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some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib

Mornacale posted:

The ironic thing is that war is awful and pretty much the worst thing that humans have ever done, and sports are fun to play and watch.

"Fun." Gamist.

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some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib

ocrumsprug posted:

This runs contrary to my wish to see him go bankrupt, and be forced to sell the IP to someone else that will actually make it into a playable game again.

Frankly, I'd just be happy if he were forced to sell the IP to someone who edits copy before they publish. 50' Ant's "manifesto" comment is highly apposite. RIFTS sourcebooks all have that "random" schizophrenic letter-to-the-editor-formatting in FULL EFFECT.

EDIT:
I kind of doubt that RIFTS was ever a fully playable game. I don't remember the exact specifics, but I was gearing up to run a RIFTS campaign at one point when I noticed that the way the rules are set up, a Glitterboy's rate of fire with its obscene cannon (can't remember what it's called, it's the gun you have to brace the armor to fire) actually goes up based on the character's DEX. I figured, that must be a mistake, since it lacks verisimilitude (yeah, yeah) and it starts making the class really unfair really quickly. I emailed Palladium and asked for a clarification, and while I wasn't really sure they understood my question, the answer I got was pretty definite: In RIFTS, if you have a high DEX, you make automatic weapons shoot faster.

It was only later that I discovered RIFTS was originally going to be called "Glitterboys".

Also as a Wisconsinite I resent the fate of my hometown in the setting.

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib
This couldn't possibly be PR, because it's succeeding as PR.

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib

MadScientistWorking posted:

I think that the Warlord is ridiculous as a core class.

A warlord is simply someone who has experience leading others in battle. So, why should my 1st-level teenage character just starting out already be a "lord" of anytihng? It makes no sense whatsoever. Being a warlord implies having experience in war above anything else, and thus it makes zero sense as a class available to early-level characters. Make the warlord a PrC or some type of advanced build/template, but it has absolutely no business being a base class in 5E.

We already have the perfect set of 10 or 11 base classes from 3E, and there is no logical justification whatsoever for adding or subtracting from that set.

If it ain't broke...
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Retitle the class "Tactician." Problem solved.

It says I have clerical abilities but THERE ARE NO TYPEWRITERS IN HIGH FANTASY THIS CLASS IS MAKES NO SENSE RRGH

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib

ProfessorCirno posted:

quote:

You are forgetting that we're talking about core, the first PHB, i.e. the starting point.

Moving away from a classical view (both mechanics and flavor) is exactly what caused problems to 4e. You, me and everybody else who's been playing D&D long enough may want to move further to uncharted territories. But we all start from the same starting point to even define what would be original, we may want to go towards different directions, and there's a lot of others who don't feel the need to or are just starting to play D&D for the first time.

Trying something new in the core means to drag everybody else into the same direction, which is only one in thousands possible directions. Let campaign settings take care of that (we will never have too many of them), and supplements provide sparse bits for each DM to craft their own. But the core desperately needs to be stereotypically D&D, and recent history has simply proved that.

Maybe I'm just too groggy, but apart from this guy's probably-wrong empirical assertions (bid'a ruined 4e; the core "desperately needs" to be "classical") I sort of agree, in a way. Being "My First RPG" is almost D&D's brand identity, and when they move away from the vibe or whatever that grew up around their earlier choices, they risk the loyalty of the people who enjoy the atmosphere of the earlier product.

The more fluff you keep out of the core rules, the more fluff you can spin out into sourcebooks. You keep grogs happy (to the extent that's possible), new players don't notice because they'd only have the newly reduced core as a baseline, and anybody who wants, say, devas can get that book.

It's a problem that only faces D&D, because of its reputation and market share, though. People have particular expectations of the franchise. And I agree with the grog that it's best to play to those expectations rather than to fight against them.

When you consider that everybody's conception of "classic" D&D is tied to their own personal biographies, and is totally subjective (except mine; everything but 2e Dark Sun is bullshit), then the thing that the grog should argue WotC "desperately" needs to do is replicate in the core books the state of D&D as it was when the greatest number of active gamers played their first game.

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib

ProfessorCirno posted:

Explain to me why "my first RPG" needs to have the fluff and ideals of an almost 80 year old fantasy series while actively pushing away anything from modern popular fiction.

It doesn't. My point about it's being "my first RPG" is that it doesn't matter at all what fluff and ideals it has. It's entry-level. All it has to do is be what people expect.

quote:

D&D is obsessed with it's own past. The answer to this problem is not to dive even deeper into the Ouroboros of sucking it's own dick.

There is a reason that just about every parcel of modern pop fantasy has abandoned the idea of all races just being "Elf, dwarf, human, hobbit." And the ones that do still hold on to that have at least changed up the races a bit or altered their starting point. Flat Tolkienism isn't going to draw in new players. It's just old players sucking themselves off some more.
I don't know what exact reason you're referring to, but I think part of the reason that parcels reject Tolkienism is that it's generic--rejecting this or that Tolkienistic motif is a way for the other parcels to define themselves against the D&D/LOTR monoliths, whether their field is gaming or fantasy fiction. But when you're trying to be D&D, considered as the generic/archetypal RPG of any genre, then I think the way you capture the broadest swath of the market is to be generic, and then allow for customization with splatbooks.

quote:

Edit: I mean poo poo, look at how it ends. It doesn't end with "This is my idea for 5e" or "This is some new stuff they could do with the races." It ends with "Literally do not change anything and just remake AD&D until the end of time."

I don't think my recommendation is for a static, unchanging D&D. What I meant when I suggested that WotC should cater to the favored period of the greatest number of active gamers is that they should incorporate into the core those pieces of fluff and those mechanics that prove to be the most successful and the most favorite from whatever time that is, not once, but constantly--in essence, "auditioning" new concepts in splatbooks and incorporating them into the core in later editions assuming they gain enough currency, and likewise retiring from the core the bits and pieces that don't track.

My prediction, despite that, is that a significant amount of Tolkienism will stand, because that is what people, even and perhaps especially non-gamers, expect out of D&D.

I also don't think it would be terrible to never change anything and just remake AD&D until the end of time. It wouldn't be terrible to just constantly remake 2, 3, or 4e either. Maybe D&D would fall out of touch with contemporary expectations, maybe not. In such an event, supposing RP gaming is still a thing, we could expect some other game that does a better job of connecting with those expectations to replace it.

I personally hope that game is Skyrealms of Jorune.

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib

mandrake776 posted:

This is great, where did you find it?

I wrote it.

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib

Evil Mastermind posted:

I know I did. I got the PDF for free, and still dropped $50 or whatever it was on the hardcopy.


Same here. The PDF is great to have but not the best for reading on a laptop. Plus they obviously did so much work on it that using it without paying for it makes you feel like kind of an rear end in a top hat.

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib

Drox posted:

Link him.

Don't do that.

Link him to a different thread, let him stumble on this one.

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib

Angry Diplomat posted:

Ninjas are expert assassins, skilled saboteurs, and masters of unarmed combat. Therefore a ninja should be able to locate a battleship's weak point and shatter it with a mighty chi-empowered jump kick. Meanwhile the fighter will cover him by shouting planes out of the sky, and the rogue will swamp the battleship's escorts by stealing the clouds and tricking the wind into thinking that the escort ships did it.

If you don't allow this in your game you are a joyless rear end in a top hat.

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib
Would this mean if you don't have the right class feature you're not allowed to take prisoners?

Show no mercy! You don't have the prerequisites for that feat!

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib
We really need a wizard character with Transmutation as a specialty school. It's very important that you be able to cast Polymorph Self. Hint hint.

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib
I think you meant to post this in white-privilege.txt.

EDIT: My mistake, there's not really a difference.

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib
When you say that, don't you think you're drawing an unnecessary distinction between "being sexualized" and "performing one's gender"?

I think the Conan vs. Vaan/boy bands/etc. dynamic we're discussing can be explained just as well by saying that Conan represents a very stereotypical masculine gender performance of a particular type, whereas the apparent lack of dominance associated with the Vaan image is a stereotypically feminine gender performance.

Looking at the distinction in terms of gender performance rather than sexualization allows us to note that there's something about the feminine gender performance that causes or permits people to sexualize the feminine image. It also allows for the inevitable case of someone showing up to point out that someone out there might conceivably view Conan as beefcake--the sexualization of the Conan image takes place in the context of its content as power fantasy.

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib
Has anyone seen this yet?

http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2012/02/evil-mastermind-from-grognardstxt.html?zx=fa35c85b7316bd2fp

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib

Strontosaurus posted:

This is disgusting. "Come out and play?" Who does this guy think he is? He sounds like a lovely movie serial killer.

I was thinking douchey high school principal.

Either way Jeffrey Jones is playing him in the movie.

EDIT: I am going to start talking this way in my everyday life. Strontosaurus from grognards.txt, come out and play. Come over to Luigi's on 22nd Avenue. We will have a stromboli.

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib
Yeah man. Dude who wrote Vornheim called you out. Elfgames arguments ain't nothing to gently caress wit.

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib
Oh don't worry it's cool guys no problem he's promising not to bite now.

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib

LincolnSmash posted:

I don't get the impression he's angry or upset. I think he just wants to talk. Which is kinda what the 'net is for. The whole communication thing.

Well then why not say "hey guys let's talk about how we talk about games and put our conversation on the net" instead of posting a personal call-out on his blog in High Supervillain?

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib
No way guys it's totally The Offspring.

E:

LincolnSmash posted:

You could ask him. ;)

Pass.

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib

Mikan posted:

maybe...we were the true grognards all along :wth:

That's kind of hackneyed. I hope we're the C2 dickheads, though. They sound like my kind of people.

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib
How does a thread devoted to compartmentalized mockery of particular gamer excesses make it hard for reasonable people elsewhere to discuss games?

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib
I just don't get why he demands agreement with his every assertion as a precondition for moving forward. Does he think he's a DA?

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib
I guess only Evil Mastermind is allowed to respond to Zak on his "Observed Phenomenon 1." I tried and my post got deleted. So much for dialogue.

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib

Ettin posted:

You just need fewer line breaks. They look for paragraph-sized chunks to quote so that it looks good.

@Ettin> I'm not angry about it at all, mate. I enjoy reading grognards.txt and am glad to be featured in it regularly, though I notice my quotes haven't been as common now that I'm not posting on therpgsite anymore. :(

I FEED ON THIS poo poo

EDIT: For my next trick I will get banned from a blog by a man with no self-awareness.

EDIT2: Actually apparently he will choose to delete the three posts preceding the one where someone scolds the two of us for slapfighting. Which I will have to accept because I have work in the morning.

EDIT3: I was wrong. Dude is actually systematically deleting all my posts while leaving his rebuttals in place. Way to act grown up. So, if you ever bother to read this, Zak S -- one of the reasons to be sceptical of someone inviting you to debate him on his blog is the risk that he will have an attack of the sads like you just did and delete your posts in a fit of pique.

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib

copy posted:

So which one of you is Nate? Because this guy is flipping out over you and it's getting pretty funny because now it looks like he's also deleting all of your comments. This is the best/dumbest thing to happen to this thread in a while.

My favorite part is where right before he deleted all of that poo poo he goes "look if anybody doesn't like the way I post stuff say it now and please quote it" *spends all night typing like a robot programmed to scold people*

It is me. I am Nate.

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib
No, he really deleted it. I saved a version of the page with all my comments intact as a .pdf if you really want to savor my burnished prose; unfortunately I don't have a way to screenshot an entire webpage at once in Firefox.

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib

Mikan posted:

I've gone post to post with hardcore grogs, awful people before, for way way too long
and yet trying to have a reasonable discussion with Zak S was exhausting after just five posts

I actually responded to him for a while on his site and if he doesn't delete it you can read it there

Good luck on that. I think the reason he prefers to argue on his blog is that if he starts to lose an argument he can just delete the whole thing, like he did last night.

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib

Halloween Jack posted:

Sun elf, moon elf, wild elf, wood elf, high elf, grey elf, dark elf, winged elf, aquatic elf, deep elf, black elf, white elf, blue elf, red elf, green elf, brass elf, bronze elf, copper elf, gold elf, silver elf, brown elf, purple elf, iron elf, tungsten elf, adamantine elf, nickel elf, chromium elf, cobalt elf, iron elf, crystal elf, emerald elf, sapphire elf, topaz elf, ruby elf, amethyst elf, arboreal elf, astral elf, axial elf, beast elf, chaos elf, chole elf, concordant elf, ectoplasmic elf, faerie elf, pseudoelf, elysian elf, ethereal elf, gloom elf, howling elf, oceanus elf, pyroclastic elf, radiant elf, rust elf, styx elf, tarterian elf, fang elf, song elf, sand elf, incarnum elf, force elf, prismatic elf, time elf, sand elf, hex elf, tome elf, magma elf, ooze elf, earth elf, smoke elf, slime elf, ice elf, storm elf, taint elf, ruin elf, shadow elf, hill elf, stone elf, frost elf, fire elf, cloud elf, fog elf, mountain elf, wood elf, desert elf, jungle elf, reef elf, ocean elf, sea elf, spacesea elf, forest elf, death elf, eldritch elf, salt elf, taiga elf, volcano elf, marsh elf, ferrous elf, cave elf, aberrant elf, sky elf, sovereign elf, underworld elf, umbral elf, brine elf, river elf, rift elf, obsidian elf, acid elf, lightning elf, air elf, water elf, mud elf, ash elf, bone elf, mithral elf, tallow elf, wax elf, clockwork elf, flesh elf, fossil elf, glass elf, alchemical elf, blood elf, mercury elf, plasma elf, ochre elf, mustard elf, russet elf, stun elf, yellow elf, garden elf, amber elf, brain elf, brimstone elf, entropic elf, glacier elf, cairn elf, crag elf, fjord elf, dust elf, steam elf, guardian elf, lunar elf, royal elf, spirit elf, moss elf, swamp elf, ghost-faced elf,

Dwarf elf, quarter-elf, fish elf, wind elf, barrow elf, ralphm elf, elfwolf.

Elf dwarf, half-dwarf, quarter-dwarf, horse dwarf, hill dwarf, ale dwarf, bull dwarf, rock dwarf, stone dwarf, pebble dwarf, astral dwarf, astral dwarf (native outsider), scrub dwarf, brush dwarf, tundra dwarf, bog dwarf, rune dwarf, axe dwarf, sword dwarf, house dwarf, giant dwarf, axiomatic dwarf, chaos dwarf, golf dwarf

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib

Zak S posted:

Re: Nate
Once I realized Nate was this guy:
"I was thinking douchey high school principal.
Either way Jeffrey Jones is playing him in the movie."

"Yeah man. Dude who wrote Vornheim called you out. Elfgames arguments ain't nothing to gently caress wit."

"Oh don't worry it's cool guys no problem he's promising not to bite now."

"Well then why not say "hey guys let's talk about how we talk about games and put our conversation on the net" instead of posting a personal call-out on his blog in High Supervillain?"

(as if I had a choice? thanks for the benefit of the doubt)

"Someone else: "You could ask him. "

Nate: "Pass."

I realized he was the kind of person who assumes bad faith before even talking to somebody. That is: a dick whose hobby is insulting other people on the internet.

So I don't want to talk to him and nothing he says matters.
________

Basically the ruling is: no personal attacks, ever, anywhere. Except, of course, you can pile insults all over trolls on their way out. Because gently caress them they are slowing down the progress of the human race and deserve it.

tldr: No personal attacks, no exceptions, except when it benefits me personally.

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib

FactsAreUseless posted:

Here is a post about the ways in which a man seeks to emulate his hero, Sheldon from Big Bang Theory. Read the entire thing. You will not regret it.

After a vicious gangster threw acid on him at trial, mild-mannered DA Harvey Dent lost his mind, and was reborn as the criminally insane…d20-FACE!

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib

Assumethisisreal posted:

Zak S just called me an rear end on his blog. I think I've finally made it in this world!

Just wait until he deletes all the posts you made and calls you a dick.

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib
I see your point, but I think that gaming is just as much a social hobby is as music is for some people, and music (especially niche genre music) is where you see this attitude the most. I think the idea is, you've found something that you use as a proxy for the way most people make friends (the "it's what you like, not what you are like" theory from High Fidelity) and an "invasion" of people who disrupt their ability to use that proxy makes the people who use it feel threatened.

They want quality (as judged by a grog) over quantity in their gaming friends, in other words.

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib
Whenever I read this I spend a few minutes trying to figure out how what he is saying, if true, would be bad.

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib
After giving us this overview, the author then specifically calls out some of the aspects of hentai that are both the most pervasive, and most likely to offend: incest, lolicon, and rape. Regarding incest, he notes that while the book does touch on it, it's fairly subdued, only being used with a handful of powers and abilities. Lolicon, however (the sexualization of girls that appear/are prepubescent) is something that Black Tokyo completely ignores; it may certainly happen, but the book doesn't mention it past this section. Regarding the subject of rape, however, the author admits that it's simply too large a staple of horror hentai to be minimized or ignored. His suggestion is that, after discussing it with the players, determine which are comfortable with such a thing possibly happening to their characters, and for those who aren't, simply make sure it never happens to their PCs, no matter what's going on in the plot. Likewise, if a player decides he's not comfortable with it, the GM should accommodate him to preserve the fun of the game.

This section was where some of my zeal for the book began to diminish. For a product that calls itself "the hentai SRD" and focuses specifically on horror hentai, immediately zeroing in on some things as being in bad taste seems somewhat hypocritical, particularly compared to some of the things this book deals with later. It handles the incest theme pretty well, giving it some few specific feats and powers, but ignoring the issue of lolicon seemed like overkill. Is it really that hard to, say, design a flaw (a la Unearthed Arcana) to have a character be one size category smaller than normal, and have the physical attribute modifiers of a child (from the MSRD)? You do that, and there's your nod to the lolicon aspect right there, without having it be gratuitous (not that gratuity should be an issue here).

Likewise, the section where the author talks about rape deals only with the possibility that the PCs themselves could become rape victims. This glaringly ignores what I think it a much greater possibility: that the PCs themselves could force themselves on some of the NPCs they come across. Virtually no mention is made of this possibility (though it could be inferred, as some magic items, equipment, etc. have special powers against rapists), which seems to leave DMs who run into that situation out in the cold. Again, dead minimum, a set of clarifying rules regarding what kind of combat action it is to rape someone would have, at the very least, helped to manage that before it becomes an issue - because if the PCs are at all inclined to do that (and if they're playing less-than-morally-stellar characters in a horror hentai game, where rape victims often can't help but enjoy what's happening to them, then that's a real possibility) then it will become an issue (particularly when the DM decides that the schoolgirl the PC is assaulting is actually a mage, and she unleashes a lightning bolt right in his face as he's raping her).

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib
In the Volsungasaga, Fafnir was an evil dwarf who became a dragon, and I think he had magic powers before he did, so I think that whatever dragon powers he manifested were achieved through what would probably be, for D&D purposes, spellcasting.

Azhi Dahhag is a Persian/Zoroastrian dragon who appears in Islamic-era Persian literature as an evil sorcerer with snakes growing out of his shoulders. In pre-Islamic and Zoroastrian sources it's represented as being a reptilian monster with a range of magical powers, and is either a sorcerer or a demon depending on how you look at it. It appears in some form in Deities and Demigods, so you know somebody at TSR has at least heard of it, but it's anybody's guess as to whether TSR dragons were developed before or after the responsible parties heard of Azhi Dahag.

I imagine there's a reasonable possibility that Azhi Dahag influenced TSR dragons, considering the role MAR Barker played in early gaming and his connection to Dave Arneson. I don't know much about Barker's work but it's a fair guess that as an Urdu expert he might have a passing familiarity with Persian and/or Indo-Aryan literary material.

EDIT: I'm most inclined to believe that the process was something along the lines of "The game is called Dungeons & Dragons, so we'd better make the dragons as baller as possible. Wizards are the best. Therefore dragons should have 18+ INT and MU spells."

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib

Rasamune posted:

GAMES I CAN THINK OF
* Dungeons and Dragons
* Pathfinder
*

* Ars Magica
* Mage
* Adventures in Spelldonia: The Magickening
*

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib

ImpactVector posted:

Thanks to this thread every time I see women referred to as "females" my blood pressure goes up a point.

Sorry shidaku, but this is a silly argument that comes up time and time again in different contexts but which makes no sense at all.

A female human is a human with a set of additional characteristics that make her different from normal humans. Therefore the designation female is appropriate.

some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib
Yeah, I made that up. Sorry to slightly restore everybody's faith in gamers.

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some FUCKING LIAR
Sep 19, 2002

Fallen Rib

fosborb posted:

We've been doing that a bit in the last couple pages of the homebrew thread but honestly that's just because I got tired of the text walls and no dialog. Running models for published stuff would be fun too.

Yeah, it's what ended the sticky. Everyone's been very good little copypastas since then.


edit: VVVV yeah, I just got the email too. Very excited.

Can you explain to the rest of us (i.e. me) how to do dice probability mathematics? In the alternative, what would be a good book to get? I'd like to learn how to do what you are doing in the homebrew thread.