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SmokeyXIII
Apr 19, 2008
Not Stephen Harper in Disguise.

That is simply not true.

dv6speed posted:

How in the world do you even position the 2 pieces for welding... cranes? What was that you were welding btw?

A chemical reactor. 21' Diameter vessel with 7" wall thickness. I forget what type it was but it was a stainless steel. You position them with cranes, and rollers. You put one piece onto rollers, then bring the next piece up to it with a crane. Now with such pieces being so big and awkward to work with, you have to have your rigging set up just so to make sure everything lines up. Then you put BIG rear end tacks all over it. 1 1/2" Fillet welds on 8 gussets straddling the joint. After that you sub arc it for 56 hours nonstop and presto! One joint complete.

Edit: The vessel shells were made by Japan Steel Works, they forge a big huge cylinder of the material you want, then they jam a shaft through the centre to form the shape of the vessel walls. Check the pic of the forging and remember that thing is probably 20' diameter or bigger.

http://www.jsw.co.jp/en/product/material/vessel/fabsequence.html

SmokeyXIII fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Aug 22, 2008

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Dongsmith
Apr 12, 2007

CLANG THUD SPLUT

SmokeyXIII posted:

A chemical reactor. 21' Diameter vessel with 7" wall thickness. I forget what type it was but it was a stainless steel. You position them with cranes, and rollers. You put one piece onto rollers, then bring the next piece up to it with a crane. Now with such pieces being so big and awkward to work with, you have to have your rigging set up just so to make sure everything lines up. Then you put BIG rear end tacks all over it. 1 1/2" Fillet welds on 8 gussets straddling the joint. After that you sub arc it for 56 hours nonstop and presto! One joint complete.

Edit: The vessel shells were made by Japan Steel Works, they forge a big huge cylinder of the material you want, then they jam a shaft through the centre to form the shape of the vessel walls. Check the pic of the forging and remember that thing is probably 20' diameter or bigger.

http://www.jsw.co.jp/en/product/material/vessel/fabsequence.html
this is crazy. sub-arc meaning submerged arc welding?

Slung Blade
Jul 11, 2002

IN STEEL WE TRUST




Well, I have a huge boner. Anyone else?

Slung Blade fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Aug 22, 2008

SmokeyXIII
Apr 19, 2008
Not Stephen Harper in Disguise.

That is simply not true.

Dongsmith posted:

this is crazy. sub-arc meaning submerged arc welding?

Yep. It's about the most boring thing ever, which leads to not paying attention, which leads to HUGE mistakes due to the high heat input and deposition rates. So no one really wants to do the job.

Also you're sitting on a piece thats heated up to 350 or more degrees.. Basically it leaves footprints when you walk on top of it because it melts your boots.

SmokeyXIII
Apr 19, 2008
Not Stephen Harper in Disguise.

That is simply not true.

Slung Blade posted:

Well, I have a huge boner. Anyone else?

Look at the hand rail for scale.

Slung Blade
Jul 11, 2002

IN STEEL WE TRUST

I would love to have a power hammer, maybe not quite that big, but I'm sure I could use it...

Dongsmith
Apr 12, 2007

CLANG THUD SPLUT

SmokeyXIII posted:

Yep. It's about the most boring thing ever, which leads to not paying attention, which leads to HUGE mistakes due to the high heat input and deposition rates. So no one really wants to do the job.

Also you're sitting on a piece thats heated up to 350 or more degrees.. Basically it leaves footprints when you walk on top of it because it melts your boots.

100lb/hr is pretty nuts. Was that a continuous weld?

edit: yes it was

Dongsmith
Apr 12, 2007

CLANG THUD SPLUT

Slung Blade posted:

I would love to have a power hammer, maybe not quite that big, but I'm sure I could use it...
man, you can churn poo poo out with a little giant and a propane forge. I've never tried, but I am pretty sure it would be ridiculously easy (which is why people should start with hand hammers and coal)

Slung Blade
Jul 11, 2002

IN STEEL WE TRUST

Dongsmith posted:

man, you can churn poo poo out with a little giant and a propane forge. I've never tried, but I am pretty sure it would be ridiculously easy (which is why people should start with hand hammers and coal)

I used a gigantic air hammer made, poo poo, probably 80 years ago, when I did my course at a local pro's place. It was awesome, pure awesome.


But I know what you mean, good to learn control and build the strength you need.

:cool::hf::black101:

Dongsmith
Apr 12, 2007

CLANG THUD SPLUT

Slung Blade posted:

I used a gigantic air hammer made, poo poo, probably 80 years ago, when I did my course at a local pro's place. It was awesome, pure awesome.


But I know what you mean, good to learn control and build the strength you need.

:cool::hf::black101:
I know a guy who built a powerhammer at a workshop. It's not too hard to do if you have a good welder and some free time, as well as a talent for scrounging. Anvilfire.com has a whole collection of "junkyard hammers". That's on my list if I ever get a semi-permanent shop space. a good mid-range solution is a treadle hammer. they're even easier to build (got some metal and some springs? cool.), and provide a great third hand for punching/chiseling/repousse'/etc. MN's local ABANA chapter had a demonstration at one of their meetings, and it was really cool to see a guy veining a forged leaf with no problem at all.

Slung Blade
Jul 11, 2002

IN STEEL WE TRUST

Yeah I'll be building one as soon as I get a shop built. Or buy one, if I can find a decent one that I can repair in fairly close proximity.

AbsentMindedWelder
Mar 26, 2003

It must be the fumes.
Just did a casting with the new pattern. I used baby powder this time as parting compound which worked MUCH better. I also remembered to vent the mold this time. The sand had just a tad too much water in it, so there is a very minor steam defect on the casting that no amount of venting would have fixed.

Overall I'm pleased.

Time to go re-mull the sand and try again!

I'm saving the defective castings until I have a chance to take a picture of them.

AbsentMindedWelder
Mar 26, 2003

It must be the fumes.
Well did the 3rd casting. It came out PERFECT... except for yet another steam defect. I vented both the cope and drag in this casting and the last one. I think my sand may just have a little too much moisture. I'm considering the idea of making another mold today and letting it sit out for a day or 2.

(Note you shouldn't HAVE to let your mold sit out to dry.)

Slung Blade
Jul 11, 2002

IN STEEL WE TRUST

Would it help if you used a hair dryer for a few minutes before pouring?


I was out pounding for a bit tonight, got done my other half of the pair of tongs I've been procrastinating over. I'll bend them tomorrow, prep the jaws, and rivet them together.

Punzilupo
Jul 2, 2004

dv6speed posted:

Well did the 3rd casting. It came out PERFECT... except for yet another steam defect.
Are you sure it's not shrinkage?
How much steam are you seeing rising from the sand?
Are your gates and risers big enough?

AbsentMindedWelder
Mar 26, 2003

It must be the fumes.
I did a 3rd casting tonight (4th casting total.) It came out great, best yet, but it has a tiny steam defect that prevents it from being usable. We are talking a very small defect. We'll try again tomorrow.

Punzilupo posted:

Are you sure it's not shrinkage?

I'm positive it's not shrinkage... If I had pictures you'd see what I mean. The sand just has a tad too much water. Each successive casting today came out better and better from the sand drying out and being re-mulled.

Greensand is very very picky about it's moisture content. It is supposed to have enough moisture to hold together, but dry enough that metal can be poured into it right away.

Slung Blade posted:

Would it help if you used a hair dryer for a few minutes before pouring?
Perhaps, but the goal here is mix the sand properly so that it isn't necessary. However, if I have more any more problems, I may give that a shot.

I currently have a good portion of sand drying out on a tarp in my garage, so I can re-mull it to the correct moisture content tomorrow morning.

Edit: All this mulling reminds me... I need to build a motorized sand muller! I need one anyway if I want to use petrobond. Petrobond sand MUST be mulled my machine.

AbsentMindedWelder fucked around with this message at 05:32 on Aug 23, 2008

Punzilupo
Jul 2, 2004

dv6speed posted:

Greensand is very very picky about it's moisture content. It is supposed to have enough moisture to hold together, but dry enough that metal can be poured into it right away.
A good test is to take a handful of sand and squeeze it, then break the resulting chunk in half - if the sand breaks cleanly it is wet enough, if it crumbles at the edges of the break it is too dry. Err on the side of too dry, and then moisten just until it passes this test. A small plastic garden sprayer (hand pumped) works well for wetting the sand - spray lightly over the sand, stir, repeat.

Also if you aren't making allowances for small surface defects you should re-consider your pattern, and be willing to spend time filing (or cutting or machining) away the excess.

jovial_cynic
Aug 19, 2005

I've been hunting around on craigslist for an anvil, since I'm interested in doing some more hammer work, but I've been balking at the $150 to $400 price tag I've seen on them. However, I happened to swing by a garage sale today, and the guy was selling his late father-in-law's old metal working tools. And I found this:



It's not a big anvil (just 25lbs and 19" long, made from a railroad tie), but as I'm only really working with automotive-sized sheet metal, nails and coat-hangers, this thing is perfect.

Total price: $6. And that included the hammer. Woo hoo.

Dongsmith
Apr 12, 2007

CLANG THUD SPLUT

jovial_cynic posted:

I've been hunting around on craigslist for an anvil, since I'm interested in doing some more hammer work, but I've been balking at the $150 to $400 price tag I've seen on them. However, I happened to swing by a garage sale today, and the guy was selling his late father-in-law's old metal working tools. And I found this:



It's not a big anvil (just 25lbs and 19" long, made from a railroad tie), but as I'm only really working with automotive-sized sheet metal, nails and coat-hangers, this thing is perfect.

Total price: $6. And that included the hammer. Woo hoo.
Good deal. Get started on that, then try a Mousehole or Hay-Budden. You wont balk at the price any longer.

Railroad anvils are a great start. Hooks and Nails are good tapering practice, and they're just about the right size stock for that much anvil mass.

AbsentMindedWelder
Mar 26, 2003

It must be the fumes.
Nice find with that railroad track anvil! Good luck smithin'!

Today was a good foundry day. I've finally been able to mull good sand! Between good sand and good venting, the steam defect issue is solved.

Now that I have the steam issue solved, I now can finally see real signs of shrinkage. I will make bigger sprues, risers, and gates tomorrow.

Everything is finally falling in place now. I think I should have some really nice castings tomorrow. The goal right now is to produce a metal casting that can be cleaned up and used as a pattern itself.

AbsentMindedWelder
Mar 26, 2003

It must be the fumes.
Great news!

I have a perfect casting! I'll have some pictures soon.

In other good news, I start welding school tomorrow morning!

SmokeyXIII
Apr 19, 2008
Not Stephen Harper in Disguise.

That is simply not true.

dv6speed posted:

Great news!

I have a perfect casting! I'll have some pictures soon.

In other good news, I start welding school tomorrow morning!

Tell us all about it!!

jovial_cynic
Aug 19, 2005

This is a true story: I'm going to build a forge this winter. Half to add to my metal-working inventory, and half to keep warm while staying outside, because outside is more fun than inside.

AbsentMindedWelder
Mar 26, 2003

It must be the fumes.

SmokeyXIII posted:

Tell us all about it!!
I was too tired last night to tell you about it, but I'm not now...

Well, I will now disclose that the casting is a grenade shaped paperweight. I'll have pictures of it soon. It may eventually be for sale on SA mart, but I would have to improve/perfect/speed up the casting and finishing process, and then sit down and figure out what my time and materials are worth.

It looked as tho it'd be a simple casting project... well it's not. The sand space between the body and handle is a challenge to keep together, but possible. Using the proper moisture content in the sand fixed the steam defect issue. There was also a shrinkage issue, but wasn't evident until the steam problem was resolved. That was fixed with larger a sprue, riser, and gates.


Welding school went well today. The instructors are nice and knowledgeable gentlemen. This welding program (among other various trades) is provided to me free of charge, and is paid for by my state's department of labor. This costs them about $5k a head. The school and instructors help the students who complete the course secure good jobs. One interesting fact is that if I don't get a welding job within 90 days of completion, the school does NOT get paid!

In any event, most of today was dealing with bureaucracy, paperwork, and other formalities. We started to touch on safety. The first 1.5 weeks or so is spent in the classroom dealing with safety and theory.


In other news, UPS showed up at my door right on time with my new clay-graphite crucible. It looks pretty good, the outside measurements are 5"x7.5". So I'm thinking about a 9"x12" ID furnace. Considering my refractory will be 2.5" thick, I need a shell of 14"x14.5" ID.

Edit: Furnaces for oil burners should have more air space between the wall and crucible then with propane furnaces.

AbsentMindedWelder fucked around with this message at 00:30 on Aug 26, 2008

AnomalousBoners
Dec 22, 2007

by Ozma

dv6speed posted:

I was too tired last night to tell you about it, but I'm not now...

Well, I will now disclose that the casting is a grenade shaped paperweight. I'll have pictures of it soon. It may eventually be for sale on SA mart,

You know that pretty much every army navy store sells actual grenade paperweights right?

AbsentMindedWelder
Mar 26, 2003

It must be the fumes.
Here is what the completed casting looks like out of the sand, with the sprue and riser cut off. I've done some hacksawing and filing, but haven't finished it yet. It's about 3/4" thick, and weighs just over 13 oz.



RealKyleH posted:

You know that pretty much every army navy store sells actual grenade paperweights right?
Yes, I'm aware of that, but that isn't the point.

Slung Blade
Jul 11, 2002

IN STEEL WE TRUST

That looks like a pretty cool casting there Dv6, way to go man :coal:

Medenmath
Jan 18, 2003
I just finished a five-day class on Japanese-style temperlines - taught by Don Fogg. :swoon::worship:

So here is my second knife blade ever:

Only registered members can see post attachments!

AbsentMindedWelder
Mar 26, 2003

It must be the fumes.

Third Murderer posted:

I just finished a five-day class on Japanese-style temperlines - taught by Don Fogg. :swoon::worship:

So here is my second knife blade ever:
Nice!

I hear Don Fogg is the man.

Medenmath
Jan 18, 2003

dv6speed posted:

Nice!

I hear Don Fogg is the man.

Anything good you've ever heard about him is most likely true. He's incredibly knowledgeable, very friendly and approachable, and a great teacher to boot. Anyone who's into bladesmithing and has the chance to take a class with him should do it.

Slung Blade
Jul 11, 2002

IN STEEL WE TRUST

Third Murderer posted:

I just finished a five-day class on Japanese-style temperlines - taught by Don Fogg. :swoon::worship:

So here is my second knife blade ever:


You son of a bitch GIVE ME YOUR SECRETS! :argh:




But seriously, that's awesome man, it looks absolutely beautiful. Was it a clay temper?

SmokeyXIII
Apr 19, 2008
Not Stephen Harper in Disguise.

That is simply not true.
Well yesterday I did the single best weld of my entire life. I couldn't get my iPhone working last night but it worked tonight so maybe ill share the pictures! To be quite honest the pictures don't do it justice. My QC foreman came up to the weld and from 5 feet away he says "WHOA! that's a nice weld" Supposedly no one has ever heard him say that before. It was even in a pretty awkward position too, notice how close the scaffold was to the joint, it left for very little room to move, and even worse because there was a horizontal elbow which left even less room on the one side. I'm sorry if they look the same as the last picture but gosh I am sure proud of these ones.



AbsentMindedWelder
Mar 26, 2003

It must be the fumes.

SmokeyXIII posted:

I'm sorry if they look the same as the last picture but gosh I am sure proud of these ones.
Holy cow! That is one hell of a nice pipe weld man, you should be proud. What sized pipe and what type electrodes is that?

SmokeyXIII
Apr 19, 2008
Not Stephen Harper in Disguise.

That is simply not true.

dv6speed posted:

Holy cow! That is one hell of a nice pipe weld man, you should be proud. What sized pipe and what type electrodes is that?

10" Sch 40. About 1/2" thick? It's not too big.

I used mostly 3/32 7018, only a little bit of 1/8 on the fill but I decided that was looking stupid so I went back to 3/32. Also I use 1/8 6010 for the root pass.

jovial_cynic
Aug 19, 2005

Now that I've got a little anvil, I'm thinking about building a forge. I have an old oversized woodstove that I picked up for free that included woodstove firebricks. Any words of advice or caution regarding converting it into a forge?

Also, does anybody know what it typically costs to have a machine shop mill down the surface of a 19-inch section of railroad track? I'd like the surface to be smooth, but if it's going to cost me $100 to do it, I'd just as soon save up and buy a proper anvil.

Dongsmith
Apr 12, 2007

CLANG THUD SPLUT

quote:

Also, does anybody know what it typically costs to have a machine shop mill down the surface of a 19-inch section of railroad track? I'd like the surface to be smooth, but if it's going to cost me $100 to do it, I'd just as soon save up and buy a proper anvil.
I can't imagine it would be worth it. This is an anvil, it need only be eye-precise, not micrometer-precise. Buy an angle grinder and a flap disc.

SmokeyXIII
Apr 19, 2008
Not Stephen Harper in Disguise.

That is simply not true.
I don't know if we care about this in this thread but today I went to Syncrude, which is a different plant than the one I work at, and we checked out all the old mining equipment. I stood in the shovel. It's huge but compared to the new ones its so tiny. They've got all kinds of huge equipment up there, it was just so amazing to see the gigantic metal monsters up so close. Pretty neato!

http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr224/SmokeyXIIII/IMG_0033.jpg

Slung Blade
Jul 11, 2002

IN STEEL WE TRUST

SmokeyXIII posted:

I don't know if we care about this in this thread but today I went to Syncrude, which is a different plant than the one I work at, and we checked out all the old mining equipment. I stood in the shovel. It's huge but compared to the new ones its so tiny. They've got all kinds of huge equipment up there, it was just so amazing to see the gigantic metal monsters up so close. Pretty neato!

http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr224/SmokeyXIIII/IMG_0033.jpg

Did you see any ravens big enough to carry off a small child?


Nice picture, I'd like to visit Ft Mac someday, it's not that far.





jovial_cynic posted:

Now that I've got a little anvil, I'm thinking about building a forge. I have an old oversized woodstove that I picked up for free that included woodstove firebricks. Any words of advice or caution regarding converting it into a forge?

The bricks should be fine. Are you going to use any kind of mortar to join them together or just dry fit them? If you use mortar, make sure it's fire-rated.

Can you post a picture of it? I can't say what kind of a forge it would make without seeing it first.

Slung Blade fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Aug 28, 2008

nicad
Feb 21, 2004

SmokeyXIII posted:

I don't know if we care about this in this thread but today I went to Syncrude, which is a different plant than the one I work at, and we checked out all the old mining equipment. I stood in the shovel. It's huge but compared to the new ones its so tiny. They've got all kinds of huge equipment up there, it was just so amazing to see the gigantic metal monsters up so close. Pretty neato!

http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr224/SmokeyXIIII/IMG_0033.jpg

where are you working at? that looks eerily familiar to some steam piping we're having welded up here at the brewery

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Medenmath
Jan 18, 2003

Slung Blade posted:

You son of a bitch GIVE ME YOUR SECRETS! :argh:

Okay! I'll type up my notes when I have the time, hopefully tonight.

Slung Blade also posted:

But seriously, that's awesome man, it looks absolutely beautiful. Was it a clay temper?

Yes, we thinly coated the blade with clay to help prevent scale, then painted on ashi lines and a thicker coating along the back.

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