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In the biz, post production refers to work done after, wait for it, production finishes. Production can be a film shoot, a TV set, or a band recording in the studio. Post typically entails non-linear editing (NLE) for video and audio, graphics, titles, compositing, and color grading among other things. This thread is for the discussion of different technologies, media, and workflows used in the completion of nearly every film, TV show, and album you enjoy on a daily basis. Since this is SH/SC, I would like to focus more on the hardware and software involved rather than the creative aspects, but all comments are welcome. Editing rigs are typically high end workstation class machines with a boatload of ram and storage space, especially when dealing with HD. Fun fact: The Dark Knight was cut on Apple G4's using Avid Meridien systems from 6 years ago, most likely on 10.2 Jaguar. About me: I am an AV Systems Engineer at a major US university responsible for about 45 post production machines using FCP, Avid, Pro Tools, and Adobe Master Collection. I am also responsible for the screening classrooms and auditoriums where a lot of automation hardware (Crestron and AMX) is used. Lastly, I am the Assistant Chief Operator of our student run radio station, http://www.wnur.org/ which means I am legally responsible when the FCC comes knocking, which in all honestly scares me shitless sometimes. The tools of the trade (not comprehensive): Professional
mayodreams fucked around with this message at Jun 3, 2010 around 19:38 |
| # ? Apr 9, 2009 19:06 |
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| # ? May 20, 2013 00:23 |
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Great idea for a thread. At my workplace (Also a higher education institution) we are just getting into HD. I'm not so much a post-production guy as a systems guy. Anyway, we shoot in DVCPro HD (panasonic) 1080p60, injest the footage to our Xsan and edit with Final Cut Studio 2. Currently we've been editing in HD and compress the footage out to SD for DVD. We just recently got a couple of Blu-ray burners and are looking into ways of producing blu-ray movies. Does anyone have any experience with this workflow on a Mac? I've read that the only blu-ray capable authoring software is Adobe Encore CS4 (included w/ Premier). What would this workflow look like? Shoot HD > Injest footage > Edit in FCP > Output quicktime > create menus in Encore > Author Blu-ray disc with Toast 9? something like that?
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| # ? Apr 9, 2009 21:13 |
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keldegar posted:Great idea for a thread. At my workplace (Also a higher education institution) we are just getting into HD. I'm not so much a post-production guy as a systems guy. Anyway, we shoot in DVCPro HD (panasonic) 1080p60, injest the footage to our Xsan and edit with Final Cut Studio 2. Currently we've been editing in HD and compress the footage out to SD for DVD. We just recently got a couple of Blu-ray burners and are looking into ways of producing blu-ray movies. I just did a lot of work on Blu-Ray output and the short answer is that it's just not ready yet if you are doing dropframe / 24p. We have a VERY similar workflow to yours, and are a Panasonic shop too. Since you are shooting 1080p60, you may have better luck. Our students are shooting 720p24 which made the Blu-Ray conversion very troublesome. I was able to take a 720p60 DVCPRO HD tape out of the Varicam and put it directly in toast 9 and burn a blu-ray though. I was able to play it back on a PS3 without issue. Btw, the PS3 is great for playback. We have one in our auditorium because you can burn a DVD or put m4v files on a flash drive and they just playback without hassle. There is a bit of a workaround to get it to work, but I think its worthwhile and the faculty and students think so too. So far, the workflow is HVX -> Firestore -> import to FCP -> Output h264 in Compressor -> Open in MPEGStream Clip and save as generic h264 -> Playback. Varicam -> Pansonic Deck -> Aja Kona/IOHD -> ^ I force a ProRes workflow, and that is the reason you have to run it through MPEGStream Clip. ProRes is really great.
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| # ? Apr 9, 2009 21:22 |
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mayodreams posted:Btw, the PS3 is great for playback. We have one in our auditorium because you can burn a DVD or put m4v files on a flash drive and they just playback without hassle. There is a bit of a workaround to get it to work, but I think its worthwhile and the faculty and students think so too. So far, the workflow is Yeah we got our "blu-ray player" (we sent it out to bid!) on a federal grant. That was pretty funny having shops call us saying "This blu-ray player, you know it's a PS3 right?" mayodreams posted:HVX -> Firestore -> import to FCP -> Output h264 in Compressor -> Open in MPEGStream Clip and save as generic h264 -> Playback. You have a panasonic deck? Isn't that like $50,000  So you don't recommend authoring menus and the like with Encore? We are used to using DVD Studio Pro, Toast 9's options are pretty terrible.
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| # ? Apr 9, 2009 21:39 |
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keldegar posted:Yeah we got our "blu-ray player" (we sent it out to bid!) on a federal grant. That was pretty funny having shops call us saying "This blu-ray player, you know it's a PS3 right?" We have 3 AJ-HD1400 decks. Panasonic is very nice to us and we got a heavy discount on them that came out to be around half of the retail of $35k. We have too many students to deal with P2 card nightmares, so we are sticking to tape for now. Encore only does high bitrate MPEG2 from what I remember. I was only looking for playback, not looking nice. Toast's menus are absolutely horrible, but they support custom backgrounds in .psd, so I just made a black background at 1280x720 and helped make it tolerable. That is awesome you got a PS3 on a grant. I use parental controls to lock ours down so much that you can't even play an 'E' game or use the browser. However, I can waltz in and play RockBand all I want on a 16' screen. 
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| # ? Apr 9, 2009 21:56 |
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mayodreams posted:Encore only does high bitrate MPEG2 from what I remember. I was only looking for playback, not looking nice. Toast's menus are absolutely horrible, but they support custom backgrounds in .psd, so I just made a black background at 1280x720 and helped make it tolerable. Good to know. I guess since we already bought Premier and Encore (edu price is very cheap) I'll play around with it. We also have Toast 9. Ultimately our goal would be to produce a final product (not just for playback) in Blu-ray so we would want to be able to create menus that look and feel like a real Blu-ray. Thanks for the information thus far!
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| # ? Apr 9, 2009 23:39 |
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mayodreams posted:-> Firestore Sounds great! But, I'm really a hobbyist, individual, and can't afford the $10,000 camera I want. It doesn't quite make sense to me, but I think I've read the Firestore only works with certain cameras; true? How about hard disk format? FAT32 must be out due to file size limitations; how does it work with HFS+ or NTFS, any concerns with those? How durable are they? Has anyone heard of any reliability issues, be they with the controller or disk? Is it easy/possible to replace the disk yourself, and if so, does it use a standard or proprietary interface? Does the firmware place any restrictions, or could I simply buy a 40GB unit and slap any old 100 or 500GB drive in it?
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| # ? Apr 10, 2009 13:59 |
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hyperborean posted:Firestore Stuff We have had good luck with them. We have the FS-100 http://www.videonics.com/solutions/catalog.asp?id=150 which has the 100gb drive. I am not sure about replacing hard drives, but even in HD, 100gb is a LOT. Specs for the 250gb version is 11 hours of 720p24PN and 4.5 hours in 720p/1080i. The only real issue we see are dropped drives and broken firewire jacks, but that is namely because students are careless. The FS mounts to the top of the camera to make sure it is secure. Since we are a Mac shop, the drive is formatted HFS+ and the recorded media is in QT format. I hope this helps!
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| # ? Apr 10, 2009 14:58 |
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We use Canon XH A1s recording to tape, and sometimes capturing makes me want to kill myself. We don't have HDV decks (too poor) so we have to capture from the cameras - Final Cut Pro HATES Canon HDV cameras. I can barely ever get it to work, so much so that it's not worth the hassle most of the time. The "solution" I've found still has its problems (occasional audio desynch) but is still infinitely better than anything else that I know exists: Capture HDV to M2T with Capture Magic HD: http://www.bigmugsoftware.com/capture/ Rewrap M2T to Quicktime with ClipWrap: http://www.clipwrap.com/ Shove into Final Cut, pray. I welcome any better solution!
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| # ? Apr 11, 2009 16:25 |
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I have to echo the Firestore love. The production department I work for has had great results using the Firestore in our DVCAM workflow. We often connect it to a recording DV deck on our multi-camera field shoots and then hand it over to playback so they can transcode and air the program.
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| # ? Apr 11, 2009 16:47 |
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Good thread idea! Just chiming in to say I can also offer any advice on post work. I do compositing and work with Shake. But have also dealt with a lot of workflows and pipelines, everything from DV, to HD (over 4 years of HD dealings now), to 2k/4k. I also know a bunch of other software and fun things. I have also worked on 2 RED One camera projects and have gotten familiar with those workflows.
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| # ? Apr 11, 2009 18:38 |
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mayodreams posted:Professional Premiere  Can I be the first to say that I hate After Effect's OpenGL implementation?
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| # ? Apr 11, 2009 20:01 |
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Where can a guy get a start on Adobe After Effects? I have access to a brand spankin' new Mac Pro lab at school and would like to take advantage of it while I can. What are some of the most common things expected of your average post production team and what is the best way for a college student to get involved?
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| # ? Apr 13, 2009 01:37 |
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FidgetWidget posted:Where can a guy get a start on Adobe After Effects? I have access to a brand spankin' new Mac Pro lab at school and would like to take advantage of it while I can. What are some of the most common things expected of your average post production team and what is the best way for a college student to get involved? Just check out some tutorials. Unfortunately AE is a pretty tough app to get the hang of at the start. Gnomon and Digital-Tutors should have a bunch of stuff.. or whatever random videos Google can introduce you to. As far as what to learn at first: Layers and Keyframes... thats pretty much the heart of AE. Layers work just like they do in Photoshop, if you know PS it will help you with AE immensely. Keyframes are taking all the things you can do in PS and applying them over time. You either are familiar with this concept, or it can be tricky to learn at first. You need to be able to not only apply effects and animations over time, but know how interpolation will effect animations. This is VERY important for rotoscoping work (masking over time). As far as what you'd be expected to do as someone walking in saying they know AE (or similar): This would probably be roto work, text animations, adding basic elements to videos (lower 3rds, titles, effects/color correction). It can also be more technical issues. Things like add/remove 3:2 pulldown, format conversion, resizing, combing multiple videos into 1, etc. This is for AE specifically, in general for post production you might be expected to start almost anywhere... even getting coffee. The best way to start out in general is to learn as much as you can on your own, and try to find some internships (preferably paid ones of course). Whatever gets you in the door to learn more. It also helps to know what specialty areas are your favorite... animation, compositing, 3d, etc. This can help you focus on what specific area to be involved with more. Usually specific people are assigned to each stage. Sometimes its the sole purpose of people/departments. For instance I do compositing, I rarely touch motion graphics (AE's bread and butter) or 3d, almost no design work at all. Though I have knowledge of it all and can do some of it if needed. Sometimes an entire team of people are hired for 1 thing, such as a team of compositors/roto artists. Other times its a well oiled pipeline where its an assembly line, each person doing something different along the way. CombatCupcake fucked around with this message at Apr 13, 2009 around 03:01 |
| # ? Apr 13, 2009 02:54 |
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mayodreams posted:Fun fact: The Dark Knight was cut on Apple G4's using Avid Meridien systems from 6 years ago, most likely on 10.2 Jaguar. I realize that studios don't upgrade too often but how could a G4 even handle frames at that resolution? 
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| # ? Apr 13, 2009 13:49 |
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deviant. posted:I realize that studios don't upgrade too often but how could a G4 even handle frames at that resolution? Now, now. They have Altivec and G4 cpu's are available with up to 2ghz. But I guess the answer is with a lot of patience.
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| # ? Apr 13, 2009 16:03 |
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I'd assume that they were doing nonlinear editing at a lower, more managable resolution, and pass the EDL to someone else? Like, isn't that how it's done everywhere?
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| # ? Apr 13, 2009 16:08 |
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Riso posted:Now, now. They have Altivec and G4 cpu's are available with up to 2ghz. But I guess the answer is with a lot of patience. No, the correct answer is that RISC is 1000 times faster than x86
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| # ? Apr 13, 2009 17:02 |
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deviant. posted:I realize that studios don't upgrade too often but how could a G4 even handle frames at that resolution? The Meridien board set is 3 PCI cards and a daughter board, 2 of which are full length and take up the whole slot front to back of the G4. ALL of the video is handled on these boards, and the G4 acts as a host as far as video processing goes. I can't remember the specific details, but TDK was edited in standard def at probably 5:1 ratio to full resolution SD. I read about it in an Issue of Videography last fall. I should have also noted that I am an Avid Certified Support Representative (ACSR) for Mac too. mayodreams fucked around with this message at Apr 13, 2009 around 17:39 |
| # ? Apr 13, 2009 17:34 |
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So they just used something like a cue sheet from the low res version? Neat. fake edit: get crackin on 64 bit for pro tools you buttes
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| # ? Apr 13, 2009 17:49 |
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Yeah, I don't think anybody uses the actual video output of FCP/Avid for a movie shot on film destined for theatrical release.
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| # ? Apr 13, 2009 19:09 |
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Standard editing for anything over SD (HD/film/RED) is usually to offline edit on whatever system, FCP/Avid/etc. This is usually pretty low resolution footage, SD, DV, reference files (such as from RED One), what have you. Nearly any machine can edit this footage. Once the picture is locked the EDL is updated with the full res footage. Having a proper workflow is absolutely critical for this. This is known as online editing. Where everything is put together ready to conform for final mastering. VFX files are added, sound, color correction is done (sometimes within FCP, Apple Color, DaVinci for film usually, etc). Usually need a pretty good system for this with all the footage on a fibrechannel raid.
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| # ? Apr 13, 2009 19:50 |
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I know this doesn't count as post production, but I figure this is as good enough of a place to ask. I'm capturing HD feeds (most 1280x720) on a Hauppauge HD-PVR. The captured files are in the .ts format. The best way I found for converting these huge files down to 720p MKV was this rather long process. I use pretty much the same process for encoding to Divx/Xvid files. Is there a tool out there I'm not aware of that would streamline the majority of this process? I think it's kind of ridiculous that I have to use 3+ programs to simply re-encode a .ts file.
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| # ? Apr 14, 2009 01:45 |
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That entire process is doable within MeGUI -- index the ts via DG Indexer -> DGA Creator and it'll automatically create the avs script when the indexing finishes. There's also no real need for VirtualDub with what you're doing -- the preview window when you use the AVS Cutter is there to find the start/end frames. Incidentally, the last two parameters to Crop() are negative because it was originally implemented as Crop(crop_left, crop_top, height, width) and by the time they realized this was a terrible idea it was too late to change it. Luckily width and height obviously can't be negative, so they went with the ugly workaround of negative numbers indicating that it's crop_right and crop_bottom rather than width and height.
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| # ? Apr 14, 2009 04:10 |
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What's the consensus on Sony Vegas Pro versus Adobe Premiere? I've just purchased a Canon HF20 (and canon HF11 but only to do a comparison between them) which captures in AVCHD, 60i. I'm still trying to learn about 24p, 30p, and 60i along with the advantages/disadvantages to each of them. (Actually the Canon camcorders embed 24p and 30p inside 60i which makes it much more complicated...)
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| # ? Apr 14, 2009 11:51 |
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Vinlaen posted:What's the consensus on Sony Vegas Pro versus Adobe Premiere? I hear a lot of good about Vegas and Premiere. I talked to a guy at NAB last year that did a Cartoon Network show (non Adult Swim) that exclusively used Vegas for the post workflow. I have never used it though, so I really can't give you any hands on experience. I have dabbled with Premiere, but I am not terribly familiar with it, but we recommend it to faculty and staff who use Windows and need some NLE software. I find it interesting that the HF20 says its "FULL HD" but does not record at 60p, which would be required for the "FULL HD" qualification, which is 1080p60. Personally, I would prefer to stick to a progressive image and not deal with interlacing, but that leaves you with 30p or 24p, and depending on how you want to finish your project (Blu-Ray, DVD, etc), 24p can really complicate things.
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| # ? Apr 14, 2009 12:46 |
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What about professional Post Production for Audio? I know ProTools is used exclusively in studios but production departments for radio all seem to use Adobe Audition / CoolEditPro. I'm just a student right now (graduating in a month) and I was wondering about peoples experiences in a professional recording studio.
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| # ? Apr 14, 2009 13:15 |
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Video production student here with experience in Final Cut Pro 2 and some Avid Media Composer. I'm not too much of a post-production guy (yet, i'm taking a Post-Production Class and a Digital Production Class), so I think I will be keeping my eye on this thread. I will echo what is said earlier: P2 cards are a pain in the rear end, especially when you only have the 8gig ones (20 minutes of footage). It sucks having to have a laptop and an external drive on location to dump your footage every so often...doesn't make you very mobile. To get the footage off, we were taught to use Log and Transfer in Final Cut Pro 2 and be VERY VERY sure you have transferred everything and backed it up before deleting the data off the P2 card. We lost some (thankfully insignificant) footage due to this blunder. On the technical side, the HD stations are G4s with dual monitor setups, running 10.4 I do believe. Intermediate Video shoots on HVXs at 720p24PN, which makes for oh so fun tape conversions for final screenings 
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| # ? Apr 14, 2009 13:23 |
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FlyingCheese posted:What about professional Post Production for Audio? I know ProTools is used exclusively in studios but production departments for radio all seem to use Adobe Audition / CoolEditPro. I'm just a student right now (graduating in a month) and I was wondering about peoples experiences in a professional recording studio. Our radio station uses Audition too. We have a sound class being taught with Logic this quarter too, as that is popular for mixing as well.
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| # ? Apr 14, 2009 14:00 |
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FlyingCheese posted:What about professional Post Production for Audio? I know ProTools is used exclusively in studios but production departments for radio all seem to use Adobe Audition / CoolEditPro. I'm just a student right now (graduating in a month) and I was wondering about peoples experiences in a professional recording studio. It seems like PT is gaining ground in post though. They've taken over music, so where else can you go? The last two versions of PT have featured increasing amounts of focus on video and MIDI. I can't speak for Audition but I know you can do some amazing post just in Pro Tools LE, never mind HD.
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| # ? Apr 14, 2009 14:19 |
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deviant. posted:It seems like PT is gaining ground in post though. They've taken over music, so where else can you go? Since Digidesign is owned by Avid, there is a lot of integration of their products with Pro Tools. PT doesn't play as nicely with Final Cut, and that is obviously not by accident.
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| # ? Apr 14, 2009 14:31 |
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mayodreams posted:Since Digidesign is owned by Avid, there is a lot of integration of their products with Pro Tools. PT doesn't play as nicely with Final Cut, and that is obviously not by accident. True enough. Whenever I've had to that it's usually easiest just to export a big WAV from PT and send that to FC. It's not too horrible as long as you plan ahead.
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| # ? Apr 14, 2009 14:38 |
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deviant. posted:It seems like PT is gaining ground in post though. They've taken over music, so where else can you go? That's true. I really need to get into PT more. I have the basics down but I don't know much about the more advanced stuff. I know Audition (1.5-2.0) like the back of my hand though. mayodreams posted:Our radio station uses Audition too. We have a sound class being taught with Logic this quarter too, as that is popular for mixing as well. Also true. There are so many different mixing choices. For those already in the field, is it better to learn 1 program really well or lots of different ones but not as in depth? Ideally of course the answer would be lots of different ones in depth but it's a tad unrealistic, as you tend to favor one over another. deviant. posted:True enough. Whenever I've had to that it's usually easiest just to export a big WAV from PT and send that to FC. It's not too horrible as long as you plan ahead. I've had horrible de-syncing issues doing that. I've found it's much better to chop up the big WAV into segments. FlyingCheese fucked around with this message at Apr 14, 2009 around 15:50 |
| # ? Apr 14, 2009 15:44 |
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FlyingCheese posted:I've had horrible de-syncing issues doing that. I've found it's much better to chop up the big WAV into segments. How big are we talking? I've exported files of more than half an hour in length with no issues. You need to be sure your feet/frames rate is set correctly in PT or the whole thing goes to hell very quickly. I also like PTLE's stock plugins. Sure, you can do a lot better if you're willing to plop down a lot of cash but with a little creativity you can do a lot with the basic stuff. Just avoid D-Verb like the plague.
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| # ? Apr 14, 2009 16:24 |
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I heard rumors that Final Cut Studio 3 is going to be announced/released around NAB. Anyone want to stab wildly in the dark about possible new features? Preferably awesome new features.
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| # ? Apr 14, 2009 17:26 |
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Pzykotic posted:I heard rumors that Final Cut Studio 3 is going to be announced/released around NAB. Anyone want to stab wildly in the dark about possible new features? Preferably awesome new features. I am willing to bet a 'feature' is that it requires an Intel Mac. I have heard it requires Snow Leopard too because it runs off of QuickTime X.
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| # ? Apr 14, 2009 18:39 |
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mayodreams posted:I hear a lot of good about Vegas and Premiere. I talked to a guy at NAB last year that did a Cartoon Network show (non Adult Swim) that exclusively used Vegas for the post workflow. I have never used it though, so I really can't give you any hands on experience. I have dabbled with Premiere, but I am not terribly familiar with it, but we recommend it to faculty and staff who use Windows and need some NLE software. Maybe I'm just a dumb amateur who's never worked on something destined for Blu-Ray, but how does 24p complicate things?
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| # ? Apr 14, 2009 20:12 |
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Sony Vegas was a pretty cool app a few years ago, but once Adobe updated Premiere (read: cloned Final Cut Pro)... Vegas is just a cheap alternative. Premiere is pretty close to FCP in terms of features and interface, and its a lot easier to work with than any Avid (I am not a fan of Avids). So for PC Premiere is the way to go. As for the 'full' HD.... all that stuff really depends what you're going to do with your footage. If you dont need 1080p60, dont use it, if you do, awesome. Never bother with interlaced unless you are specifically going to broadcast, and even then you should master in progressive. \/\/-----Does DVD Studio Pro do Blu-ray? I have yet to deal with making Blu-Rays. CombatCupcake fucked around with this message at Apr 15, 2009 around 00:16 |
| # ? Apr 14, 2009 20:27 |
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Doc Block posted:Maybe I'm just a dumb amateur who's never worked on something destined for Blu-Ray, but how does 24p complicate things? The problem I had with 24p is that Toast converted everything to a different frame rate, so it was really jerky and didn't play back properly. I will say I was using a projector though, because a lot of TV's don't support 24p playback, even though its part of the Blu-Ray spec. I have taken 720p59.94 footage right off a DVCPRO HD tape and burned a Blu-Ray at 720p and it looked and worked great though. So in the end, it depends on the tools you are using to create the BD image, which on a Mac, kinda suck.
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| # ? Apr 14, 2009 23:41 |
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| # ? May 20, 2013 00:23 |
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CombatCupcake posted:\/\/-----Does DVD Studio Pro do Blu-ray? I have yet to deal with making Blu-Rays. DVD Studio Pro only Does HD-DVD in the current version. I am hopeful about BD support in FCS 3, but I am not holding my breath after Uncle Steve's comment about Blu-ray. Putting BD support in DVD Studio Pro would basically force them to put it in the OS too because it would be silly to be able to burn it but not play it back to test it.
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| # ? Apr 18, 2009 13:55 |
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