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^^^^ Holy poo poo, this times a hundred. If you can't stand politics in your imaginary fantasy land, then I'd highly suggest never reading fiction ever again. Growing up as a kid that read widely before he found fantasy books, then reading large piles of TSR-branded product, then growing vastly tired with the general morass of the genre and what people actually prop up as good fiction (ie, Jordan et al), I was so glad to find these books. I liked PSS okay, and thought of it as a bizarre Star Wars/DnD/Final Fantasy mashup, which was fine by me at the time. It definitely aided in my quest to find new types of fantasy. Most of the criticisms I have about it have been mentioned, but my own observation about it is this: China made the city its own character, and it's clear by the opening quote that he loves urbanity, and I love when people put that much care and detail into the environment like that. Haven't read The Scar yet, and I'm holding off for a while, but Iron Council was loving fantastic, for me. It does roll along slowly, and the delivery of it is strange at first, but again, the details and the imagery far outweigh the thin characters (even though Judah Low is one of the best anti-heroes ever). Although, there are plenty of folks that think Mieville is not all that. Here's an illucidating quote from over in one of the recommendation threads: Bell_Canto posted:Mieville is bad because he's NOT a competent writer. His prose is a knotted mess of unnecessary syllables that bad readers mistake for "lyrical" writing, and he makes awful use of comma splices in an attempt to make his descriptions seem more vivid and immediate. Also, I'm not sure how you think he's doing anything new; he takes genre tropes and combines them in unusual ways, but he doesn't have anything new to say. Finally, the comparison to Lovecraft is no defense at all. Lovecraft had many of the same literary faults as Mieville, especially his tendency toward over-inflated language. I did mention Lovecraft as a comparison, but not so much a defense. Anyway, apparently we're all of us 'bad readers' or some shite because for some reason I can stomach this but not most other fantasy. Also, it's pretty lols for someone to be complaining about Mieville doing nothing new in a thread where most of the recommendations are about the same old same old. Fantasy is all about merging and trying new ideas in fantastic settings, and I believe Mieville does it well, and his love of language comes across very well, if a little over-zealous. (Also, I noticed very few comma splices, so I don't know what this cat is talkin bout) (Also, he should go back to his lit theory class) Suffice it to say that this man and Martin have reaffirmed my love of the genre, and given me many, many ideas as well.
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Jan 23, 2009 07:20
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^^^^ Haven't read it, but there sure is one in Iron Council. Casimir Radon posted:Not what I was getting at. I was just wondering if a good story eclipses preachy bullshit. Sorry, wasn't singling you out; it was much more generic bookrage. The thing I like the most about Mieville is, and I think a lot of critics don't seem to latch onto it, is that he loves language as well as fantasy and monsters. Each book is different in approach, and he tries to keep it interesting to himself, as well as to readers. I can see how that detriments character development, but everything else gets amped up in quality or just imagination. Kind of like Grant Morrison, really. It's the ideas that count, not the plot holes or (really not as overblown) politics that get caught up in the stories.
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Feb 4, 2009 02:29
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Turpitude posted:This is a very good post! Now do Iron Council please Here's my off-the-cuff rendering of the end of Iron Council, most likely missing out on some key things. Though I'm sure he didn't fully intend it to be, the book IC is split up into the distinct process of journey/exploration that is part of fantasy, and its resolution never really comes about. The train is always coming, always arriving in the end, and it's made out that all the characters were incidental (except, of course, Judah). No matter what they did, they weren't bigger than the composite whole of the myth of the Iron Council. The expectation of their return is always there, and it's played off against the industrialists, the workers, the guerilla/terrorist groups in Bas-Lag, etc. The Tesh war gets resolved almost unbeknownst to anyone, the murder of Stem-Fulcher means nothing, the uprisings are put down, and the expectation of the government that they will of course put the Council down is, for them, business as usual. The government itself is that necessary entity that is neither good nor evil, such that even though it's gone through a civil and international war, it grinds on and on, along its own path. The end puts a kink in this because of Judah, who was the only element out of place, thanks to his journey and his will to effect a real change at the end stopping the train. Judah's journey intersects with the motion of the train against the movements of the government and leaves things at perpetual stalemate. The train's journey then becomes this permanent message that means so much more than being casually wiped out by government troops would have. This leads into the perpetual motion of the printing presses of RR being started back up in the end. Although nothing ever really comes of it, there always needs to be something to show dissent, and now there is a permanent one in the form of the Council, even if it's a relatively small reminder. Maybe a bit simple, but the book being mostly about Judah and his version of The Hero's Journey kind of forces its hand that way. SaviourX fucked around with this message at 11:02 on Feb 24, 2009 |
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Feb 24, 2009 10:59
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is it anti industrialism with the whole train through the swamp thing? What are the most Marxist parts of the book?
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Except that I would say that China has about 1000x times the imagination and excitement of Murikami. gently caress that guy.
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May 26, 2009 22:37
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Grand Fromage posted:I don't recall him ever saying anything about the train moving faster than the rail could be laid, I don't see how this is a problem. Well yeah, it just takes them a gently caress of a long time to get anywhere, thus deliberately going through smokestone and the Torque; they also have a bunch of remade working day and night. I see it as about a mile of track, and they crawl about a mile an hour. Also, I don't think the militia sabotaged their return because A) they were too busy with the war, B) they thought the elementalists would stop them, and C) the industrialist had other ideas.
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Jun 2, 2009 07:40
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Well jesus christ, it would have been nice for this to actually be announced somewhere; I could have actually driven down to Seattle today to see him.
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Jun 5, 2009 20:24
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Megazver posted:I stopped reading Iron Council because people lugging a train around by pulling up the tracks behind it and laying them in front of it for no reason whatsoever that I can discern was effing ridiculous. Spoilers Below! Because there was nowhere else they could go, and because they had nothing else better to do and had nothing in common but the godamn railroad? Also, considering it's the only one in the world (rail and engine and all) kind of makes it extremely valuable. Not to mention reMade freeing themselves from being social pariahs but not being very smart in the process made it so they had to live like nomads? I'm pretty sure in a fantasy novel you have to allow a few stretches, come on. It's not like it came out of nowhere and didn't have any context and it's not like they actually are sedentary when Judah finds them again or anything.
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Sep 11, 2009 21:44
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gently caress yes, just got City and the City from the liberry. And on his works I've read, readers should get Perdido expecting an introduction to a world and setting and an ok story about monster-hunting, then move on to either The Scar or, if you can stand experimental and politicized stories, Iron Council, because either are better than the first, though you kind of need the first to know what's going on.
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Oct 9, 2009 02:51
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Had me at "renegade squid-worshiper". But I do hope it isn't couched in the stilted, byzantine prose of TC&TC. How can there be 100 pages left?!
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Oct 27, 2009 04:35
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New weird ain't necessarily about the horror, more about the strangeness of new(ish) worlds and cultures.
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Nov 5, 2009 10:28
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Finally finished TC&TC the other day, and while I appreciate his writing it for his mum, I wish he would have kept it as an academic treatise or something. He went so far to the analytical spectrum that it kind of ruined any momentum or interest that was held by the story itself. The world hinted at by the novel really was cursory to whatever thesis he was trying to work up, and in the end the main thrust of the work only really served to be a 'welp, this this is the most exciting thing to happen in a long while and even though things have changed now, story's over, move along' sort of thing. It seems like he part wanted it to be this morass of stilted language, purposefully thick to get through and dislocating, but I just wanted to get through it and be done with it and it never served the narrative as much as it did in the Bas-Lag books. Oh well. E: Also, Chandler-esque dialogue in Eastern Europe. Not working.
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Nov 8, 2009 11:18
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Bleh, after the intensity and sheer delight I got out of Council (political comments aside, which is a really weak excuse to not like a book, btw, especially since they were in PSS too), TC&TC was just so much pretentious 'but which of us is, like, real... man...' posturing mixed up in stilted dialogue that wanted to be Chandler-like but wasn't, I barely even finished it. Still in the early stages of The Scar, and while I freely admit that one shouldn't read these books for character, the imagination and style behind them are excellent.
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Feb 1, 2010 07:08
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I think I'm going to have to reconcile the fact that I like fragmented narratives that have a lot more to do with imagery and language than they do with actual character, because I still love the gently caress out of IC. And as someone that has actually read both a lot of fantasy and literary works (and political, post-colonial ones at that), I can say that Mieville bringing in his own views on things is fine and doesn't bother me much at all, because it's a loving novel and what an author brings to a novel (one who can write, anyway, opposed to Ayn Rand) isn't going to annoy or irritate me if done well. P much I don't always read books for strong characters, sorry writing classes, I'm sorry. If I had to care about the people in books, I'd have stopped reading long ago.
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Feb 11, 2010 07:31
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Che Delilas posted:I've had Perdido Street Station sitting on my shelf for months and just never got around to it until now. It sounds like it may not be your thing, but then again, I guess I don't understand folks that don't like things in novels that they personally don't agree with. It's a novel, people are supposed to be imperfect and bad things will happen (in good novels anyway). It does get better plot wise, but the rest of the stuff you have trouble with stays too. As for the thesaurus thing, yeah, I think it's a bit much, but I love words, so.
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Apr 11, 2010 19:37
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That's because Judah Low loving owns (in a flawed protagonist sort of way). Too bad it takes a whole book and lesser characters to see why.
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Apr 12, 2010 08:30
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Ratios and Tendency posted:I was seriously disappointed by pss. The 'amazing setting' was just some guy riffing on planescape and the writing and plot just struck me as amateurish and bad. While I will agree that I got a major Planescape vibe the first time I even opened the book, I also got a major Oddworld/steampunk/Star Wars vibe too, so, it's not like it's any one source. That, and he has stated that he loves the Monster Manuals / bestiaries, so yeah, it's part of his worldbuilding. The prose itself is far from amateurish and the plotting for PSS is slow, but hardly bad. As someone that's probably read DnD books before, I can't believe you say that seriously. quote:Iron Council:In PSS, Derkhan mentions hearing about a woman being Remade with her baby's arms grafted to her forehead. This turns out to be who is under Toro's helmet in IC. Holy gently caress. I think that's one of the hooks he wrote in and was like 'that sounds like an interesting character, I wonder where I could go with that.' Also, Iron Council's main character doesn't show up until 100 pages in or so, so that might throw people off quite a bit.
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Apr 26, 2010 08:48
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Planescape is the specific setting for DnD where the planes meet or are explored, and the art style and creatures created for it are echoed quite a bit by what shows up in PSS, that's all.
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Apr 26, 2010 20:57
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Hedrigall posted:I love the title Embassytown, it's so evocative. I can picture it now: some huge spaceport full of the embassies of every alien race. It feels like it could be another murder mystery, only this time in a space opera setting. I hope it's a big chunky 800 page epic, or the first part of a trilogy, or something. Mainly because I want him to have written a lot of space opera. So Babylon 5, really.
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May 21, 2010 03:13
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Grand Prize Winner posted:By the way, have any of you read Joe Abercrombie's books? Their styles are like polar opposites but I love 'em both. Ugh, I can't stand the neckbeard circle-jerkery over Abercrombie. His style is of the 'I don't actually write prose, but here's some craaaazy poo poo I thought of that no one else ever has about the fantasy genre, here you go!' school. Wish more people would go for the 'I'm entirely too wordy for my own good and am going to employ my themes as densely and college paper-y as possible' Mieville style. 
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Jun 4, 2010 01:43
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It may mean something, but it doesn't make me want to slap the academic dissertation-giving nonce right the gently caress out of him (at times) any less.
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Jun 10, 2010 00:06
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Yeah, structurally, it felt weird at the time, and even though Judah comes off as you say, I still enjoyed it for what it was. Essentially a novella of backstory with its own little twists and turns. Then again, IC is still my favorite thus far, since there's something new or happening/changing every few pages. So, your complaint is valid, but its also just how China is--full of ideas and 10-dollar words and wanting to get them out in any way possible.
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Jun 19, 2010 09:17
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Saerdna posted:imagine the books about elf rape we could have if it wasn't for the nerds. There was elf rape as backstory in Dragonlance
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Jun 30, 2010 19:23
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Neurosis posted:I've just started reading both Perdido Street Station and The City & The City. The latter seems much better written, even if the beginning is a little dry. But, my God, does Perdido's prose get more tolerable? Oh hey, it's you from that other thread. China is awesome because he loves playing around with language, and each of his books are different in their own ways, for better or worse. Sometimes he goes overboard or too academic wankerish, but it beats most of the poo poo out there. Except King Rat. That was p amateur.
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Jul 21, 2010 05:14
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Marge. Yeah, I finished it up today, and that was a gently caress of a ride. Seemed like he was channeling more of the pretentious wordy style of TC&TC but also the fun and vividness of Iron Council, so it was all good. I always get so worn out about the density of ideas in his books and think 'where will he even go next', but the last 100 pages of the book were pure gold, once everything had been set up. It's the magic trick formula to writing a mystery; introduce the elements, take some away, bring them back later when you're sure the audience has moved on. The last five pages did bug me, though, since it wasn't much of an epilogue. The awkward phrases and pop culture references were both awesome and eye-rolling at the same time. How does he do that? And to the poster that called it bland and derivative, go gently caress yourself. Best Goss and Subby part: making the one guy a puppet yeesh. I do wish he'd gone more into the: Tattoo -> ink connection that was the undercurrent to Gris and Billy and Dane tho Overall, I'd say that his character work has improved, but I think I personally love IC the most. (having only half-finished The Scar, of course)
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Jul 30, 2010 06:50
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Hedrigall posted:Only half-finished? WHAT? I had to read Kraken before it was due at the library. That, and I'm drawing it out because I don't want it to be over.
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Aug 2, 2010 04:32
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Oh you have no idea.
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Aug 11, 2010 03:17
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^^^^ Which is still better than Neverwhere, when it comes down to it. Thug Lessons: That's a hell of a reading, but still kind of steeped in Freshman PoliSci. Then again, that's kind of what Mieville inserts into his novels, so I can't blame him. On the opposite tip, he's conscious of how much collectivism gets hosed over by the man, but he has no sentiment about it, or sympathy to one side or the other. Runagate Rampant still exists, but almost nobody gives a gently caress about it. The Underclasses save New Crobuzon, but they get monumentally hosed up because of it. The government is opressive. Even in IC, when the workers seize the means of production, nothing actually comes of it because there's nothing they can do on a larger scale, and those with power and capital come down on them hard as they can. I think Mieville's themes are more like dissent is important, and labour needs to be treated as equally as creative or scientific endeavor, but any sort of forceful uprising is always going to be essentially useless and stomped out hard. So, having characters that recognize the importance of individuals vs collective is alright, but anyone that acts in anything more than a small group is only bringing about more upset for little change.
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Aug 12, 2010 23:58
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Mrs. Badcrumble posted:Er, I think his whole point, especially in Iron Council, is that uprisings and resistance are important and 'useful' even if they do not succeed in overthrowing the entire world power structure. He is precisely sympathetic with the revolutionaries in his books even if he doesn't portray them as perfect Mary Sues. So maybe 'useless' was a poor choice, but it looks like we agree for the most part. I just didn't cotton to the 'capitalism is the source of all woes/individualism is Isaac's flaw' reading. Now that I think about, Judah Low almost fits that position better, but the events of IC don't have that tone to them, either.
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Aug 15, 2010 06:56
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I wouldn't have read all of his novels if I disagreed with his personal politics. If anything, his work seems to be a bit more nuanced than a straight-forward Capital v Proletariat reading, or dare I say, less focused than some might see it as. PSS is more adventure/horror than it is political commentary. IC develops those ideas quite a bit more, of course. I just think of giving him credit for not completely having characters and events definitely go one way or another, like other authors might do ~*Goodkind*~
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Aug 18, 2010 11:17
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That, and the style is different enough that when coupled with the first 60 pages of setup, it can be off-putting. But then Goss and Subby show up.
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Aug 31, 2010 21:03
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Nah don't worry, I didn't like TC & TC that much, either. It was like he thought 'Chandler + Kafka + unwieldy academia, what a great combination that surely won't be stilted as hell!' and went to town. The idea was okay, the execution wasn't.
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Sep 2, 2010 21:26
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Captain_Indigo posted:I always pictured him looking like The Bunk. Except that no one can resist The Bunk, so Isaac ain't like him. And how burnt of wood are we talking, here? Charcoal black, or does it have the white/grey ash on it, or is like toasted nut brown or what! ?! Dear The Scar: One of these days I'll stop cycling library books to get around to reading the rest of you. Kraken just wore me out ok.
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Sep 26, 2010 10:34
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Fuckin' A, half-birthday present here I come!
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Nov 13, 2010 08:14
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Yeah, they're hit and miss, I like they're going for a unifying style, but even his work isn't that unified, so... Also, Vetruvian man for IC? WTF?
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Feb 24, 2011 03:04
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Hedrigall posted:oh gently caress cover talk, here's what i got in the mail today because i am a loving legend Godspit Jabber and gently caress, you filthy Aussie (i think?!).
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Mar 3, 2011 05:01
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withak posted:I think the London School of Economics gives away PhDs to any fantasy author who wanders up to their door. Yeah, p much. Also, while I love his pretentious-as-poo poo prose stylings when he writes fiction, I absolutely cannot stand it when he throws it in his blog. loving write like a normal person that hasn't been living in sheltered academia for the last decade, son.
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Mar 7, 2011 05:51
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Yeah, I get to wait until then for a crappy US cover, even though I live in  and we get UK books all the time; amazon et al won't stock other publisher copies sometimes and it's p random which ones.
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May 6, 2011 17:52
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Sexpansion posted:Why do this when Bas-Lag is basically just a hodgepodge of Dark Sun and several other generic D&D settings? Because campaign settings are always something new and nifty to add to a game. I bought many books in my youth just for the flavour / rulesets of a novel setting. Also I picture it way more a Planescape inspired thing than anything.
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Jul 17, 2011 07:46
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As far as storytelling goes, the first 100 pages of IC are pretty much window dressing, and if you like worldbuilding that is a pretty awesome thing. Yes, Cutter is useless. He's a vehicle to get us to the point of the story that is interesting. The point 100 pages in. I didn't mind that on the first read through, but I probably will on the second. I didn't care that he was gay, I didn't care about him and his party much at all. They're just an RPG group rolling towards and inciting event. Normally in fantasy (and genre fiction), I have trouble considering characters anything other than vehicles; sometimes they become people, but most of the time they are ideas and and counterweights to the world around them, so IC was a pretty great book for me. The ideas worked, the failures worked, and the journey was neat on a literal and figurative level. The Scar is similar in many ways, but the prose is more accessible and it is almost a straightforward narrative, which is cool, but Uther and The Lovers (I have 50 pages to go, so I this might be wrong) don't really have any other reason to be themselves other than 'this is a great idea China had'. Also, fwiw The Scar moves at a dreadfully slow pace, despite some good worldbuilding and setpieces.
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Oct 26, 2011 20:14
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Yeah, there was an interview somewhere where he was asked about plotting and he was like 'oh yeah, I just have a wall of flowcharts, I really get into it,' and I was like 'no you don't.' Actually, it seems like he might do that every other book. He might chart out all the ideas and backstory, but in narrative terms, the plot itself will fall under itself half the time. Which, I mean, PSS is the most egregious of those I think, but most of the time the book itself is so good that something like that can almost be given a pass. Almost.
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Nov 10, 2011 19:35
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