Milsurp Megathread: if it ain't C&R, it ain't shit

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > The Firing Range > Milsurp Megathread: if it ain't C&R, it ain't shit

Groda: Mar 17, 2005

CmdrRat posted:

Now is as good as any time to tell you that if I wasn't straight I'd be gay for you. I really scan threads looking for your long, informative posts.

Thanks.

Seriously. I flail my arms like a little school girl every time I scroll down and see one of his walls of text in a milsurp thread.

# ? Apr 21, 2008 05:16

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# ? May 25, 2013 16:08

Miso Beno: Apr 29, 2004; Try to Catch Me Ridin' Dirty

Own an Authentic Piece of Milsurp History! (Today is you get two for the price of one!)

That's right, I own 2 M91/30s for no particularly good reason. One of these unique pieces of history has been counter bored, and the other one has a gutter bore. I sure win at Russian Mosins. (Good thing the pair cost me $50.)

Miso Beno fucked around with this message at Apr 21, 2008 around 07:12

# ? Apr 21, 2008 07:09

Gewehr 43: Aug 25, 2003; by Y Kant Ozma Post

Cyrano4747 posted:

Yeah, they are. They're generally in pretty damned good condition. Numbers might not match, but it should be a functional gun. They can also (usually) be had for a little less. The only real difference is that they stamped the VoPo (Volkspolietzei) sunburst on them in a couple of places.

If you're getting a shooter make sure to spend the extra $150 or so on the Apfeltor shooters kit so you don't blow out your gas system or beat the receiver to death.

I'm in the middle of a G/K43 hunt myself, although I think I might have a line on a decent shooter. That said, getting a VoPo rifle would actually appeal a bit more to me - as far as I'm concerned it's just added layers of history. Nazi AND Commie E. German "we're not an army, really, we're still abiding by the Potsdam accords!" civil defense rifle? Sign me right the gently caress up.

If you're serious about looking for a G/K43 start reading this forum to learn how to spot the fake poo poo and get a feel for prices. You should also probably pick up a copy of Hitler's Garands: German Self-Loading Rifles of WWII. Again, this will help you learn what's right for all the various permutations of G/K43s out there and help you spot stuff that's been "touched up" to be worth a bit more. Even if you're just looking for a shooter you should still educate yourself so you know what you're buying.

Yes, it's a $40 or so book. You're looking to buy a rifle that's going to cost you at least $1500 and more like $2000 (and even upward to $3000-4000 if you decide to get a nicer, collectible one). Spend the money on the book to educate yourself so you don't get taken to the cleaners.

To give you a little idea, I've been in the process of researching and educating myself about these guns for a bit over a year now, and I'm just now getting to the point where I'm hopefully making a purchase this summer.

Edit: I know I probably don't have to say this, but the G/K43 forum isn't quite as. . . obscenity prone as TFR is and I don't think they'd "get" any of the humor that we take for granted here. Just FYI and all that.

This and ask questions. Lots and lots of questions. I'm not an expert on G/K's - especially the sniper variants (hello, minefield!) - but I've handled enough, shot enough, repaired enough, and restored enough of them to have a pretty good feel for what I'm looking at. It should be fairly obvious by now that I enjoy talking about my favorite German autoloader, so feel free to ask questions.

Once I get over this goddamned stomach bug and can stray from the can for more than a few seconds (t

t whatever the gently caress is wrong with my innards!) I'll try to post some pics of a VoPo K43 I used to own. Neat gun. Now back to my perch.

Gewehr 43 fucked around with this message at Apr 21, 2008 around 10:58

# ? Apr 21, 2008 10:56

Cyrano4747: Sep 25, 2006; American planes, full of holes and wounded men, took off backwards from an airfield in England. Over France, a few German fighter planes flew at them backwards, sucked bullets and shell fragments from some of the planes and crewmen. They did the same for wrecked American bombers on the ground.

Gewehr 43 posted:

This and ask questions. Lots and lots of questions. I'm not an expert on G/K's - especially the sniper variants (hello, minefield!) - but I've handled enough, shot enough, repaired enough, and restored enough of them to have a pretty good feel for what I'm looking at.

I just want to emphasize this for anyone looking at getting into truly collectible milsurp. When a man as knowledgeable about a gun as Gewehr43 is about his namesake flat up states that he's not an expert that should give you a bit of a feel for how much there really is to learn about this hobby. More importantly, as Gewehr43 pointed out, a LOT of it comes down to gut feeling and "feel" after you've looked at enough examples of what you're interested in, especially when it comes to spotting fakes. I've got a pretty good grip on what German serial number fonts look like and how the surface geometries of parts get changed when old ones are scrubbed off, but most of the time it comes down to looking at a gun and saying "this just doesn't feel right."

And I'm a complete and utter noob when it comes to stuff like that. There's guys over on the G/K43 forum who look at gunbroker auctions for a few minutes and rattle off a laundry list of what's incorrect, what's been altered, why the finish doesn't look quite right, and even offer up a whole host of ideas on how the fake was probably accomplished.

This doesn't mean, however, that you should get intimidated by it and just swear off the nice stuff. Ask the opinions of people who know a little more and get some help in finding something that's nice, honest, and priced fairly. Even if you jsut want one example of a particular rifle and don't want to get into learning all the collector intricacies of the model you can usually find someone to help you find something that will make you happy without getting ripped off. Use the collecting community. It's the best resource you'll ever find.

# ? Apr 21, 2008 11:16

Aurune: Jun 17, 2006

Cyrano4747 posted:

I just want to emphasize this for anyone looking at getting into truly collectible milsurp. ... ...

Might I add with anything that is suppose to have any history attached to it. Here's a Garand from gun broker. See if you can spot the problem.

I didn't spot this one, the Jouster guys did.

The front of the receiver is a year younger than the serial on the rear half. The heat lot does not match the serial, hence it's a reweld receiver.

# ? Apr 21, 2008 15:07

Illegal Clown: Feb 18, 2004

Aurune posted:

Might I add with anything that is suppose to have any history attached to it. Here's a Garand from gun broker. See if you can spot the problem.

I didn't spot this one, the Jouster guys did.

The front of the receiver is a year younger than the serial on the rear half. The heat lot does not match the serial, hence it's a reweld receiver.

That's interesting. I just checked my Garand and noticed that the numbers don't match as well. When I got it I was told the barrel was from 1951, but after doing some research on manufacturers I learned the rifle was made in the mid 1950's. Well the barrel WAS made in October of 1951, but the receiver was made later. The numbers on the rest of the receiver also don't match the back of the receiver.

# ? Apr 21, 2008 19:22

Gewehr 43: Aug 25, 2003; by Y Kant Ozma Post

I don't know the intricacies of the M1, but I don't believe Aurune is implying that the serials on the rear of the receiver and the numbers in the other photo should "match." At least in the traditional "the same number" sense.

I believe certain heat lots correspond with certain serial numbers, and on the rifle in question, the heat lot range falls outside of what could be considered appropriate for the receiver's serial range.

I think.

# ? Apr 21, 2008 19:29

Illegal Clown: Feb 18, 2004

Gewehr 43 posted:

I don't know the intricacies of the M1, but I don't believe Aurune is implying that the serials on the rear of the receiver and the numbers in the other photo should "match." At least in the traditional "the same number" sense.

I believe certain heat lots correspond with certain serial numbers, and on the rifle in question, the heat lot range falls outside of what could be considered appropriate for the receiver's serial range.

I think.

That's what I thought he meant, in that they should have at least been made in the same year. I'm not sure how the heat lots are numbered because on mine it is higher than receiver numbers, but all I really know how to do is check barrel and receiver dates.

# ? Apr 21, 2008 19:50

Aurune: Jun 17, 2006

A Garand reciever is a single hunk of metal. Unlike a Ar-15. The barrel is replacable obviously. What I wanted to point out is these numbers that seem to mean nothing (the heat lot code) are part of the same reciever that according to the serial number left SA a year before the metal for it was melted. How did this happen? The answer is that this reciever was made from 2 hunks of M1 reciever sold by the army as scrap. Needless to say "rewelds" have been known to have issues. The buyer of this "authentic ww2 weapon" may have no idea what he has is really a blow tourch bubba job.

# ? Apr 21, 2008 23:01

Armacham: Mar 3, 2007; Then brothers in war, to the skirmish must we hence! Shall we hence?

I just got my m44 from UPS, its beautiful. Numbers matching and decent bore. Its a 1948 Soviet from the Izhevsk factory.

# ? Apr 21, 2008 23:26

Rhandhali: Sep 7, 2003; This is Free Trader Beowulf, calling anyone...

Does anyone here have any experience with Chinese military rifles, specifically stuff from before the Japanese invaded? I've seen a few "contract" Mausers but they looked too nice to be legitimate. I know that there were any number of arsenals such as Nanjing, Whampoa and Shanghai, that were churning out Mauser clones but I don't know much beyond that.

# ? Apr 21, 2008 23:55

tmanAg08: Jun 17, 2005; ?

Arfcom thread of a restoration on a few Mosins, with some good pictures.

# ? Apr 22, 2008 00:42

DrPop: Aug 22, 2004; Right next to the Mountain Holler.

tmanAg08 posted:

Arfcom thread of a restoration on a few Mosins, with some good pictures.

Hm, interesting stuff. Would it be worth it (aesthetic wise) for me to simply strip the shellac off of my 91/30, or do you guys think I should just dedicate to refinishing the whole stock?

# ? Apr 22, 2008 03:28

mikerock: Oct 29, 2005; I know what you want. I know what you need.

The Shellac is just on the stock. I would not recommend the ARFCOM method of refinishing. Instead use shellac thinner and 0000 steel wool to remove the commie shellac (after a thorough de-cosmolining process like the one used by Cyrano,) and then shellac flakes diluted in thinner painted on with a brush.

# ? Apr 22, 2008 03:39

Paramemetic: Sep 29, 2003; A gift from Coyote! Nothing could possibly go wrong here!

DrPop posted:

Hm, interesting stuff. Would it be worth it (aesthetic wise) for me to simply strip the shellac off of my 91/30, or do you guys think I should just dedicate to refinishing the whole stock?

Mine looks pretty good with just the shellac stripped off and a few layers of BLO - that's all I do to any of my milsurp stocks, and I've been told they look sharp. Cyrano commented on my Mauser, if I recall correctly, looking good. I just do a few layers of BLO on top of one another, the first layer, then let it sit, come back an hour later, wipe it off, second layer, come back in 5 minutes to wipe off excess, then the next an hour later, then a third layer which I let sit for 12 hours. That's all. For a Mosin that's more than acceptable.

But definitely strip the shellac - as pretty as the rifle is with it it will be prettier without.

To strip the shellac, I just use denatured alcohol and rub it down with steel wool. Make sure to let it sit for a while to eat the shellac away.

# ? Apr 22, 2008 03:40

Armacham: Mar 3, 2007; Then brothers in war, to the skirmish must we hence! Shall we hence?

I just got my m44 all cleaned up. The stock is a little rough under all that cosmoline. How will the BLO do on a laminated stock? Maybe I'll just grab some Feed and Wax to throw on there for now

Armacham fucked around with this message at Apr 22, 2008 around 04:51

# ? Apr 22, 2008 04:45

Paramemetic: Sep 29, 2003; A gift from Coyote! Nothing could possibly go wrong here!

Both my stocks are laminates as far as I know and BLO is fine. But for what it's worth, if you have Feed'n'wax I'd use it. I simply have never gotten my hands on any or I would probably be using that, as it comes very highly recommended by Cyrano.

# ? Apr 22, 2008 04:53

Armacham: Mar 3, 2007; Then brothers in war, to the skirmish must we hence! Shall we hence?

I have to make a run to the store in the next couple of days to grab what I need. I also noticed that something was done to the bayonet screw so that I can't remove the bayonet.

# ? Apr 22, 2008 05:13

Pitch: Jun 16, 2005; It is a truth universally
acknowledged that an
oniichan in possession
of good fortune must be
in want of an imouto.

Why do Shansei Mausers have to be so cool and so rare/expensive? Furthermore, if the Chinese are going to be smuggling brand new ones into the market anyway why can't they smuggle enough for me to buy an obvious reproduction for an obvious reproduction price?

# ? Apr 22, 2008 07:49

Cyrano4747: Sep 25, 2006; American planes, full of holes and wounded men, took off backwards from an airfield in England. Over France, a few German fighter planes flew at them backwards, sucked bullets and shell fragments from some of the planes and crewmen. They did the same for wrecked American bombers on the ground.

tmanAg08 posted:

Arfcom thread of a restoration on a few Mosins, with some good pictures.

Don't do this. This is a VERY harsh refinishing of the rifle. On a m44 it's not exactly the biggest crime in the world but on just about anything else it isn't recommended, to say the least. Hell, I wouldn't recommend it on an m44, but they're fairly common, available, and cheap so if you've just GOT to go hog wild on a rifle with epoxy, sandpaper, and stain a m44 is as good a choice as there is.

BLO is fine on laminated stocks.

BLO is also one of the better choices for finishing a wooden stock after you clean it. I've got a guide on the wiki about this. I'ts the "basic guide to refinishing a milsurp stock" or whatever I called it that's linked in the OP of this thread.

Seriously all you guys who want to clean nasty old stocks and make them pretty again - read some of those articles in the OP. I've been told they're at least mildly helpful.

Howards Feed-N-Wax is indeed an awesome tool in the milsurp stock cleaning/making pretty arsenal. It's not, however a finish. In fact that's why we love it so much. All it does is moisturize the wood a bit and gie it a protective, light wax coat that helps to prevent damage. It's the very definition of a minimalist approach to cleaning and prettying up a gun that you don't want to refinish and frequently used on the sort of higher-end milsurp stocks that you don't want to go anywhere near with mineral spirits and BLO. Matching, bringback mauser stocks, G/K43 stocks that are worth more than a new AR15, etc. It was recommended to me by Gewehr43 for just this reason.

# ? Apr 22, 2008 11:20

Athelas: Jan 13, 2006; differences tend to fall by the wayside with proper lubrication

Cyrano4747 posted:

Don't do this. This is a VERY harsh refinishing of the rifle. On a m44 it's not exactly the biggest crime in the world but on just about anything else it isn't recommended, to say the least. Hell, I wouldn't recommend it on an m44, but they're fairly common, available, and cheap so if you've just GOT to go hog wild on a rifle with epoxy, sandpaper, and stain a m44 is as good a choice as there is.

BLO is fine on laminated stocks.

BLO is also one of the better choices for finishing a wooden stock after you clean it. I've got a guide on the wiki about this. I'ts the "basic guide to refinishing a milsurp stock" or whatever I called it that's linked in the OP of this thread.

Seriously all you guys who want to clean nasty old stocks and make them pretty again - read some of those articles in the OP. I've been told they're at least mildly helpful.

Howards Feed-N-Wax is indeed an awesome tool in the milsurp stock cleaning/making pretty arsenal. It's not, however a finish. In fact that's why we love it so much. All it does is moisturize the wood a bit and gie it a protective, light wax coat that helps to prevent damage. It's the very definition of a minimalist approach to cleaning and prettying up a gun that you don't want to refinish and frequently used on the sort of higher-end milsurp stocks that you don't want to go anywhere near with mineral spirits and BLO. Matching, bringback mauser stocks, G/K43 stocks that are worth more than a new AR15, etc. It was recommended to me by Gewehr43 for just this reason.

I'm confused by this talk of refinishing (looking back at the pic of the M44 I got a few pages back).

Would you say the one I got from Classic Arms is in excellent shape as-is or should I go through the processes you folks are talking about?

...I thought it looked pretty awesome, but now I'm having doubts since so many people post about refinishing/stripping the old finish off their guns when they get them.

EDIT: For reference;

# ? Apr 22, 2008 12:18

Cyrano4747: Sep 25, 2006; American planes, full of holes and wounded men, took off backwards from an airfield in England. Over France, a few German fighter planes flew at them backwards, sucked bullets and shell fragments from some of the planes and crewmen. They did the same for wrecked American bombers on the ground.

Athelas posted:

I'm confused by this talk of refinishing (looking back at the pic of the M44 I got a few pages back).

Would you say the one I got from Classic Arms is in excellent shape as-is or should I go through the processes you folks are talking about?

...I thought it looked pretty awesome, but now I'm having doubts since so many people post about refinishing/stripping the old finish off their guns when they get them.

EDIT: For reference;

That one looks great. Honestly I think the shellac finish looks good on a lot of Mosins. If it's not coming off in a really bad way I usually vote for leaving it alone, myself, unless the owner just hates the way it looks with shellac. A lot of the mosins out there have really nasty shellac jobs, however - peeling off in sheets when firing, that sort of thing - which is when refinishing the rifle really becomes a great option.

# ? Apr 22, 2008 12:24

Athelas: Jan 13, 2006; differences tend to fall by the wayside with proper lubrication

No cracks/peeling so far (though I've only put about 30 rounds through it), here's hoping it holds out.

I should have a K98k coming in early next month (I asked the folks at ClassicArms to hold off shipping it until the last week this month so that it should arrive the first Saturday next month, as I'm having to work weekends doing month-end crap and can't take off to sign for it), so there's a box thread to look forward to, as well.

# ? Apr 22, 2008 12:32

Armacham: Mar 3, 2007; Then brothers in war, to the skirmish must we hence! Shall we hence?

I might have to do the howard's for now because I don't really have a good ventilated place to do the BLO. As much fun as trippin balls on fumes would be.

# ? Apr 22, 2008 14:06

Miso Beno: Apr 29, 2004; Try to Catch Me Ridin' Dirty

MILSURP MADDNESS

1943 Production Walther P38 pistol. Reblued at some point in its life which is rather unfortunate, because it has all matching numbers, its original magazine, and no import markings.

# ? Apr 22, 2008 20:36

Armacham: Mar 3, 2007; Then brothers in war, to the skirmish must we hence! Shall we hence?

I can't get this rear sight pin to drift out

anyone have any tips?

# ? Apr 22, 2008 21:10

Cyrano4747: Sep 25, 2006; American planes, full of holes and wounded men, took off backwards from an airfield in England. Over France, a few German fighter planes flew at them backwards, sucked bullets and shell fragments from some of the planes and crewmen. They did the same for wrecked American bombers on the ground.

Armacham posted:

I can't get this rear sight pin to drift out

anyone have any tips?

Get a good set of punches.

Failing that, get a nice, hard steel nail that's just a little thinner than the pin and grind the tip off it with a dremel or something. Use that and a hammer the same way you would a punch.

# ? Apr 22, 2008 21:17

Armacham: Mar 3, 2007; Then brothers in war, to the skirmish must we hence! Shall we hence?

the pin is one way, right? I should be going at it from the right side?

# ? Apr 22, 2008 23:13

Cyrano4747: Sep 25, 2006; American planes, full of holes and wounded men, took off backwards from an airfield in England. Over France, a few German fighter planes flew at them backwards, sucked bullets and shell fragments from some of the planes and crewmen. They did the same for wrecked American bombers on the ground.

Armacham posted:

the pin is one way, right? I should be going at it from the right side?

The pin that holds the rear sight on? No, that's just a regular pin - no "one way" about it. Chances are you're using a slightly too large punch. Try going down a size.

# ? Apr 22, 2008 23:20

Fifty Three: Oct 29, 2007; WWTFD

Armacham posted:

I can't get this rear sight pin to drift out

anyone have any tips?

I actually used an old tiny screwdriver (the metal-handled PC work kind) I had laying around. Note that it was old- I didn't need it. I half-expected it to break, but it worked just fine.

Edit: Where do I get good punches for cheap? I'll need them when I ~~convince my folks to let me~~ decide to build my AR-15 lower, and/or find new screws and a retaining nut for my scout mount.

# ? Apr 22, 2008 23:31

Armacham: Mar 3, 2007; Then brothers in war, to the skirmish must we hence! Shall we hence?

you should probably just call SK and ask them to send you new screws.

# ? Apr 22, 2008 23:38

Fifty Three: Oct 29, 2007; WWTFD

Armacham posted:

you should probably just call SK and ask them to send you new screws.

Why in the heck did I not think of this?

I've sent them an e-mail. Even if I have to pay just for that retainer nut (the only part completely stripped beyond function), it'd still be awesome to salvage what I haven't already hosed up. I really oughta learn some restraint with the screwdriver.

# ? Apr 22, 2008 23:47

Spacemoose: Feb 11, 2003; by Tiny Fistpump

I got an m39 finnish mosin recently. when I pull back the bolt there's a lot of play. so much that I can move the rear of the bolt about a half inch off axis up and down. is this par for the course or are there better fitting examples out there?

# ? Apr 22, 2008 23:56

Miso Beno: Apr 29, 2004; Try to Catch Me Ridin' Dirty

Spacemoose posted:

I got an m39 finnish mosin recently. when I pull back the bolt there's a lot of play. so much that I can move the rear of the bolt about a half inch off axis up and down. is this par for the course or are there better fitting examples out there?

This is normal.

# ? Apr 22, 2008 23:58

Ygolonac: Nov 26, 2007; FURRED STREET,
BITCHES!

Pitch posted:

Why do Shansei Mausers have to be so cool and so rare/expensive? Furthermore, if the Chinese are going to be smuggling brand new ones into the market anyway why can't they smuggle enough for me to buy an obvious reproduction for an obvious reproduction price?

Seconded. If I had ~~applicable skills and~~ access to the CNC- and other machine-shop-hardware at work on the weekends (when no one is in using 'em), I'd seriously be looking at homebrewing one because I have such a hardon for it.

C'mon, Norinco! Build a decent one, rent a president and get that annoying "No Norks" order killed, we have money for you! Economic stimulus, motherfucker, can you speak it?

In other news, what's the actual quality of the repros? Like, steel, or grenade/cheap alloy/zinc?

# ? Apr 23, 2008 00:37

Illegal Clown: Feb 18, 2004

Miso Beno posted:

This is normal.

Yep, that's to be expected out of something designed in the 1870s- early 1890s.

# ? Apr 23, 2008 01:44

Delivery McGee: Oct 8, 2004; Bad Angus! Bad!

Miso Beno posted:

Did Someone Say Imperial Britain?

The Webley is a .455 MkVI (cut for .45ACP), made in 1915. The SMLE was made in '16, later converted to a grenade launcher in India. Bayonet is March '18.

It was built with a magazine cutoff, but that was removed when it was upgraded to III* spec in India:

# ? Apr 23, 2008 09:22

Pitch: Jun 16, 2005; It is a truth universally
acknowledged that an
oniichan in possession
of good fortune must be
in want of an imouto.

Ygolonac posted:

In other news, what's the actual quality of the repros? Like, steel, or grenade/cheap alloy/zinc?

I've read that they're actually better than originals. Aside from the flawless finish, the only way to tell they're fakes is that they're made of modern steel that wasn't actually invented when the originals were made.

Edit:

D�gu� design firing Měigu� ammunition for glorious Zhōnggu� soldiers.

Pitch fucked around with this message at Apr 23, 2008 around 09:35

# ? Apr 23, 2008 09:28

voodoorootbeer: Nov 8, 2004; We may have years, we may have hours, but sooner or later we push up flowers.

Delivery McGee posted:

Oh man, that is seriously the best. I really really need a Webley and if I was a little more irresponsible, I would be stimulating the economy by buying one with my gov't chedda.

# ? Apr 23, 2008 13:55

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# ? May 25, 2013 16:08

Fifty Three: Oct 29, 2007; WWTFD

the reply from S&K Mounts posted:

Richard,
I'll send you out a new nut today free of charge.
Sherry

S&K has been propelled from "questionable parts quality" into "is awesome."

I take back everything I said. Cyrano, you were right. As usual.

# ? Apr 23, 2008 18:04

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