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Glamorama26
Sep 14, 2011

All it comes down to is this: I feel like shit, but look great.
I am a big fan of Kobashi vs Akiyama from...04 I wanna say? A great example of the style. Samoa Joe vs Kobashi is also required viewing. Basically, anything with Kobashi.

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Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

Kobashi vs Sasaki is great if you've ever wondered what would happen if two alpha redwoods decided to start a turf war. :stare:

Bocc Kob
Oct 26, 2010

Julio Cesar Fatass posted:

What's a good example of a strong style match? I want to see what the japanese guys were doing that had them convinced pro wrestling could win a real fight.

If you're impervious to pain and can slap a guy's chest hard enough they start bleeding, pro wrestling probably can win a real fight.

Rags to Liches
Mar 11, 2008

future skeleton soldier


Bocc Kob posted:

If you're impervious to pain and can slap a guy's chest hard enough they start bleeding, pro wrestling probably can win a real fight.

Add the fact that a lot of Japanese workers have an MMA background, and more than a few of them could probably hold their own.

Julio Cesar Fatass
Jul 24, 2007

"...."
Thanks for the suggestions, guys! Are there any American promotions who book this kind of stuff?

UltimoDragonQuest
Oct 5, 2011



It won't convince you they'd win a real fight but everyone in the Synchtube channel loved Sekimoto vs. Sasaki from March.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1gw2FkvK2g

Gyro Zeppeli
Jul 19, 2012

sure hope no-one throws me off a bridge

Joe/Kobashi is ridiculous. They just kinda abandon wrestling half way through and just start loving PUMMELLING each other.

The GIG
Jun 28, 2011

Yeah, I say "Shit" a shit-ton of times. What of it, shithead?

Jerusalem posted:

Kobashi vs Sasaki is great if you've ever wondered what would happen if two alpha redwoods decided to start a turf war. :stare:

You might think J-Ru is exaggerating, but he's not. The match looks like two Ents beating the poo poo out of each other.

Gyro Zeppeli
Jul 19, 2012

sure hope no-one throws me off a bridge

Oh, gently caress yes, how could I forget Kobashi/Sasaki. How neither of them came out of it without broken ribs or clavicles from the chop-off, I'm not sure.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

The first time I watched it was during one of our Puropalooza compilations, and somebody came in five minutes after the chop war started and we said,"Oh man you missed five minutes of chop war!" and then the chop war went for another 5 minutes :stare:

If I remember right, the thread's reaction pretty much went,"OH MY GOD WHAT IS GOING ON HERE HOW IS THIS HAPPENING OH gently caress THEY'RE STILL FIGH... STOP IT YOU'RE KILLING EAC.... OH MY SWEET GENTLE JESUS!"

Gyro Zeppeli
Jul 19, 2012

sure hope no-one throws me off a bridge

It's just the loving FORCE they chop with. You can see them winding each other with each chop.

The Duck of Death
Nov 19, 2009

Julio Cesar Fatass posted:

What's a good example of a strong style match?

Please watch this match. You're welcome.

Glamorama26
Sep 14, 2011

All it comes down to is this: I feel like shit, but look great.
Oh my God, Hashimoto and Tanaka with no regard for human life. Also, that is one of the nastier brainbusters I've ever seen.

Rousimar Pauladeen
Feb 27, 2007

I hate the mods I hate the mods I hate the mods! I HATE THE MODS I HATE THE MODS I HATE THE MODS! Hey wait a minute why do the mods hate me I'm contributing to the conversation I HATE THE MODS I HATE THE MODS I HA

Jerusalem posted:

The first time I watched it was during one of our Puropalooza compilations, and somebody came in five minutes after the chop war started and we said,"Oh man you missed five minutes of chop war!" and then the chop war went for another 5 minutes :stare:

If I remember right, the thread's reaction pretty much went,"OH MY GOD WHAT IS GOING ON HERE HOW IS THIS HAPPENING OH gently caress THEY'RE STILL FIGH... STOP IT YOU'RE KILLING EAC.... OH MY SWEET GENTLE JESUS!"
You were in the manflurry room and I missed it?

ShadowedFlames
Dec 26, 2009

Shoot this guy in the face.

Fallen Rib

Jesus, that brainbuster! I know Masato is a tough SOB but holy poo poo....

Rags to Liches
Mar 11, 2008

future skeleton soldier



Wasn't that the match that led to Zero-1 giving Tanaka a contract?

Halloween Jack
Sep 12, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 4 hours!

Julio Cesar Fatass posted:

I want to see what the japanese guys were doing that had them convinced pro wrestling could win a real fight.
http://youtu.be/UdGp48HoyAM

Rags to Liches
Mar 11, 2008

future skeleton soldier



Sakuraba. Holy poo poo.

Julio Cesar Fatass
Jul 24, 2007

"...."

Aubergine Mage posted:

Sakuraba. Holy poo poo.

Sakuraba in happier days against Kiyoshi Tamura with Pancrase rules:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH1r23lfSI4&t=1017s

His knee looks like it was hosed all the way back in 1996. How he even gets out of bed anymore, I have no idea :smith:

Rags to Liches
Mar 11, 2008

future skeleton soldier


Julio Cesar Fatass posted:

Sakuraba in happier days against Kiyoshi Tamura with Pancrase rules:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH1r23lfSI4&t=1017s

His knee looks like it was hosed all the way back in 1996. How he even gets out of bed anymore, I have no idea :smith:

He reminds himself that he's getting out of bed to gently caress someone up.

El Gallinero Gros
Mar 17, 2010
He puts a picture of the Gracie family across the room from his bed, and his body just takes over and starts working over the wall with the picture like he caught it breaking into his house.

Then he has a grapefruit, does the crossword.

Rags to Liches
Mar 11, 2008

future skeleton soldier


El Gallinero Gros posted:

He puts a picture of the Gracie family across the room from his bed, and his body just takes over and starts working over the wall with the picture like he caught it breaking into his house.

Then he has a grapefruit, does the crossword.

Meanwhile, the remaining Gracies in Brazil awaken with fear and dread. The Gracie Hunter has awoken.

Jetfire
Apr 29, 2008
This comes from the WWE Discussion thread but I thought it was more appropriate to ask here: what exactly made Heyman so bad with money in the ECW days? Did he just never realize how much it cost to run the promotion? Did he pocket the money from the gate for himself and tell no one? Why couldn't or wouldn't he pay half (or whatever the number was) his talent?

Chris James 2
Aug 9, 2012


Jetfire posted:

This comes from the WWE Discussion thread but I thought it was more appropriate to ask here: what exactly made Heyman so bad with money in the ECW days? Did he just never realize how much it cost to run the promotion? Did he pocket the money from the gate for himself and tell no one? Why couldn't or wouldn't he pay half (or whatever the number was) his talent?

He just didn't know how to handle it. He paid wrestlers in checks that would bounce. In the last full year of ECW, everybody went unpaid with the promise that the money would come later (later being never). He spent more than he made. If anybody else had been in charge of finances, ECW might have lasted longer than it did.

Cardboard Box
Jul 14, 2009

It varied from person to person. It seems if they were more adamant about getting their money, they had a better chance of getting it. Lance Storm, for instance, gave Heyman notice that if he had one more bounced check, he was leaving, and after that he got paid on time until the company went under.

Meanwhile guys like Tommy Dreamer loved the promotion so much that they pretty much never asked for money--I remember reading a list a good while back of how much money some people were owed by the time ECW filed for bankruptcy, and Dreamer had a ridiculous amount he was never paid.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW

Cardboard Box posted:

It varied from person to person. It seems if they were more adamant about getting their money, they had a better chance of getting it. Lance Storm, for instance, gave Heyman notice that if he had one more bounced check, he was leaving, and after that he got paid on time until the company went under.

Meanwhile guys like Tommy Dreamer loved the promotion so much that they pretty much never asked for money--I remember reading a list a good while back of how much money some people were owed by the time ECW filed for bankruptcy, and Dreamer had a ridiculous amount he was never paid.

Though Paul did buy him a truck and considered it a company expense, with the truck being named in the H.H.G. Liquidation proceedings.

CombineThresher
Apr 10, 2006

GIT R DONNE

Jetfire posted:

This comes from the WWE Discussion thread but I thought it was more appropriate to ask here: what exactly made Heyman so bad with money in the ECW days? Did he just never realize how much it cost to run the promotion? Did he pocket the money from the gate for himself and tell no one? Why couldn't or wouldn't he pay half (or whatever the number was) his talent?

Paul was basically spread so thin from booking/running ECW that he had no energy left to do the accounting properly, plus he did everything last minute and would do things like spend stupid amounts of money overnighting tapes of Hardcore TV to stations in areas where they didn't even run shows.

And really, ECW grew faster than Paul could control, and it couldn't have sustained itself without a lot of new money/revenue sources that Paul just couldn't generate by himself.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW

CombineThresher posted:

Paul was basically spread so thin from booking/running ECW that he had no energy left to do the accounting properly, plus he did everything last minute and would do things like spend stupid amounts of money overnighting tapes of Hardcore TV to stations in areas where they didn't even run shows.

And really, ECW grew faster than Paul could control, and it couldn't have sustained itself without a lot of new money/revenue sources that Paul just couldn't generate by himself.

ECW tried to run things like a lot of indies do. You do everything internally. The wrestlers were the staff. His parents were his legal department. Why rent a studio when you can throw a curtain up in your basement for vignettes?

Heyman is a great example of how some people forget that they are in the wrestling business meaning there's a business side to things. It would have cost him less money to get some real accountants to help run the company than it was for him to attempt to do everything himself. Paul also was a creature of habit and had a tendency of continuing to run shows at ECW Arena when it no longer became sensible or profitable. Also being a creature of habit he was a control freak and I don't believe he could have put up with an accountant telling him he shouldn't book somebody because it would put him over budget.


WHO IS THIS MAN!?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33Teo6Pmum8

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

BAEST MODE!!!
Here's why ECW's finances were so bad:

They did not bring in enough revenue and did not have adequate financial backing. ECW wasn't losing money because Heyman was spread thin or not a financial wiz nor was it because they "grew too quickly," it was because the company didn't have a viable business plan.

When you are flying in talent from all over the country and overseas to run in a 1,000 seat building you do not have a viable business plan. Remember, for a long time 1,000 was ECW's biggest crowd EVER. Their house shows weren't going to put the company in the black. There was no plausible way to succeed other than "Hope people notice our product and then uh... get on PPV?"

You might say "Well they could get away with not using lots of (relatively) expensive talent" but then where is the buzz? Where is the word of mouth? ECW would have remained a Philadelphia area indie and I guess just run shows for a long time that a few people saw and loved, but Paul Heyman couldn't make a living off that.

ECW was in the same basic place a lot of wrestling companies reach: Too small to be big and too big to be small. They spend too much money trying to become national but don't have the kind of budget to compete with the big boys.

Rousimar Pauladeen
Feb 27, 2007

I hate the mods I hate the mods I hate the mods! I HATE THE MODS I HATE THE MODS I HATE THE MODS! Hey wait a minute why do the mods hate me I'm contributing to the conversation I HATE THE MODS I HATE THE MODS I HA

MassRayPer posted:

Here's why ECW's finances were so bad:

They did not bring in enough revenue and did not have adequate financial backing. ECW wasn't losing money because Heyman was spread thin or not a financial wiz nor was it because they "grew too quickly," it was because the company didn't have a viable business plan.

When you are flying in talent from all over the country and overseas to run in a 1,000 seat building you do not have a viable business plan. Remember, for a long time 1,000 was ECW's biggest crowd EVER. Their house shows weren't going to put the company in the black. There was no plausible way to succeed other than "Hope people notice our product and then uh... get on PPV?"

You might say "Well they could get away with not using lots of (relatively) expensive talent" but then where is the buzz? Where is the word of mouth? ECW would have remained a Philadelphia area indie and I guess just run shows for a long time that a few people saw and loved, but Paul Heyman couldn't make a living off that.

ECW was in the same basic place a lot of wrestling companies reach: Too small to be big and too big to be small. They spend too much money trying to become national but don't have the kind of budget to compete with the big boys.

In addition to this when you get on PPV you don't see the revenue from that show for (at that time according to the ECW books I have read) about 6 months. Incurring a huge expense and then hoping you made enough to cover it 6 months from now is a terrible business model.

Suben
Jul 1, 2007

In 1985 Dr. Strange makes a rap album.
I think people were mixing up two different puro styles? Strong style's basically what evolved from Inoki mixing in a greater emphasis on submission and martial arts stuff and a lot of guys having martial arts backgrounds to make it come off closer to a legitimate fight.

The style that most people are referring to is King's Road and evolved from American/NWA style wrestling and was more about hard hitting action, fighting spirit and storytelling. It is/was All Japan's style and naturally carried over to NOAH after the split and given that All Japan and NOAH were the big dogs for puro fans in the '90s and most of the 2000s King's Road is probably what most people think of when they think about puro.

At least that's how I'm sure it is. Probably people like Ditch with better puro knowledge would know more/be able to explain it better.

The Duck of Death
Nov 19, 2009

The simplest way to put it would be:

Strong Style = NJ heavies
King's Road = AJ heavies

Lloyd Boner
Oct 11, 2009

Yes officer, my name is Victoria Sonnen...berg
Has there ever been a best of seven series that didn't go to the seventh match?

STING 64
Oct 20, 2006

Lloyd Boner posted:

Has there ever been a best of seven series that didn't go to the seventh match?

Yoshihiro Tajiri vs Little Guido went 0-4 in ECW.

The Goog
Aug 6, 2007

It's a Goog Day, yes it is!

Lloyd Boner posted:

Has there ever been a best of seven series that didn't go to the seventh match?

Benoit and Booker T were feuding over the US Title, except Booker got hurt during the series so he had Orton wrestle as his surrogate a few times. Orton/Booker won the series in six matches.

Liar Lyre
Jun 3, 2011

Here to deliver
~Bad Opinions~

I remember seeing a clip on botchamania with Cole and Foley commenting on a real cruddy match. Kinda like MST3K. What was the context of it?

Rousimar Pauladeen
Feb 27, 2007

I hate the mods I hate the mods I hate the mods! I HATE THE MODS I HATE THE MODS I HATE THE MODS! Hey wait a minute why do the mods hate me I'm contributing to the conversation I HATE THE MODS I HATE THE MODS I HA

Liar Lyre posted:

I remember seeing a clip on botchamania with Cole and Foley commenting on a real cruddy match. Kinda like MST3K. What was the context of it?

It could have been either the Kennel in a Cell with Al Snow and Big Boss Man or the Shea Stadium show from WWE 24/7.

TheHock
Jul 3, 2008

I have altered my retirement plans. Pray I do not alter them any further.
It was Kennel in a Cell, and that commentary track is from the Hard Knocks and Cheap Pops DVD. Foley requested that the match be put on there so he could do commentary on it.

Strenuous Manflurry
Sep 5, 2006

THE END
Kennel was Foley and Kevin Kelly I think. Foley and Cole did the Shea show.

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Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine
It was Kevin Kelly, not Cole.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKhAtxXNbsc

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