ammo so you're stuck with surplus (which is too expensive for what it is) or reloading.

Italian Carcano in 7.35mm - There hasn't been any of this ammo imported or made since the 1970s. I think cyrano and I are the only ones on this board who own one of these. I do suggest getting one in 6.5mm though. That ammo is easier to find and it's the same caliber Oswald used to cap Kennedy.

Non-CMP Garands - Unless you do a ton of research on these, you'll be hosed. I do suggest getting a CMP one in Service Grade.

Any firearm costing more than $500 - Like the Garands, if you don't do tons of research, you'll be hosed over by the seller.

GodlessCommie fucked around with this message at Apr 9, 2008 around 05:17

# ? Apr 9, 2008 05:11

Cyrano4747: Sep 25, 2006; I am a closet nazi apologist.

Pyruvate posted:

What can you guys tell me about the Russian Capture K98s at ClassicArms? Can 8mm Mauser ammo be expected to stay at a decent price?

Classic Arms is a great organization, and a classy group of people, regardless of their lovely web design or their need to tell me about junior league softball and jesus while I'm browsing it. I've had nothing but good experiences from it and I've sent probably 10 or so various goons and lurkers who've IM/PM'd me about RCs over to them and heard nothing but rave reviews. They describe their rifles quite well and very honestly. If you want any help reading over their stock and figuring out what you want, feel free to ask here or IM me. My AIM's in my profile.

As far as the availability of 8mm Mauser, it's dried up pretty badly in recent months. There's some Serbian sniper ammo on the market right now that's about $.33/rd and VERY excellent ammo. Beyond that you can still find the old 50s Yugo surplus at gunshows now and again. If you see it for under $.20/rd stock up. They're great rifles, however, and there's plenty of bargain brand FMJ available in reloadable brass for around $.50/rd, so you'll never flat out run out of shootable ammo. It's also a great round to lean how to reload on.

QuarkMartial posted:

I guess I'm different since I have a Yugo instead of a K98. They're, in general terms, the same rifle, right? Obviously different manufacturers and so on, but they're the same in that the K98 and the Yugo are both Mausers, right?

The Yugo M48 and M48a are slightly different from the K98k. The biggest differences are the handguard (K98k starts after the rear sight, M48 starts right at the receiver) and the fact that the M48 has a slightly different length action. I forget which one is longer, but it's something like a 2mm difference - just enough that the bolts aren't interchangable. The two designs ARE very, very similar and the Yugo is an excellent way to scratch the carbine length Mauser itch with a inexpensive, highly accurate rifle in great condition.

Agrocrag posted:

I am sure everyone here knows this but to all the lurkers planning on buying a Mauser in the future, don't buy from Mitchell's mausers. They basically fix up yugo mausers and play it off like they are wartime German mausers. Classicarms all the way.

Mitchell's Mausers are the prime evil of the milsurp world. THEY are the Great Satan. Don't patronize them and tell all your friends who might be buying milsurp that they're the biggest set of cheats and liers out there.

Pitch posted:

I recall a list of CMP-affiliated clubs which allowed joining by mail or internet. Can someone list some of these? There really aren't any around me that aren't high school JROTCs or $300-per-year hunting clubs.

There's a little applet up on the CMP's website where you can search for affiliated organizations near you. That said, the easiest route is to just get a membership with the Garand Collector's Association. They've got a webpage, google the name. They're a CMP affiliated organization and all you need to join is fill out a form you can download and pay $20/yr in membership dues. You also get a pretty decent newsletter with all sorts of interesting facts and random information about Garands. It makes pretty decent bathroom literature if nothing else.

QuarkMartial posted:

It's definitely an experience and it certainly teaches you exactly how things work in a rifle. I suppose that's the upside to milsurp is that the "starter" rifles are easy to take apart and see how everything works, which makes it easier when you get into more involved guns.

Cleaning up a cosmolene soaked rifle is a right of passage for the milsurper. There are those who know the ways of cosmolene and those who don't.

Giving a cosmolene infested rifle is the best way to learn all the techniques of gentle, non-destructive restoration that you'll need when you step up to more expensive, collectable guns, all on a rifle that you won't hate yourself if you do something really horrible to it (not that you would if you follow people's advice on cleaning techniques and general restoration work).

GodlessCommie posted:

If you want to get into C&R collecting get a C&R FFL. For $30 you get three years of having all the rifles/pistols/shotguns shipped right to your front door. If you're 21 and haven't failed a NICS background check, you can get your C&R FFL. The hardest part of the application is figuring out who you're chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) is if you live in the middle of nowhere.

The first firearms you should get right now with your new C&R are:
CZ-82 - Czech pistol made until the late '80s. You can thank the curator of the firearms museum at West Point for getting that one on the C&R list

Swiss K-31 - Yeah the ammo is loving expensive but the rifle is way more accurate than any other rifle in its price range (both milsurp and commercial). Don't pay more than $300 for one unless it's in super excellent condition. Also get one with matching numbers which shouldn't be hard to find.

Yugo SKS - You used to be able to get these in excellent condition for under $200. Now you have to pay $230 - $250 for one in the same condition. Get one now!

Enfield SMLE - You need the rifle of the British Empire. The ammo is still fairly cheap as are the rifles. Only pay more than $250 if it's still in the mummy wrap or in super fine condition.

Mosin-Nagant rifle - Skip the Soviet models unless you find something rare. Get a Finnish one since they aren't being imported again. The Finn Mosins are the most accurate Mosins.

Tokarev pistol - A bunch came in recently and sell for under $250 if you look. Ammo is also dirt cheap right now

Russian Capture (RC) Mauser - If you've ever wanted a Nazi rifle, get one of these. Do a little research on the arsenal codes to get a rifle made in a factory or, if you want the full Nazi experience, find the arsenal codes for the slave labor camps. You can still find 8mm ammo for under $.30 if you look. Reloading for this rifle might be a good idea.

Firearms to Avoid as a Beginner
Nagant pistol - It's ugly, the ammo is pricey, and the DA trigger pull is horrendous.

FR-8 - It's a Spanish mauser converted to 7.62x51 Nato. The receiver is too weak for normal .308 ammo so you're stuck with surplus (which is too expensive for what it is) or reloading.

Italian Carcano in 7.35mm - There hasn't been any of this ammo imported or made since the 1970s. I think cyrano and I are the only ones on this board who own one of these. I do suggest getting one in 6.5mm though. That ammo is easier to find and it's the same caliber Oswald used to cap Kennedy.

Non-CMP Garands - Unless you do a ton of research on these, you'll be hosed. I do suggest getting a CMP one in Service Grade.

Any firearm costing more than $500 - Like the Garands, if you don't do tons of research, you'll be hosed over by the seller.

This is generally correct, but:

Enfields can certainly run more than $300 if it's a more interesting rifle than your run of the mill WW2 refurbed Maltbey. Like all rifles there's an entire spectrum of desirable features, both from a shooting and a collecting standpoint. If all you want is a shootable enfield yes, $300 should be about your upper limit. But if you're really interested in a specific type (WW1 vintage guns that haven't been refurbed, snipers, non-Indian wire-wrapped guns, etc.) it might run you a bit more - you should look around the internet and do some research if your interests lie in that direction.

Soviet Mosins are a great place for the beginning collector to start. Yes, the Finn Mosins are more accurate and, all things being equal, are better guns for the money. You can, however, pick up a Soviet Mosin for under $100 and can frequently do so at sporting goods stores and pawn shops near your house, without ordering online. They're fine beginner guns and a GREAT way to learn the general rules of cleaning and caring for a milsurp rifle. They're also full of random stamps, proofs, and inspection marks and it's a HELL of a lot of fun decyphering them to figure out a bit of the history of your rifle.

Nagant pistol - it is what it is. It's an interesting (both mechanically and history-wise) milsurp pistol that costs less than $100. Yes, the ammo's hard to get if you don't order it online, but you can order replacement cylinders to fire .38 out of it. It's not a pistol to get if you're needing a home defense piece, and it's not something to get if you want a range gun that you'll shoot every weekend. It's a decent entry to milsurp pistol collecting, however, and the first pistol I'll get once I get my CHL and can bypass North Carolina's stupid pistol purchase laws.

Carcanos - yeah, just avoid these alltogether unless you're REALLY into collecting and not shooting or already have a stockpile of shootable guns. Even the 6.5 Carcano ammo is hard to get these days. It's an interesting gun to expand your collection to include once you've covered some other major bases, but really not all that interesting in most cases - either historically or as a shooter - for the beginning collector.

Non-CMP Garands/milsurp over $500 - yeah, stick with the CMP if you want a Garand unless you know your poo poo and are into collecting that particular rifle in a big way (where the hell has Steel Trap been, btw?)

As far as expensive milsurp goes, you need to do your research and know your poo poo before walking down that path. I've been doing this for a bit now and I just barely feel competent to buy an expensive K98k if one crosses my path. You need to be able to spot stuff like renumbered gun parts and other ways of faking an "all matching" gun - which entails having a general "feel" for stuff like what kind of fonts were used by various manufacturers - what kind of finishes were correct for that rifle, and what the general production history was. I'm just now seriously looking for a G/K43 and I've been reading about them and lurking the living hell out of a forum specific to that gun for about a year now.

also: If you want to collect milsurp beyond getting one or two guns GET YOUR C&R. It is an easy process, costs $30, and will make your life infinitely easier.

# ? Apr 9, 2008 06:00

Blistex: Oct 30, 2003; "When I see someone tilting my tables, I shoot the Bastard. That's my policy!"

Most everything regarding the cosmo and refinishing process has been covered, so I'll move on to the only other thing I can contribute to with regards to milsurps.

Putting some glass on that safe queen: or "How to scope it and not be a fudd!"

When I first got my K-98 I was thrilled with it, and loved the irons and all that jaz. Then they arrived! Deer, they were everywhere and usually just out of irons range for me. That's when I decided I wanted to not only shoot deer with my milsurp, but do so with some glass. I asked around and for the most part people said, "you're going to have to drill that sucker, or buy this mount that requires you to take a notch out of the stock". Not wanting to ruin my rifle or give up I googled on and found this place. . .

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

S&K mounts: http://www.scopemounts.com/instaprice.html
They offer "insta mounts" that do not permanently alter the rifle, are in fact high quality and surprisingly hold their zero just fine. Most of them replace the rear leaf sight assembly. All you do is take off the flip up part of the sight, then slide in the mount and attach the rings and scope. I managed to get mine installed in under 10 minutes, and zeroed in about 5-7 shots.

S&K offer two types of mounts. Weaver and their own S&K flavour. I picked up the S&K version for half price off of eBay since it's a little more low profile and I don't need to be slapping eotechs or aimpoints on it.

Behold! The same K-98 with standard irons, an S&K instamount with a scope, and then irons again. Those pictures must be in the wrong order! Right?

2005..................................2006..................................2007

I can take the mount off and have the irons on in 5 minutes, or vice-versa.

Ok, now I know what you're going to say, "Wasn't you ugly mug in goons.jp.... I mean what if I don't own a very popular and common K-98 mauser? What the gently caress am I going to do you high-falooting bastard?"

Instamounts are avaliable for the following milsurps... but only in scout setup.

Mosin Nagant 91/30 & 91/59

Mosin Nagant M44 & M38

K98 Mauser

Turkish Mauser
Carl Gustafs Mauser
Husqvarna Mauser
Finnish M39
Czech 98/22
Yugo 48
Chilean Mauser

Japanese Arisaka

1903 Springfield

Schmidt Rubin K-31

Schmidt Rubin 1911

They offer instamounts for a lot of milsurps that don't require long eye-relief scopes, that sit above the bolt like normal mounts, but some of them do require a little altering to the stock, or maybe drilling or something. Be sure to read up on the specific model you want and email them about the process involved. (end of S&K ad)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

B-Square: Sight mounts http://www.b-square.com/

Similar to the S&K with the replacement of the rear sight assembly for a few rifles, but IMO their mounts are a little unsightly or akward looking. The problem with them is that they will try and pass off a sight as "gunsmith free installation: but you might have to drill and tap a hole in your receiver. Be sure to read and email to make sure their mounts don't require drilling or some other alteration.

They have mounts avaliable for the following milsurps, and seem to be better than S&K if you want regular eye relief mounts or if you want to scope allied rifles.

Mauser 96 Swedish (small ring)

Mauser 98 German (large ring)

Mosin Nagant 44

SKS 56 (bolts over receiver cover)

Enfield 1917 / P14

SMLE MK 1 #4, #5
SMLE MKIII #1 [.303 cal]
SMLE MK III 2A .308 cal Receiver Mount
SMLE MK III 2A [.308 cal]

Springfield 1903, 1903 A 3

Springfield M-1A, M14 (receiver mount)
Springfield M-1 Garand (rec mount)
Springfield .30 M-1 Carbine Receiver mount

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ati I'm not sure about these guys, they say "no gunsmithing" but I'm pretty sure their idea of no gunsmithing is taking a dremel to your stock to remove wood around the bolt area or buying a Home Depot drill-tap set.

# ? Apr 9, 2008 06:02

Cyrano4747: Sep 25, 2006; I am a closet nazi apologist.

Blistex posted:

awesome poo poo about non-destructive scope mounts

All of this is 100% spot-on. S&K and B-Square are the two big names in the milsurp scoping business and their non-destructive mounts won't gently caress up your rifle in any way. I had a S&K mount on my K31 for almost two years and it worked great.

There are a couple other names to be aware of, however:

St. Marie: These guys make a really nice mount for the K31 that isn't long eye relief. It clamps on to the receiver and lets you use a normal rifle scope. A few goons have them and here, as on other boards devoted specifically ot the k31, they receive rave reviews.

Iron Elite: These guys used to be really respected in the Mauser scoping set. They had all sorts of nifty mounts, including ones that would let you put a "normal" scope on a K98k without any drilling or tapping. Unfortunately they went out of business, but if you can find one of their mounts on Ebay or Gunbroker they're really nice, quality mounts.

# ? Apr 9, 2008 06:09

Paramemetic: Sep 29, 2003; A gift from Coyote! Nothing could possibly go wrong here!

What do we know about M1895 Steyr-Mannlicher rifles? I am interested eventually in one of these (perhaps slightly more than I'm interested in a Danish/Norse Krag Jorgensen) but I don't know about their availability in the US, standard costs, or hell, what the eat - I know they eat an 8mm round but I'm unclear on if it's 7.92x57 IS / 8mm Mauser or if it's another Mauser variant. Does anyone have any information on these?

# ? Apr 9, 2008 06:44

CrackyMcZap: Oct 17, 2004; Do you guys have any idea how much kinetic energy a pound of tannerite has?

Cyrano4747 posted:

Nagant pistol - it is what it is. It's an interesting (both mechanically and history-wise) milsurp pistol that costs less than $100. Yes, the ammo's hard to get if you don't order it online, but you can order replacement cylinders to fire .38 out of it.

.32 ACP.

# ? Apr 9, 2008 07:00

hangedman: Dec 20, 2003; Fish out of water

Serious question for Cyrano: do you own any firearms that you bought factory new (or those that were made after 1980)?

You must hear the siren song of a brand-new AR-15 every once in a while, surely.

# ? Apr 9, 2008 07:03

mikerock: Oct 29, 2005; I know what you want. I know what you need.

Here's some of my milsurp. I don't have the Lee-Enfield on the left anymore and the one on the right is a Chinese knock-off, but it goes Left to Right;

Lee-Enfield (No1 MkIII BSA 1911)
Oberndorf produced Swede M96 mauser from 1900
Carl Gustav produced Swede AG-42B Ljungman from 1943
Izhevsk produced SVT-40 from 1940
Brno produced Czech CZ-52/57 from 1957
Chinese crap

I now have a RC 98k, a 91/30 Mosin, a CZ-52, as well as this:

My Nazi Hi-Power

# ? Apr 9, 2008 07:06

Kthulhu5000: Jul 25, 2006; It's like if George R.R Martin & E. L. James had a baby. A big retardo baby conceived from a horrible S&M session gone awry.

(The safe word was Crabshucker)

Paramemetic posted:

What do we know about M1895 Steyr-Mannlicher rifles? I am interested eventually in one of these (perhaps slightly more than I'm interested in a Danish/Norse Krag Jorgensen) but I don't know about their availability in the US, standard costs, or hell, what the eat - I know they eat an 8mm round but I'm unclear on if it's 7.92x57 IS / 8mm Mauser or if it's another Mauser variant. Does anyone have any information on these?

I can tell you that the M1895s shoot the 8x56R Mannlicher caliber. Pretty uncommon, and most of the surplus in that caliber has apparently dried up. Price for the rifles? My local Big 5 was advertising them for $80 last week, and AIM Surplus has them in very good condition for $90 (less shipping and transfer fees and so forth).

M1895 availability isn't too bad, and finding stripper clips for them shouldn't be too hard, if you dig around the net enough.

They are straight pull bolt-action guns and hold five rounds in the magazine. From my perspective, they are only a good buy if (a) you have a lot of 8x56R ammo or (b) are willing to handload and reload 8x56R or, finally, (c) just want one to satiate the collectors' urge.

# ? Apr 9, 2008 07:07

Jedi425: Dec 6, 2002; THOU ART THEE ART THOU STICK YOUR HAND IN THE TV DO IT DO IT DO IT

Pitch posted:

I recall a list of CMP-affiliated clubs which allowed joining by mail or internet. Can someone list some of these? There really aren't any around me that aren't high school JROTCs or $300-per-year hunting clubs.

I have the same problem in my area, but I'm not in a hurry since I'm still waiting for the feds to get finished reading my freaking C&R application and mail me the license.

When I get it, though, I want to buy a Garand from the CMP, so I'm interested in this question as well.

# ? Apr 9, 2008 07:07

Cyrano4747: Sep 25, 2006; I am a closet nazi apologist.

Kthulhu5000 posted:

I can tell you that the M1895s shoot the 8x56R Mannlicher caliber. Pretty uncommon, and most of the surplus in that caliber has apparently dried up. Price for the rifles? My local Big 5 was advertising them for $80 last week, and AIM Surplus has them in very good condition for $90 (less shipping and transfer fees and so forth).

M1895 availability isn't too bad, and finding stripper clips for them shouldn't be too hard, if you dig around the net enough.

They are straight pull bolt-action guns and hold five rounds in the magazine. From my perspective, they are only a good buy if (a) you have a lot of 8x56R ammo or (b) are willing to handload and reload 8x56R or, finally, (c) just want one to satiate the collectors' urge.

The m95 is one of those rifles like the Carcano that's so cheap precisely because ammo is so scarce for it. If you handload, though, you can re-form 7.62x54r brass for it.

Jedi425 posted:

I have the same problem in my area, but I'm not in a hurry since I'm still waiting for the feds to get finished reading my freaking C&R application and mail me the license.

When I get it, though, I want to buy a Garand from the CMP, so I'm interested in this question as well.

Join the Garand Collector's Association. $25/year, you get a neat monthly magazine, and it counts as a CMP organization.

hangedman posted:

Serious question for Cyrano: do you own any firearms that you bought factory new (or those that were made after 1980)?

You must hear the siren song of a brand-new AR-15 every once in a while, surely.

I've currently got one rifle that I bought NIB - my Tula TOZ in .22LR. Then again, half the reason I bought it was that it's a high quality .22LR rifle that was made at the Tula plant that we all know and love from our Mosins and SKSs, plus it kinda looks and breaks down like a Mosin.

I also have a SIG p6/225 W. German police pistol that, while used, was manufactured in 1981.

Eventually I'll be able to add a Romanian G kit AK to the list. I've got a parts kit sitting in my closet waiting for a receiver and a lazy weekend.

I am planning on getting an AR or some kind of bona fide EBR eventually, but that's something that's on the back burner. Next time I go to a gun show I might pick up a stripped lower since they're cheap and available right now.

# ? Apr 9, 2008 10:59

Gewehr 43: Aug 25, 2003; by Y Kant Ozma Post

German Milsurp!
(2006 Edition)

German Milsurp!
(2007 Edition)

More German Milsurp!

I'll second Cyrano on this. If you're interested in C&R guns, get your C&R. Mine saved me several thousand dollars in transfer fees over the years. Hell, at the rates most shops are charging, saving even one transfer fee makes the C&R pay for itself.

Also, if anyone is interested, I have a trio of russian capture K98k's for sale at http://www.southernmichiganarms.com My prices might seem a wee bit higher than classic arms' but note that mine include shipping.

Gewehr 43 fucked around with this message at Apr 9, 2008 around 12:34

# ? Apr 9, 2008 12:30

Rhandhali: Sep 7, 2003; This is Free Trader Beowulf, calling anyone...

mikerock posted:

Chinese crap

Tell me about this Chinese crap.

# ? Apr 9, 2008 12:59

Cyrano4747: Sep 25, 2006; I am a closet nazi apologist.

Here's a little milsurp cautionary tale that shows the importance of researching any gun you're not familiar with. . .

A few days ago I was messing around gunbroker and I came across this auction for an Italian Carcano cavalry carbine chambered in 8mm Mauser. I had heard here and there that the Germans converted a number of captured/seized Italian rifles for their own security forces after the Italians pulled out of the war and they occupied the northern half of the country. They seem like interesting rifles, historically speaking, and I've always had a bizarre love for crazy ad-hoc conversions.

Well, looking at the photos a lot of things just seemed "off" to me. I'd never seen a Waffenampt stamp, for example, that just had the WaA number without an eagle above it. I'd also never run across "WaA03" and was having trouble finding any info on it in any of my books. The eagle stamp on the wood also looks nothing like any other Nazi cartouche I've ever seen (you really don't see swastika carrying eagles alone on stocks - they tend to be in a waffenampt or a heeresampt of some kind) and it looked WAY too sharp for a 60 year old cartouche. Finally, the receiver looks somewhat polished in the photo of the receiver, and while I could see a post-war regime scrubbing marks from a receiver it seemed a little out of character for an "end of days" Nazi factory.

Since gunbroker auctions go away after a while I'm rehosting some of the key photos so you can see what I'm talking about. . .

The gun:

The mystery WaA:

The cartouche:

The top of the receiver:

Since anything that was ever touched by a Nazi is a cesspit of forgery and I already had concerns I decided to do some extra research on this type of gun. In the process I found out that there WERE 8mm conversions done by the German firm Krieghoff towards the end of the war. The only problem is that there were only aobut 5,000 rifles made and they're rather rare in the US. There WERE, however, a bunch of post-war conversions done by the Italians, both for domestic use and foreign use (mostly by the Egyptians who were trying to get as many guns in 8mm Mauser to throw against the Israelis as they could). Remember how I said the receiver on the gun in the auction looked suspiciously shiny? Apparently the Egyptian contract guns were scrubbed of Italian markings. There were also other details, such as the lack or presence of a notch in the receiver to let 8mm be loaded via stripper clips, that the photos in the auction were composed specifically to leave out.

I also found out that a few years ago a WHOLE BUNCH of those Italian 8mm conversions came to the US and, shortly after they all disappeared off the market, a firm called "The Hunter's Lodge" was selling "WW2 Italian North Africa Nazi Carcanos!!!" for cheap with some suspiciously crisp "German" stamps on them. They also used the cavalry carbines for their "Nazi" rifles, while the real Nazi 8mm conversions were done on m91 rifles and m38 carbines, not the cav. carbines with the bayonet.

It turns out that The Hunter's Lodge is basically the Mitchels Mausers of Carcano collecting and there were plenty of Carcano specific and general milsurp boards with Carcano guys spitting fire about these "late war 8mm conversion" mausers.

Put simply, with a bit of research I was able to confirm my gut suspicions that the markings on this rifle looked a bit off and a little too crisp for late-war German markings and save myself at least $150 on a faked rifle.

Remember: be wary of anything that looks too good, especially if you're buying off gunbroker or from an individual or at a gunshow. Do your research, especially if you're getting into Nazi stuff, and know what is and isn't right for the gun you're interested in. It doesn't take long - the whole process I described above took me about half an hour of googling around late at night right before I went to bed. A minimum of self-education and research will save you a LOT of money in the milsurp game, as well as let you spot truly good deals that have been overlooked by others (anyone who's scored a Finn Mosin in a pawnshop for under $100 knows about this).

# ? Apr 9, 2008 13:14

GodlessCommie: Apr 4, 2008

Cyrano4747 posted:

<snip> be careful what you buy <snip>

A good rule is to research the hell out of anything "Nazi". Almost all the collector Nazi stuff you see have fake parts in it. Also be wary of people pushing russian captured mausers as "bring-backs". A good way to catch if it's a RC is looking at the bolt. All the RC mausers have blued bolts that look purple. The Nazis never did this and left theirs in the white.

# ? Apr 9, 2008 13:56

Cyrano4747: Sep 25, 2006; I am a closet nazi apologist.

GodlessCommie posted:

A good rule is to research the hell out of anything "Nazi". Almost all the collector Nazi stuff you see have fake parts in it. Also be wary of people pushing russian captured mausers as "bring-backs". A good way to catch if it's a RC is looking at the bolt. All the RC mausers have blued bolts that look purple. The Nazis never did this and left theirs in the white.

Eh, this is only semi-true. RC bolts will have the same black russian "blue" as the rest of the gun, a coating which will wear through and show bare metal through it quite quickly with even moderate use.

The Nazis did leave their mausers in the white, however a plum or purple colored extractor is normal on any WW2 era Mauser. They used a slightly different alloy on the extractors for some reason (I think it had something to do with needing a harder metal for it) that, as it ages, turns that purple color.

This is normal. There are countless bona fide bringbacks with purple extractors.

# ? Apr 9, 2008 14:02

lilspooky: Mar 21, 2006

3 questions!

1. Where should I look for a Lee-Enfield Smelly?

2. Is it a requirement that you have competed in some kind of tournament / shooting match in order to be able to order from CMP? Scope mentioned this to me.

3. What can you tell me about Tokarevs?

# ? Apr 9, 2008 14:07

Millow: Apr 30, 2006; Pleazy Worky Outzy

I see much milsurp faggotry in my future. My new 81/30 should be here by the end of the week, and I've got a SKS on backorder.

# ? Apr 9, 2008 14:43

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# ? May 18, 2013 22:02

Rodrigo Diaz: Apr 16, 2007; Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

How tough are Mosin M91s to come by, and how much should I expect to pay for one? I'll go for a 91/30 if it's more than 700 but I don't think Nicholas II would ever forgive me if I took the anti-Tsarist weapon first.

Rodrigo Diaz fucked around with this message at Apr 9, 2008 around 14:50

# ? Apr 9, 2008 14:46

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