burritonegro posted:

e: I'm always conflicted on whether to reply-all or not to my gramp's political forwarded email. Pros are it enlightens the subject to others who might care, Cons are it furthers people's junk mail.

Toad on a Hat posted:

Hahaha can you post this picture? I don't think I've ever seen it.

burritonegro posted:

^^^^thanks

burritonegro posted:

Kro-Bar posted:

I'm fairly bad with arguments, but I made a vague comment on my facebook page about people overreacting to "Climategate", and how it certainly doesn't negate global warming.
Ever since, my brother has been trying to convince me that AGW is, in fact, a political conspiracy and that most legit scientists don't believe it's an issue.
He sent me a Jonah Goldberg column (http://tinyurl.com/yjw8t5u) to try to prove his point. Is it completely pointless to try to argue with him?

Eggs posted:

Mr. Girdusky, with that metaphor in mind, Ruben Diaz is the Meg White of political drummers. The one-armed, severely retarded Meg White.

This rear end posted:

I dont know who meg white is. And marriage is not a right. Rights come from god not from the government; people are arguing over entitlements. Instead of asking for marriage freedom people are arguing over marriage tyranny.

Eggs posted:

Oh, you're one of those. Well, here goes, but probably not worth it. Kev, sorry to clutter up your page, daddy-o.

I respect your belief that rights are bestowed by God, which, I'm going to take a stab at it, you believe is the Christian God.

However, the framers of our Constitution established the principle of separation of church and state, and even specifically included in said document the statement that any rights in said Constitution are derived from the people themselves, not any deity.... See More

So, to double-emphasize that, rights in the US are derived from the people, and God is in fact never once mentioned in the Constitution.

http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/freedom/constitution/text.html

"But Ed!" you say, "God is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence, and our founding fathers meant for us to be a Christian nation," to which I will reply that yes, God is mentioned in the Declaration, a letter declaring intent with no legal authority in any sense of the meaning, and no, the founding fathers really didn't intend that at all.

I would then point you to this here link, which is excitingly well-researched and fantastically informative about the religious mindsets of our Constitution's framers.

http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html

Now that that is settled, let's move on to your statement that LGBT Americans are trying to enforce "marriage tyranny."Well, let's think about that. A homosexual population that by conservative estimates contains about 10.5 million American citizens and which has been historically repressed in our country is in an unlikely position to enact any sort of "tyranny" (which I assume you mean its definition of "arbitrary or unrestrained exercise of power; despotic abuse of authority") on the rest of America's citizens.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tyranny

Oh, I got that 10.5 million number from this following page, which ran a comparison of Kinsey's sex studies, the 2000 census, and several exit polls. Check it out!

http://www.avert.org/gay-people.htm

I hope this has been informative, and I certainly hope that it may have changed your perspective slightly on this issue. If not, feel free to continue debating, if Kev is alright with that on his page. You may also want to check out this very informative FAQ on gay marriage in the US.

http://www.hrc.org/issues/5517.htm

PS: Meg White is the technically deficient drummer for the White Stripes.

This rear end again posted:

What you just read are the crazed writings of a mad man who knows close to nothing about natural law theory, the founding fathers, or the constitution

EggsofSteel posted:

What you just read are the crazed writings of a mad man who knows close to nothing about natural law theory, the founding fathers, or the constitution

Davish Krail posted:

You should have pointed out that this statement should be interpreted as projection.

quote:

What an insightful rebuttal full of sharp and well-resourced points. Boy, it certainly seems like you read my post and the accompanying links before replying.

Either you have no substantial argument against gay marriage besides "God told me to,"or you're just trolling, in which case there are much funnier and less-important issues to troll.

I also daresay that your last statement is projecting a bit much

EggsofSteel posted:

I had a doozy today on my best friend's Facebook. My friend had stated that he was going to write a letter to the office of our state senator, who voted no on allowing gay marriage in New York after accepting money from HRC and other organizations for his stated support of gay marriage. This distant acquaintance comes on and says that state senators like ours and Ruben Diaz "march to their own drummer," and so:





I mean, was I off in my reply, or am I right in assuming he's some religious nut who thinks Thomas Aquinas wrote our constitution?

EggsofSteel posted:

I then included that video of Baby Sinclair saying "I'm the baby, gotta love me!"

quote:

Now if this doesn't put "Jesus is the reason for the Season" into perspective, nothing will!

Letter from Jesus about Christmas --

It has come to my attention that many of you are upset that folks are taking My name out of the season.

How I personally feel about this celebration can probably be most easily understood by those of you who have been blessed with children of your own. I don't care what you call the day. If you want to celebrate My birth, just GET ALONG AND LOVE ONE ANOTHER.

Now, having said that let Me go on. If it bothers you that the town in which you live doesn't allow a scene depicting My birth, then just get rid of a couple of Santas and snowmen and put in a small Nativity scene on your own front lawn If all My followers did that there wouldn't be any need for such a scene on the town square because there would be many of them all around town.

Stop worrying about the fact that people are calling the tree a holiday tree, instead of a Christmas tree. It was I who made all trees. You can remember Me anytime you see any tree. Decorate a grape vine if you wish: I actually spoke of that one in a teaching, explaining who I am in relation to you and what each of our tasks were. If you have forgotten that one, look up John 15: 1 - 8.

If you want to give Me a present in remembrance of My birth here is my wish list. Choose something from it:

1. Instead of writing protest letters objecting to the way My birthday is being celebrated, write letters of love and hope to soldiers away from home. They are terribly afraid and lonely this time of year. I know, they tell Me all the time.

2. Visit someone in a nursing home. You don't have to know them personally. They just need to know that someone cares about them.

3. Instead of writing the President complaining about the wording on the cards his staff sent out this year, why don't you write and tell him that you'll be praying for him and his family this year. Then follow up... It will be nice hearing from you again.

4. Instead of giving your children a lot of gifts you can't afford and they don't need, spend time with them. Tell them the story of My birth, and why I came to live with you down here. Hold them in your arms and remind them that I love them.

5 Pick someone that has hurt you in the past and forgive him or her.

6. Did you know that someone in your town will attempt to take their own life this season because they feel so alone and hopeless? Since you don't know who that person is, try giving everyone you meet a warm smile; it could make the difference.

7. Instead of nit picking about what the retailer in your town calls the holiday, be patient with the people who work there. Give them a warm smile and a kind word. Even if they aren't allowed to wish you a "Merry Christmas" that doesn't keep you from wishing them one. Then stop shopping there on Sunday. If the store didn't make so much money on that day they'd close and let their employees spend the day at home with their families

8. If you really want to make a difference, support a missionary-- especially one who takes My love and Good News to those who have never heard My name.

9. Here's a good one. There are individuals and whole families in your town who not only will have no "Christmas" tree, but neither will they have any presents to give or receive. If you don't know them, buy some food and a few gifts and give them to the Salvation Army or some other charity which believes in Me and they will make the delivery for you.

10. Finally, if you want to make a statement about your belief in and loyalty to Me, then behave like a Christian. Don't do things in secret that you wouldn't do in My presence. Let people know by your actions that you are one of mine.

Don't forget; I am God and can take care of Myself. Just love Me and do what I have told you to do. I'll take care of all the rest. Check out the list above and get to work; time is short. I'll help you, but the ball is now in your court. And do have a most blessed Christmas with all those whom you love and remember :

I LOVE YOU

Dr. Arbitrary posted:

I just got one from my grandma that surprised me, it's almost baffling how reasonable it is.


I was totally expecting a whiny email about X-mas, holiday trees and Santa.

Captain Libertopia posted:

Once again... I didnt have to go more then 3 sentences without seeing the flaw in your thinking.... There shouldn't be benefits of marriage because... its your voluntary choice. Its not a job, its not career, its a life choice... smokers do not gain benefis, neither should people who get married. Because you're limited in your historical ... See Morecorrectness I'll make it easy for you, so that way you dont need to think much or go into ridiculous website browsing for answers. Marriage should be a religious issue only. No benefits should be attained in getting married. The governments only ploy on marriage is to add taxes, these taxes mostly being income tax (unconstitutional but i dont the energy or time to go into it) and death tax (also unconstitutonal) and these should be done away with too... These "rights" people always argue for and against are not rights, they are government controlled entitlements created by 20th century progressives who hate God given rights.

George Washington was married without a marriage license from the state, as were all our founding fathers, they enjoyed marriage freedom. This all changed in 1923 with the creation of Uniform Marriage and Marriage License Act, by 1929 every state in the union had adopted marriage licenses... and marriage tyranny. Before 1929 these ridiculous entitlment system didnt exist. When people fear the government there is slavery, when government fear the people there is slavery... This marriage "equality" is just more tyranny... all people will not be abled to be equal as they as many polygmast couples will still be denied their "rights"

this is what happens when the state has the power to grant marriage licenses:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...15875-21754683/

EggsofSteel posted:

Well, the guy I was debating on facebook ended up being some crazed libertarian. A lot of fun ensues. I broke up his blocks of text a little better:

EggsofSteel posted:

Well, the guy I was debating on facebook ended up being some crazed libertarian. A lot of fun ensues. I broke up his blocks of text a little better:

Gripen5 posted:

I still don't understand at all, the libertarian definition of the word tyranny. I suppose it is like the conservative use of the word liberal. A catch all word for stuff/people I don't like.

chesh posted:

But he could never tell me how he defined community. Is it your house? Your block? Your neighborhood? Where does the neighborhood end? Is it your city? Your state? Country? I think it's an essential question I've never gotten a straight answer to, but I know it stops short of "the planet Earth."

quote:

1. The American Cemetery at Aisne-Marne , France . A total of 2289 of our military dead.
http://www.abmc.gov/images/am1w.jpg
2. The American Cemetery at Ardennes , Belgium . A total of 5329 of our dead.
3. The American Cemetery at Brittany, France . A total of 4410 of our military dead. Excuse us.

4. Brookwood , England American Cemetery. A total of 468 of our dead.
5. Cambridge , England . 3812 of our military dead.
http://www.abmc.gov/images/ca2w.jpg
6. Epinal , France American Cemetery. A total of 5525 of our Military dead.
http://www.abmc.gov/images/ep3w.jpg
7. Flanders Field , Belgium . A total of 368 of our military.
8. Florence , Italy . A total of 4402 of our military dead.
http://www.abmc.gov/images/fl1w.jpg
9. Henri-Chapelle , Belgium . A total of 7992 of our military dead.
http://www.abmc.gov/images/hc4w.jpg
10. Lorraine , France . A total of 10,489 of our military dead.
http://www.abmc.gov/images/lo3w.jpg
11. Luxembourg , Luxembourg . A total of 5076 of our military dead.
http://www.abmc.gov/images/lx1w.jpg
12. Meuse-Argonne. A total of 14246 of our military dead.
13. Netherlands , Netherlands . A total of 8301 of our military dead.
14.. Normandy , France . A total of 9387 of our military dead.
http://www.abmc.gov/images/no3w.jpg
15. Oise-Aisne , France . A total of 6012 of our military dead.
http://www.abmc.gov/images/oa3w.jpg
16. Rhone , France . A total of 861 of our military dead.
http://www.abmc.gov/images/rh3w.jpg
17. Sicily , Italy . A total of 7861 of our military dead.
http://www.abmc.gov/images/sr1w.jpg
18. Somme , France . A total of 1844 of our military dead.
http://www.abmc.gov/images/so3w.jpg
19. St. Mihiel , France . A total of 4153 of our military dead.
http://www.abmc.gov/images/sm1w.jpg
20. Suresnes , France . a total of 1541 of our military dead.
http://www.abmc.gov/images/su1w.jpg
Apologize to no one. Remind those of our sacrifice and don't confuse arrogance with leadership.
If I added correctly the count is 104,366 dead.

And we have to watch an American elected leader, who has sacrificed nothing himself, but has taken handouts for college, housing, and everything else he has, apologize to Europe and the Middle East that our country is "arrogant"! That’s on-the-job training for you America!

HOW MANY FRENCH, DUTCH, ITALIANS, BELGIANS AND BRITS ARE BURIED ON OUR SOIL, DEFENDING US AGAINST OUR ENEMIES?? WE DON'T ASK FOR PRAISE ... BUT WE HAVE ABSOULUTELY NO NEED TO APOLOGIZE!!

Heatmonger posted:

Guys, the fact that the US intervened in WWII almost 70 years ago totally means it's ok for the United States government to do whatever the hell they'd like with no regard for international law in the present day!


Oh and Obama was a welfare case...he's president because of affirmative action don'tchaknow?

crime fighting hog posted:

If amount of military dead=political clout then why aren't we all speaking Russian right now?

EggsofSteel posted:

Well, the guy I was debating on facebook ended up being some crazed libertarian. A lot of fun ensues. I broke up his blocks of text a little better:

Heatmonger posted:

And we have to watch an American elected leader, who has sacrificed nothing himself, but has taken handouts for college, housing, and everything else he has, apologize to Europe and the Middle East that our country is "arrogant"! That’s on-the-job training for you America!

quote:

WW II Battleship sailor tells Obama to shape up or ship out !

This venerable and much honored WW II vet is well known in Hawaii
for his seventy-plus years of service to patriotic organizations and causes
all over the country. A humble man without a political bone in his body,
he has never spoken out before about a government official, until now.
He dictated this letter to a friend, signed it and mailed it to the president.

Dear President Obama,

My name is Harold Estes, approaching 95 on December 13 of this year. People meeting me for the first time don't believe my age because I remain wrinkle free and pretty much mentally alert.

I enlisted in the U.S. Navy in 1934 and served proudly before, during and after WW II retiring as a Master Chief Bos'n Mate. Now I live in a "rest home" located on the western end of Pearl Harbor, allowing me to keep alive the memories of 23 years of service to my country.

One of the benefits of my age, perhaps the only one, is to speak my mind, blunt and direct even to the head man.

So here goes.

I am amazed, angry and determined not to see my country die before I do, but you seem hell bent not to grant me that wish.

I can't figure out what country you are the president of.You fly around the world telling our friends and enemies despicable lies like:
" We're no longer a Christian nation"
" America is arrogant" - (Your wife even
announced to the world,"America is mean-
spirited. " Please tell her to try preaching
that nonsense to 23 generations of our
war dead buried all over the globe who
died for no other reason than to free a
whole lot of strangers from tyranny and
hopelessness.)
I'd say shame on the both of you, but I don't think you like America, nor do I see an ounce of gratefulness in anything you do, for the obvious gifts this country has given you. To be without shame or gratefulness is a dangerous thing for a man sitting in the White House.

After 9/11 you said," America hasn't lived up to her ideals."

Which ones did you mean? Was it the notion of personal liberty that 11,000 farmers and shopkeepers died for to win independence from the British? Or maybe the ideal that no man should be a slave to another man, that 500,000 men died for in the Civil War? I hope you didn't mean the ideal 470,000 fathers, brothers, husbands, and a lot of fellas I knew personally died for in WWII, because we felt real strongly about not letting any nation push us around, because we stand for freedom.

I don't think you mean the ideal that says equality is better than discrimination. You know the one that a whole lot of white people understood when they helped to get you elected.

Take a little advice from a very old geezer, young man.

Shape up and start acting like an American. If you don't, I'll do what I can to see you get shipped out of that fancy rental on Pennsylvania Avenue. You were elected to lead not to bow, apologize and kiss the hands of murderers and corrupt leaders who still treat their people like slaves.

And just who do you think you are telling the American people not to jump to conclusions and condemn that Muslim major who killed 13 of his fellow soldiers and wounded dozens more. You mean you don't want us to do what you did when that white cop used force to subdue that black college professor in Massachusetts, who was putting up a fight? You don't mind offending the police calling them stupid but you don't want us to offend Muslim fanatics by calling them what they are, terrorists.

One more thing. I realize you never served in the military and never had to defend your country with your life, but you're the Commander-in-Chief now, son. Do your job. When your battle-hardened field General asks you for 40,000 more troops to complete the mission, give them to him. But if you're not in this fight to win, then get out. The life of one American soldier is not worth the best political strategy you're thinking of.

You could be our greatest president because you face the greatest challenge ever presented to any president. You're not going to restore American greatness by bringing back our bloated economy. That's not our greatest threat. Losing the heart and soul of who we are as Americans is our big fight now. And I sure as hell don't want to think my president is the enemy in this final battle.

Sincerely,
Harold B. Estes

When a 95 year old hero of the "the Greatest Generation"
stands up and speaks out like this, I think we owe it
to him to send his words to as many Americans as
we can. Please pass it on.

Armyman25 posted:

It's a real letter.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/haroldestes.asp

Pungent Mammy posted:

tek79 posted:

This type of chain email is particularly obnoxious and seems to be a common theme. It basically assumes that you can throw together any poo poo pile of conservative talking point nonsense into one letter/email, and so long as the "author" served in the military (or shits red, white and blue in his depends), that anything in said letter has unquestionable credence.

Moinkmaster posted:

Has anyone ever gotten a mail like this, but from a left-leaning veteran?

Mongoloid Retard posted:

Tort reform!!!!~ BLARRGH LITIGOOUS SOCIALEST BLARGH BLARGH BLARGH!

A convenient prepackaged reply posted:

The first thing we have to do a sanity check. We have to compare the total cost of torts with the total cost of healthcare to figure out if it is possible to make a meaningful difference. There are a couple of studies (included at the end) that cite tort costs for 2005 at $30 billion and $11.5 billion. Both studies use different methods to get there, and neither is contested by advocates of tort reform. Contrasting that with the $1.9 trillion spent on healthcare in the same year the emphasis on tort reform seems ridiculous. So how has the issue managed to get traction?

Neither of those studies claim to account for defensive medicine. Defensive medicine is the notion that a physician will change their clinical behavior to avoid exposure to malpractice claims. As might be suspected, it is nearly impossible to get a good picture of the true cost of defensive medicine. There are a couple of studies that survey physicians to try and get a grasp on how pervasive the issue might be. In one study 76% of 300 respondents claimed to alter their clinical behavior. In the other study it was 93%. However, neither study hazards a guess as to the actual cost of these deviations, since, given the nature of the work conducted it is impossible. This is where things get incredibly sketchy. There are only a couple numbers available for estimates in the cost of defensive medicine. The Department of Health and Human Services claims $126 billion in 2003, and Price Waterhouse Coopers claims $210 billion for 2008. These are significant numbers that add up to about 10% of all healthcare costs and make a compelling case for tort reform as cost control. The center piece of both claims is a study by Kessler and McClellan in 1996. The work of Kessler-McClellan relied on a set of data collected in 1984. The premise was that they would compare clinical practice in states with disparate tort laws. The work is widely criticized, but I think it is especially noteworthy that in 2004 the Congressional Budget Office was completely unable to reproduce similar results from the same data.

The net here is that without Kessler and McClellan, there is no case for tort reform. I will acknowledge that just because we don't know what the cost of defensive medicine is, that does not mean that it isn't there. Now I will make the case against tort reform. According to a 2000 study by the Institute of Medicine there were more than 44,000 deaths in 1997 from medical errors during hospitalizations alone. To put it in perspective that would be the 8th leading cause of death just ahead of automobile accidents. This was a landmark study responsible for the creation of the entire modern field of patient safety. Injuries are estimated to be more than one million annually. According to the DHHS, in the year 2002, only 18,999 payments were made for medical malpractice claims. This number must be low because the average payout would have been $1.2 million for that year which is far too high. Even if we generously assume that four times this number of payments were made (bringing the average payout to $300,000), roughly 75,000 payments, that means that 86% of all medical errors go uncompensated. To me, this indicates that tort reform should actually be about relaxing the rules and requirements for bringing a suit, not further restricting them.

Finally, we can use tort reform to strengthen the case for single payer. According to a study by Studdert based on jury awards in California, real economic damages account for 90% of malpractice suit awards. Economic damages include lost wages and the cost of future medical care resulting from the error in question. Under a single payer system real economic damages would be reduced by eliminating the portion of the award allocated for future medical care.

Sources:
http://www.towersperrin.com/tp/getwebcachedoc?webc=TILL/USA/2006/200611/Tort_2006_FINAL.pdf
http://insurance-reform.org/TrueRiskF.pdf
http://www.aaos.org/news/bulletin/janfeb07/clinical2.asp
http://www.justice.org/resources/Medical_Negligence_-_Defensive_Medicine.pdf
http://www.nationaljournal.com/njonline/no_20090831_5711.php
http://www.psnet.ahrq.gov/resource.aspx?resourceID=1579
http://content.healthaffairs.org/cg...ourcetype=HWCIT

jackpot posted:

Next up: Remembering Shiloh, and possibly Remembering the Battle of Long Island.



Someone get Japan on the phone and let them know that America forgives them for the deaths they caused in WW2.

TehSaurus posted:

Ask him if he's asked for forgiveness for dropping the bomb.