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Caphi posted:Sorry, I'm Android. Also, I'm not convinced I want to play Hearts again with minor differences and a battle system I'll probably enjoy less. I've been trying to go no further against the localization than what I've actually seen, it's just that what I've seen is not fortunate. The hearts R battle system is way better than the DS one. I can't imagine anyone preferring the 2D / DS style.
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Nov 24, 2015 02:22
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I don't think I've ever really liked a Flex Range. Xillia was best for me all around. I dunno if I could even go back to Abyss now, I was different back then.
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Nov 24, 2015 02:37
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The 2d's lack of defensive options are a real negative for me, compared to the 3d systems.
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Nov 24, 2015 02:38
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I enjoyed ToHR but I admit that half my experience with that was hilariously long Kohaku kick chains mixed with countering enemies every time they tried to break free.
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Nov 24, 2015 02:42
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hearts is fast and satisfying. it's probably my favorite of the team symphonia systems except for the Xillias.
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Nov 24, 2015 02:44
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Going between Xillia and Vesperia was pretty outrageous, speed-wise. I can see the New Destiny style games being more about pressing and execution, ergo being less defensive. But what do you mean by defensive options? There's guarding. Flash Guards and Step Guards originated from Destiny 2 and have been in Destiny PS2 and Hearts (also Rebirth? Maybe?) I think the S side picked them up in Xillia or maybe Vesperia. Hearts actually has multiple combo escape buttons. Food triggers are a strictly Destiny thing.
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Nov 24, 2015 02:53
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ImpAtom posted:I enjoyed ToHR but I admit that half my experience with that was hilariously long Kohaku kick chains mixed with countering enemies every time they tried to break free. Guard Counters are the best thing.
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Nov 24, 2015 07:22
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Pureauthor posted:Guard Counters are the best thing. They were fun and I hope they end up in other Tales games.
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Nov 24, 2015 07:53
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I'm not nearly as high on Hearts R as the rest of the thread but Guard Counters loving ruled.
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Nov 24, 2015 13:52
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Were they in the original version of Hearts or an addition to R?
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Nov 24, 2015 13:58
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They were added in the Re-imaginations.
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Nov 24, 2015 15:16
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:The hearts R battle system is way better than the DS one. I can't imagine anyone preferring the 2D / DS style. You can't imagine someone preferring 2D combat in a 2D environment to 2D combat jammed awkwardly into a 3D environment? Or a game with no TP? Or a game with actually responsive quicksteps? Or a game where the height that flying enemies idle at naturally lines up with both the top of your jump arc and the hitboxes on most upward attacks? Txn posted:They were added in the Re-imaginations. Hearts and Hearts R are so completely mechanically different from one another that saying anything was added (or taken away for that matter) feels dishonest but yeah, guard counters aren't in Hearts DS but are in Innocence R.
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Nov 24, 2015 16:44
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I'm not trying to start an LMBS war just now. My personal biases and preferences are well-known by now. Speaking of Hearts, tangentially, how are Assist Artes and Magic Carta both systems in non-Anniversary games? Get it together, whatever part of the Tales team(s) is in charge of nostalgia tokens.
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Nov 24, 2015 16:54
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Caphi posted:Speaking of Hearts, tangentially, how are Assist Artes and Magic Carta both systems in non-Anniversary games? Get it together, whatever part of the Tales team(s) is in charge of nostalgia tokens. Well Assist Artes probably exist to make up for the three character party and Magic Carta was a Wiimote minigame so they both do at least make some sense in the games they showed up in.
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Nov 24, 2015 16:57
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I meant specifically the ones that summon other Namco characters, I don't remember if there's a separate name for them than Assist. Xillia 2, too, actually - it's got nearly half of the Xillia totality's Phantasia nostalgia in it, most of its Destiny nostalgia, and it's got the logo weapons, their quests, and the cats, none of which Xillia had. I know it's a dumb thing to give them noise about but they're the ones talking up the anniversary logos on the box. I assume. It was certainly there (and rather heavy) in Zestiria PR, and Zestiria has even less.
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Nov 24, 2015 17:05
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Caphi posted:I meant specifically the ones that summon other Namco characters, I don't remember if there's a separate name for them than Assist. Well yeah but I figure those were a "while we're at it" kind of thing, them just kind of showing up in a game that didn't already have that system would be a little weird.
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Nov 24, 2015 17:36
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Seems like a lot of effort, though. Picking characters and their key items, creating visual assets and effects, whatever goes into balancing areas/damage/CG cost. The summon Assists aren't trivial. I think that's probably it. You can get that sort of thing into the "lesser" games - an experimental Wii release, a last-ditch portable push, an expansion with a lot of the content made or ready. The big-ticket titles barely even have time for their own content, let alone extras.
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Nov 24, 2015 18:09
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I don't think it's about being a "lesser" title or not. It's just a new game thing. Older games were just more polished. There's been someone in Bamco marketing, and they probably came some time at the end of Graces, and all the games have felt incomplete since. Graces is the last title that really felt complete, and it was buggy as hell so you can tell there were problems. ToX2 feels complete but let's not forget that it's just a glorified expansion pack. They didn't need many resources to do what they did there.
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Nov 26, 2015 04:04
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i feel like the tales team just isn't big enough to work on modern consoles. they need more time and money than they're being given to make a complete game. graces was originally a wii game and a wii is basically a gamecube.
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Nov 26, 2015 04:19
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Tales of Hearts R feels complete but it was a Vita game and a remake so it was probably a lot easier for them.
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Nov 26, 2015 04:22
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Abyss was 10th Anniversary (I think?) and had to be fixed for the English release so between that and Xillia and Zestiria both coming out half-baked I figured it must be correlated. I always forget Graces came out buggy too, though. What exactly were the bugs, anyway? I didn't notice them the first time and I've only played a lot of f since. And Graces at least seemed done content-wise, they didn't fix anything for f apart from adding skills and tacking on the epilogue. I'm increasingly convinced that a lot of meat was pulled off of Zestiria, and you can take credit for that if you want, ruta. Hearts came out complete so it seems like it would be hard for R to be less complete. Caphi fucked around with this message at 04:38 on Nov 26, 2015 |
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Nov 26, 2015 04:35
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You don't even need to read someone's theory to figure out that a whole lot was ripped out of Zestiria. Every time the plot is about Alisha, including the very start of the game, the cutscenes themselves are janky messes that randomly cut between shots and ideas and are noticeably unfinished. And then when you get back to the 'main' plot, the cutscenes are fine. It's not even a writing thing, it's a technical thing. The direction of the cutscenes is like the video game equivalent of an unfinished movie that was edited together with whatever they had shot by the time it had to be done. If you've ever watched, say, the unreleased fantastic four movie, you know what I'm talking about. My personal favorite is the war section, which can't decide if it's taking place at night, during the day, or over the course of multiple days.
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Nov 26, 2015 04:38
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wateyad posted:You can't imagine someone preferring 2D combat in a 2D environment to 2D combat jammed awkwardly into a 3D environment? No 
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Nov 26, 2015 04:44
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Nah, I've been working on this independently. Alisha is a big part, though it frankly didn't click until I thought about what Arkeus said about Alisha today and has been saying about the humans generally, and realized there is a perfectly sensible arc progression for her that (if true, and I want it to be) only the beginning and end of were actually in the game, making it a nonsensical mess. But the main thing I've been thinking about is Lucas. I hope Berseria is a new-millennium modernization of the old linear block-and-push gameplay. A return to the design left behind by Destiny 2. I did say it was going to hail to Legendia, didn't I? I'm kidding. I honestly hope it's Around Step-based again. Caphi fucked around with this message at 04:50 on Nov 26, 2015 |
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Nov 26, 2015 04:48
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If I do all the Fell Arms stuff in Vesperia and unlock the end of game boss's final form is it notably harder than anything in the game? I'm just worried I'm doing some Indalecio's limiter style poo poo.
Sakurazuka fucked around with this message at 11:19 on Nov 26, 2015 |
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Nov 26, 2015 11:16
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Everything I ever learned about the LMBS system, I learned from Giant Bomb. http://www.giantbomb.com/videos/video-thing-its-a-website/2300-20
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Nov 26, 2015 11:34
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Sakurazuka posted:If I do all the Fell Arms stuff in Vesperia and unlock the end of game boss's final form is it notably harder than anything in the game? I'm just worried I'm doing some Indalecio's limiter style poo poo. The thing you unlock from getting the Fell Arms is definitely one of the hardest things in the game, though probably not the hardest (and definitely not the hardest in PS3 Vesperia, Spiral Draco is so much worse). Since you get to save and reload your clear-data save in Vesperia, which puts you right in front of the final boss again, I'd recommend beating the game without the Fell Arms, then unlocking them in the cleared data. That way you'll have access to some of the post-game only stuff like the memory dungeon or the 200 Man Melee to get some levels in case it's too hard for your party.
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Nov 26, 2015 14:03
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Sakurazuka posted:If I do all the Fell Arms stuff in Vesperia and unlock the end of game boss's final form is it notably harder than anything in the game? I'm just worried I'm doing some Indalecio's limiter style poo poo. That depends how much of Rita's stuff you have. As long as you're in the low to mid-60s or so, you can beat the super extra final form via stocking up on overlimit bottles and BLAH BLAH BLAH METEOR STORM. Probably also keep Estelle in for Nurse. E: I still think the hardest thing in the game is Secret Goddamn loving God Forsaken Mission 17. Linear Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 14:12 on Nov 26, 2015 |
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Nov 26, 2015 14:08
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Thanks I think I'll do it without first then see how it goes. After something like 65 hours I'm about ready for this game to be over.
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Nov 26, 2015 14:24
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Yeah High-level Rita is basically a pass for hard battles. Graces I always heard a lot of things were unfinished gameplay and story-wise hence why the felt they needed to do F, but who knows, never played the Wii version. Zestiria obviously hada lot of cut things (some Zaveid/Lunarre parts, some Lucas stuff, some Symonne stuff) but a lot of the cuts were done because they realised the story was so much better that way (like Alisha, they really managed to do something so much better than what it would have been had she been forced into the plot...)
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Nov 26, 2015 15:01
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Arkeus posted:Yeah High-level Rita is basically a pass for hard battles. She does get forced into the plot, at the end, when the game pretends she's both proved her worth and established any friendship with Sorey, when the only things that have happened is she's flailed around, messed stuff up, and Sorey has avoided her and kept secrets from her. At minimum, one extra event that bridges her failures against Bartlowe and her turnaround and victory at the end by having her:
Don't misunderstand me - I'm saying all this from a position of really wanting Alisha to work in this game. Anyway I recently started Graces again (at the present, I mean) and it's still a brilliant LMBS but I forgot the following things:
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Nov 28, 2015 17:58
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Were the buttons switched in Japanaese? I thought Zesty was just being weird by doing it, cause the first thing I did was immediately switch it to Graces' layout.
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Nov 28, 2015 18:06
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I don't know firsthand, but they were A and B artes in the original because they were actually A and B on a Wii so I'd be more surprised if they'd reversed the layout just for the PS3, especially considering that my English Graces f also has the confirm/deny positions reversed to be the Western way (X = yes, O = no).
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Nov 28, 2015 18:11
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i actually like alisha but think rose is a trash character hope this helps
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Nov 28, 2015 19:14
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Volt Catfish posted:i actually like alisha but think rose is a trash character hope this helps Agree with each word, that's why I have so many feelings on it. Unrelatedly, I know these RPGs historically do have entire regions consisting of one or two towns and an interesting facility or geological formation, but it feels so much more obvious in Graces somehow. I certainly felt like the world scale was having issues in Hearts, Xillia, and Zestiria as well, but Graces has it especially bad. I've been thinking on it and I'm pretty sure that the highroads in Graces are at some level supposed to represent land-to-scale, but everything looks the same on them so it doesn't really feel that way, and there are some oddities that appear to be actual size (such as any kind of Discovery), which makes it harder to buy that the rest of it is to scale. Xillia and Zestiria I think have something like that but the maps themselves are less claustrophobic so it seems less like a highroad between towns is actually just a road and some cows. Also Xillia and Zestiria only take place on one continent, while Graces both feels smaller and is also trying to be an entire planet. (And after all, how much area seems to exist in Quartzia or Fodra, anyway? And Elympios?) Bring back world maps. (This is another reason I'm anxious to see how Sails of Berseria looks.) I apologize in advance for what may become a new wave of Graces complaints (and other things?). The main things about Graces are well-established and haven't gone anywhere so what's on my mind now is a lot of little quality of life and experience details. Same way as my last Vesperia experience went. e: in fact, while I'm nitpicking Graces, the game is pretty heavy on "weak to B" between Orlen and Lhant, and I really wanted to kick things. Caphi fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Nov 28, 2015 |
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Nov 28, 2015 20:10
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In my crazy crack theory split route re-imagining of Zestiria, one of the things that happens is after the fire temple and subsequent church dungeon where Rose does her thing, you split off to the water temple (the story pushes you that way instead of letting you go wherever). This would imply that Rose has some lingering business in that city, but I'll get back to that part later! Around the water temple, you find out Alicia has been successful in promoting her self worth such that she's put in charge in researching the water temple (not Maltran). She is happy about this, but also feels that she is being regulated to the sidelines still, because the higher ups dislike having her be too close to the common people. Thus, you do the water temple with her and at the end, or during the boss fight, you get the power to have her kamui. I mean, why not right? If Sorey is actually getting stronger via these trials, why not?! I suppose this would also make it appear as though Sorey was doing everything for her, though. This would also mean Alicia finds out about Maltran earlier in the game. Which I think is fine, really.
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Nov 28, 2015 20:26
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Caphi posted:it wouldn't have quieted the nerds that wanted her to be an actual
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Nov 28, 2015 20:30
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Caphi posted:Agree with each word, that's why I have so many feelings on it. Graces takes place on a moon so I can forgive everything being a little small.
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Nov 28, 2015 20:35
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ruta posted:In my crazy crack theory split route re-imagining of Zestiria, one of the things that happens is after the fire temple and subsequent church dungeon where Rose does her thing, you split off to the water temple (the story pushes you that way instead of letting you go wherever). This would imply that Rose has some lingering business in that city, but I'll get back to that part later! Around the water temple, you find out Alicia has been successful in promoting her self worth such that she's put in charge in researching the water temple (not Maltran). She is happy about this, but also feels that she is being regulated to the sidelines still, because the higher ups dislike having her be too close to the common people. Thus, you do the water temple with her and at the end, or during the boss fight, you get the power to have her kamui. I mean, why not right? If Sorey is actually getting stronger via these trials, why not?! I suppose this would also make it appear as though Sorey was doing everything for her, though. This would also mean Alicia finds out about Maltran earlier in the game. Which I think is fine, really. Add Sergei as a PC with his own arc and I'd buy it. But yeah, I know you acknowledged this but part of the difficulty I have is that whenever Alisha does anything remotely positive (Merlind, Maltran, Tiamat, the peace talks), Sorey is involved, and when Sorey is not involved, she's stuck on a bridge or being lied to by her not-mom. So that's what makes it so messed up that Sorey tries to stay away from her and be hands off so pointedly. Also I think Alisha is fairly beloved by the citizenry (don't remember how much of this is by association with the Blue Valkyrie) but is a political chew toy because she is not cunning and comes from low blood, which is why half the game for her is Bartlowe jerking her around. I think you'd need an angle for her to go down that isn't just popularity. Plus she has the whole "wants to be great knight rather than a princess" thing. Go with that, tie it into her decision with Maltran, and you can properly set her up as Sergei's counterpart, which is another thing the ending tried to go for. It'd be a little bit Asbel but who knows, Japan might have gone for a girl Asbel. 2ch used to have a thread series back when called "The True Zestiria," the premise of which was "fixing" Zestiria's writing with only expansions and clarifications, not retcons and using all the events as presented in the game. It seemed to be the relatively sane people (there were Rose and other kinds of hate threads too, obviously) and it seems a lot like what we're talking about now, but I never really read much of it for unrelated reasons. Out of curiosity, were you aware of it? I'm not sure if there's an archive or anything. Caphi fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Nov 28, 2015 |
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Nov 28, 2015 21:25
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The Graces would always struck me as more industrialized, so they ended up flattening a bunch of the land to make it walkable. Yeah. I know it's obviously because it's a Wii game, but eh, I like that their world had more control over their magic then most of these games.
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Nov 28, 2015 22:09
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