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Catch 22
Dec 1, 2003
Damn it, Damn it, Damn it!

H110Hawk posted:

At this point I'm blaming bogons and the LHC.
Your Netapps are out to get you if you don't feed them more disks and power.

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Mierdaan
Sep 14, 2004



H110Hawk posted:

To diverge from the thrilling debate about some Dell bottom of the barrel disk enclosure...

Sorry we don't all have 23 thumpers to brag about. Seriously dude, you're a loving dick sometimes.

Aquila
Jan 24, 2003

Ein Bier Bitte

Mierdaan posted:

Sorry we don't all have 23 thumpers to brag about. Seriously dude, you're a loving dick sometimes.

Actually he has 27, but I had lost three and not bothered to rma a fourth when I worked there.

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006
Can't install Windows?
BUY APPLE


Mierdaan posted:

Sorry we don't all have 23 thumpers to brag about. Seriously dude, you're a loving dick sometimes.

It was a joke. Catch22 and I seemed to be having quite the lively (read: boring) argument over something I had no idea about, and I had actual content I was curious about related to this thread.

Aquila posted:

Actually he has 27, but I had lost three and not bothered to rma a fourth when I worked there.

Normally when people quit they steal stuff, not alert others of what they find. In that sense, you failed at quitting.

paperchaseguy
Feb 21, 2002

THEY'RE GONNA SAY NO

Catch 22 posted:

5 or 4 disks? Your talking about the CX line.

The AX line can be 3 or 4 disks, depending on how many SP you have.

Heh. I've installed hundreds of clariions but never an AX.

Saukkis
May 16, 2003



H110Hawk posted:

Normally when people quit they steal stuff, not alert others of what they find. In that sense, you failed at quitting.
Maybe he did that to distract you from the real loot. When was the last time you took a look at your core router? Are you sure it hasn't been replaced by a WRT54G? It could explain why my site is down.

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006
Can't install Windows?
BUY APPLE


Saukkis posted:

Maybe he did that to distract you from the real loot. When was the last time you took a look at your core router? Are you sure it hasn't been replaced by a WRT54G? It could explain why my site is down.

Don't be silly, those three thumpers are worth FAR more than some paltry core router.

(And we use an Airport Express. Can't you read my witty avatar?)

Maneki Neko
Oct 27, 2000



H110Hawk posted:

I would chalk it up to power, but this is at three different datacenter locations, with three different power feeds, one of which is many miles away. We've also had countless webservers and stuff just arbitrarily falling over. Has anyone else been having a "when it rains it pours" week with really random errors?

At this point I'm blaming bogons and the LHC.

Don't forget sunspots!

Catch 22
Dec 1, 2003
Damn it, Damn it, Damn it!

paperchaseguy posted:

Heh. I've installed hundreds of clariions but never an AX.

Most people that deal with SANs haven't (and never will) for obvious reasons, but I will say its not a bad SAN for a 5 user, small remote jungle satellite office.
No really in the right environment its fine, but you can really short yourself if you need additional functionality later.

H110Hawk posted:

some paltry core router.
What, was this your word of the day email?

Catch 22 fucked around with this message at Oct 6, 2008 around 13:57

Mierdaan
Sep 14, 2004



Didn't see this posted yet, so, HP acquires LeftHand for $360M.

Ray_
Sep 15, 2005

It was like the Colosseum in Rome and we were the Christians." - Bobby Dodd, on playing at LSU's Tiger Stadium


Guys, I need a hand.

My first project upon getting hired at my week-old job is to deploy an Exchange server, migrating away from the expensive hosted Exchange we're currently using. Over the next few days, I discover that we actually need to deploy at least 3 new servers including the Exchange box. We're in a two-server environment with one of them needing to be retired (the whole network is a mess...the loving DC is running RRAS and is the NAT for the network. Yes, I am deploying a real firewall first and foremost.) I, of course, decided to move to a virtualized infrastructure. I will buy a single box to deploy VI3 on, do a P2V conversion on the retiring DC, and use it's hardware as a DR/dev box with ESXi.

That leaves me looking at storage, and that's where I need a hand.

I need a relatively low-cost iSCSI SAN solution with as much redundancy as possible. Dual active/active controllers, RAID6, dual PSUs, etc. A few vendors have been trying to push the following on me:

Fujitsu ETERNUS2000 model 200 with 12x 300GB SAS 15k drives and redundant everything for about $14k

Hitachi SMS with 2.4TB worth of 15k SAS drives and redundant everything for about $12k

Does anyone have any experience with either of these? Does anyone have any suggestions for something else with all the redundancy AND SAS drives for the same price or cheaper?

I know I can pickup a StorVault for pretty cheap, but as far as I know they are single-controller only.

Catch 22
Dec 1, 2003
Damn it, Damn it, Damn it!

Ray_ posted:

Guys, I need a hand.

My first project upon getting hired at my week-old job is to deploy an Exchange server, migrating away from the expensive hosted Exchange we're currently using. Over the next few days, I discover that we actually need to deploy at least 3 new servers including the Exchange box. We're in a two-server environment with one of them needing to be retired (the whole network is a mess...the loving DC is running RRAS and is the NAT for the network. Yes, I am deploying a real firewall first and foremost.) I, of course, decided to move to a virtualized infrastructure. I will buy a single box to deploy VI3 on, do a P2V conversion on the retiring DC, and use it's hardware as a DR/dev box with ESXi.

That leaves me looking at storage, and that's where I need a hand.

I need a relatively low-cost iSCSI SAN solution with as much redundancy as possible. Dual active/active controllers, RAID6, dual PSUs, etc. A few vendors have been trying to push the following on me:

Fujitsu ETERNUS2000 model 200 with 12x 300GB SAS 15k drives and redundant everything for about $14k

Hitachi SMS with 2.4TB worth of 15k SAS drives and redundant everything for about $12k

Does anyone have any experience with either of these? Does anyone have any suggestions for something else with all the redundancy AND SAS drives for the same price or cheaper?

I know I can pickup a StorVault for pretty cheap, but as far as I know they are single-controller only.
You can get a basic, AX4-5i for that range too, and even a AX150 for a bit less, but read above and research on that yourself, it can screw you in the long run, but you sound small enough. 2 servers? I think your safe, but I dont know your needs 100% like you should.
Good idea on the VI3. Your on the right path.

Catch 22 fucked around with this message at Oct 6, 2008 around 16:17

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006
Can't install Windows?
BUY APPLE


Ray_ posted:

I know I can pickup a StorVault for pretty cheap, but as far as I know they are single-controller only.

StorVault is indeed single controller only. No clustering options. They are fairly robust in that netapp sort of way, but unless they've upgraded ontap it has some strange bugs that will bite you in the long run. Memory leaks in various supported/unsupported features will eventually cause them to stop working.

Failover is kinda hokey last time I tested it, in that you couldn't just move all of your disks to a cold chassis and have it work instantly. License codes are tied to the chassis, etc. Support that had trouble comprehending requests also was a minor issue.

Catch 22
Dec 1, 2003
Damn it, Damn it, Damn it!

H110Hawk posted:

Failover is kinda hokey last time I tested it, in that you couldn't just move all of your disks to a cold chassis and have it work instantly.
That's not failover you know...

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006
Can't install Windows?
BUY APPLE


Catch 22 posted:

That's not failover you know...

Yeah, it is a bad habit of mine. At work we have a system for "failing over" hardware on to new hardware. It is not the same as what everyone else refers to as a high availability clustered failover. Sorry about that misuse of the term. I did mention no clustering/single controller.

Catch 22
Dec 1, 2003
Damn it, Damn it, Damn it!

H110Hawk posted:

Yeah, it is a bad habit of mine. At work we have a system for "failing over" hardware on to new hardware. It is not the same as what everyone else refers to as a high availability clustered failover. Sorry about that misuse of the term. I did mention no clustering/single controller.
Cool. As long as you know there are better ways. I would hate for you to think that is the only "failover" available out there. Good God I think I would shoot myself if it was.

Question: Why do you have it setup for cold replacements like that? Or are you referencing that you are using StorVault meaning there is no other kind of recovery other than cold replacements.

Catch 22 fucked around with this message at Oct 6, 2008 around 17:20

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006
Can't install Windows?
BUY APPLE


Catch 22 posted:

Cool. As long as you know there are better ways. I would hate for you to think that is the only "failover" available out there. Good God I think I would shoot myself if it was.

code:
tastesgreat> cf status
Cluster enabled, lessfilling is up.
At least some of our hardware is somewhat fault tolerant.

quote:

Question: Why do you have it setup for cold replacements like that? Or are you referencing that you are using StorVault meaning there is no other kind of recovery other than cold replacements.

Cold replacement (or warm replacements in the case of some of our web servers) is a failsafe problem solver. We just order N+1 of everything and leave one sitting there. It scales out for us since normally N winds up being a very large number. Backplane goes out? Just throw in a new entire system and then work to replace the backplane on your now cold and dead system.

In reality N+1 is actually closer to N+N*5-10% depending on hardware class, reliability, ease and speed of repairs, etc.

The StorVault wound up being kind of a special case for us, we tried out two of them, own three of them (cold spare!), and they didn't work for our needs. We're migrating users off them, slowly, but the above bugs hold true for anyone who is going to use one. Internally they are pretty much like a FAS250 or whatever, only with truly off the shelf hardware.

lilbean
Oct 2, 2003



H110Hawk posted:

code:
tastesgreat> cf status
Cluster enabled, lessfilling is up.
Edit: I'm retarded.

Catch 22
Dec 1, 2003
Damn it, Damn it, Damn it!

H110Hawk posted:

code:
tastesgreat> cf status
Cluster enabled, lessfilling is up.
I wish I could name our servers something witty like that.
I'm stuck with XX-FS1, XX-FS2 etc.

Wicaeed
Feb 8, 2005


Quick question:

I'm currently on the quest to find the best free iSCSI target software for Windows based systems. So far I've tried SANmelody, which was nice but doesn't offer a free version that I could find. I was looking at Starwind iSCSI target software, but the free version is fairly limited as far as features go. What I'd like is a target software that includes at least IO read/write caching using the system memory, and support for more than one iSCSI connection at a time.

Looking around google and other tech sites, it seems theres a fairly decent offering as far as free iSCSI target software goes. Now most of this software isn't equal in terms of what it offers. Most of the free software is limited to smaller (2TB) share sizes and single iSCSI connections.

I wouldn't be concerned with shelling out a little money for a decent iSCSI initiator, as long as it supports the IO read/write caching and multiple connections.

Does anyone have recommendations as to what the best free target software is for Windows systems?

Also how hard is iSCSI to set up on a Linux computer, especially if I am not that familiar with Linux.

Catch 22
Dec 1, 2003
Damn it, Damn it, Damn it!

gently caress, I cant read.

Catch 22 fucked around with this message at Oct 7, 2008 around 15:44

optikalus
Apr 17, 2008


Wicaeed posted:

Also how hard is iSCSI to set up on a Linux computer, especially if I am not that familiar with Linux.

If you can burn an ISO, you can install FreeNAS, OpenFiler, or a few other distros. My "SAN" is just a PowerEdge attached to a PowerVault 220S running CentOS 5.2 and iscsitarget. I'm not even sure if it has IO caching or whatnot, but performance is excellent. I'd probably recommend OpenFiler over FreeNAS as FreeBSD's NFS implementation has been broken for about 150 years, and they've given up on trying to make it right. I've got no experience with their iscsi target daemon, but I wouldn't trust it.

Aquila
Jan 24, 2003

Ein Bier Bitte

At my new job my boss just asked me to get some nas quickly while we wait for power for our san*

Can anyone recommend something that can ship immediately in the $5-10k (or less maybe) range? Right now I'm thinking I'll grab a storevault s550. We've got 3-5 people working with multiple large video files (up to 50GB each) on their local systems, a mix of macs and pc's.

Also, in the long term, how does the Netapp FAS2000 series compare the to EMC AX4-5 stuff that was discussed in this thread?

*not a san at all

optikalus
Apr 17, 2008


Well, my "SAN" has just turned itself into a pile of crap.

I lost two drives and the thing is still running thanks to the hotspare and RAID5, but obviously if I lose one more drive, I'm totally F'd. I overnighted two new drives to the DC which are supposed to be identical to the ones in there, but it detects them as being just a few MB smaller so the controller won't use them.

I have two options: I can bring up a TB storage box and copy all the data to it, then steal my NAS's IP address and run it there for a little bit while I rebuild the array with the smaller drive size, or I can invest in some real hardware.

I've always wanted a NetApp, but they're not answering their phone and EMC is going to get back to me by Monday.

We've already discussed the MD3000i and the general consensus is that it is junk, but I don't recall seeing why it is junk. How does it compare against the HP MSA 2000i?

How does the EVA4100 compare to the EMC and NetApp boxes?

My upper limit is probably around 20k so recommendations around that range would be appreciated.

Ray_
Sep 15, 2005

It was like the Colosseum in Rome and we were the Christians." - Bobby Dodd, on playing at LSU's Tiger Stadium


I'm looking around the same price range as you, actually. I think I've settled on this:
http://www.hds.com/products/storage...ar-storage.html
Dual active/active controllers, RAID6 with a hot spare, 12x 300GB 15k SAS (2.7TB total), 4x gig-e NICs, and prepackaged replication and snapshotting software. Final price = $11,395.

I can't really find anything else with those features that is competitively priced.

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006
Can't install Windows?
BUY APPLE


optikalus posted:

Well, my "SAN" has just turned itself into a pile of crap.

I lost two drives and the thing is still running thanks to the hotspare and RAID5, but obviously if I lose one more drive, I'm totally F'd. I overnighted two new drives to the DC which are supposed to be identical to the ones in there, but it detects them as being just a few MB smaller so the controller won't use them.

What is your "SAN"? What brand+part number hard disks did you have in it? Did you order the exact same model disk, down to the revision, or a "compatible" one?

Guaranteed sector count is something you need to pay attention to in the future. It is a good idea to only carve 95% of your disks into your array, this lets you use the high end of them as fudge factor in case you ever have to switch disk manufacturers.

How long between disk failures? Were you able to gank the old disk before the second one failed?

optikalus
Apr 17, 2008


H110Hawk posted:

What is your "SAN"? What brand+part number hard disks did you have in it? Did you order the exact same model disk, down to the revision, or a "compatible" one?

Guaranteed sector count is something you need to pay attention to in the future. It is a good idea to only carve 95% of your disks into your array, this lets you use the high end of them as fudge factor in case you ever have to switch disk manufacturers.

How long between disk failures? Were you able to gank the old disk before the second one failed?

I quote "SAN" because it isn't really a dedicated SAN at all, just a RAID box with SAN protocols running on it.

It's just a Dell PowerVault 220S. I got a /great/ deal on it, but turns out they filled it with white-label Worlddisk drives (factory refurb Fujitsu MAW3147NCs). When I received it, I had two drives with SMART failures already, so I replaced them with two new Worlddisk drives, all good. I ordered 4 new Fujitsu-labeled drives to have on hand just-in-case. When the two drives failed, luckily the hot-spare was rebuilt just before the 2nd one failed, so I didn't lose anything. I shipped up the 4 Fujitsu drives and the NOC replace them which is when I found my dilemma.

I think at this point, I'm just going to head up there on Monday with my old SATA NAS server that I decommissioned and have yet to part out / sell, mirror the LUNs off the degraded RAID onto the SATAs, rebuild the PV220 array then copy everything back. Fun.

I'm going to check to see if my Adaptec 2130s will let me carve out a custom % of the disks to prevent this in the future -- if so, that'd be ideal as I'm sure I'll be replacing the rest of those lovely Worlddisks in the future.

There's also always the possibility that I get that hitachi posted above as that seems like an incredible deal, but I don't trust leaving the array degraded for any longer than I have to -- its already been too long heh.

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006
Can't install Windows?
BUY APPLE


optikalus posted:

I quote "SAN" because it isn't really a dedicated SAN at all, just a RAID box with SAN protocols running on it.

Fujitsu drives

Pretty much a vanilla fileserver, then? Those are some real cost savers. We're using them at work now over netapp for a lot of things. Nothing wrong with them, so long as you don't go overboard on the cheap factor. I would suggest picking up some Hitachi or Seagate 5-year warranty disks and rebuilding from scratch. This can save you a lot of money over Netapp/HDS/EMC, and likely give you as much reliability as you need.

I don't know about recent years, but around 8-10 years ago my uncle worked for a company that assembled and sold raid systems, I forget the name. He managed the disk burn-in and certification for their units. He told me never ever to buy Fujitsu disks. They apparently hit 50% failure in about half the time as all other major brands. We got a batch of brand new Fujitsu-label 15k disks, and they still seem to fail about twice as often as the Seagate equivalents. I don't have hard numbers, though, so I don't know if it's just the bad taste left in my mouth by my creepy uncle, or if they really do still suck.

R-Type
Oct 10, 2005


H110Hawk posted:

Pretty much a vanilla fileserver, then? Those are some real cost savers. We're using them at work now over netapp for a lot of things. Nothing wrong with them, so long as you don't go overboard on the cheap factor. I would suggest picking up some Hitachi or Seagate 5-year warranty disks and rebuilding from scratch. This can save you a lot of money over Netapp/HDS/EMC, and likely give you as much reliability as you need.

I don't know about recent years, but around 8-10 years ago my uncle worked for a company that assembled and sold raid systems, I forget the name. He managed the disk burn-in and certification for their units. He told me never ever to buy Fujitsu disks. They apparently hit 50% failure in about half the time as all other major brands. We got a batch of brand new Fujitsu-label 15k disks, and they still seem to fail about twice as often as the Seagate equivalents. I don't have hard numbers, though, so I don't know if it's just the bad taste left in my mouth by my creepy uncle, or if they really do still suck.

I have a pile, nay, a brickpile of Fujitsu's in our storage room. Literally a small wooden skid with a piece of cardboard on it, drives in ASB's, another piece of cardboard, more drives in ASB's, so on, layered. This is our RMA pile that goes back to a major SAN/NAS manufacturer in a few weeks. We have a NDA on failures since we are a VAR - I'm sorry I can't disclose the name directly...

Listening to echos, Mike came closer to the ledge.

paperchaseguy
Feb 21, 2002

THEY'RE GONNA SAY NO

micropolis drives

Aquila
Jan 24, 2003

Ein Bier Bitte

Ray_ posted:

I'm looking around the same price range as you, actually. I think I've settled on this:
http://www.hds.com/products/storage...ar-storage.html
Dual active/active controllers, RAID6 with a hot spare, 12x 300GB 15k SAS (2.7TB total), 4x gig-e NICs, and prepackaged replication and snapshotting software. Final price = $11,395.

I can't really find anything else with those features that is competitively priced.

Did you ever purchase this? I'm torn between one of these (except with 750gb or 1tb sata drives) and a similar Netapp Storvault s550.

As far as I can tell I'd be paying ~$5000 more for the Netapp name (and associated very nice things).

Does anyone here have any hands on experience with either of these? Are there any forums or sites out there more dedicated to high end storage?

1000101
May 14, 2003

BIRTHDAY BIRTHDAY BIRTHDAY BIRTHDAY BIRTHDAY BIRTHDAY FRUITCAKE!

I wanted to comment on your post Vanilla, mostly because it's just tossing out the same argument that EMC sales reps throw to my customers that largely gets ignored.

quote:

What EMC doesn't do is have the blanket virtualisation of a single array. If we look at the EVA it all sounds really great but there are some downsides as I spend my time working with the users of the EVA often, old and new EVA's. Many admins have come from a background of control and having this taken away by an array that wants to decide where to put things is uncomfortable. When you have lots on a box this is not good, especially without any form of dynamic tuning other than making new groups.

This assumes everyone wants a dedicated storage administrator managing their data.

I'm finding that even in large enterprises, most application owners and storage admins don't really give a poo poo where the data goes as long as:

1. performance is consistent
2. Availability is consistent

Even still, it's trivially easy on most every system that does block level virtualization to force data on specific disks to provide that isolation.

This feature becomes EXTREMELY important in the SMB space. That company with <1500 employees doesn't want to hire a dedicated storage administrator to keep track of what LUN is on what RAID group and what spares are assigned to what RAID group. It's a lot of extra overhead and quite frankly an unnecessary salary for a majority of the cases out there.

Ray_
Sep 15, 2005

It was like the Colosseum in Rome and we were the Christians." - Bobby Dodd, on playing at LSU's Tiger Stadium


Aquila posted:

Did you ever purchase this? I'm torn between one of these (except with 750gb or 1tb sata drives) and a similar Netapp Storvault s550.

As far as I can tell I'd be paying ~$5000 more for the Netapp name (and associated very nice things).

Does anyone here have any hands on experience with either of these? Are there any forums or sites out there more dedicated to high end storage?

I actually just placed the order today after doing as much research as possible.

The massive amount of redundancy in the box along with not being able to find any negative press or reviews sold me on it.

I was looking at the StorVaults too, but the lack of redundancy ruled them out for me.

Aquila
Jan 24, 2003

Ein Bier Bitte

Ray_ posted:

I actually just placed the order today after doing as much research as possible.

The massive amount of redundancy in the box along with not being able to find any negative press or reviews sold me on it.

I was looking at the StorVaults too, but the lack of redundancy ruled them out for me.

As far as I can tell storevaults and the sms 100's are nearly identical in terms of redundancy, or can be ordered as such. Two things have me leaning towards the netapp though, the main one being no nfs or cifs (iSCSI only) as far as I can tell on the sms 100, and the minor one being no user serviceable parts on the sms 100 (including drives).

My Netapp sales guy also pointed out that the hitachi uses copy on write snapshots, while netapp uses point in time, the former causing a performance hit while running, the latter not.

The price on the sms 100 is definitely better than the s550. A Hitachi sales person should be contacting me soon so I'll try to get definite word on the nfs/cifs issue.

Ray_
Sep 15, 2005

It was like the Colosseum in Rome and we were the Christians." - Bobby Dodd, on playing at LSU's Tiger Stadium


Woah woah woah, as far as I know, the s550's only ship with a single controller. Did my reps tell me wrong?

markus876
Aug 18, 2002

I am a comedy trap.

Ray_ posted:

Woah woah woah, as far as I know, the s550's only ship with a single controller. Did my reps tell me wrong?

See:
http://www.netapp.com/us/products/s...comparison.html

"Full Hardware Redundancy: No"

Aquila
Jan 24, 2003

Ein Bier Bitte

Ray_ posted:

Woah woah woah, as far as I know, the s550's only ship with a single controller. Did my reps tell me wrong?

Oops, totally my mistake there, I've been looking at way too many different products lately.

If only I'd been wrong on the no nfs/cifs thing.

Wicaeed
Feb 8, 2005


drat this thread hasn't seen any action for a while.

Anyways, a customer at our DC is getting rid of some old (read: ancient) stuff. Amongst that stuff is an ancient Netapp FAS270 filer head with two or three HD magazines that go with it. I've been thinking of picking it up out of curiosity if I can get it on the cheap, just so I can dabble in some SAN crap. I don't think anything is wrong with it, their tech says his notes tell him that it was phased out for being too monstrous :3

How hopelessly outdated are these things? I believe the HDD magazine has 36GB drives in it, and I know my company has about 9 or 10 older magazines with 16GB drives in them.

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006
Can't install Windows?
BUY APPLE


Wicaeed posted:

How hopelessly outdated are these things? I believe the HDD magazine has 36GB drives in it, and I know my company has about 9 or 10 older magazines with 16GB drives in them.

As long as it has something like ontap 6 on it you should be able to get a feel for it. Have fun. See if they have any hard-copy manuals for it, or ontap installation diskettes.

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Wicaeed
Feb 8, 2005


And if they don't, is there an easy way to get documentation/OS for it?

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