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So we can stop resurrecting the LP thread, here's one for Games! This is a thread about Kerberos Productions' 4X game Sword of the Stars and its two subsequent expansions: Born of Blood and A Murder of Crows. With both expansion packs, the game gives you six races to choose from, each with different technological specialties, a bloody huge tech tree, and three sizes of ships with some ridiculous number of component parts, weapons and optional upgrades. Where to find people for suggestions, setting up games, general questions, Hitler jokes and more: #sots @ irc.synirc.net Web IRC (mibbit) The Wiki: http://sots.rorschach.net/ This will answer most things that you will undoubtably looking up that the IRC channel can't help you with. Hiver Human Liir Tarkas Some rough beginners' guides to your first baby steps as some of the races!  The BasicsSword of the Stars gameplay consists of two parts: the turn-based general interface (strategic), and the real-time combat(tactical). So in this sense, it's similar to the Total War games. The turn-based aspects consist of: Moving!   You obviously have to move from system to system to get anywhere in the game. All ships have a limited amount of fuel, some ships have more. Some ships refuel other ships, some ships can take resources from a planet to make more fuel to refuel your ships! All races have different types of interstellar travel, speeds associated with each type of power plant (fission, fusion, antimatter) and specific upgrades to that which increase speed and strategic range. Management!   Population control, planet-sharing with other races to increase the number of citizens you can have without detrimentally effecting the planet, overharvesting resources in a pinch, balancing the need to build ships and to trade, marking planets for future colonization, subjugation or annihilation, it's all here. Research!   Progressing up the branching techtree can sometimes be haphazard, as most races have a chance to get every technology, but some races have much higher chances in some areas than others. Welcome to the first random number generator you will complain about when you, say, don't get point defense. You can also blindly dump funding into something to try and boost a project, but you might also have a catastrophic failure of some sort, including but not limited to; your research blowing up and setting you back several turns, outbreaks of the pathogens you are currently working, and your artificial intelligence rebelling against you and taking a number of colonies and ships with it. Design!   Destroyers, cruisers, dreadnoughts, orbital defenses of three corresponding sizes, gigantic space stations that can be built even surrounding uninhabitable worlds! Each standard ship has three sections, bridge, mission and engine. These all determine things like how many guns, what type of guns, how fast it goes, how fast it turns, what, if any special abilities it has like cloaking, detecting cloaking, missile misleading and redirection, absorbing energy weapons fire and directing it towards recharging your own weapons, refueling, repairing, or just being really good at blowing things up. Within these three sections themselves there are various upgrades and options available to you, such as cryostasis on your colonizers allowing you to cram even more people into a ship, reflective coatings to help bounce lasers and energy weapons, reinforced hull construction to help bounce kinetic weaponry, stealth sheathing to make your ships harder to detect until they're right on top of the enemy, engine upgrades to increase the strategic range, and things like shields that stop everything but can overload, shields that stop all energy weapons, or shields that stop all kinetic weapons. Weapons-wise, there are three different sizes of general weapons (small, medium and large), with energy weapons (lasers, cannons beams on turrets, beams [i]not[/] on turrets, energy projectors), missile weapons (homing missiles, dumbfire missiles, missiles that release corrosive agents, missiles that explode into six missiles to create a point defense nightmare), mines (exploding mines, cloaking mines, jumping mines, gravity well mines!), ballistic weapons (guns that shoot, guns that shoot further, guns that knock you around, bullet hoses, guns that sap energy, guns that break shields) and torpedoes (torpedoes that home, torpedoes that don't, torpedoes that pass through shields, and torpedoes that get bigger the further they travel until exploding catastrophically against someone's hull!) Then there is the combat part where you get to unleash all this delightful weaponry.  You can autoresolve combats if you think you're going to win, and generally the AI does a fair job of not botching it too bad. For example: if you have advanced cloaking and your opponent has no way of detecting cloaked ships, you are practically guaranteed a win. With command and control ships in your fleet, you can field more ships than someone who doesn't, preposition your fleet before engaging in combat and specify the order that reinforcements will warp in.You can order your ships around yourself and take advantage of the AI behavior modifiers you can use, such as the way you want your ship to orient itself towards its target (bow, broadside, rear), if you want it to close in for the kill or hang back and hammer away.You can focus your fire on specific weapons and other parts of a ship to disable them. Torpedo launcher giving you a headache? Shoot it off, and ignore the ship while you move onto something more dangerous!For example: one benefit is that the game rewards you much more for disarming an alien derelict instead of outright destroying it. What else? In addition to squaring off against up to 7 other players, AI- and/or human-controlled, the game also loves to randomly send space bees, space ghosts, space pyramids, space robots, space rocks, bigger and scarier space bees, space nightmares, space wrecks and many more delights after you and your colonies. For dealing with other players, the game gives you a variety of diplomatic options to pursue, from simple ceasefires to alliances where you can pool resources for research. You also can research another species' language to facilitate better communication and allow for more intricate diplomacy (their eventual subjugation, downfall etc.)As for the six races, you've got:  The HiversThe Hivers are your stereotypical space bugs, but slightly smarter than most and not necessarily hell-bent on eating the entire galaxy, another race has that cliche. They have the slowest engines for interstellar travel, but they compensate for it by also having warp gates that allow instantaneous travel between systems in which the gates have been deployed. Their ships are also ridiculously tough, and their tech tree probabilities are incredibly high for ballistic weapons and hull-strengthening. Not the easiest to play, but they become an indomitable steamroller at the end of the game.  HumanityWe're still alive and kicking, despite a slight misunderstanding that blew up Earth. Humanity is a relatively jack-of-all-trades race, with moderately fragile ships that have devastating broadside firing arcs. Humans travel through "warp nodes", preestablished lines between systems that are much faster than other methods of travel and cannot be intercepted in freespace. Unfortunately you have little control over just where these warp nodes lead, which sometimes means that you will get bottlenecked by a single system that can be locked down by an opposing player. Fast-expanding, straightforward shipbuilding, humanity is a good choice for beginners.  The LiirAngsty psychic space whales. Enslaved by an unknown race until several centuries ago, the Liir killed them off with biological warfare and then leapfrogged off of their technology to branch out to the stars. If you sneeze on their ships, they explode. This is compensated somewhat by their higher likelihood to get advanced shielding technology, as well as top-tier energy weapons. They also research significantly faster than the other races. Liir warp drive is based on microteleportation many times a second, which means they are inertialess and have ridiculous maneuverability. Gravity wells negatively effect this technology however, and as a result Liir maneuverability and speed near planets (in combat) and solar systems (in the general map) suffer.  The MorrigiSpace dragons! The Morrigi are one of the oldest races in the galaxy (and newest in the game, being added in A Murder of Crows) and were originally taken from a random encounter that tended to wipe out whatever fleet you blundered into it with and then disappear forever. Only a shadow of their former selves, the Morrigi of today are out for vengeance and ready to reclaim their place at the top of the galaxy. Tech-wise they have ridiculously high probabilities for robotics/drone technology and start with several of them already. Probability-wise they're similar to the Liir, so you're best off concentrating on energy weapons. Morrigi drive technology is like a sled on the hill. The more people on the sled, the faster you will go. Morrigi ships are at their slowest on their own. In combat, they are relatively maneuverable. They also like purple. So should you.  The TarkaScaly space monkeys. Their ships aren't quite as tough as the hivers, but they can still take a lot of punishment. Additionally, most of their weaponry is forward-oriented, allowing them to concentrate a positively obscene amount of fire. Pretty similar tech-wise to the Hivers as well. Their star drive is the most uninspired out of the five. It gets you there, period. Somewhat slow to start, by the third iteration of their hyperdrive they zoom along just like everyone else. Also a pretty good race to start as.  The ZuulPsychic misogynistic violent space marsupials, like the Morrigi, they also started as a random encounter in the first game that came and kidnapped your population to use as a labor force on their own planets. Zuul are malevolent intergalactic scavengers, whose ships look cobbled-together and mount a hell of a lot more and bigger guns than anyone else. If any other race researches the first of the Zuul xenotech, they get access to a mission section appropriately titled as a "War" section, with the focus being on larger guns on a smaller frame, sacrificing durability, maneuverability and speed for the ability to bring a comparatively ridiculous amount of fire to bear. This is how the Zuul function in general. They gradually deplete the resources of all their colonies, and are forced to go out in search of slaves and new worlds to boost their industrial capacity. Their drive technology functions around "bore ships" that essentially make their own warp nodes from planet to planet. If anyone has anything else they think I should add to the OP (hilarious screenshots, more information etc), post and I most certainly will. Tanith fucked around with this message at Apr 28, 2009 around 16:00 |
| # ? Mar 22, 2009 01:43 |
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| # ? Feb 09, 2010 16:34 |
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Now, just to preempt the people who are going to complain: Sword of the Stars is practically a different game now to what it was at launch. The developers added a ton of features and content through patches and expansions, and it's now a much deeper experience overall. It's still geared towards realtime multiplayer though, so don't go expecting Civilization-depth empire management. However, there is more complexity in that side of the game than there was originally.
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| # ? Mar 22, 2009 01:52 |
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I love games like these and I am pretty surprised I haven't heard of this before, but will now check it out. Thanks!
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| # ? Mar 22, 2009 03:02 |
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I remember really having issues with the game when it launched, but I never went back to pick it up. I see the whole collection is available for 45 bucks on Gamersgate, which is really tempting.
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| # ? Mar 22, 2009 03:38 |
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I just ran across the LP thread a couple days ago and decided to get this. Gonna get started, any tips for humans? From the tech tree it seems like they have a good shot at guns and beams.
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| # ? Mar 22, 2009 03:41 |
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Followed over from Let's Play - hopefully this'll get people interested and we can get some online games together!
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| # ? Mar 22, 2009 03:43 |
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Dominic White posted:Now, just to preempt the people who are going to complain: Sword of the Stars is practically a different game now to what it was at launch. How would you rate the current game vs what was put out at release? I recall early reviews saying that the game was mediocre at best, and generally people who were interested in this jumped ship to Sins of the Solar Empire. Is this now better than the latter?
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| # ? Mar 22, 2009 03:54 |
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So is the multiplayer just the real time battles total war style?
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| # ? Mar 22, 2009 03:56 |
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Brackhar posted:How would you rate the current game vs what was put out at release? I recall early reviews saying that the game was mediocre at best, and generally people who were interested in this jumped ship to Sins of the Solar Empire. Is this now better than the latter? As a person who hated this game when it was launched, I gotta say that the developers have made major strides over the years and it has been considerably improved. It is much, much deeper and complex than it was initially and most of the kinks, bugs and glitches have been ironed out. I would strongly suggest that any one who likes 4X games at least give the most up-to-date demo a shot. The only thing I wish they changed was either to release all the games on DVD or at least use a decent content delivery system like Steam. To my knowledge, A Murder of Crows is still only available via GamersGate and the other two (or the bundled pack) are extremely rare.
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| # ? Mar 22, 2009 04:05 |
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I'm gonna say it right now, Hivers are the best race ever   Click here for the full 1024x768 image. Seriously, how you can beat a race that tends to get the best armor tech possible, as well as instant-warp gates and the space shotguns?
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| # ? Mar 22, 2009 04:08 |
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Gawaine posted:I just ran across the LP thread a couple days ago and decided to get this. Gonna get started, any tips for humans? From the tech tree it seems like they have a good shot at guns and beams. That's actually one of the problems with humans: it's not perfectly clear what you should be going for. Tailor your ships to suit your playstyle. http://sots.rorschach.net/Research This page has techtrees, the AMoC one has racial probabilities for the various techs. Brackhar posted:How would you rate the current game vs what was put out at release? I recall early reviews saying that the game was mediocre at best, and generally people who were interested in this jumped ship to Sins of the Solar Empire. Is this now better than the latter? I actually have yet to play SoaSE so I can't say, but the two expansions have definitely improved the gameplay by leaps and bounds. The game still has the remarkable ability to frustrate you beyond measure in terms of random encounters, climate viability and techtree stupidity, but Office Sheep posted:So is the multiplayer just the real time battles total war style? I guess since you mention it the game is certainly similar to Total War. I wish they would add limited 3rd plane movement that was in your control like homeworld, but the ships do an ok job of it themselves I guess. Combat AI/UI has definitely improved somewhat, and not only are your ships smarter, but you can also have them do things like barrel roll do bring weapons that aren't recharging to bear.
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| # ? Mar 22, 2009 04:21 |
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Office Sheep posted:So is the multiplayer just the real time battles total war style? The whole game is designed so that the overmap campaign can be played in turns a couple of minutes long, so the multiplayer is the whole thing, not just battles. It was the primary complaint in a lot of reviews - they're treating it like a pure singleplayer game where it's designed to be played with others.
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| # ? Mar 22, 2009 04:26 |
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I loved SOTS when it came out despite its flaws because it's just the right amount of 4x and rts for a fast turn-based multiplayer game (for me), and played it a bit with the other people on SA who had it at the time. It also helps that saving and picking up multiplayer games is really easy. I haven't played it multiplayer since then, but the expansions (especially AMOC) really do add a fair amount to the diplomacy side of the game. I'd encourage people who are curious about it to check out the gameplay explanation videos on the wiki - the guy goes into a fair amount of detail about how the game works and what the expansions add to the mix. Wiki's Video page I'd be down for some MP as well.
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| # ? Mar 22, 2009 05:25 |
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Recently I've realized that I am, to put it bluntly, completely poo poo at the tactical combat in this game. I've played the Hivers a lot beforehand, and with them I've generally just parked my ships, arranged them in a formation to reduce friendly fire, turned broadsides, and duked it out. But then I tried playing Liir and Morrigi and got my rear end handed to me. So... Any tips for playing those races? Or any tips on places to look for more tips?
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| # ? Mar 22, 2009 13:03 |
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Psychotic Weasel posted:The only thing I wish they changed was either to release all the games on DVD or at least use a decent content delivery system like Steam. To my knowledge, A Murder of Crows is still only available via GamersGate and the other two (or the bundled pack) are extremely rare. If you can find it, the collectors edition is the original game and the first expansion. But I dont see how they are rare. The original game with both expansions is on gamersgate.
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| # ? Mar 22, 2009 14:23 |
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This game along with Born of Blood can be gotten off Impulse. I wish they would bring MoC to it.
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| # ? Mar 22, 2009 14:33 |
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Dominic White posted:Now, just to preempt the people who are going to complain: Sword of the Stars is practically a different game now to what it was at launch. The developers added a ton of features and content through patches and expansions, and it's now a much deeper experience overall. There are three things that pissed me off and made me hate the game at launch. 1) The galaxy map being in 3d, was annoying as hell to deal with, and especially stupid since the entire rest of the game, including combat was in 2d. All it did was make it hard to view and manage the empire. 2) Ships in combat often refused to follow orders, it was hard to get them to position because of the backward ways that you placed move orders in version 1.0 3) The AI was merciless to the point of not even giving a beginner a chance, or at least hard enough that I wasn't willing to get past my first 2 issues. Tell me these are fixed and I will kiss you and try this game again, because I loved what this game looked like it was suppose to be.
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| # ? Mar 22, 2009 14:38 |
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Underwhelmed posted:There are three things that pissed me off and made me hate the game at launch. Yea, I bought the original but never really got into it. All the concepts though were pretty interesting especially the attempts to make a 4x without so much micro-management on the colony side.
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| # ? Mar 22, 2009 15:44 |
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Underwhelmed posted:There are three things that pissed me off and made me hate the game at launch. 1) The galaxy map is still 3D and is easy to handle unless you're a gay baby . Seriously though, they included a "flat" map where all the stars are on the same plane, as yours was a common complaint. Barring that there's some galaxy types that are more flat and less a big cloud of stars.2) Aside from one instance(mentioned below) I've never had a ship not listen to orders unless I set them to engage at will and forgot about it. 3) There's difficulty levels for the A.I. Easy is pretty easy and generally lets you get a pretty huge tech lead without completely turning the A.I. into useless pants-shitters who don't do anything. Now for my problem, how do I launch drones in Murder of Crows? I've tried everything I can think of and while the carriers will move in and shoot they'll never launch their fighters. In ended up stopping using them or auto-resolving battles where they played a part. Am I retarded or was this a bug of some sort (I haven't really played since it launched) ?
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| # ? Mar 22, 2009 15:59 |
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Been going through the tutorials trying to get a handle on things. How do you refit existing ships when you get new technology?
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| # ? Mar 22, 2009 16:27 |
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RentACop posted:Now for my problem, how do I launch drones in Murder of Crows? I've tried everything I can think of and while the carriers will move in and shoot they'll never launch their fighters. In ended up stopping using them or auto-resolving battles where they played a part. Am I retarded or was this a bug of some sort (I haven't really played since it launched) ? Failing that, if you click on the drone icon on the ship, it will automatically launch the drones... you'll just need to keep an eye on them to make sure they are relaunching them after they land and resupply. Gawaine posted:Been going through the tutorials trying to get a handle on things. How do you refit existing ships when you get new technology?
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| # ? Mar 22, 2009 16:42 |
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Well despite not being too crazy about the games they do a few things pretty good: -Unique weapons, the weapon selection is pretty crazy and well-developed. Getting newer weapons often means newer nasty abilities instead of just plain damage upgrades. Like some nasty torpedoes that stun enemy vessels. -Colony development is pretty straightforward and easy to understand vs. the crazy micro of older 4x games -Races are pretty unique due to tech probabilities, ship design differences plus the different ways they use to get from point A to B -The combat is tactical in nature and it's very rewarding to crush larger fleets due to careful tactics. It also fun watching your more advanced vessels annihilate a less advanced fleet -The tech tree is pretty well-developed. -Nasty disasters that keep things interesting and unpredictable
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| # ? Mar 22, 2009 16:50 |
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SotS is one of my favorite games. Has been since they started patching 1.0. I recommend playing Tarka first for new people, navigation and tactics are very straight forward. The Human's node lines clutter up the map a bit more too. Gawaine posted:Been going through the tutorials trying to get a handle on things. How do you refit existing ships when you get new technology? My Core systems often end up with horribly outdated defense fleets. I just never scuttle anything unless its horribly damaged. After playing Hivers this changed. I just send my old, lovely fusion destroyers to the front lines to be wiped out. Love the gates.
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| # ? Mar 22, 2009 17:57 |
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Any advice to a newbie just getting into the game? I tend to tinker with The Morrigi. Also it seems 90% of the time my research goes "over-budget" several turns. As amusing as the picture is with a Morrigi giving a cute "Ummmmmm...." pose it still is a bit annoying having to wait and spend extra money. Anyway to avoid this?
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| # ? Mar 22, 2009 18:09 |
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etalian posted:Well despite not being too crazy about the games they do a few things pretty good: This is exactly what I like (sans the lack of colony MM, some is good) I wish I could take this game's combat, and weapons/ship tech and stick it into Galactic civs 2. I might have to trust you jack asses and give this one another try.
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| # ? Mar 22, 2009 19:11 |
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Mr. Dragoon posted:Any advice to a newbie just getting into the game? I tend to tinker with The Morrigi. Nope! Welcome to the wonderful world of SCIENCE!To balance it out you also sometimes get tremendous breakthroughs. (Also play as Tarka so you get to at least see your scientists committing seppuku when your research goes overbudget). Also does anyone know of a comprehensive list of the changes made to the game?
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| # ? Mar 22, 2009 19:25 |
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Tanith posted:Nope! Welcome to the wonderful world of You can find a list of all the changes on the Kerberos forums. I think the old patch notes threads are not kept stickied though. Pretty sure the wiki also keeps track of changes from version to version. As far as overbudget research goes, it seems to me that trying to boost your research increases the odds of this happening, although I could be wrong.
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| # ? Mar 22, 2009 19:29 |
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Anyone have any basic tactical lessons for me? When ever the AI just close combat rushes me it always turns into a disasterous clusterfuck with me as the loser.
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| # ? Mar 22, 2009 19:30 |
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Roumba posted:Anyone have any basic tactical lessons for me? When ever the AI just close combat rushes me it always turns into a disasterous clusterfuck with me as the loser. It depends largely what type of ships you have and what weapons you've got. The AI is going to close with you to engage pretty much no matter what.
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| # ? Mar 22, 2009 19:36 |
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Roumba posted:Anyone have any basic tactical lessons for me? When ever the AI just close combat rushes me it always turns into a disasterous clusterfuck with me as the loser. Bring a bunch of tankers along and arrange your ships in the fleet manager so that the enemy ships close on the tankers first and destroy themselves in a massive fireball :coolbert:
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| # ? Mar 22, 2009 19:41 |
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Underwhelmed posted:This is exactly what I like (sans the lack of colony MM, some is good) I wish I could take this game's combat, and weapons/ship tech and stick it into Galactic civs 2. Yea the non-interactive combat was one of the weak spots of Gal Civ 2.
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| # ? Mar 22, 2009 20:30 |
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Roumba posted:Anyone have any basic tactical lessons for me? When ever the AI just close combat rushes me it always turns into a disasterous clusterfuck with me as the loser. For instance, Targas tend to have fragile engine sections (so do Terrans if I remember rightly). Liir cruisers often have a horribly powerful energy weapon mounted on top of their cruisers, which is a good target to concentrate fire on. Ships are destroyed when they lose any two sections. Also, just because you select one target (or even a point on that target) does not mean your ships will ignore other targets. Generally, your ships will always fire at any target that comes into the range and firing arc of any turret, but they will give preference to the one you picked. Weapon strategies will vary from game to game, since your tech tree (and those of your opponents) are slightly randomized each game. Missiles can be a good early strategy, as they are decently powerful and have a ton of upgrades (and unlike new weapons, warhead upgrades should apply retroactively to existing missile ships). Missiles are also incredibly long ranged and can ignore firing arcs; rear mounted missiles will fire and turn around to attack ships in front of you. Missiles can be nullified by strong point defence or other rapid-fire high accuracy weapons. Strong point defence is rare in the early game, but can get quite strong later on. If you want to continue using missiles in the late game, you need to mount a lot of them to overwhelm the defenses. Mines are not something to base your fleet on, but they can be useful if you are going a missle-heavy route since the can make thigns more difficult for enemies to close the distance to you. Lasers are not a strong weapon in the early game, but they can lead to very powerful energy weapons later on. This is one of the most random parts of the tech tree though, so it can be quite unpredictable. I like particle beams, which are large turrets with a low rate of fire but never miss, and they are perfect for stripping turrets off of a target. Mass drivers are a little more powerful than lasers and a little slower (and less accurate). They have the advantage of actually pushing enemy ships around though, particularly when they are targetted at ships a size class smaller than the weapon (medium turrets will push frigates around like toys, for example).
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| # ? Mar 22, 2009 20:44 |
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Another fun thing to know is that if you need a ship to fire on another ship with a weapon that is in the wrong firing arc, which is common with ships that have more guns on the broadsides than up front, you can make your selected ship do a barrel roll with the [ and ] keys!
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| # ? Mar 22, 2009 20:56 |
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Probably the most original idea in the game is trying to make different unique movement types for the different races. This alone leads to a different pace throughout the game. Of the Hiver gate system is pretty much the annoying one to fight against long run even though it takes time to set-up.
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| # ? Mar 23, 2009 03:28 |
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More newbie questions! If race comes into play for these I'll take the Morrigi answer. 1. How aggressively should I expand? Should I claim every planet I see, even if it has a high climate hazard? 2. How rapidly and or large should my military be? Should I upgrade weapons as soon as I get them or wait after several to scrape and upgrade ships? 3. I keep getting messages I need more freighters to maximize trade routes, but no matter how many i make it still keeps giving me the message. 4. I can't build any stations. I researched what I needed and can desgin them, but no option to build.
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| # ? Mar 23, 2009 04:22 |
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Mr. Dragoon posted:More newbie questions! If race comes into play for these I'll take the Morrigi answer. Mr. Dragoon posted:2. How rapidly and or large should my military be? Should I upgrade weapons as soon as I get them or wait after several to scrape and upgrade ships? Mr. Dragoon posted:3. I keep getting messages I need more freighters to maximize trade routes, but no matter how many i make it still keeps giving me the message. Mr. Dragoon posted:4. I can't build any stations. I researched what I needed and can desgin them, but no option to build.
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| # ? Mar 23, 2009 04:43 |
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Is the full collection available for direct download purchase anywhere? I can only find the original.
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| # ? Mar 23, 2009 04:44 |
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Hot Bard posted:Is the full collection available for direct download purchase anywhere? I can only find the original.
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| # ? Mar 23, 2009 04:49 |
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Nalin posted:Yes. Gamersgate has all of them. If you buy all three, it comes out to $45. And the consensus on Gamersgate as far as a shop is? Compared to say like Steam?
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| # ? Mar 23, 2009 13:41 |
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Underwhelmed posted:And the consensus on Gamersgate as far as a shop is? Compared to say like Steam? Good. As bare-bones as you can get, but that's ideal for me. You literally just download your stuff directly off the 'my games' page, and that's it. Generally less DRM than Steam, too. It's a lot like Impulse, minus the launcher app. It just tries to be a shop and nothing else. They were experimenting with an Impulse/Steam style launch/download platform a while back, but decided against it and went for a direct download system, which I think was a good call.
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| # ? Mar 23, 2009 13:47 |
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