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As Foley himself points out, he gets more of the credit than he deserves because 99% of the match is Undertaker babystepping him through to the end, and that Taker is one of the few people in the world he could trust to pull him through a match like that in the condition he was in.
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Jan 17, 2010 00:30
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You can see plastic ties lying in the ring after the bump through the cell, I've always thought these were good indicators that the piece of the cell that broke was gimmicked and designed to breakaway, implying it was a planned spot.
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Jan 17, 2010 00:31
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The main problem I have with the match is it is structured in the most idiotic way possible. It starts with the biggest spot of the match, a spot that was almost sure to injure the guy taking it in some way. So of course Foley had to wrestle in a fog the rest of the match, the idiot took that bump at the start of the match.
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Jan 17, 2010 00:31
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Timby posted:There's also some fog in there, as Terry Funk claims that both Cell bumps were planned and Foley talked to him about how to make the match watchable, while Foley insists that only the fall off the Cell was in the plan. I've never heard anybody claim the second bump was planned. The bit about Foley talking to Funk about following up 'Taker/Shawn and needing the fall off the top to make it watchable is in Foley's book, but nothing I've ever seen indicates Foley was meant to go through the Cell. Timby posted:But, really, if not for the two major bumps, no one would remember Taker / Foley '98. Hell, 95% of the people who saw the match don't remember anything about it besides the bumps. Which, granted, does make it entertaining when you ask them what happened after the chokeslam. EDIT: Chop Licker posted:You can see plastic ties lying in the ring after the bump through the cell, I've always thought these were good indicators that the piece of the cell that broke was gimmicked and designed to breakaway, implying it was a planned spot. Those were intended to add some extra stability for the guys walking on the top. I'm pretty sure you can see them (attached) during Shawn/'Taker as well.
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Jan 17, 2010 00:33
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Jerusalem posted:As Foley himself points out, he gets more of the credit than he deserves because 99% of the match is Undertaker babystepping him through to the end, and that Taker is one of the few people in the world he could trust to pull him through a match like that in the condition he was in. Vince: Taker has a broken foot, Mick. I can still change the booking if you think he isn't up to it. Taker himself is expressing doubts. Foley: No, let's do it. I trust him. (Later) Taker: Hey Jack, you sure you dont want to try to do something with someone else? My foot hurts fierce and I'm afraid of bringing the match down. Foley: No sir. You and me. I trust you implicitly. (After the match) Wife: Why the gently caress did he throw you off that loving cage two loving times in row? Foley: Because I....trusted him?
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Jan 17, 2010 00:36
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MassRayPer posted:The main problem I have with the match is it is structured in the most idiotic way possible. It starts with the biggest spot of the match, a spot that was almost sure to injure the guy taking it in some way. So of course Foley had to wrestle in a fog the rest of the match, the idiot took that bump at the start of the match. Foley's reasoning was that in the condition both of them were in and with the expectations from the last HIAC, they had to grab people's attention immediately or they would poo poo all over the match. I've always wondered how much input Taker had into the structure of the match, as from Foley's book it seems to be mostly him making suggestions and Taker's reactions, and then Taker guiding him through it in a fog on the night itself.
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Jan 17, 2010 00:38
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These are the matches that got nominated for match of the year in RSPW in 1998. I took those because I figured they would have the highest number of matches nominated and I took every match that got at least 1 nominationcode:
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Jan 17, 2010 00:42
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I don't have a source for Funk saying that both major bumps were planned, but I swear I've read it. I may be wrong, but I am fully convinced that I've seen it written. After watching it back-to-back with the HHH/Foley Cell match in February 2000, it really blows. Yeah, Foley's bumps are a little less impressive in 2000, but the entire match -- especially the segment when the guys are trying to exit the cell, not finding the gimmicked portions, and then just beating the hell out of each other -- (although it would be helped if JR hadn't used the "Mick Foley is broken in half" call not once, but twice, during the match), but it was still obscene.
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Jan 17, 2010 00:47
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Rusty Shackelford posted:I know this is a subjective question, but what is the worst "Match of the Year" when you look back on it? PWI MOTY has the accuracy of a drunk with a scopeless sniper rifle. Going by WON: If you're comparing MOTYs with each other, then I'd say Atlantis vs. Villano III from 2000. Such a loving plodding, boring match with two ancient dudes. And I'd probably say the same if we're talking MOTY that didn't deserve to win it. The worst WOTY is easily Mutoh beating Austin in 2001
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Jan 17, 2010 00:59
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Captain Charisma posted:PWI MOTY has the accuracy of a drunk with a scopeless sniper rifle. Mankind/Taker won MOTY in the RSPW year end awards, too.
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Jan 17, 2010 01:03
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MassRayPer posted:So of course Foley had to wrestle in a fog the rest of the match, the idiot took that bump at the start of the match. Wasn't the bump that put him in a fog the chokeslam through the roof? I remember Foley saying in his first book that after the toss through the table felt relatively okay, but the chokeslam knocked him out cold (or was it the chair that came down after?). I think he said the same on his Greatest Hits and Misses DVD. The book or DVD also had a mention, I think, that that chokeslam was the best and worst he ever took; worst because it knocked him out, and best because if he was any higher he'd probably be dead.
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Jan 17, 2010 01:05
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Timby posted:There's also some fog in there, as Terry Funk claims that both Cell bumps were planned and Foley talked to him about how to make the match watchable, while Foley insists that only the fall off the Cell was in the plan. Considering those two bumps created the story of the match, I'd say you're right. Matches are about more than just moves. It was a great match because it told a great story. It was a great match because it touched on your emotions. Just like it did Jim Ross's, which is why his commentary on it is the most memorable he's ever done. To act like HBK/Taker's casket match and HHH/Rock's ladder match hold a candle to it is just pure insanity. You don't need to have seen the ladder match. But if you're a wrestling fan, you better have watched HITC 2. Story and emotion is also the reason why HBK/Austin from WM was one of the better WWF matches of the year. Despite Michaels operating at 20%.
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Jan 17, 2010 01:15
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Anybody know what happened to the 2009 Wrestlehut awards?tzirean posted:I've never heard anybody claim the second bump was planned. The bit about Foley talking to Funk about following up 'Taker/Shawn and needing the fall off the top to make it watchable is in Foley's book, but nothing I've ever seen indicates Foley was meant to go through the Cell. There have been wrestlers other than Funk who said that it was gimmicked. Allegedly, Foley knew his wife would be angry so he claimed it was an accident. The problem was the chair on the cage, which the forgot about and hit Foley coming down, helping knock him out.
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Jan 17, 2010 02:13
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WeaselWeaz posted:Anybody know what happened to the 2009 Wrestlehut awards? They'll be up in a day or two according to Hulkamatt. I don't buy the whole "story of the match" HITC stuff. The story of the match is the heel takes hellacious bumps but the babyface can't put him away despite the heel being utterly destroyed, but despite his valiant efforts the heel loses anyway. The structure is all wrong and the finish is completely anti-climatic compared to the highlights. I've seen FMW matches built around very few moves, and one big bump, or an explosion, and they've managed to tell great stories and not bore me. But Foley/Taker isn't enjoyable to me because the two big bumps are so loving stupid.
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Jan 17, 2010 02:19
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MassRayPer posted:I've seen FMW matches built around very few moves, and one big bump, or an explosion, and they've managed to tell great stories and not bore me. But Foley/Taker isn't enjoyable to me because the two big bumps are so loving stupid. I love the match for one particular moment that says so much to me about both characters. After Foley was being stretchered out he fights his way free (JR and King's disbelief really sells the moment) and heads back to the cell and begins climbing back up, showing us how insane the Mankind character is. The camera then cuts to Undertaker who was halfway down the cell because he thought the match was over. He watches Mankind climbing the cage for a moment, then seems to go,"Welp, looks like he ain't done yet," and starts climbing back up himself. No "HOLY gently caress HE'S ALIVE!" or "UNBELIEVEABLE!" reaction from Taker, just,"Looks like I'm gonna have to kick this guy's rear end some more." I loved that, Taker was all business and didn't seem at all put out at Mankind's resilience, just taking it as a matter of course.
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Jan 17, 2010 02:27
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oldpainless posted:I find it admirable. He was injured and God knows what else he was thinking, but he still thought he had a job to do and entertain the people and thats exactly what he did. Its a testament to toughness and "the show must go on" more than anything else. Foley wanted to finish the match while in tremendous pain (even if he was loopy and somewhat unaware). HHH did the same thing when he tore his quad and stayed in the Walls of Jericho and finished the match. Vince tore both quads and finished the angle he was in at RR 05. Nash tore his quad and....fell down immediately and couldn't move. But my point remains that the act is admirable. In a similar vein, HHH vs Cactus Jack when HHH had that giant splinter go into his leg and he had practically fainted by the end from blood loss.
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Jan 17, 2010 03:24
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Moose Bigelow posted:That match was so overrated. It was two spots and a lot of standing around with maybe 5-10 minutes of actual wrestling which was terrible. Well if you took all the chops and Figure 4's out of Flair/Steamboat it'd probably suck too (not my joke)
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Jan 17, 2010 04:18
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I watched the Taker/Foley match again last week. The way Undertaker chokeslams him is a good argument for it being planned. He barely lifts him up and if the cage hadn't gave way, it would have been the lamest chokeslam ever. Plus the fact that Taker climbs down the cage, not really knowing if Foley is even ALIVE let alone okay to finish, and starts pushing away the medical staff and chokeslams Funk.
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Jan 17, 2010 05:11
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Chop Licker posted:You can see plastic ties lying in the ring after the bump through the cell, I've always thought these were good indicators that the piece of the cell that broke was gimmicked and designed to breakaway, implying it was a planned spot. It was, but the break was supposed to be more gradual, allowing Foley to roll down a slope into the ring. Which still would have hurt, but the sudden, unplanned drop made it a lot worse.
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Jan 17, 2010 07:48
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I like to think that Vince was really pissed off at Foley for some reason and the entire match was actually Taker trying to legitimately murder Foley on orders but Mick would just not loving die. (throws Foley off cage) Taker: OK, Ive thrown this rear end in a top hat off a 20-foot cage. He's gotta be dead. I see EMTs, paramedics, hes alive but he will either die or he is permanently crippled. (Foley comes back to ring) Taker: gently caress me. (later) Taker: OK, Ive thrown this rear end in a top hat through the cage now. Surely, between this and the previous fall, its finally over. (later) Taker: Good match, Cactus. Foley: Well, I trusted you out there.
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Jan 17, 2010 07:57
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MassRayPer posted:I don't buy the whole "story of the match" HITC stuff. The story of the match is the heel takes hellacious bumps but the babyface can't put him away despite the heel being utterly destroyed, but despite his valiant efforts the heel loses anyway. The structure is all wrong and the finish is completely anti-climatic compared to the highlights. Foley never said it was a great story, in fact he says when someone says it's their favorite match it's dissapointing. Taker was injured and Foley had no heat, so the idea was just to have two big bumps and thumbtacks to make people think they saw an amazing spectable. Foley probably also figured that this would get him over as a crazy tough-guy by the end of it, hopefully building to some sort of fan response. Collias posted:Plus the fact that Taker climbs down the cage, not really knowing if Foley is even ALIVE let alone okay to finish, and starts pushing away the medical staff and chokeslams Funk. He did know. They talked to Foley, who said he just needed some time, and then relayed the message to Taker. This isn't different from what referees do in a normal match.
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Jan 17, 2010 08:34
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oldpainless posted:I like to think that Vince was really pissed off at Foley for some reason and the entire match was actually Taker trying to legitimately murder Foley on orders but Mick would just not loving die. I always liked Taker's response to the chokeslam, per Foley's book. Foley asks him what he thought when he was looking down at him in the middle of the ring. His answer was a simple, "I thought you were dead." Whenever I see folks on here talking about how much of a badass Taker is, I'm always reminded of that exchange, Taker standing on top of the Cell. 'Welp, he's dead. What should I have for my post-match meal.'
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Jan 17, 2010 11:53
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I've got Terry Funk's "More Than Hardcore" in front of me nowquote:...he wanted to do something spectacular and memorable. We somehow came up with the idea of Cactus taking a big fall off the top. Then, after he came back, to everyone's amazement, Undertaker would choke slam him into the cage roof. The prop guy was supposed to make sure the two sides of the cage were secure, so the impact from Mick's body would cause the top of the cage to sag and gradually come open, so Mick would slowly tumble into the ring
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Jan 17, 2010 12:30
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Not only did it give way immediately, the chair that he was chokeslammed onto ended up landing -on- his face, which is what did most of the damage.
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Jan 17, 2010 12:33
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WeaselWeaz posted:He did know. They talked to Foley, who said he just needed some time, and then relayed the message to Taker. This isn't different from what referees do in a normal match.
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Jan 17, 2010 16:04
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That match was epic - technically pure poo poo, but riveting and captivating. If you're of the opinion that the 'match of the year' goes to the most memorable spectacle then it deserved the award. Otherwise nobody is going to defend it on any other merit. But the scene of Undertaker standing on the top of the cell while it gets raised, and the crowd doing the 'Un Der Tay Ker CLAP CLAP CLAPCLAPCLAP' while Foley is loaded onto a stretcher. Well it was sort of cool.
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Jan 17, 2010 16:17
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I just watched it again, and yeah there was enough yelling and signing to inform Taker of the situation. One more thing I noticed were people yelling "Finish the match Mick!" God, if his own desire to finish wasn't enough, that sure did it.
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Jan 17, 2010 16:28
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apsouthern posted:I've got Terry Funk's "More Than Hardcore" in front of me now I think part of the problem was that the spot already started to give way. When they start the match Undertaker and Mankind are fighting on the cage and at one point they step on the panel that Mick later gets chokeslammed through. About half the clasps came off into the ring and they both got off it very quickly. If not for that the spot probably would have had a higher chance of working right.
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Jan 17, 2010 18:12
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Perdido posted:Whenever I see folks on here talking about how much of a badass Taker is, I'm always reminded of that exchange, Taker standing on top of the Cell. 'Welp, he's dead. What should I have for my post-match meal.' Actually, I believe his reasoning was,"Welp he's dead and I have a broken foot, better drop down to the ring and kill Terry Funk."
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Jan 17, 2010 22:04
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A couple questions: Is Little Naitch actually related to Ric Flair? Or is he called that just because he looks like he has a family resemblance? And I'm not sure if there is a proper answer to this, but what exactly is "ring psychology"? Is it making the match seem realistic? Entertaining? Both/more?
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Jan 17, 2010 23:46
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He's just a ref from the WCW days that looks a little like Flair. I think the name actually came from a feud that they had with Macho Man in 1999.
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Jan 17, 2010 23:53
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PunkBoy posted:And I'm not sure if there is a proper answer to this, but what exactly is "ring psychology"? Is it making the match seem realistic? Entertaining? Both/more? Part of ring psychology is telling a story through the selling of moves/injuries. Like why we all complain about Cena being a wrestler with terrible psychology is, for example, his leg will be the focus of his opponents attack. He'll sell it for a little while, but then the time comes where the button gets pressed that "I am going to win now" and he stops selling the leg, flawlessly executes the FU, then the STFU.
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Jan 17, 2010 23:54
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PunkBoy posted:A couple questions: If by Little Naitch you mean Charles Robinson, no, I think he's just called that because of his resemblance of Flair, as well as his idolization of Flair and his association/angle with Flair during the late 90s in WCW. As for psychology, I understand it to being keeping the story of the match cohesive and rational within the realms of the angle. An example being something like if Shawn Michaels kept targeting the Undertaker's legs in the buildup to their WM match, then not only would he target the legs in the actual match, but Undertaker would be prepared for these attacks and adjust his style to keep Michaels from being able to target his legs. A simpler example would be Evan Bourne vs. Sheamus: Bourne attempts to quicken the pace because he has the speed and aerial advantage, but Sheamus attempts to slow it down and ground Bourne because he has the size and strength advantage. I could be misunderstanding what other people mean by psychology, but that's how I take it. edit: beaten on BOTH questions 
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Jan 17, 2010 23:55
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One part of ring psychology that hasn't been brought up is how the wrestlers sell the match itself. A few examples from last year: - The look on Undertaker's face at WM25 after HBK kicked out of the first Tombstone. The master of mind games after 20 years had finally been broken down and with one incredulous look he showed that he realized he wasn't unbeatable. - CM Punk Hulking up to beat William Regal for the IC title last year. Nothing original by any means, but by the time Punk made it to the top turnbuckle near the end of the match and let out a primal scream that sold pretty much the entire angle to me: He had tried time and time again to beat Regal only to lose by dubious means, but this time there was no way out for Regal and Punk was in his hometown, which was absolutely electric for him. He let a surge of adrenaline take him over without actually no-selling Regal's offense, carried out a GTS while Regal kept elbowing him in the temple, THEN sold all the offense he took once he actually won the match. - Randy Orton's strategy during his Iron Man match with John Cena. Cena got Orton in the STFU early on in the match and Orton tapped immediately so that Cena could get an easy fall without Orton having to suffer nearly any damage at all. Orton then more or less pounded the piss out of Cena for 20 minutes straight until he got cocky and gave Cena time to recover, gain an upperhand and tie up the score. With about a minute left Orton started freaking out because he realized he wasn't in a position to put Cena away anymore and you could see Orton starting to panic:  Even though it looked like he was beatboxing. The fact that he tapped out with two seconds left in regulation kind of ruined an otherwise great match, but I still think it told a pretty great story.
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Jan 18, 2010 00:12
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Whats the difference bewteen a Hurricanrana and a Frankenstiner?
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Jan 18, 2010 00:13
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Frankensteiner throws the opponent off the top turnbuckle from a handstand position, Hurricanrana involves jumping onto the opponent's shoulders and taking them down.
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Jan 18, 2010 00:15
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Seeing as this is the first TNA PPV Hogan has been on I was wondering what was the first WCW PPV he was on? I'm mostly asking because I didn't follow WCW a lot when it was originally on.
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Jan 18, 2010 00:22
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BigRed0427 posted:Whats the difference bewteen a Hurricanrana and a Frankenstiner? The rana involves a pin. It translates to "Hurricane Pin" while a Frankensteiner doesn't have to end in a pin.
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Jan 18, 2010 00:23
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KungFu Grip posted:Seeing as this is the first TNA PPV Hogan has been on I was wondering what was the first WCW PPV he was on? I'm mostly asking because I didn't follow WCW a lot when it was originally on. Ric Flair Bash at the Beach 94.
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Jan 18, 2010 00:24
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KungFu Grip posted:Seeing as this is the first TNA PPV Hogan has been on I was wondering what was the first WCW PPV he was on? I'm mostly asking because I didn't follow WCW a lot when it was originally on. Bash at the Beach 1994. He debuted and won the title from Flair.
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Jan 18, 2010 00:25
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