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TapTheForwardAssist
Apr 9, 2007

he's the one who gives his body/
as a weapon of the war/
and without him all this killing can't go on


I don't think we've had a bullpup thread in a while, and I've recently discoverd AR15.com's bullpup subforum, so thought I'd bring the issue up again.

My vague impression of TFR bullpup issues is:
-most esteemed TFRers hate them
-someone grabbed their FN2000 to go drop some tangos and broke his charging handle
-a couple goons have Dixie 10/22 bullpups and are soundly mocked whenever they post them.


In any event, I've long wanted a bullpup, and am highly inclined to look into a classic AUG clone once I get out of school and back into a job. The MSARs run as low as $1500, and appear to have gotten through the teething phase, and the GenIV models have various changes based on customer opinions. I believe the IVs take both MSAR mags and original AUG mags, both of which are supposedly better than AR mags.

I could dig something like this, with maybe some cool stenciled artwork on the stock, since it seems a shame to waste that huge canvas. I do like the look of the trad "donut of death" optic, and it's felt good when I've fondled it in shops.




So while I'm here, thought I'd post some more bullpup coolness.

Great image of the compactness compared to a suppressed Krinkov:




Check out what one American ARFer's got. How'd he do that?




The only EBRs, at this moment, that are more interesting to me than the AUGishes are the Magpul PDR (contrary to rumor, they're still mucking around with it), and the possibility of a .223 Kel-Tec RFB. KT is, supposedly, finally shipping the first .308 RFBs in December.

The .308 RFB is basically a bullpup FAL, but dig the footprint:



I'm not that keen on a .308, despite the compactness, and being a svelte 8.5lbs. Luckily, KT has said they're looking into a .223 version (with options to convert to 6.8, 7.62x39mm, etc). No pics yet, but here's what their 1990s PDW prototype looked like :3.

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HotCanadianChick
Oct 3, 2002


I AM AGGRESSIVELY SHITTING UP EVERY THREAD. MY CAR / SYNTH / CAT IS THE FUCKING BEST AND YOURS IS COMPLETE CRAP. MY OPINION IS THE ONLY OPINION YOU FUCKING IGNORANT POOR


AUGs rule, gently caress the haters

Dr. Video Games 0126
Sep 12, 2001
hercules of hate

real AUGs are cool.

dudes were breaking MSARs on release which was enough to make me not want one, "revisions" or not

they started deleting threads on arfcom when they initially came out due to all the complaints.

in addition, my buddy had a TPD-USA AUG he let me borrow to try out.

when i was on R&R in april i tried shooting a mag through it at pasadena gun center, had multiple failures to feed to the point where i couldn't get off more than maybe 2 rounds at a time before the gun choked and i was applying remedial action. it was a total nightmare, which sucked as i wanted to buy a STANAG AUG.

hopefully steyr will release their own AUG soon as both copies are terrible.

if you want something handy, get a folding stock AK (i have a sidefolding AK with a CTR stock) or build a SBR.

with the PDR a pipe dream and the Masada being retooled as a possible M4 replacement for the military, that only really leaves the Sig 556 and the SCAR-L as the real contenders for anything really new.

Dr. Video Games 0126 fucked around with this message at Dec 5, 2008 around 03:20

gimpsuitjones
Mar 27, 2007

What are you lookin at...

AUGs suck, everyone I know in the NZ Army hates them


you all played too much counterstrike

Delta-Wye
Sep 29, 2005

Represent!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01ilwvD-mnE

For some reason I am strangely attracted to this 10/22 plastic contraption.

lDDQD
Apr 16, 2006


gimpsuitjones posted:

AUGs suck, everyone I know in the NZ Army hates them


you all played too much counterstrike

They suck in counterstrike too.

TapTheForwardAssist
Apr 9, 2007

he's the one who gives his body/
as a weapon of the war/
and without him all this killing can't go on


Dr. Video Games 0126 posted:

with the PDR a pipe dream and the Masada being retooled as a possible M4 replacement for the military, that only really leaves the Sig 556 and the SCAR-L as the real contenders for anything really new.

XCR seems to be doing okay, and they're working to expand the cartridge interchangeability. Are they still working on a Heavy version?



The XCR is cool, kinda like an improved Daewoo rifle, but I really want something uber-short.

quote:

AUGs suck, everyone I know in the NZ Army hates them

Which goon is it who's an Aussie soldier, or ROTC-equivalent or whatever?

Do we have any Irish soldiers in TFR?

Vorlonesque
Sep 17, 2005

Killing planets since 1876

I figured I should probably post a pic of my ugly evil bullpup (now with a green laser!) along with my brand new CZ82 (which I really need to post a box thread for). The bullpup is nice...custom built by a gunsmith with a Maadi...it has an 8 pound trigger pull (which for an AK bullpup is really good) and seems to be pretty accurate for an AK (at 50-75 yards a guy who can actually hit poo poo managed to make a maybe smaller than an inch hole with it on the bullseye...and said that the trigger was throwing him off a bit (which was hilarious because he was basically hitting the thing pretty well).



Edit: Oh and I agree that XCRs are badass...I'd love to have one. And they always reminded me of the Daewoo rifle as well. Basically they seem to be the best of both the AK and AR mated together with some FN FAL for good measure. I'd love to have one in 6.8SPC, and later I'd get 5.56 and 7.62x39 kits for it.

Vorlonesque fucked around with this message at Dec 5, 2008 around 03:56

Fifty Three
Oct 29, 2007



TapTheForwardAssist posted:

the Magpul PDR (contrary to rumor, they're still mucking around with it)
I demand proof. Don't play games with my heart.

TapTheForwardAssist
Apr 9, 2007

he's the one who gives his body/
as a weapon of the war/
and without him all this killing can't go on


Fifty Three posted:

I demand proof. Don't play games with my heart.

Fine, don't believe me, believe Magpul:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.ht...&f=124&t=161063




It looks iffy, but then again nobody ever believed that the XCR, the SiG556, or the KT RFB would ever make it to market. Nor the AUG, and we got two clones on the shelf and a Steyr/Sabre collaboration supposedly coming out soon, so anything is possible.

Hell, the USMC is fielding the loving Osprey in Iraq, so I'm willing to believe anything now.

Vorlonesque
Sep 17, 2005

Killing planets since 1876

TapTheForwardAssist posted:

Fine, don't believe me, believe Magpul:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.ht...&f=124&t=161063




It looks iffy, but then again nobody ever believed that the XCR, the SiG556, or the KT RFB would ever make it to market. Nor the AUG, and we got two clones on the shelf and a Steyr/Sabre collaboration supposedly coming out soon, so anything is possible.

Hell, the USMC is fielding the loving Osprey in Iraq, so I'm willing to believe anything now.

Ok...that is quite possibly the single most awesome gun based on a line drawing ever! Well maybe not ever...but I loving want one dammit! (yeah apparently if that ever comes out I'll have two bullpups in my collection)

Edit: Also, is it supposed to be available in 6.8SPC at some point or just 5.56 (or something altogether different...is it a rifle or more an SMG kinda dealy in a pistol caliber?)

TapTheForwardAssist
Apr 9, 2007

he's the one who gives his body/
as a weapon of the war/
and without him all this killing can't go on


Vorlonesque posted:

Ok...that is quite possibly the single most awesome gun based on a line drawing ever!

They have a prototype made!!!


Click here for the full 1023x768 image.


Cast in soft plastic, you can see the glue where they patched it together when it broke in transit.

Sgt. Shaved Balls
Sep 6, 2006

UNBEARABLE AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

^^^^^^^

the prototype was damaged in transport so they glued it together



Craptacular
Jul 11, 2004



Real Steyr AUGs in January: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=22805

I've put a couple mags through a factory FA AUG and I wasn't particularly impressed with it.

^^^^^^^^

Edit: I've got to wonder how they intend for that to work with the magazine so far back but the ejection port so far forward.

TapTheForwardAssist
Apr 9, 2007

he's the one who gives his body/
as a weapon of the war/
and without him all this killing can't go on


We coulda been a half-century ahead of the power-curve if the US hadn't strongarmed the Limeys out of adopting this:




And it's .280 caliber no less. 6.8, beaten like a bitch back when your grandad was still trying to get into your hot granny's skivvies.

Zakalwe
May 12, 2002

Wanted For:
  • Terrorism
  • Kidnapping
  • Poor Taste
  • Unlawful Carnal Gopher Knowledge


TapTheForwardAssist posted:

Do we have any Irish soldiers in TFR?



I've talked to a member of the Defense Forces Shooting Team about the AUG and he was fairly enthusiastic about the weapon. I specifically asked him if what I'd heard about the trigger being made of mush was true and he replied that the trigger on the AUG was perfectly fine.

The Rat
Aug 29, 2004

11B gobble bronies every day


I got to shoot Myrtar's FS2000 last year. It was nice, didn't jam at all, but was a bit bulky and the trigger made it feel like I was lifting weights with my finger.



Edit: This is the FS2000 referenced in the OP, incidentally. I put the new charging handle on for Myrtar.

dw33b
Apr 9, 2001

If you deny yourself a useful tool simply because it reminds you uncomfortably of your mortality, you have uselessly and pointlessly crippled yourself.

I'm going to buy a maglocked version of the MagPul PDW and I'm going to airbrush Seburo on it because goddamnit that's what it is!

sky shark
Jun 9, 2004
WALKING ARGUMENT FOR GUN CONTROL

I masturbate to Matthew Bracken books and long to kill black people. Also I leave guns laying around for criminals to steal.

gently caress the AUG, gently caress the MSAR, gently caress keltec, gently caress frankenAK, gently caress L85s. I like my FS2000 because I'm a lefty and it shoots well, but after Myrtar hosed up his charging handle there's no way I'm relying on it if I have to "go loud", plus it handles like a brick, needs custom work if I'm going to suppress it and doesn't like fully loaded mags. The Magpul looks interesting, but until it's out and working I'm not holding my breath.

Bullpups need work.

WimpBastard
Feb 11, 2006

"sorry about my dick"

I was in the ADF, I didn't think the AUG was as horrible as everyone said. I think a lot of people just heard an NCO say it so they'd just parrot what they said. I got discharged in basic for medical reasons so it's not like I ever used them on operations or anything.

I wouldn't say it was the greatest thing ever either though. I didn't have any failures with live ammo, but we had to clean them obsessively. I had some failures when we were using blanks. I do recall being told that slamming the magazine in may cause a round to unseat which I thought was pretty dodgy.

Having to take the barrel off to clear it was annoying as hell though. I can't compare it to an AR though since I've never handled one (an AR). Hopefully that will be rectified in January.

mad.radhu
Jan 8, 2006

cram potential


Bullpups:

Myrtar's FS2000 is the one that had the charging handle break.

The Magpul PDR is purely an aesthetic design, it's something they designed to look neat but it doesn't have any internals.

the Kel-tec .308 bullpup is absolutely horrifying, anyone who drops $3k on a plastic .308 with a 6000 round service life to put next to their face when they fire it needs their head examined.

Other bullpups are pretty terrible

standard rifle design supremacy, peace out

mad.radhu fucked around with this message at Dec 5, 2008 around 04:45

Slim Pickens
Jan 12, 2007

P.P.D.S.P.E.M.F.O.B.B.T.

The bitching about the Steyr AUG are probably along the same lines as the M4. People bitch about the M4 not being reliable or having no stopping power, but the only time I've had it jam was with lovely mags or blanks, and it kills people just fine with only a shot or two.

i saw an FS2000 in a gun shop a while ago. I was really considering buying it despite how weird it was to me, but when I went in to check it out a second time, they sold it.

Slim Pickens fucked around with this message at Dec 5, 2008 around 04:47

Gtab
Dec 9, 2003
I am a horrible person, disregard my posts.

The AUG sucks. All current US-made AUGs also suck. Its trigger is an abomination and fixing failures is a goddamn travesty. I have two Aussie friends here -- one is living in my house/dating my sister, and one is a very good friend. The latter was in the Australian forces for 10 years (and then did security work in Africa) and he fought in Timor (and took a bullet in the process). He is not a fan of the AUG either, and I am inclined to trust him even past my own experience with firing semi AUGs.

The FS2000 is hugely bulky, fixes nothing of the numerous bullpup failings (lovely prone, bad trigger) and its "improvement" to clearing failures is... dodgy. Plus, mags don't drop free unless you remove a skirt -- the same skirt keeping the gun clean and functional, and they don't go in without a fight unless you download the mags to 28 rounds. At least it is SERIOUSLY ambi, which is a plus. It shot accurately if you could do the trigger smoothly and it wouldn't jam even when Myrtar TRIED to make it jam, so that's a big plus.

The PDR does not exist. It has never existed. No working prototype has been made. They had no plans at SHOT 08 to make one unless direct mil or LE contracts became readily available and interest was pushed in their direction; maybe they got that over the course of 2008 and have since made one, who knows. But as of this moment it doesn't exist. Don't count on it ever existing.

The SA80/L85 is a goddamn horrible weapon. As it is always said, when you send your gun to HK and they hand it back still mostly broken and say, "This is the best we can do," your rifle is a hosed up turd.

The Kel-Tec RFB is a .308 bullpup rifle made by people famous for making iffy .32ACP pistols with an operational life of 5000-6000 rounds. That is not barrel life. That is "safe weapon life." No, I am not kidding. gently caress that noise so hard.

Bullpup AKs: really? Reeeeally?

Bullpup M14s are loving awwwwwful. I got to play with two models at SHOT and reloading was a loving stinkyhole and the trigger borderlined on, "Nevermind that just hit the primer with a hammer instead." You've got to be kidding if you think these are in any way a worthwhile purchase for any purpose -- they're not even FUN.

The Tavor is OK but nothing special; I like it better than some of these godforsaken bullpups but I would not bother owning one. They suffer from all the basic setbacks of the bullpup system and fix none of them. loving pass.

I haven't fired one of the new Chinese bullpups (Type 97s) coming into Canada yet but they are A) Chinese B) nothing inspiring C) looking to have all the same bugs and twice the cost-saving measures D) ALL OF THE ABOVE



In summary: gently caress bullpups.

Skyssx
Feb 2, 2001

by T. Fine


I've got a neato bullpup design floating around in my head. I'm a lefty, so don't worry about that. Right now, it would make Rube Goldberg proud.

mad.radhu
Jan 8, 2006

cram potential


Slim Pickens posted:

The bitching about the Steyr AUG are probably along the same lines as the M4. People bitch about the M4 not being reliable or having no stopping power, but the only time I've had it jam was with lovely mags or blanks, and it kills people just fine with only a shot or two.

i saw an FS2000 in a gun shop a while ago. I was really considering buying it despite how weird it was to me, but when I went in to check it out a second time, they sold it.

Does your M4 melt when exposed to bug spray

stangman
Mar 13, 2003



mad.radhu posted:

Bullpups:


the Kel-tec .308 bullpup is absolutely horrifying, anyone who drops $3k on a plastic .308 with a 6000 round service life to put next to their face when they fire it needs their head examined.
I came here to post the same thing, and I generally like kel-tecs even.

I want an 86s though, since I'm a retard for anything with an AK action.

El Jorge
Feb 26, 2006

A spiritus dominatus,
Domine, libra nos,
From the lighting and the tempest,
Our Emperor, deliver us.


A morte perpetua,
Domine, libra nos.


I'd be frightened to shoot an RFB for any significant number of rounds.

Slim Pickens
Jan 12, 2007

P.P.D.S.P.E.M.F.O.B.B.T.

mad.radhu posted:

Does your M4 melt when exposed to bug spray

I've never even heard of that before, but no. My butt stock and rail guards aren't stock, though.

edit: I also only used Off!, never the issue poo poo.

Slim Pickens fucked around with this message at Dec 5, 2008 around 05:00

WimpBastard
Feb 11, 2006

"sorry about my dick"

mad.radhu posted:

Does your M4 melt when exposed to bug spray

It makes the rifle really slippery and you can't hold onto it because the plastic on the surface has liquified. The insect repellent we were issued was some pretty crazy stuff. I regretted putting some of it on my face, but the flies in Australia are horrible.

The AUG works, but I've never fired an AR so I have nothing to compare it to. That's really about all I can say.

MrButterpants
Jul 20, 2002

One of a small handful of posters on TFR that really, really know their shit when it comes to long range target rifles. -Cyrano4747


hope you're not left handed

gimpsuitjones
Mar 27, 2007

What are you lookin at...

the guys I know who bitch about the AUG have used it, the M16 and the SLR (FAL for you yanks) in the service and say that it's a piece of poo poo compared to the other 2.

kotau
Mar 21, 2003

Whatever is not forbidden is compulsory.


The Steyr sure does look striking and a novel idea and what not, but when I look at the trigger group I cannot help but feel


Anyone care to describe what pulling that trigger feels like?

edit:the Steyr, that is.

TheReverend
Jun 21, 2005



I'm a huge AUG fan I just think it needs some trigger work and a selector instead of a two position trigger.

I'll probably pick one up at some point assuming they are still legal.

I've never seen an AK bullpup I liked though.

I also like FS2000s but not as much as a AUG

DJExile
Jun 27, 2007

Ha ha! Pain is hilarious!


gently caress THE HATERS



This is still the most fun gun I have ever shot and if a high-cap magazine was ever made (doubtful ), I would probably never stop shooting it. I got 4 extra mags for $20 total. I have never had a failure in at least 3000 rounds, and it is a lot more accurate than I figured it would be.

EDIT: and you can reverse the action to be on the left side so you demon-spawn southpaws can use it.

DJExile fucked around with this message at Dec 5, 2008 around 05:19

incredibull
Sep 7, 2008

GENERIC

I paid someone money for this.

edit: ^^^ I guess we're in the same boat. It's a great gun to just shoot, but besides that, I've never really figured out what it's for. I had to polish the feed ramp and remove the mag safety and last round catch before it ever fired reliably. And since I'm on the west coast and too close to CA apparently, I didn't even get the threaded barrel.


DJExile
Jun 27, 2007

Ha ha! Pain is hilarious!


incredibull posted:

I paid someone money for this.

gently caress yes How do you like it?

incredibull
Sep 7, 2008

GENERIC

DJExile posted:

gently caress yes How do you like it?

I would like it a lot more if I could find a good, reliable reflex sight of some kind for less than $100. I tried a cheap red dots but couldn't find one that kept zero after getting smacked a few times. I hate the irons, and I lost the front post.

Also high cap mags. This gun is pretty much crying for it, so what up Walther?

Gtab
Dec 9, 2003
I am a horrible person, disregard my posts.

kotau posted:

The Steyr sure does look striking and a novel idea and what not, but when I look at the trigger group I cannot help but feel


Anyone care to describe what pulling that trigger feels like?

edit:the Steyr, that is.

The AUG trigger is like 12 goddamn pounds or some ridiculous poo poo. It's seriously awful and gritty the whole way back. I've only fired the semi-version, though. The break is terrible too.

Sgt. Shaved Balls
Sep 6, 2006

UNBEARABLE AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

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TapTheForwardAssist
Apr 9, 2007

he's the one who gives his body/
as a weapon of the war/
and without him all this killing can't go on


mad.radhu posted:

the Kel-tec .308 bullpup is absolutely horrifying, anyone who drops $3k on a plastic .308 with a 6000 round service life to put next to their face when they fire it needs their head examined.

Where are you getting 6K for the RFB? I've heard that number tossed about for the SU-16 rifle (not sure where it originated), but the RFB is a completely different thing. It's pretty much a FAL with some weird furniture, right?

Plus the anticipated MSRP is $2000, meaning street price (after initial gottahavit subsides) should be around $1400. $3K is really a stretch, although I grant they were citing some much higher figure for the long-barrel Match version.

quote:

I haven't fired one of the new Chinese bullpups (Type 97s) coming into Canada yet but they are A) Chinese B) nothing inspiring C) looking to have all the same bugs and twice the cost-saving measures D) ALL OF THE ABOVE

Those Chinamen build a pretty good 1911 though. One would hope they'd build mil-issue gear better than their Rem870 violations.



The safety absolutely baffles me though. Are you supposed to manipulate it with your earlobe? Or is it part of some Soviet-esque doctrine where the safety has nothing to do with the individual rifleman's personal safety, and you either fumble with it right before a shot, or turn it off-safe once you hear shooting in the distance and just keep your finger straight?


quote:

Bullpup AKs: really? Reeeeally?

Valmet M82. But I'm sure a Cannuck civvie knows way more about guns than Finland. :finland: How many wars did you fight against the Russians again? I seem to have forgotten.

TapTheForwardAssist fucked around with this message at Dec 5, 2008 around 05:50

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