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Oligopsony posted:what's wrong with this Because he's using that arguement to say that Bards can't be considered a class by those who "defend" 4E against people like that "BUT MY BARD !!1!" guy from earlier in this thread.
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| # ? Mar 23, 2009 02:40 |
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| # ? May 24, 2013 21:54 |
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Why is bard such a point of contention for a lot of people? Is it because bards have been seen the least power gamey base class since they were extremely weak in the past or what?
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| # ? Mar 23, 2009 03:48 |
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RagnarokAngel posted:Why is bard such a point of contention for a lot of people? Is it because bards have been seen the least power gamey base class since they were extremely weak in the past or what? I thought bards were completely lame in every edition I had seen them in up until now. My guess is that they keep bringing them up because they can't make any other cogent arguments against 4E anymore.
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| # ? Mar 23, 2009 03:54 |
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ManMythLegend posted:Because he's using that arguement to say that Bards can't be considered a class by those who "defend" 4E against people like that "BUT MY BARD !!1!" guy from earlier in this thread. ah okay i just saw him saying "i'm not going to allow anythign not in phbi because I'm not going to overburden myself with system knowledge" which seems eminently reasonable
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| # ? Mar 23, 2009 04:01 |
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Oligopsony posted:ah okay I think putting new material in new PHBs makes it a lot more reasonable for players and DMs as opposed to stuffing 1-3 new classes in random splatbooks, but I can see the "PHB 1" only view.
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| # ? Mar 23, 2009 12:38 |
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What he's saying kind of makes sense but he's putting it in the most dramatic wording possible which makes him sound like a douche. You can sum that poo poo up into: "I haven't read the PHB2 yet, so I'm not letting those characters in my games for now. Once I do read it, I will."
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| # ? Mar 23, 2009 14:03 |
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ManMythLegend posted:I don't quite get when this "What is or isn't D&D" argument started up in the first place- I guess it's something the kids started. How is this a grognards.txt post? Well, sure, it has the whole "LOOK AT HOW OLD I AM" attitude, but the guy's views are basically the opposite of everything that makes the other posts in this thread horrible. All he's saying is "stop arguing about the right way to do something that is supposed to be a freeform way to have fun".
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| # ? Mar 23, 2009 14:23 |
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Guildenstern posted:How is this a grognards.txt post? Well, sure, it has the whole "LOOK AT HOW OLD I AM" attitude, but the guy's views are basically the opposite of everything that makes the other posts in this thread horrible. All he's saying is "stop arguing about the right way to do something that is supposed to be a freeform way to have fun". It's another case of "Not incorrect but totally douchey way of saying it". He might enjoy the free form version where it's essentially just charades with little rules and that's OK if it's what you like. He acts like wanting more structure is bad. Personally I want some structure and balance.
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| # ? Mar 23, 2009 14:47 |
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/\/\/\/\/\ Edit: You beat me to the punch.Guildenstern posted:How is this a grognards.txt post? Well, sure, it has the whole "LOOK AT HOW OLD I AM" attitude, but the guy's views are basically the opposite of everything that makes the other posts in this thread horrible. All he's saying is "stop arguing about the right way to do something that is supposed to be a freeform way to have fun". If he had just said that I wouldn't have clipped it. I clipped it because he sums up pretty well what I like least about gamers. I mean come on, Jedi and X-Men because they're kewl? Jesus. I don't care if that's what he and his group find fun, more power to them. This just smacks of the kind of guy who brags about how awesome his level 20 character is despite the fact that 90% of houseruled, and then doesn't understand why no one gives a poo poo. You can't tell me with a straight face that if he rolled up to your D&D group with a character sheet for a home brewed Darth Vader you wouldn't roll your eyes. He could have just said, "Stop arguing. No system is perfect and I've been house ruling things to my group's taste since I started. Don't begrudge one group because they like different things." Instead he rolls into a thread, says, "Playing X-Men vs Star Trek is the one true way, don't be close minded.  " and than rolls out. No one gives a poo poo.tldr: I don't like people that are smug about their nerdiness. tldr 2: Being smug about one's nerdiness is what started this whole retarded 3.5 vs 4E thing anyway. ManMythLegend fucked around with this message at Mar 23, 2009 around 15:00 |
| # ? Mar 23, 2009 14:47 |
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There are too many posts in this thread to pick just one. Actually, maybe I can. Here's my favourite: Dear Anima I am on bent knee. Please listen to my plea! I ask. No! I beg you please do not become like the corporate slut 4e. Please do not force us to make characters based only on what meta classes are needed not what you players want to play. Oh sweet one do not become slutty a miniature combat game with a facade of a true RPG. Please Anima remain the Audrey Hepburn of fantasy games and not like Britney Spears.
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| # ? Mar 23, 2009 23:41 |
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btw Anima is even more anime than Exalted
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| # ? Mar 23, 2009 23:43 |
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Sorry, but after reading darren maclennan's review of "wraethu", in which he attacks overweight people and commits the crimes of hate speech and incitement to violence against them, I can't be dispassionate towards that place. BTW, here's an excerpt from maclennan's review of wraethu, which would be considered hate speech and incitement to violence if written about any other group. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Actually, the crawling awkwardness starts with the introductory fiction. It’s about an overweight computer nerd with glasses, bad skin, and bad hair – and everybody picks on him! There’s even a pair of pictures with him looking all sad. Aww. -INSERT PICTURE HERE- (Here, there'd be a picture of this really pathetic-looking fat guy with glasses, long hair, and an "I abuse Linux" T-shirt. He's got a really sad face, which you will desperately want to grind your fist into so hard that pieces of his cheekbones will lodge in your knuckles. When we put up the review on our web site, we'll put up the picture then.) Gandhi would have kicked this kid’s rear end. It would be a sudden, spontaneous outbreak of violence, like a prairie wildfire. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm overweight, and consider the above, by a mod on rpg.net, to be hate speech and incitement to violence against me and people like me, so it's not really feasible for me not to hate that site. Sorry if that offends anyone, but to me the place is disgusting, and I only post reviews there to help games I like, like CT. If you want to try seeing how I feel, imagine maclennan's tirade had been written against some group you're a member of. Asking me to not hate that site would be like asking some people not to hate a site that had david dukkke as a mod. Like I say, I'll post reviews there to help games like CT, but I'll have to hold my nose while doing it.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2009 00:13 |
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Mikan posted:btw Anima is even more spergy than AD&D2 That game loves d100 tables like its spanish creators love japan
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| # ? Mar 24, 2009 00:41 |
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clockworkjoe posted:
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| # ? Mar 24, 2009 00:46 |
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I think I genuinely hate Old Geezer. I know it's silly, but I do. . Dear OD&D... Don't ever change. You're still the only one for me, baby. Don't you get it, even after 35 years? I love you BECAUSE you don't spell everything out explicitly. I love you BECAUSE you expected me to figure out what tactics were and were not, and how to use them. I love you BECAUSE of all the space you leave us to build our games in. I love you BECAUSE your Undead drain levels that don't come back, BECAUSE poison kills, BECAUSE lightning bolts reflect off walls and smack you in the face. You're mine forever, and I'll never stop loving you.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2009 00:51 |
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Father Wendigo posted:You can not post that poo poo and then not post a link. I think I have to create an account now. http://cthulhutech.10.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=1622
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| # ? Mar 24, 2009 01:04 |
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Mikan posted:btw Anima is even more anime than Exalted Um I'll have you know that Exalted is inspired by Greek Myth and the saga of Gilgamesh and has nothing at all to do with anime. 
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| # ? Mar 24, 2009 08:53 |
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The professional DM has an apprentice: OBSERVATION AND BEHAVIOR QUEUES Preparation and organization are but one of the many mask a GM must wear during an RPG session, sometimes things wont go as expected, for example: the encounter one was so excited to run just doesn't ring right to the players and they become bored, what would one do?. Improvising and keeping the game fun is as fundamental to GMing as bringing your props to the table, its important to train your observation skills to perceive how people respond to a particular stimuli, in a way you "calibrate" to your players behavior. For instance, lets say one player is really excited (he is blushed, speaking loudly, moving a lot, and having good emotional responses overall) during a fight against a group of orcs, he starts manifesting this behavior when he shoots a fireball and deal a massive amount of damage. If he´s bored during an encounter with say... a fire elemental (lets say that its invulnerable to fire), you could come up with a way to evoke that emotion from him, let him roll an easy perception check "just above the rambling living flame he hangs a huge chandelier by a tight rope... fire could probably burn the rope"... he blushes and shouts loudly when the chandelier falls on the elemental damaging it, bang, you have the player excited when otherwise he would be bored to tears. Be on the lookout for: - Behaviors common to the person when he/she is really excited - What actions trigger such behaviors - Behaviors that denote boredom - What moments trigger such behaviors Also, read the little details, if someone plumps all his point on an attack skill he is telling you he wants combat, if a person plays a priest of his favorite deity and spends point on diplomacy built a scene around him preaching in a church. Listen to what they say: "careful this NPC could betray us" is like telling you "hey I think your party is full on intrigue", "oh man, not this guys again" -while making an expression of disgust- that probably means the player doesnt like that NPC, allow him to defeat it at some point. Challenges: - training to spot this kind of behaviors while roleplaying is hard and requires lots of practice. - One could misjudge a behavior or link it to a different triggering stimuli. Benefits: - The person feels like you are paying attention to what they like, and they feel more in rapport with you and the game.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2009 11:08 |
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Mikan posted:I think I genuinely hate Old Geezer. I know it's silly, but I do. No. Not since I was about 23. Look, kiddo, grab a couple beers, sit down, and let your old Uncle Geezer clue you in on something. If you want, grab yourself a beer too. Most of that stuff is just plain elementary. What isn't elementary is bollocks. Honestly, lad, you sound like somebody who's hung around and played D&D with the same 6 theater major friends since you were in high school. Well, fine. If you're having fun, Crom bless your pointy little hearts. But your "battle cries" were so hackneyed and turgid they made me wince. The idea of a puppet show is laughable. Going to a theater or opera house to watch you do amateur theatrics.... What. The. gently caress? And even your possible good ideas (like "Pictures") ... lad, lad, lad. This is the 21st loving CENTURY. If you DO use a set of pictures, load jpegs onto your laptop and show them that way. If you fumble with pieces of paper at a HOME game for FUN I'll throw Cheetos at you and mock you. It's also my PERSONAL OPINION that theatrics and funny voices have no place in a game, but I'm a bit of a curmudgeon on that. And players who spend more than three seconds in description in combat get told to "Shut the gently caress up and throw the drat dice". But that's just me. And I've never had trouble filling a table in 38 years, so I must be doing SOMETHING right. And there's the heart of it, my boy. GO. PLAY. Run some games, get some experience under your belt. You have enthusiasm, I'll give you that. But, and I say this with all tenderness, you're so wet behind the ears I could berth a 32 foot sloop there. You seem to be suffering from "Echo Chamber" effect. Go out and game with LOTS OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE and see what you think.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2009 11:11 |
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Mikan posted:I think I genuinely hate Old Geezer. I know it's silly, but I do. Dude. Dude. dude. He played with Gary Gygax. Recognize.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2009 12:50 |
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Mikan posted:I think I genuinely hate Old Geezer. I know it's silly, but I do. You're just too wet behind the ears. He's been filling tables for 38 years.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2009 12:52 |
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How the hell can it be a good combat scene without descriptions that exceed 3 seconds.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2009 14:36 |
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Team Black Zion posted:How the hell can it be a good combat scene witho- SHUT UP AND ROLL THE drat DICE, LAD! *slams tankard of ale onto table*
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| # ? Mar 24, 2009 14:41 |
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I'm considering making up a magic item for Senzu Beans. Essentially, you eat a bean and take a 5 minute break. Afterwards, you feel like you got an Extended Rest. You start with 1 Action Point, refreshed Healing Surges, refreshed Dailies. What level magic consumable should that be? I've been scouring Adventurer's Vault and PHB and can't find anything equivalent.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2009 19:11 |
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Mikan posted:I'm considering making up a magic item for Senzu Beans. so I've been homebrewing my own class and while I only got one level planned out theyre gonna have the ability to shoot ki, "power up" their attacks and fly what do you guys think
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| # ? Mar 25, 2009 04:27 |
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RagnarokAngel posted:so I've been homebrewing my own class and while I only got one level planned out theyre gonna have the ability to shoot ki, "power up" their attacks and fly what do you guys think what does the scouter say about his enjoyable human being levels Just a quick note. DBZ is an inherently passion driven and drama filled setting. Using a complex rule system is bound to create not only huge inconsistencies but also detract from the umph of the game. I would look at some rules-lite RPGs for examples to emulate the game. I almost used Mage (oWoD) to run a DBZ game since the magik rules can do anything (which is more of less what the characters do, almost anything). Regarding Ki and Power level. I sugest you look into martial arts to understand the underlying concepts that created the DBZ mythos. Ki is everywhere, it flows into the person and out of the person. Martial artists concentrate on 'integrating' Ki so that it merges with their bodies and augments, heals and alters them. Sayans are an example of someone who starts out with either more initial Ki or who has a 'larger' flow of Ki going through them. That is important. Essentially, I would have about three or four important attributes like this: Passion(willpower and more) use it to activate powers and push personal abilities Ki ability to control the flow and direction of Ki Power the amount of integrated Ki, it is used as the base speed, strength, etc. You probably want to add descriptors so players can add qualities to their character giving them a bonus if an action fits the descriptor (like strong, fast, cheerful, determined, power-hungry, etc.). From this base, I would provide players a number of options at character creation (like sayan heritage) and abilities (energy balls, superspeed, powerup, etc.) and put the whole thing in a point buy system. A similar experience system can be used to buy new abilities or augment the traits (so you can have even more powers, muhaha!). In this way, the setting comes first, the martial arts are primary (through the abilities) and the whole thing is very dramatic since Passion is used to activate powers (just like in the show!) but Ki is the skill the player has in controling it. Certainly, most of the work in this system would be the creation and definition of powers, requirements (like base power, passion, ki levels) and prerequisite powers. (All the work involved in this was why I thought Mage's magic system would simplify it for me in a one shot game.) If you like making lists of cool powers and organizing them, then this should be much easier for you. __________________ Paul R. DuPont Chronic Thinker and RPG Designer Live life as if enchanted! it's over 9000
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| # ? Mar 25, 2009 04:55 |
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clockworkjoe posted:what does the scouter say about his enjoyable human being levels whoa drat son I was making a joke people actually do this?
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| # ? Mar 25, 2009 05:45 |
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Well there is an official DBZ roleplaying game through Fuzion but yes, lots of forums have people sperging out how to best to be super saiyans
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| # ? Mar 25, 2009 05:48 |
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Mikan posted:Well there is an official DBZ roleplaying game through Fuzion but yes, lots of forums have people sperging out how to best to be super saiyans I played it once in a one shot at a con when I was like 13 and it was one of the best RP experiences I had because of the group
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| # ? Mar 25, 2009 06:46 |
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> What makes it not feel like D&D? Here's my $0.02; you may give back change if you like... When I opened the PHB, I was a shocked by the content. The "meat" of most other RPGs that I have ever played seemed to be missing -- there were a whole bunch of colorful "power cards", but where were all the rules? Wanting to examine it in further detail, I bought the 3 book set. "It's good/bad because it's old/new." is a logical fallacy that carries no weight with anybody who knows how to think. From that you'll understand why I'm not going to go into comparisons with other RPGs, other editions, or any of that. Everything must be judged on its own merits; and that's how I judged D&D 4th edition -- on its own merits. I believe the reason D&D 4th edition doesn't "feel like D&D" is that D&D 4th edition doesn't feel like a Role-Playing Game. After reading the PHB and DMG cover to cover, I was left with two questions: 1. Where did all the rules go? 2. Is this how low we've sunk? I'll expand upon the 2nd question first, and come back around for the 1st question. The second question was prompted by this from the Dungeon Master's Guide: "Crossword puzzles include crisscross puzzles, where the goal is to fit all the words from a list into a provided grid of crossing lines, and fully crossed puzzles like you find in most newspapers. A crisscross can hide a message spelled out by shaded squares in the grid, while a fully crossed puzzle is better as an obstacle the characters must solve to get past." -- Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition, Dungeon Master's Guide, p.82 HARKEN YE TO THE CROSSWORD PUZZLE OF DOOM! THOU BRAVE ADVENTURERS MUST SOLVE IT, LEST THE ELDER EVIL GOD WEBSTER AWAKEN FROM HIS SLUMBER AND REMOVE ALL LANGUAGE FROM THE FREE PEOPLES OF Hackensack, New Jersey Sorry, but D&D was never crossword puzzles; not even in the childish games I ran back in grade school where everybody had a magic sword +5, battles between characters happened more frequently than with monsters, and everybody had an astral-plane-rift-free guarantee bag of super-holding to hold all their bags of holding. The only other game I've seen mention of a crossword puzzle was Cyberpunk 2020, and they only wanted you to use the pattern of black and white squares to create "computer dungeon" layouts for hackers. If I wanted to do a crossword puzzle, I probably would have been doing it, instead of reading that paragraph on p.82 of the DMG. So I really must ask: Is this how low we've sunk; the crossword puzzle of doom? D&D it ain't. And, I promised to get back to the 1st question, "Where did all the rules go?" My other impression of D&D 4th edition was that it was very "rules light". At first, I thought maybe I was showing my age. Maybe this new material was like the mental equivalent of eating corn; in one hole and out the other; and I simply couldn't digest it. So, I gave the books a second read. What's missing? Specific (and sometimes even generic) rules to cover any non-combat situation. If you're on the battle grid, and you're using one of your power card attacks, you're well covered. However, some other situations that might come up in a role-playing game; such as: Climbing, Digging, Hiking, Holding Your Breath (and Suffocation), Jumping, Lifting and Moving Things, Running, Swimming, Flying, Throwing, Catching, Influencing NPCs, Fright Checks, Mounted Combat, Flying Combat, Hit Locations, Striking At Weapons, Unarmed Combat, Starvation and Dehydration, Sleeping (and Missed Sleep), Acid, Cold, Falling, Fire, Seasickness, Aging ... not really covered in the depth you find in almost any other RPG, including any previous version of D&D. For example, from the Player's Handbook this time: "Sleeping and Waking Up You need at least 6 hours of sleep every day to keep functioning at your best. If, at the end of an extended rest, you haven't slept at least 6 hours in the last 24, you gain no benefit from that extended rest. When you're asleep, you're unconscious (see "Conditions," page 277). You wake up if you take damage or if you make a successful Perception check (with a -5 penalty) to hear sounds of danger. An ally can wake you up by shaking you (a standard action) or by shouting (a free action)." -- Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition, Player's Handbook, p.263 So basically D&D 4th edition "sleeping rules" boil down to: If you don't sleep 6 hours, you don't get your 1/day powers reset. (O BTW slp = uncnscs KTHXBYE) COME ADVENTURERS TO MY LAIR. THOUGH I HAVE NOT SLEPT A MINUTE IN OVER THREE YEARS, FEAR NOT, I'VE USED NOT ONE OF MY DAILY POWERS. YOUR DEATHS WILL STILL BE VERY PAINFUL IF SHORT, As i ... ... ... zzz ... zzz ... zzz ... zzz I mean, would it have been so hard to throw in a paragraph or table indicating an attribute, skill, or even combat penalty for not sleeping? Or indicate a skill check to make when trying to remain awake? (I mean, I've *never* heard of adventurers who need to post a watch around camp at night out in the wilderness or anything like that.) Then again, maybe it's somewhere in the books and I just missed it. And I guess that's the most disturbing part; the real hunks of meat that make up the rules of most any RPG are scattered to the winds and surrounded by fluff. All signs point back to the "power cards" that dominate the chapter on character classes. Absolutely everything else is given second-rate treatment (if it's treated at all). So, the reason it doesn't feel like D&D? It doesn't feel like an RPG. Not all RPGs were D&D, but D&D was always an RPG, until 4th edition. 4th edition doesn't suck compared to other editions, it just plain sucks. I forgive WotC for putting it out; they were probably too busy working on crossword puzzles to make a role playing game.
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| # ? Mar 25, 2009 08:10 |
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I never realized so many old people who played rpg's were dumb as loving bricks, and actually NEEDED 500+ pages of tables and charts to explain the most minute poo poo. "Roll an ability check for those things!? PFAH, GET ME MY CHARTS BINDER, I SHALL CROSS REFERENCE THE TABLES!" "Homebrew several additional skills or feats to fit my setting and desires!? I AM NO ROCKET BIOLOGIST SIR THIS IS A ROLE PLAYING GAME NO THE WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY CONVENTION!"
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| # ? Mar 25, 2009 12:09 |
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i can tell you right now, the lack of explicit rules for staying awake versus falling asleep has ruined many 4e gaming sessions i've been involved in (we use 4e as a generic ruleset to play games in the Little Nemo-verse)
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| # ? Mar 25, 2009 13:56 |
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So now 4e has not enough rules? Or too many? what?
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| # ? Mar 25, 2009 14:11 |
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RagnarokAngel posted:So now 4e has not enough rules? Or too many? what? One thing I do know is that it is wholly incapable of handling MY BARD
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| # ? Mar 25, 2009 15:44 |
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Like seriously people need rules for everything. For sleep? really? How often does that come up in games? and when it does when has a simple con check not sufficied? no everything must be calculated for optimum game balance.
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| # ? Mar 25, 2009 16:01 |
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I post using a series of charts and tables.
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| # ? Mar 25, 2009 16:04 |
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RagnarokAngel posted:Like seriously people need rules for everything. For sleep? really? How often does that come up in games? and when it does when has a simple con check not sufficied? How else am I supposed to min max if there's no rules governing it and I have to rely on my DM'S judgment?!?!? I've been playing games since G. Gygax was just a mote of sperm, and this "freeform" nonsense is many things, but D&D it is not good sir!
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| # ? Mar 25, 2009 16:07 |
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I get it. I really do. The mechanics are a mess. They were various degrees of bad under 1ed, and that tradition continued under 2ed. I get that people don't like the setting. They say it's too "small" now, too heavy on metaplot, too many nipple piercings, too many heroin pissing dinosaurs, too many people focusing on the setting without bitching about the mechanics. I get it. This isn't a thread about that. This is a thread about Exalted hate fucks. This is a minus thread for negativity about Exalted. And it's based on one premise: Just get your hate gently caress and move on. Mechanical hate fuckers: The game isn't going to magically fix all the broken stuff that's come before, and all the new stuff is probably going to be broken too. Quit saying "if book X isn't mechanically sound I'm dropping the game" only to bitch about all the mechanical problems you've found in all the products since X. Quit grandstanding like your opinion means a poo poo, only to backpeddle the second some new shiny thing comes out. It also doesn't change the fact that people having fun playing the game are having fun playing the game. I know it's hard to understand, but you'll just have to trust me on this. If someone says they're playing "by the rules" and having fun, the correct response is not to tell them all the ways that such a statement is contradictory. Setting hate fuckers: You guys are even worse. You're bitching about loving make believe stuff. "The Wyld Hunt killed my pony." "Beasts of Resplendent Liquids are so bad they ruined my memories of playing D&D." "All the detail in 2ed stifles my creativity." "I hate that there's metaplot, and I hate that the metaplot contradicts itself." If you lack the confidence and imagination to ignore stuff you don't like and replace it with something better, don't even bother. Not just with Exalted, but with any game. Seriously, pack it up and take up another hobby like stamp collecting or getting hit in the nuts with a mallet. I don't care. Exalted is an RPG designed around the premise of a huge world with an open background. I'm sorry your feelings got hurt when the 2ed version Gem didn't match with your vision based on a torn paragraph you dreamed you read in badly mangled copy of the 1ed core. Have a wahwie pop. "But we hold out hope that Alchemicals/Infernals will be different!" No, it won't. At best you won't have more fuel to bitch about, at which point you just won't talk about it; you'll continue to bitch about everything else though. Equally likely is that they'll be as bad as all the other products that you told yourself would be "different". See, for you hate fuckers all you have is the hate gently caress. You don't want the game to be perfect, since your fun comes from finding the dog turds in the game. And you have to cram those turds down everyone's throat. Over, and over, and over, and over, and over. In. Every. Single. Exalted. Thread. But you can't quit the game. You don't like it, you don't play it, and the only way you really help anyone is by buying all the products you don't like and keeping the game line going. Well shine on you consumer whore!
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| # ? Mar 25, 2009 16:49 |
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Mikan posted:I post using a series of charts and tables. I... *rolls dice* ... take great offense at this thread!
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| # ? Mar 25, 2009 16:51 |
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| # ? May 24, 2013 21:54 |
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Welp I just wantered into TGD after staying in YCS TG threads and drat this is a good thread.
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| # ? Mar 25, 2009 22:22 |
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