Ask me about being a Traffic Engineer!

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Ask me about being a Traffic Engineer!

Zero One: Dec 30, 2004; HAIL TO THE VICTORS!

Cichlidae posted:

It's not just your imagination. Putting a message on a VMS will cause people to slow down significantly to read it all. We try to make our messages as short as possible, like so:

PROBLEM
LOCATION
RECOMMENDATION

So, for example, you should see something like this.

RIGHT LANES CLOSED
I-84 EXIT 54
USE I-291

We need to convey as much information as possible in as few words as possible. In this example, "CLOSED" implies that there's planned construction going on. If it were due to an accident, the sign should say, "BLOCKED." The I-84 on the second line is only necessary if you're on another route (I-91 in this case.) The exit number is the first exit PAST the closure in question, since we don't want people passing exit 53 and saying, "Oh, the sign was wrong!"

Unfortunately, that's still a lot to take in in five seconds. It gets even worse when there are multiple frames. One of the most important rules in sign writing is that there should be two frames, max. If you have too much information for two frames, use two signs or cut out anything unnecessary.

Unfortunately, not everyone follows this rule, or they flash the frames too fast or too slow, or they use ambiguous abbreviations like "rt" and "lt." That takes even more of the driver's attention. Add all this together, and you end up with people slowing down by 20 mph to read the sign, and inevitably, this leads to congestion and rear-ends.

It gets super dangerous at night, because the signs don't slowly light up; they flash on all at once. When you're alone on an unlit road and suddenly a hundred yellow lights shine in your face from above, there's a very good chance you'll freak out and crash. We have cameras mounted above some VMS for this very reason. We can see how people react to them, and often we need to shut off or choose not to display a helpful message if we think it could cause a dangerous situation.

Why don't you guys do what we do in Michigan and keep the signs on all the time?

If there isn't some kind of traffic jam or construction, the signs usually have a message about fastening your seatbelt, or not driving drunk. It helps drivers get used to the sign and not surprised when it's on and trying to tell you something. ESPECIALLY if you guys are worried about suddenly blinding someone at night. A lot easier than installing a camera and looking for a break in the traffic, thats for sure.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2009 08:11

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# ¿ Apr 26, 2024 06:20

Zero One: Dec 30, 2004; HAIL TO THE VICTORS!

I thought I would add some content of my own to your thread (hope you don't mind).

Presenting: Highways of the Motor City

As you may imagine, Metro Detroit's transportation infrastructure is dominated by the car. The Big Three made sure that mass transit was kept out of the area.

Detroit is home to America's first freeway. The Davidson (most Michigan highways are named and referred to as such instead of my their number) was planned in 1941 as a replacement for Davison Avenue and opened on November 25, 1942. Today, at 5.5 miles long, the highway connects M-10 (The Lodge) and I-75. Davidson turns into an avenue west of M-10 and connects with I-96.

M-10 (known as The Lodge) connects Downtown Detroit with the Oakland County community of Southfield. After it passes the interchange with I-696 and Telegraph Rd. (US 24) it becomes known as Northwestern Highway and is a two lane divided avenue. Fun fact, M-10 was supposed to continue west after it's current end at Orchard Lake road and meet up with a proposed northern extension of I-275. Due to the number of lakes and wetlands in Oakland County and high income homeowners, those projects were both canceled and the OC doesn't really have much in the way of highways north of Farmington Hills and east of Troy. When they did work on Northwestern Hwy a few years ago, the DOT installed unusually big shoulders (you can see them if you zoom in on Google Maps). The reason? They are actually lanes in disguise. As part of the "NIMBY" attitude in Oakland County to highways, no roads over 2 lanes are permitted. However, the engineers felt that M-10 might one day need the extra lanes and built them as shoulders. If the laws are ever changed, all they did to do is change the stripes!

The interchange where M-10 and I-696 meet is one of the more infamous in Metro Detroit. Check it out. It has undergone a lot of work recently, but there are still many problems. One notable issues: The ramps from Southbound Telegraph road to North M-10 has a problem of people using that ramp and then cutting across 5 lanes of traffic to get on West I-696. DESPITE the same ramp offering the ability to get on 696 without making a suicide attempt. To try and keep people from taking the M-10 exit to try and get to 696, the state first put up two big signs that say "ACCESS TO I-696 PROHIBITED" (even though the signs are also next to real 696 ramp). That didn't convince people, I guess, because the state then put up barriers in the merge zone to physically stop people from changing lanes right away. Unfortunately.... the barrier doesn't go past the ramp onto 696 from M-10 and thus people still attempt to make the maneuver to this day.

That interchange also has a lot of locations of weaving. Especially on the ramp from Northbound Telegraph to M-10 North. The curve requires cars on the ramp to slow down to 20, but they still try to enter traffic going 70 or more as soon as they get on the freeway.

Finally, the most massive interchange you have ever seen. It features the termination point of two interstates, the pass through of a third, a Michigan highway, and a surface street for good measure. Actually, I think it is pretty well designed despite its massive size. There are only a few sections where weaving happens and only one where it is really bad. Like I said earlier, I-275 was supposed to continue north from here where M-5 currently is now. It would extend through Oakland County and meet back up with I-75 in the Clarkston area.

# ¿ Jan 19, 2010 04:54

Zero One: Dec 30, 2004; HAIL TO THE VICTORS!

But look at all the "wasted" space that the 96/696/275 interchange has. I'll admit those examples are very complicated, but they are also very compact.

# ¿ Jan 19, 2010 06:15

Zero One: Dec 30, 2004; HAIL TO THE VICTORS!

Cichlidae posted:

Not quite, we have some built in the 1930s.

I've been lied to my whole life!

Actually, I guess it is the "first urban, depressed freeway in the United States."

# ¿ Jan 20, 2010 00:29

Zero One: Dec 30, 2004; HAIL TO THE VICTORS!

Cichlidae posted:

I've spent many an hour diagramming and pondering that interchange myself. Lots and lots of left exits and weaving.

Are you pondering what I'm pondering?

No really... what are you thinking about it? It sucks so bad right now.

# ¿ Jan 24, 2010 04:40

Zero One: Dec 30, 2004; HAIL TO THE VICTORS!

I don't quite understand what you are trying to do with the Telegraph overpass and it's ramps.

It's definitely a lot better, though. Especially since you would no longer be required to use surface streets to get from M-10 South to 696 West, 696 East to M-10 North, or M-10 North to 696 East.

# ¿ Jan 24, 2010 20:38

Zero One: Dec 30, 2004; HAIL TO THE VICTORS!

Cichlidae posted:

Try that on for size. Much reduced weaving, added lanes, simpler interchanges, and plenty of land opened up for development to offset the costs.

Oh man... I just noticed that you have now made it REQUIRED to cross four lanes of traffic to get from Telegraph South to 696 West.

:gonk:

# ¿ Jan 28, 2010 05:30

Zero One: Dec 30, 2004; HAIL TO THE VICTORS!

I thought you might be interested in this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/12/nyregion/12broadway.html

quote:

New York�s ambitious experiment that closed parts of Broadway to vehicles last spring will become permanent, city officials said on Thursday, even though it fell short of achieving its chief objective: improving traffic flow.

Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg said that a reduction in injuries to pedestrians and motorists, along with a warm response from merchants and tourists, had persuaded him to retain the eight-month-old pedestrian plazas in Times Square and Herald Square, a marquee initiative for his administration that re-engineered the Midtown street grid.

But traffic speeds slowed on many crosstown streets, as well as on Eighth and Ninth Avenues, according to data from more than 5,700 test runs conducted by the Department of Transportation.

There were some improvements, but they mostly missed the city�s targets. Traffic along Seventh Avenue, for example, moved 4 percent faster, but the city had hoped for a gain of up to 17 percent.

Mr. Bloomberg, however, declared the project a success, emphasizing the improvements to pedestrian safety and foot traffic, along with the aesthetic enhancement to an area once associated with exhaust and gridlock.

�It�s fair to say that this is one of those things that has succeeded,� the mayor said. �Not in every way we thought, but in some ways we hadn�t thought about. Not as much in certain areas, but more than we expected in others.�

The change, which banned vehicles on Broadway from 47th to 42nd Streets and from 35th to 33rd Streets, was pitched last February as an innovative way to fight congestion. It quickly became a fascination for tourists and New Yorkers alike, drawn to the curious sight of a pedestrian mall, complete with picnic tables and folding chairs, under the neon lights.

# ¿ Feb 13, 2010 05:20

Zero One: Dec 30, 2004; HAIL TO THE VICTORS!

I just heard about this the other day:

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/03/report-many-detroit-area-speed-limits-are-set-at-illegally-lo/

quote:

It's probably a safe bet that many Autoblog readers find speed limits very annoying in general. To that end, it turns out that a significant number of limits in Michigan may, in fact, be illegal. Researchers have known for years that when it comes to safety, speed limits should be set at the 85th percentile traffic flow speed. The reality is that most drivers move along at what they consider to be a safe speed for the conditions regardless of the posted limit. To minimize accidents, the limit should therefore be the speed at which 85 percent of the drivers are moving.

In 2006, the Michigan legislature passed a law requiring speed limits to be set based on such traffic studies. Despite that law, many municipalities have not conducted studies of their own and are maintaining artificially-low speed limits. In many cases this is being done to prop up speeding ticket revenues. Because of the law, drivers who feel the speed limits are too low have challenged their tickets and had them dismissed if no traffic study has been done. Even Lt. Gary Megge, head of the Michigan State Police Traffic Services Section, finds it "reprehensible" that communities are not following the law. Hopefully, publicizing this practice will get cities and towns to follow the law - you know, the same way they expect drivers to.

Good news for me, since I'm pretty sure a road I drive every day is limited well below the 85th.

# ¿ Jul 9, 2010 04:15

Zero One: Dec 30, 2004; HAIL TO THE VICTORS!

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&hq=&ll=42.458231,-83.218174&spn=0.016179,0.038581&t=h&z=15

Check out that interchange and think about it.

You can't:

Go from Eastbound to Northbound.
Go from Westbound to Southbound.
Go from Southbound to Westbound.
Go from Northbound to Eastbound.

Luckily I was always needing to drive in the directions that were available. The only reason I can figure they did that was a lack of space, but with all the curves and such it takes up a lot of space right now anyway.

# ¿ Jul 27, 2010 00:28

Zero One: Dec 30, 2004; HAIL TO THE VICTORS!

One thing I've noticed over the past few years is that during construction, instead of just putting up cones or barrels there will also be new paint lines added on the roads.

Now, I understand how this is a good thing from a safety standpoint. It is easier for drivers to know where the valid lanes.

However, one thing that really bugs me is that when they remove the temporary lines you can totally see where they were for YEARS after they had been used.

Is this something that bugs road designers too? It just ruins the pretty new pavement.

# ¿ Nov 6, 2010 02:28

Zero One: Dec 30, 2004; HAIL TO THE VICTORS!

Saw this today, thought this thread might be interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FemH4GhEqEs

# ¿ Dec 18, 2010 22:27

Zero One: Dec 30, 2004; HAIL TO THE VICTORS!

http://www.paradoxplaza.com/games/cities-in-motion

quote:

Choose between more than 30 different vehicles based on real-life models of buses, trams, water buses, helicopters, and subways, complete with an underground view

It sounds like trains and roads are not included. So you can build buses and trams on the roads, but can't design/redesign the streets yourself. And according to this: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?510529-Cities-in-Motion-A-Beta-Preview-AAR (which is very informative) the heavy rail is there for "flavor" and is not playable.

# ¿ Dec 18, 2010 23:00

Zero One: Dec 30, 2004; HAIL TO THE VICTORS!

Light rail in the Motor City has hit another roadblock.

quote:

A crucial dispute about the very nature of the proposed Woodward Avenue light-rail line in Detroit threatens to further delay or even block the project.

Should it be a speedy transit service to hurry people quickly to and from downtown? Or should it operate as a slower, perhaps friendlier, trolley-type line with frequent stops to aid business and tourism?

Mayor Dave Bing speaks confidently of the project, saying construction will begin next year.

But it is clear that unresolved differences about the design, route and funding of the project have slowed its progress. A line that backers once predicted would be up and running by now, at least in its downtown section, won't come on line now before 2016.

Matt Cullen, the chief executive of the M-1 group of private investors helping to bankroll the project, said Wednesday that more meetings must be held to iron out differences and resolve the remaining design and funding issues.

"A lot of work needs to be done, and I remain hopeful that when it is all done we are all on the train together," he said.

Norm White, director of the Detroit Department of Transportation and Bing's point man for the rail project, declined requests for an interview.

Megan Owens, executive director of Transportation Riders United, a nonprofit group that advocates for public transit, predicted that the disputes will be worked out and the project built. But she adds, "Until we're riding, it's never a 100% guarantee."

Light-rail project has many outstanding issues

Fundamental issues dividing city officials from business leaders and others staking millions of private dollars in building new light rail in Detroit must be ironed out soon if work is to begin next year, as Mayor Dave Bing hopes.

Among the questions:

� Whether the rail line will run down the middle of Woodward -- a design transit advocates say would be safer, faster, cheaper and more efficient -- or be built on the avenue's curb lanes, as the private backers of the proposed M-1 rail first envisioned to boost tourism and redevelopment.

� What route the line would travel through downtown. Private backers initially envisioned a line running straight up and down Woodward from Jefferson. But the Detroit Department of Transportation, which will operate the line, prefers a route that bypasses lower Woodward in favor of a loop around lower downtown to connect with the Rosa Parks Transit Center west of Woodward.

� How to pay for the long-term operation of the project. Ultimately, supporters say, a region-wide rail system, for which the Woodward line is seen as a first step, will require a regional tax.

Operating the line, as is the case with virtually all such lines elsewhere, would require a public subsidy.

And getting a state subsidy for the Detroit light-rail line would, in all likelihood, require putting control of the system into a regional transportation authority. That could spark resistance in Detroit to giving up control of a key piece of city infrastructure. At the same time, suburban voters may balk at approving a tax seen as largely benefiting the city.

Personally, knowing this city, I'd have to say that this project will never be built. At one point they proposed the light rail, and then the city/state didn't want to pay for it, so they suggested bus lanes. Then some of the rich business leaders did a cool thing and donated millions of dollars just for a private light rail system. Except you can't just build light rail down Woodward without getting the government involved again. And here we are...

# ¿ Apr 29, 2011 03:21

Zero One: Dec 30, 2004; HAIL TO THE VICTORS!

skaboomizzy posted:

Not really a question but more of a comment/anecdote:

I have a nephew that's about 11 and has been diagnosed with Asperger's. Pretty much his favorite thing to draw (as of a year ago) is major traffic intersections. Things like the PA Turnpike interchange with I-70 at Breezewood, which he's seen a bunch of times going back and forth from his home to see my parents (his grandparents) in PA. He will literally sit and draw all the lights, major signs, turn lanes; it's just really kind of... cool and weird at once.

So I guess you should just be glad that there are some young people very interested in traffic engineering as a possible career.

I did that at his age.

I even spent two years as a civil engineering major.

Now I work in finance.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2011 15:02

Zero One: Dec 30, 2004; HAIL TO THE VICTORS!

Your project looks like a big version of the 696, M-10, Telegraph interchange in Michigan:

http://g.co/maps/9pgd4

Zero One fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Jan 9, 2012

# ¿ Jan 9, 2012 04:27

Zero One: Dec 30, 2004; HAIL TO THE VICTORS!

Here in Orlando a stretch of I-4 through downtown (and maybe on other roads but gently caress if I'm taking the turnpike) has programmable speed limit signs. They are regular signs except for the number which is digital and can be changed.

Now I'm not sure if the speed changes to match the conditions or they just turn them down during rush hour but the signs usually go from 55 in off peak times to 30 during rush hour.

From what I understand from this thread, doing something like those signs is one of the worst things in terms of safety and efficiency. The back everyone up because some people go slow and cause more accidents because some people don't go slow.

Any opinion on how effective they are?

# ¿ Mar 2, 2012 06:00

Zero One: Dec 30, 2004; HAIL TO THE VICTORS!

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad posted:

e: I'm not sure if they're the right M. Ahmadinejads but whoever they are they're pretty prolific link

link

Sounds like he is talking about Michigan Lefts.

# ¿ Mar 28, 2012 23:24

Zero One: Dec 30, 2004; HAIL TO THE VICTORS!

What does it mean? :psyduck:

# ¿ May 14, 2012 04:23

Zero One: Dec 30, 2004; HAIL TO THE VICTORS!

Cichlidae posted:

Slight correction: I like blowing up bridges.

I also love the way LED streetlamps look: ribbon-thin and super modern.

HORRIBLE WORK POLICY UPDATE:

I know I'm big on saving lives and all that, but sometimes our health & safety unit goes overboard. I got an email this afternoon that says we're going to need special protective equipment from now on if we go into a signal cabinet, even if we're just looking over the flashing lights or changing phase timings. Note that signal cabinets have significantly better wiring and grounding than the circuit breakers in almost any house, and they're 120 VAC max.

So, what kind of safety equipment are we talking?

This arc flash suit (we're leasing them, so I won't get to attach my own cool decals) PLUS a retroreflective hard hat PLUS safety glasses underneath PLUS a type III retroreflective shirt PLUS heavy gloves PLUS insulated steel-toed boots.

It's going to be a lot of fun in Summer, especially if you're the third guy to wear it that day. You didn't think we'd each be getting our own, did you?

There is a silver lining, though: I am going to pull SO many pranks in that suit, like frantically waving at drivers from atop an overpass, and going to restaurants all dolled up like that.

Everyone is going to think you are the bomb squad. It will be amazing (and about a week before the cops tell your bosses to stop using them).

# ¿ May 16, 2012 03:40

Zero One: Dec 30, 2004; HAIL TO THE VICTORS!

Baronjutter posted:

Ok how do I handle this intersection? It's basically an angled T intersection. The road with the white lines will have bike lanes, while the divided avenue will just have a single travel lane and curb parking (and clearly enough safe room for bikes too). I'm a bit confused how to mark it all, where the stop lines should be, and how to handle the bike lanes. I should probably have the avenue have no parking near the intersection and have dedicated right/left turn lanes right?

You'll probably want some police barricades for that derailed train too. :v:

# ¿ Jul 23, 2012 02:03

Zero One: Dec 30, 2004; HAIL TO THE VICTORS!

Thought you guys would like this:

The history and future of highways... as seen in 1958 by Walt Disney:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0q_oP9TPD4

# ¿ Jul 30, 2013 01:49

Zero One: Dec 30, 2004; HAIL TO THE VICTORS!

The future section is the best. It gets some things right: suburbanization, standardized shipping containers, GPS/traffic maps, rear view cameras, and even automated cars. But other things are way out there: atomic cars, flying cars :argh:

, undersea highways, some crazy parking garages, and my favorite: putting trucks into ROCKETSHIPS!

# ¿ Jul 30, 2013 02:19

Zero One: Dec 30, 2004; HAIL TO THE VICTORS!

Hmmm yeah... but I still can't drive up the side of my building and park in the office.

grover posted:

Where's my solar-powered electro-suspension car?

And nuclear mountain melting machine?

# ¿ Jul 30, 2013 02:25

Zero One: Dec 30, 2004; HAIL TO THE VICTORS!

Cichlidae posted:

Oh my god, I'm so burnt out on Synchro right now.

I've spent the past 6 months doing almost nothing but intersection design, trying to squeeze the last 5% of performance out of the same handful of intersections in dozens of alternatives. They're all designed for the absolute minimum cross-section that won't back cars onto the freeway, but that's assuming that volumes won't increase by 2040, which is rapidly showing itself to be a false assumption. I took a look at the latest volumes this morning and, even with the Busway, they're still climbing, especially on weekends.

You urban designers will be happy to learn I'm designing all of these intersections with the best ped and bike accommodations I can, but the result is that the cycle lengths have to get longer as the v/c climbs, and eventually that means adding more lanes, which means longer ped crossing times, which means longer cycles... it's really not a lot of fun.

I was hoping I could put in left turn bays at unsignalized intersections, since I learned that they're a MASSIVE safety boon, but there's just no room. Even in some utopian world where car volumes dropped by 50%, we still wouldn't have room for everything merited by benefit/cost without demolishing half the city.

So yeah, six straight months, and no end in sight. I want a new job.

Come to Florida and work on this monster: http://i4ultimate.com/ or it's son: http://i4express.com/

I was thinking of this thread while reading an 850 page report on allowing Disney to build a ~2000ft long offramp directly into one of their parking garages. Enjoy: http://www.i4express.com/Seg1Docs/Draft_I4_and_SR_536_IMR_08262014.pdf

# ¿ Sep 13, 2015 16:13

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# ¿ Apr 26, 2024 06:20

Zero One: Dec 30, 2004; HAIL TO THE VICTORS!

Oh for sure... it was still a shock to me when I started going through it.

# ¿ Sep 15, 2015 04:58

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Ask me about being a Traffic Engineer!