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jhoc posted:Is anyone here selling landscape and scenic prints as their business? I know there is one goon who does this and I really dug his stuff when he posted it in an Ask/Tell thread. I'm wondering how tough it is to get into as a part-time thing and if anyone has any pointers. I am also very interested in this, I have sold a few prints from people asking but I would love a better way to do this and promote my stuff better.
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Jan 20, 2009 03:42
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A "cease and desist" isn't some form you go get from a judge. You just write a letter and use the words "cease and desist". Anything other than those words (notice how they say "remove") is basically some variation of "we have no standing to ask for you to take these down so pretty please with sugar on top".
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Jan 20, 2009 03:45
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brad industry posted:A "cease and desist" isn't some form you go get from a judge. You just write a letter and use the words "cease and desist". Anything other than those words (notice how they say "remove") is basically some variation of "we have no standing to ask for you to take these down so pretty please with sugar on top". Courts may issue them but my main point was lawyer. Usually lawyers draw them up though since they're the ones who like to mince words and poo poo. Yeah I suppose you could draw one up yourself but that's not really conducive if you want to sue someone since someone else's lawyer may pick it apart.
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Jan 20, 2009 04:03
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Alright, since we're in my wheel house, I think I might take a minute to put some wall of text up and see if we can't dispel some rumors here. Disclaimer First things first, I am not your lawyer. Depending on your definition there are no less than 52 jurisdictions of American law, this scenario may not apply to you and should not be used to count as actual legal advice. Think of this as watching an episode of law and order without a plot. If you have legal troubles/questions/or want real advice, go ask someone locally who can give you good advice that is actually relevant to your situation. Now that we got that out of the way on to the good stuff. First, most people's understanding of law is based on their local jurisdictions( or, worse, depictions in the media). This works at the pub over a pint, but not when you are basing real world decisions on them. First thing to remember is most of this advice - including mine - is coming from people in America. We have a first amendment which is generally held in high regard by our courts. Your mileage in the merry old land of Oz might come out a bit different. All that said, the Ausie system is (I'm fairly sure) passed down from merry old England; so we can talk real quickly about the general procedures of a typical suit. If they do decide they should lawyer up and sue, there is a process. They (assuming they are smart) will issue a letter known as a Demand letter. In a demand letter they assert their rights, what you have done wrong, their cause of action (Battery/Defimation/Etc) and what you can do to avoid litigation (Stop, Appologize and/or Pay damages). This often comes as in this case in the form of a Cease and Desist letter. The Demand letter is not a requirement of a law suit. The only functional benefit of the letter is that for certain types of law suits, damages are only available once notice is provided (Like copyright infringement suits). A written letter can be notice, as can filing of a law suit. A Demand letter does not require the magical words Cease and/or Desist. Contrary to popular belief, most judges are smart enough to know that the intent of the letter matters more than the direct wording. Making a clear letter has benefits as you won't have to litigate that it's notice, if you need it - but it's not a requirement anyway. This letter however only uses the request. No demands or assertions of ownership of your photos have been made, only request that you remove them. Even if they don't warn you before suing, they will have to serve notice that you have been sued. After notice, you will have an initial hearing. At which time you will have an opportunity for preliminary/discovery motions. The key here would be to request Summary Judgment. Since there are no issues of material fact here, the case could be decided as a matter of law and the motion would likely be granted. In which case a brief is filed with the court on each side and after reading the court would issue an opinion. From there the loser could appeal, and the after new briefs were filed it could be finally disposed of (at least in the US). If they deny your motion, then it would have to be litigated completely (mostly) and you should bend over and prepare for the fun. However, I do believe that unlike the US of A that Australia prescribes to the English rule of Attorney's Fees or sometimes called 'Loser Pays.' Essentially if they sue you, and you win, you get all your defense costs back. If you however fight it and lose, you are then the loser, and well that just sucks. In the USA you generally need a truely frivolous suit and a sympothetic judge to get damages (In federal court, everything else is state dependent). The above was not legal advice, entertainment purposes only germskr posted:Courts may issue them but my main point was lawyer. Usually lawyers draw them up though since they're the ones who like to mince words and poo poo. Yeah I suppose you could draw one up yourself but that's not really conducive if you want to sue someone since someone else's lawyer may pick it apart. You are thinking of an Injunction. Violating an injunction is Contempt of Court. The rule of Collateral bar says that if you violate an injunction, you are liable (jail/fines) - even if you get the injunction removed/overturned later. A Cease and Desist letter can be generally violated and litigated later. KennyG fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Jan 21, 2009 |
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Jan 21, 2009 04:42
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I just sent my first big email campaign using MailChimp and wanted to recommend them for anyone who needs to set up a list. Their website is really slick and made the whole thing easy, and the level of tracking detail you get is ridiculous (I can see who opened the email, who clicked, etc. and it integrates with Google Analytics so I can see exactly what they clicked on and how long they spent on my site). It was pretty cheap too (doing pay as you go, cost me $30 to send to about ~1000 contacts).
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Jan 21, 2009 21:40
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OK, my turn to Ask Brad™ (and anyone else who will listen). I was approached by Large-Sized Executive Jet Company (real name hidden to protect the innocent) to photograph some of their jets based at an airport near me. I've never done an actual for-profit shoot before for a jet company. They're looking for shots of two jets, interior and exterior. I'm going to be talking with them on the phone tomorrow. I guess the first question is how much should I charge for, say, a day's worth of shooting? Keep in mind I live in the Boston area, I have no idea what the average photographer around here does for that. I suppose this would also account for post processing time. This is the big one for me as I have no idea what to charge. If I was doing graphic design time it would be something in the range of $85 an hour. The next question is let's say they want both prints and rights to use the images in advertising, magazines, etc. I've done photo sales before and I'm aware of the pitfalls, and right now I don't know exactly what these people want to do (is it for classifieds, or for showing potential users of the jets?). I also don't know if there'll be action shots or if it'll just be hangar shots (probably the latter). Basically I'm going in to this green. Any and all advice is appreciated. As far as gear goes I've got everything I need, so I'm not worried on that point... except perhaps a good set of legs and a head. Time for a new tripod I guess.
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Jan 27, 2009 02:14
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Brad and others will have to help you with much of this, but one thin I can say flat-out is that you shouldn't charge by the hour unless maybe you're doing portraits or overtime on a wedding. Charge based on your expenses, the anticipated use of the images, and the profits you're aiming for. This has to be tempered by what rivals might be charging, but hourly rates can be a recipe for disaster.
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Jan 27, 2009 15:23
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Nihiliste posted:Brad and others will have to help you with much of this, but one thin I can say flat-out is that you shouldn't charge by the hour unless maybe you're doing portraits or overtime on a wedding. Charge based on your expenses, the anticipated use of the images, and the profits you're aiming for. This has to be tempered by what rivals might be charging, but hourly rates can be a recipe for disaster. Well, my expenses would be the cost of gas to drive to the field, wear and tear on my camera equipment, post processing time, my own time on the field... Potential use looks to be for displaying to potential clients. Maybe publishing on web or mags. I just don't know the specific usage yet. The problem is I don't have enough information yet. Hopefully I'll know more this afternoon. Up to this point I've basically sold prints and single-run licenses for images, so this is really new territory for me.
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Jan 27, 2009 15:50
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kefkafloyd posted:Well, my expenses would be the cost of gas to drive to the field, wear and tear on my camera equipment, post processing time, my own time on the field... Make sure you specify in the license what their rights to usage are and where their rights end- so yes, they can print and use your images in brochures and web but they cannot sell those images to any third party (believe me, this will happen enough to piss you off if you're not specific). Also make sure you make it clear to them that you own the rest of the rights and copyrights to the photos. They need to know and understand that so you don't get accusations later. You did forget one of the most important aspects when working with a company and that was to ask the marketing people and/or art director what their budget was. Even a ball park estimate can help you adjust your pricing so you don't scare them away and you both get something very reasonable. Also, do not start taking pictures for them until you have something spelled out in writing and signed by both you and whoever is signing your check where it specifies what they expect you to deliver and what you expect to receive out of this. An overhead fee plus some percentage of the total shoot for your time/creativity is a must. I lost 250 last December because I got so anxious to shoot the job that I overlooked the fact that the rear end in a top hat owner kept putting off the signing of any papers. Just make sure they aren't wasting your time and there's no better way than getting it documented. Verbal assurance is about as good as the farts that come out their asses- they linger for awhile but then disappear. Edit: as it is Boston, prices around here are not that competitive as opposed to if you were out in Bumville. There's a program called "photoquote" which can be reasonable... If you use that, take the prices and go about 50-60% of what the market goes for. Sucks that we live in a city. germskr fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Jan 27, 2009 |
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Jan 27, 2009 15:58
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germskr posted:Make sure you specify in the license what their rights to usage are and where their rights end- so yes, they can print and use your images in brochures and web but they cannot sell those images to any third party (believe me, this will happen enough to piss you off if you're not specific). Also make sure you make it clear to them that you own the rest of the rights and copyrights to the photos. They need to know and understand that so you don't get accusations later. Yeah, I've done the license shuffle before and I've got some good boilerplate that says what it can and can't be used for. It hasn't been as airtight as I would like it to be, but lawyers are expensive. I don't know the budget yet because I'm due to talk to them on the phone this afternoon. That was one key thing I was going to ask about but a reminder is always helpful. Ultimately I want to be fair but I see it as an opportunity for me. This isn't some bumfuck company that has one or two jets, it's a large multinational corporation. I suppose that works both ways in that they've got money BUT the economy sucks and they're probably looking to save as much as they can. I need to look into that Photoquote program, I've been selling more and more stuff lately and it feels like I've been undervaluing my work. Thank for the advice. 
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Jan 27, 2009 16:41
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Its pretty good, but VERY specific. You'll need to find out exactly what the use its going to be. There are TONS of options. Brad has it, he could find out which one applies to you, 'cause I have no clue where you would fall in.
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Jan 27, 2009 17:17
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Yes your time has nothing to do with what you charge. Find out exactly (like, in writing) everything they want as far as usage goes. Then estimate what your expenses will be. Then find out what their budget is and figure out a way to reconcile those 3 things. Then negotiate from there. Larger companies are easier to deal with because they generally know exactly what the budget is and they have so many vendors they work with that they understand they're not going to get it for free and that things like this cost money. Don't lowball them or undersell yourself. If you have to drop your price because of the budget then they should lose something, anything, from whatever you were originally talking about (usage, period of use, etc. less money = less value for them). I usually include one or two 'extra' things in my original estimates that I can then drop if my quote doesn't fit their budget. Also "wear and tear on your equipment" = charge as a line item rental expense. I generally just look up whatever it would cost to rent my own equipment from a rental house and then discount that by a percentage (depending on the budget). I have Fotoquote, PM me if you want to look something up. It's not always right but it at least gives you a starting point.
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Jan 27, 2009 20:07
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With regard to assisting, is it something you can do (free or otherwise) on weekends while you have a regular 9-5 job during the week? Or is it wise to do paid assisting full time? My question would be whether it pays enough to support rent and living expenses. The area I'm in (NJ/NYC) has a very high cost of living so the pay would have to be fairly decent.
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Jan 28, 2009 21:04
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Assisting in NYC should be no less than 600 a day. Vincent Laforet said it's stupid to assist for free. I think you should just take it as a case by case basis- are you learning something valuable to your trade and what you want to do in the future? I mean we'd all like to have a boss like Laforet but not everybody gets a budget like he does. But yeah, since you're close to NYC you will most likely get paid very well for your efforts. Lucky bastard, Boston is STINGY.
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Jan 28, 2009 22:49
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germskr posted:Assisting in NYC should be no less than 600 a day. Vincent Laforet said it's stupid to assist for free. I think you should just take it as a case by case basis- are you learning something valuable to your trade and what you want to do in the future? I mean we'd all like to have a boss like Laforet but not everybody gets a budget like he does. But yeah, since you're close to NYC you will most likely get paid very well for your efforts. Lucky bastard, Boston is STINGY. $600 a day? Is this consistent work too? I think I'm in the wrong profession...
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Jan 28, 2009 22:53
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Where are you getting $600/day from? I assisted in NYC and rates were (and still are) $200ish. Maybe $300 if you are an experienced first assistant. I have never heard of anyone being paid that much. I wish rates were that high. Half the time when I shoot editorial I don't even make that much for the day, much less my assistant. Most I have ever paid an assistant is $250. Anyways, yes you can assist on weekends but obviously that severely limits the jobs you can pick up.
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Jan 28, 2009 23:09
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brad industry posted:Where are you getting $600/day from? I assisted in NYC and rates were (and still are) $200ish. Maybe $300 if you are an experienced first assistant. I have never heard of anyone being paid that much. Really? My friend works for a photographer as workflow management guy. They shoot tons of make up product stuff, and typically have 2-3 assistants in addition to him manning the computer. That might be why he makes 600 but a regular photographer's assistant still pulls in more than 250-300. I'll talk to him later but last time he told me to come on down because the pay was 400 for the day and it was all billed to the client so the photographer still got his ridiculous day rate.
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Jan 28, 2009 23:50
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Your friend is a digital tech which is different. 200-300 is pretty standard, I wasn't in NYC that long ago (I used to hire the assistants for the agency I was working at) and have friends there assisting now who are charging those rates. Not that assistants making that much don't exist, but they are career assistants with years and years of experience and are pulling a lot more weight than you would normally be expected to on your average assisting job (they are more like production managers than assistants, organizing the other assistants/techs and technical parts of the shoot). I mean I am pretty experienced and my rate for assisting is $250/day. $300+ days come along pretty rarely and aren't the norm. edit: although if he is paying 400+ PM/email me his info because I have friends in NYC who would love to know brad industry fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Jan 29, 2009 |
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Jan 29, 2009 00:05
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I've been weighing these rates and... I don't know. I somehow can't believe they're this good, even in New York. Let's say it's $200/day. That's $1,000 a week or $50,000/year. No way you can make that kind of money working as an assistant unless: A) you are always working. B) you are always working for a good photographer. What about the guys lower down on the totem pole? And then what happens when the jobs dry up, like now, for instance in this economy? The market sucks, people aren't hiring photographers like they were before, and the jobs that do come around get filled immediately with the best help. I've never assisted, so what are my chances? I'm getting discouraged. 
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Jan 29, 2009 00:33
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What I need is a list of Canadian associations that actually meet, regularly, in Ottawa. It seems like Ottawa doesn't even exist in terms of the big meetings here.
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Jan 29, 2009 03:36
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Mannequin posted:What about the guys lower down on the totem pole? And then what happens when the jobs dry up, like now, for instance in this economy? The market sucks, people aren't hiring photographers like they were before, and the jobs that do come around get filled immediately with the best help. I've never assisted, so what are my chances? Like a lot of different jobs it's who you know. I assisted a few photogs that I either met through photography school or friend of a friend. At the most I would get a handfull of shoots a month and I was usually paid 175 to 200 a day. Full time assisting gigs usually pay by the hour, and in Florida it ain't much, not sure about NYC or anywhere else. I guess my point is network your rear end off. Because honestly, It doesn't take a whole lot of skill to assist, and anyone that's smart and quick on their feet can do it, you don't really need to have any photography skills. Most of it is loading/unloading equipment and moving lights around and whatever other mundane tasks the photographer doesn't have time for. That being said, you still learn a lot from watching and it's valuable experience to photographers looking to break into the trade. Get yourself out there, go to photography conventions, whatever you need to do to make yourself known in your immediate photography community. Let them know you're available to assist and later on, months or even years down the road, they'll need help and remember you. Even if you're working as a photographer, assisting now and then helps out a lot. I NEVER turned down an assisting gig unless I was already committed somewhere else. Keep yourself visible and your name out in your photography community and eventually you'll start getting gigs.
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Jan 30, 2009 02:48
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Mannequin posted:Let's say it's $200/day. That's $1,000 a week or $50,000/year. You'll be freelancing so $1000/week, every week is a dream. Let's just say if you have expensive taste or like buying shiny things or going out a lot this industry probably isn't for you, starting out is hard. brad industry fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Jan 30, 2009 |
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Jan 30, 2009 03:09
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brad industry posted:You'll be freelancing so $1000/week, every week is a dream. Haha, you ain't kidding. When I first started shooting NASCAR races it was on spec and I was sleeping in a tent. "Paying your dues" has never been so true as it is in the professional photography industry.
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Jan 30, 2009 03:39
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brad industry posted:You'll be freelancing so $1000/week, every week is a dream. Lets not forget taxes, man I remember doing taxes as a freelancer. ouch
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Jan 30, 2009 06:44
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Or healthcare. I just applied for some bare minimum catastrophic plan and got denied because I had a sore throat once 4+ years ago.
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Jan 30, 2009 07:33
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brad industry posted:Or healthcare. I just applied for some bare minimum catastrophic plan and got denied because I had a sore throat once 4+ years ago. Solution: move to Canada.
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Jan 30, 2009 14:04
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Nihiliste posted:Solution: move to Canada. Or any country that's moved into the 21 century.
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Jan 30, 2009 15:03
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poopinmymouth posted:Or any country that's moved into the 21 century. I'm sorry I thought this was the Photo Business thread not the politics thread. As a small business entrepreneur you may look into state subsidized plans. I know Mass (where I used to live) and Indiana (where I currently live) have state subsidized health plans based on income that are prohibited from denying your coverage based on health (at least if it really was just a sore throat). If you can show that you make less than double the state poverty level (not too hard for small business owners) you may be able to get sweet coverage on the cheap. IIRC, brad, you live in CA (Edit4Clarity: Cali, not Canada), I would imagine the dirty hippie socialists out there would have created some sort of state subsidized plan, check with your local health/human services office. KennyG fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Jan 30, 2009 |
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Jan 30, 2009 16:28
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Nihiliste posted:Solution: move to Canada. I was going to suggest this but then you get screwed on other things so there are some pros and cons.
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Jan 30, 2009 17:23
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This isn't quite a business question but it could expand to that. There is a local racetrack that has just opened last month. I'd like to make contact with them to get permission for track access during some events during which I could expand my portfolio. Eventually I'd like to make a few bucks on the weekend shooting the rich people and their toys. Any suggestions on how to approach this?
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Jan 31, 2009 01:07
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w_hat posted:This isn't quite a business question but it could expand to that. There is a local racetrack that has just opened last month. I'd like to make contact with them to get permission for track access during some events during which I could expand my portfolio. Eventually I'd like to make a few bucks on the weekend shooting the rich people and their toys. Any suggestions on how to approach this? Get in touch with a local weekly or daily paper and see if they would like someone to cover some events at the new track. That way you can get a media credential and you should be more than likely to get in because the track will want the publicity. Or try talking to the media rep at the track to see if they'll just let you in. It's a long shot because you usually need a reason to be there. They usually aren't going to let you have media access just so you can fill your portfolio, but you never know. Some tracks let in commercial photogs that take photos for the teams and drivers, but these guys are usually already established in local racing and have connections with the track owners and promoters. But everyone has to start somewhere. Find out who the track owners and promoters are and talk to them about it, the worst they can do is say no. You could also find out who the team/driver photogs are and see if they need help. Applebees Appetizer fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Jan 31, 2009 |
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Jan 31, 2009 04:06
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Horse racing loves anything that'll give it a positive image in the public eye, what with all the animal rights folks and anti-gambling folks ragging on them. First off, I'd just ask. For events (non-horsey), sometimes I've requested permission for photo access and the organizer has been like: "Hell yeah. Why are you even bothering to ask?" But it never hurts to be sure. Also, you could try requesting permission to photograph a training session or something where it's not game day. If that fails, yeah the local media is probably your best bet. See all those free magazines and newspapers in the racks by the doors of restaurants and stores? Hit those guys up. The less money the media outlet makes, the more likely they are to be volunteer-powered so they'll take anyone they can get. Even the smallest rag has a chance of getting you into something you couldn't get yourself into.
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Jan 31, 2009 18:36
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Are there any sites that will handhold you through the creation of a business plan?
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Jan 31, 2009 19:16
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Nihiliste posted:Are there any sites that will handhold you through the creation of a business plan? http://www.sba.gov/smallbusinessplanner/index.html - for how-to/info http://www.planhq.com/ - for a great online business plan tool
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Feb 1, 2009 08:21
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Nihiliste posted:Are there any sites that will handhold you through the creation of a business plan? I think this thread is the closest thing we got.
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Feb 1, 2009 11:43
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mcsuede posted:http://www.sba.gov/smallbusinessplanner/index.html - for how-to/info I should note that I'm Canadian. I'll see what I can do, though, thanks.
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Feb 1, 2009 22:50
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Just thought I would follow up on my situation. The shoot is scheduled, terms negotiated, and I think I'll be making some decent coin. Thanks for all the help from everyone in here. It looks like I'll be doing a few more if this first one is a success.
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Feb 2, 2009 23:08
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leica posted:This is a pretty small place with no sponsors yet so I'm really trying to get in on the ground floor so to speak. This is good advice though, I'll fall back on the media thing if I can't get in contact with the owner/powers that be. HPL posted:Well, it's a car racing track so I'm sure liability is going to be a big issue. Maybe I can sucker a local indie mag into wanting a review. Though I'm not sure any of the local magazines would care about a race track unless it was a negative article.
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Feb 3, 2009 02:04
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w_hat posted:Well, it's a car racing track so I'm sure liability is going to be a big issue. Maybe I can sucker a local indie mag into wanting a review. Though I'm not sure any of the local magazines would care about a race track unless it was a negative article. drat, why was I thinking horses? One way in would be to find out if there are any local car clubs that do race nights there or something. Maybe you could ask if you could shoot them zipping around the track? People in car clubs are there for a reason, because they're proud of their cars so any chance to flaunt it would probably be welcomed.
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Feb 3, 2009 02:17
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HPL posted:drat, why was I thinking horses? You weren't the only one -- I thought it was a horse racing track until I read "rich people and their toys". Well, it seems things are picking up a little bit. Last night, I shot a retirement party hosted by my girlfriend's mother, and while there I had a guest approach me and ask if I would be interested in covering a baby shower she was throwing (we were printing the photos on-site, so hopefully if she was happy enough to hire me with straight-out-of-the-camera prints off of a mediocre printer, she'll be impressed with properly processed photos). Also, I'm covering a wedding for my brother's friend in June. I really need to get a portfolio together in a nice, presentable form.
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Feb 8, 2009 20:12
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