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PKMN Trainer Red
Oct 22, 2007



I'll carry the discussion from the last thread over.

Kate was arguably my least favorite part of the first season of Angel. It felt like her character was completely one dimensional. She went from 'Stereotypical Cop' to 'Stereotypical Stubborn Cop' to 'Stereotypical Cop With Family Issues'. I don't think they could have conceivably made her story arc any less interesting in terms of plotting. I appreciate the family element with her father biting it and all, but really, there wasn't much depth to the whole thing. The best part of her character was the fact that she nearly died and we got a classic Angel monologue out of the whole thing before she skedaddled out of town (well, Angel: After The Fall, blah blah blah).

Bottom line: Joss had the foresight to cut Doyle while his character was still fresh and not a shadow of Angel, but spent a little too long with Stock Cop Character #1.

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PKMN Trainer Red
Oct 22, 2007



Superrodan posted:

Wasn't Doyle cut because the actor had drug problems? I know the actor died of an overdose later, but I also thought that's why he was cut and Wesley was brought in. Man, what a different show that would have been.

In an interview with Joss about 'Angel' a couple years ago, he talked about Doyle in Angel. The trouble with Doyle was about half Glenn Quinn (and his rampant drug abuse) and half Whedon's own fault. Quinn did indeed have a massive drug problem, and was self-destructing and taking others with him, so the show was receiving pressure to let him go. At the same time, they began to run out of ideas of stuff to do with Doyle. He is essentially the same sort of character as Angel, and hits a lot of the same notes Angel does over the first season (i.e. both live in relative squalor and fight crime to help others, have a demonic other half that they're embarrassed about, both try to overcome their personal demons in order to save others).

I'm sure the drug thing probably didn't help it, but I know for sure they talk on the Angel DVD commentaries about running out of ideas for Doyle and needing to do something dramatic before it became Angel and Angel and Cordy fighting crime.

PKMN Trainer Red
Oct 22, 2007



I've bought every issue so far of both of the new Buffy and Angel seasons.

I have yet to be disappointed with Buffy. It truly keeps on delivering (except for a few dumb character changes, but nothing that can't be fixed).

Angel, on the other hand, has only really provided me with a single moment that I've thought was cool. The writing simply isn't that great and the art makes the book a chore to read. I mean, I appreciate that art isn't everything, but it's a big drat part, and when your book's ugly, it's an instant strike against it.

PKMN Trainer Red
Oct 22, 2007



Low Key Liar posted:

The dragon switched sides, everybody survived(well, in some form or another), the senior partners sent all of LA to hell, Gunn is a vampire, Angel is human (not Shanshu human, though), wesley is a ghost-type still in service to the senior partners.

Also, Connon, Gwen and Nina are all back. Connor remembers everything, but since it's a comic book, he's less annoying than usual. Gunn and Angel are currently fighting, and Gunn just discovered Angel is human again.

PKMN Trainer Red
Oct 22, 2007



Two options.

A) Gunn bites Angel to vampire him again, saying something like, 'If I have to be a vampire, you do too'. The status quo is restored, at least as far as Angel goes. Maybe he'll have a soul permanently this time too, meaning that he can have sex with Buffy without losing his soul. Who knows.

B) Angel dies. The Senior Partners decide that Angel can't die, so they bring him back (or refuse to let him die). Alternately, Angel dies and goes to Hell, but since they're in Hell, it's no big whoop.

Honestly, Angel really needs to start picking up as a series. I mean, it's O.K., but I really need something stellar to justify continuing reading it.

PKMN Trainer Red
Oct 22, 2007



Nope, just stay in L.A., because L.A. = Hell right now anyway. So he'll die, open his eyes and be right where he died.

Super duper bonus points to me if Holland Manners shows up to say something snarky.

PKMN Trainer Red
Oct 22, 2007



Gordon Shumway posted:

I want to see "Restless" as it was planned.

I'm not sure I remember the original idea for 'Restless' off the top of my head. Refresh my memory?

PKMN Trainer Red
Oct 22, 2007



Wolfram & Hart are also a talent agency, apparently. But I guess that makes sense.

PKMN Trainer Red
Oct 22, 2007



Oxygen Frog posted:

And I don't recall her doing a single interview or commentary on the Buffy DVDs.

That's one thing that stuck out to me watching the special features on the Chosen Collection DVDs.

No matter how many panels/discussion groups/reunions there are, almost everybody who mattered showed up.. except Sarah Michelle Gellar.

PKMN Trainer Red
Oct 22, 2007



uXs posted:

Question is now: should I watch Angel as well ? I've seen even less of Angel than I had of Buffy, so I don't really know if I'll like it. Is the first season representative of the whole series ? I could get the first season, and if I like it, I'd get the other 4 all at once. Good idea ?

I know it's already been answered, but it needs to be repeated. Everyone should watch Angel. Even if you hated Buffy, watch Angel. If you've never seen Buffy, watch Angel. Angel is the perfect Christmas gift for the elderly, teenagers, young children and vagrants. Angel Season 5 cures some forms of cancer.

No really though, watch Season 1. If you like that, you'll love the rest of the seasons. I'm one of the nerds who'll argue that Angel is cohesively a better show than Buffy, so if you liked Buffy, you'll like Angel even more. Just stay away from plot spoilers and enjoy the absolute badass ride.

Also, Angel character spoilers, Westley is the best loving character on the show.

PKMN Trainer Red
Oct 22, 2007



One of my favorite little joys is watching Buffy and then Angel with friends who know nothing about the show.

(More character spoilers do not read these if you haven't watched Angel I'm serious here you're just starting out don't do it)

Angel Season 1: Hey, all right Angel! Aww, Cordelia, she's sort of a spotty character. Damnit, Westley's on this show? What a nerd.
Angel Season 2: Angel is awesome. Cordy's pretty cool. Westley's hilarious.
Angel Season 3: I wish to have wild monkey sex with Fred. Cordelia's great too, she's really matured.
Angel Season 4: Stupid Connor. Westley's a bad motherfucker. Cordy nooooo!
Angel Season 5: Hell yes this is the best show ever.

PKMN Trainer Red fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Dec 3, 2008

PKMN Trainer Red
Oct 22, 2007



There is nothing in Angel that would spoil Buffy Season Eight, or vice versa. You're clear for reading. :)

PKMN Trainer Red
Oct 22, 2007



I would dare say that after the first season, the Angel from Buffy isn't the Angel in Angel. I personally don't like the near-messiah status of Angel in Buffy in that he's a mostly (until he's evil) two-dimensional guy who exists to be sensitive with Buffy.

He really strikes out on his own in his own series and becomes his own man. The first season is a little rough in terms of Angel being his own guy, but come the second season he's pure awesome.

Best I can recommend is to give the series a try, even if you don't like the character to begin with.

Also, a Giles TV show would have been the best thing in the universe.

PKMN Trainer Red
Oct 22, 2007



Horseface posted:

someone REALLY wants to hear it.

---

To me, I guess I appreciate the shows differently.

I grew up with Buffy in that I had the same sort of school experiences parallel with the characters. They went to college, I went to college. It seemed that they aged and grew up at the same time as I did, and I can't feel very objective about the series as a whole because it's been colored differently for me. One interesting thing I've noticed is that when I watched the entire series when it was on the air, Buffy was a really sympathetic character who I really, really liked. She felt like someone I could have been friends with at the time, and it was good. Watching the series again now that a few years have passed and I've distanced myself from waiting week to week for episodes, I find that Buffy's not all that sympathetic and is, point of fact, a total whiner and occasional colossal bitch. Not to say that the other characters come off any better particularly, but I don't remember Buffy being like that.

That being said, for some unknowable reason, I didn't watch Angel when it was on the air. I watched when there were obvious cross-overs, but I didn't follow the show itself until the DVD releases when I could watch it with Buffy at home on my own time. Watching it this way, I vastly preferred Angel because it struck me differently than Buffy did. The show seemed better, more polished, and more interesting on the whole. There were still things I didn't like about Angel that I didn't like about Buffy (as in, when the episodes were bad, they were BAD), but on the whole, Angel was just a more enjoyable show for me now. My enjoyment of Angel now is as strong as my enjoyment of Buffy was back in the day. The best way I can explain this is, when Buffy comes to Los Angeles and Angel tells her to get the hell out of town and never come back. Years ago, I would have totally sided with Buffy and said that Angel was completely wrong and Buffy was in the right. Watching now, Angel was in the right, Buffy was being a bitch and it was an awesome/manly thing for him to do.

It must be the hallmark of good writing that I can feel strongly and even change opinions about shows that I love even after this long. That being said, watching as an older, more critical viewer, Angel feels like the better show just in terms of content. Whereas Buffy seemed to aimlessly float through situations until the last 10 episodes of a seasons where the poo poo hit the fan, Angel always seemed to have a purpose (at least after season one). The camera work seemed a little smoother, the sets seemed a little nicer and the characters seemed a little more engaging on Angel.

Although Xander and I are BFFs for life.

PKMN Trainer Red
Oct 22, 2007



I'm up in the air over the comics at this point. I'm sorta trudging through Angel at this point (the art is downright hideous sometimes) and I didn't really enjoy the most recent Buffy arc with Fray and Buffy killing Willow a few hundred years in the future. It felt like it was going for deep, meaningful emotion that instead came off as 'Wait, what's going on?'.

The Buffy one-shot was decent, though. It was nice to see Buffy back in High School, and JOYCE! Also, Giles has the best Giles moment in the comic series so far.

I don't know. I'm hoping the comics pick up, although I don't know how they wouldn't, since the next Buffy arc is Harmony! and rumors of another Faith arc further down the line.

PKMN Trainer Red
Oct 22, 2007



Gorilla Salad posted:

Best character introduction ever. I'll miss him.

Rest in peace, Andy. :(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glLWdVlWsUM

PKMN Trainer Red
Oct 22, 2007



Sorry, quick derail. I've been showing Buffy and Angel to my family back to back (good old fashioned Tuesday night fun!), and we just got to 'Once More With Feeling'. Three other people, all of whom have really liked the show, suddenly hate Buffy. Apparently 'Once More' was so bad(?) for them that they're officially turned off of the show.

Which is lame, because they're going to miss the sheer badassery of 'Tabula Rasa'.

Anyway, just thought I'd pass on how weird it was. I've seen people apathetic to 'Once More' before, but I've never seen anyone so strongly against it that they don't want to watch the show anymore.

PKMN Trainer Red
Oct 22, 2007



I'm sorry, the 'Angel is Twilight' twist is still the laziest possible option anybody could have come up with for Season 8.

Who is the one most illogical person to be Twilight? Why, Angel, of course. Because despite having lost her virginity to him, and known him intimately for years, she couldn't recognize his body size, build and voice. Hell, Angel's always been lovely at doing accents, so it's not like his voice would have been disguised very well.

It really comes down to 'We want to sell some issues of comics... who should we write? I know, Angel! And it'll be all dramatic and tense because they secretly love each other! The rest writes itself!"

I would have loved for Twilight to be a reborn Jonathan. Or Ethan Rayne. Or virtually anyone other than Angel, or Spike, who would be the most cliched 'masked villains' ever.

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PKMN Trainer Red
Oct 22, 2007



For once in my life I can say "I'm happy that I stopped right before it got to the loving". Who thought that was a good idea, seriously? Sure, it probably sold a bunch of copies to fangirls bu-- ohhh, I get it.

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