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lokigoesrawr posted:Off to prep for Road Atlanta this weekend. If anyone's been there before, any tips? 
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Dec 10, 2009 15:22
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The last page was a good read in terms of advice, certainly highlighted a couple of aspects of my own riding to work on. Since my last questioning of Z3n, I've put some Techspec on the bike and found it certainly does help. Still need a bit more work keeping my weight off the inside peg though - I think I tend to carry a bit too much weight on the knee slider (weight the tyres should have instead). While we're posting photos, this is from a fun session a few weeks back at one of our smaller tracks:  Going back to the larger track in 10 days time. I need to start making more extensive use of the gearbox and less extensive use of the brakes. I'm fine with leaning the bike over, but I usually tend to brake much more than I need to for a corner, and subsequently end up with miles of extra room on corner exits.
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Dec 10, 2009 15:41
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I'm taking the SM out to an arenacross practice this weekend. Time to work some dirt into my leathers. Probably my mouth and nose too.
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Dec 10, 2009 17:22
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lokigoesrawr posted:Ohhhhhhhhhhh, I don't know why I didn't see that before. That makes a lot of sense. I'll work on squaring up and locking in after focusing on lines/inputs/consistency. Honestly, I'd say you're best off just sort of forgetting about body positioning as much as possible. The only reason I even mention anything about it is because getting a knee down is a useful technique on the track. Once you get comfortable you will start being able to flick the bike to your knee, which is fantastic for your comfort on corner entry. I use it because I like to trailbrake until my knee goes down. It's a lean angle indicator, and that's really, really useful as you start to speed up. Besides that, body position is essentially irrelevant until you start either sliding the bike on corner exit or dragging hard parts midcorner. Even if you're dragging parts, most of the time that's because of poo poo lines and body positioning isn't going to help that. quote:I think I need to remount my techspecs higher. I stuck them on there about in the middle of the tank. I almost feel like my outside leg would slip, but I'm not sure if that's just in my head. You should mount your techspecs so that your knee(s) can lock securely in place under 2 situations: On the brakes and midcorner. Get the bike securely on the stand, hang off as correctly as you can, and see where they should be. quote:Anyway, I've got my list of things to work on at Road Atlanta Fri/Sat/Sun. Might get some rain. I might request more of your seemingly infinite wisdom after the weekend if you're willing. Thanks again! I'd highly recommend checking out Twist of the Wrist 2 by Keith Code (not the first one) if you haven't already. It's available online and usually big bookstores will have a copy. Work on one chapter each day at the track. On rain riding, focus on being as smooth as possible. You'll learn a lot about traction and exactly how important it is to be smooth. That's not to say you shouldn't end up using a lot of gas and brake, just that you should feel it out much more carefully than you would in the dry. Be careful when the rain just starts to fall too, the track is at it's slickest then. And trust me, the knowledge is nowhere near infinite, haha. And it runs out all too often, god knows I've had enough crashes to prove that.  And I'm slow on top of it. But I can tell some pretty convincing lies.  I'll be here if you want more advice, after all, I spend most of my daydreaming about the track anyways. FlyinDoc posted:Still need a bit more work keeping my weight off the inside peg though - I think I tend to carry a bit too much weight on the knee slider (weight the tyres should have instead). I used to do this a lot, but the best thing to do is to tap your knee and lift, tap and lift. The only reason you should ever put weight over your knee is if the front end has started to drift and you're trying to keep the bike upright until it comes back. If you've got weight over it and you smack it into the ground, then you're going to introduce a lot of instability into the chassis and could even end up losing traction if you're close to the limit. Not to mention that if your lines are really good and there's no internal curbing, jamming your knee into the dirt hurts, and you'll never be able to properly tuck up against the curbing if you're not comfortable lifting it as needed. Plus, a lot of people tend to lean the bike till their knee goes down and then stop, limiting their lean angle artificially. Your knee is lean angle indicator one, your toe slider should be the second one, and your peg should be the final one. Knee down with decent body positioning can be done at 30 degrees of lean or less, and you've got up to at least 45 degrees if not more, depending on your tires. Edit: Here's me and one of my friends following each other at Thill. We're going roughly the same speed, he's got his elbow on the ground, and I haven't even gotten a knee down yet.  Click here for the full 1024x683 image. Edit2: Here's another example of body positioning types: Aggressive upper body, evenly matched, and crossed up.  Click here for the full 1024x683 image. At the time I was the fastest in our group of friends. Now my friend with the middling body position is the fastest. So body positioning doesn't have much to do with speed. Z3n fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Dec 10, 2009 |
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Dec 10, 2009 17:46
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lokigoesrawr posted:Yup, it's a 2-piece, cheaper non-perf'd option A. Held up pretty well, wore down in a bunch of spots, minor seam separation on the left butt after being ground down. Did its job really well. Clean fall--wasn't even sore anywhere. Mine was a lowside that was about three feet on pavement and the rest in the super-fine dust at Thunderhill here in CA. I tore up the stretch panels a bit, scuffed the leather, and coated the thing in dust (which I should really get around to washing off...). Tore the gently caress out of the Tilt logo patch on the left shoulder too. Came out of it without a mark on me.
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Dec 10, 2009 23:12
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A couple laps from arenacross practice. http://vimeo.com/8143793 I could only do 3 or 4 laps at a time because it was so tiring, but oh what fun.
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Dec 13, 2009 01:27
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Zool posted:A couple laps from arenacross practice. http://vimeo.com/8143793 Kickass...how many time did you crash?  Looking a lot better than you did before...Hopefully you can show me the ropes on the dirt section when I make it up there.
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Dec 13, 2009 02:03
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Zool posted:A couple laps from arenacross practice. http://vimeo.com/8143793 I couldn't quite tell but are you running sumo tires? How does that perform on an all dirt track?
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Dec 13, 2009 02:16
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needknees posted:I couldn't quite tell but are you running sumo tires? How does that perform on an all dirt track? Avon Distanzias.  I got around the track, but they can't compete with knobbies. I could never clear the small tabletop because I didn't have enough grip to carry any speed through the corner before it. Z3n, twice. My first time through the stutter section, and once while getting on the throttle before the big table top I just whipped a 180. I broke a handguard (again), and my boot got caught on my DIY heat shield and tore off the shield and part of the rear plastics.
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Dec 13, 2009 04:19
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Zool posted:Avon Distanzias. I was wondering about that. You were so close to being able to clear it but you fell just a bit short. Arg, I need to buy a supermoto.
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Dec 13, 2009 04:34
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I know where you can get a really sweet DRZ... Speaking of, I probably should have rocked the DRZ out there today. Although the rear tire doesnt quite have enough tread to hope to pick up in soft arenacross dirt.
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Dec 13, 2009 04:38
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So, I highsided a couple of days ago. I'm ok but sore (thanks HJC, Knox, and Joe Rocket), and the bike also escaped with surprisingly little damage, owing largely to the sliders on the frame, engine case, and swingarm. My biggest expense by far will be a new helmet. I was accelerating out of a turn, 4th gear maybe 9 or 10k rpm, rolling on the throttle like usual, and a moment later I was airborne. It felt to me like the back end suddenly whipped waaaay out of line, and I barely remember registering this before being flung off. However, it was the first time the rear wheel has ever broken loose on me, so in hindsight it is quite possible that it didn't step out as far as it felt to me, and it's also possible that I wrongly closed the throttle on instinct (though I honestly don't recall doing so, it seemed to happen too quickly for me to have reacted). Basically, does someone with more experience have any pointers as to how to avoid a highside if the rear wheel goes? I know the basic theory is "ignore it and stay on the power", but there must be at least a little more to it. I had been planning on shimming the rear shock ride height in future for better turn-in, but the reading I've done indicates that this would exacerbate any problems with rear wheel traction by reducing weight on the rear, so that's off the list. When I had my suspension dialled in, the guy doing it told me that compression is something he could only have an educated guess at, and that I'd have to adjust it myself later if the bike was doing something I didn't like. The general message I got from him was that too little rear compression would make the rear wheel feel unstable and slip around more easily, whereas too much would make it feel stable but then slip out very suddenly once it did go. If that's right, it seems to me that I need to back the compression damping off a bit. If it's of any use in answering my question, bike is an 02 GSXR 600, stock suspension and stock geometry, new-ish 2CT pilot power front, older regular pilot power rear, wheelbase out near the end of the swingarm as the chain is due for replacement soon. FlyinDoc fucked around with this message at 05:39 on Dec 22, 2009 |
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Dec 22, 2009 05:29
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What pace are you running? What time in the day was it when you crashed and how were conditions? What pressures were you running?
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Dec 22, 2009 05:37
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Pace, unsure really. They run trackdays as 4 groups here (4th being most experienced, and largely made up of racers getting additional practice), and I book for the 2nd group, though I tend to be one of the quicker riders in it, and had been planning on moving up in the near future. It was probably 1pm or 2pm, clear hot sunny day maybe 35-38°C. Tyre pressures were 29psi up front and 31psi rear.
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Dec 22, 2009 05:43
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FlyinDoc posted:Pace, unsure really. They run trackdays as 4 groups here (4th being most experienced, and largely made up of racers getting additional practice), and I book for the 2nd group, though I tend to be one of the quicker riders in it, and had been planning on moving up in the near future. Lotta  coming here. So we can essentially establish that you were running a reasonably quick pace, although not racing fast, that it was a pretty drat hot day, and you're running street tires. That's pretty much a recipe for ending up on your head as you exceed the limits of the tires. It's still your fault because you should have read the tire better, but it's understandable that you ended up crashing as a result of it, as street tires aren't nearly as forgiving about going off as dedicated track/race tires are, and you're pushing your personal limits at the same time. If the general level of the riders out there is around the same out there as it is out here, you are past the limit of running street tires on the track, as someone who's learning and getting faster. You will get people who will say that tire xyz is good for a faster pace than you're running, but that's not taking into account your personal limits as a rider. A high level rider will identify and be able to ride around the weak spots of a particular tire, and because the overall lap time will be slower than their personal limit, will be easily capable of identifying and preventing problems like the tires cooking by choosing which corners they push and which corners they take a little less aggressively. Crashes like yours (I almost had one exactly like what you describe, I just got lucky and didn't end up crashing) are why I try to get people to move up to DOT Race tires as soon as possible. quote:Basically, does someone with more experience have any pointers as to how to avoid a highside if the rear wheel goes? I know the basic theory is "ignore it and stay on the power", but there must be at least a little more to it. Ok, to answer this, there is another part of the technique that people often forget. You should only be adding throttle (past maintenance throttle) when you are also reducing lean angle. This is key. If you are feeding in throttle while still leaned over, you are just eating into your available traction and once you exceed it, any slide is going to be very quick and hard to predict and feel, as you're passing the limit and not giving the tire any chance to regain traction. You can get away with bad technique like this when you're a newer rider and you're nowhere near the limits of traction and your tires. People are especially susceptible to it in high speed corners, as they tend to overbrake and then be way over aggressive with the throttle once they realize how much faster they could be going. As an example: You're using 70% of your available traction in lean angle, and you give it enough throttle to use 25% of the remaining traction. Life is good. You give it a little more throttle, and suddenly the throttle needs 35% of available traction. With the 70% you're using to get through the corner, plus the 35%, you're now at 105% of available traction and the bike is sliding. Because the only way to stop it sliding is to back off the throttle or stand the bike up, and backing off the throttle is probably gonna highside you, and if you're committed to the corner you're not gonna be standing it up... Playing that limit is key to getting off a corner well, and a skill that takes a lifetime to master. If you do it just right, you'll have the bike just on the edge of sliding as you drive and stand it up at the same time. Those big powerslides are impressive but ultimately slower as the tire's spinning rather than driving. Did I explain it coherently? It's been kind of a long weekend.  Edit: Also, dirt riding and supermoto is a great way to ingrain the correct responses to a motorcycle starting to slide. There's a reason most of the GP grid does supermoto, flattracking, or some form of dirt riding. Z3n fucked around with this message at 07:33 on Dec 22, 2009 |
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Dec 22, 2009 06:51
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Good explanation Z3n, and with the risk of sounding hokey, I'd like to thank you for being such a great resource for this forum.
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Dec 22, 2009 07:12
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I understand the relationship between throttle and lean angle, but there is another aspect (though of course, I crashed because of too much lean and throttle in combination, no doubt about that): The corner in question is U-shaped and very heavily cambered towards the exit, allowing you to put down a lot more power on the way out even though your lean angle isn't decreasing that much. In the past I've rolled the power on through there and been WOT by the time I'm roughly 2/3rds around the corner, lap after lap with no problems. This time, I guess I was going a little bit quicker, putting me both at a greater lean angle and higher into the powerband, the combination of which broke the rear tyre loose. I completely understand that a powerslide is slower, and don't mean to intentionally repeat it. I was wondering if there's anything else you can do to help recover a rear wheel slide without crashing, apart from staying on the throttle. Standing the bike up a bit maybe? I'd rather take my chances with running wide versus a highside, at least you have a sporting chance of keeping upright if you stand the bike up and go onto the grass. Unfortunately, as a university student the bike is my sole means of transport, so I currently can't work the logistics of using race slicks, stands, and tyre warmers for the track (yes, some would certainly say I shouldn't be doing trackdays). Even ignoring the warmers problem (i.e. number of heat cycles), the bulk of my riding is on the road, so I can't really justify race tyres, even if some are technically road legal. Same goes for buying a dirtbike or supermoto - I'd love to do it, but lack the money. I guess it just means I keep the trackdays less frequent from now on and my pace a bit more sedate. For the next couple of years anyway. Thanks for the advice Z3n, I'd like to thank you for being a great resource too. FlyinDoc fucked around with this message at 10:29 on Dec 22, 2009 |
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Dec 22, 2009 10:16
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All I can say is that I can't wait for spring and track days on the DRZ. All this talk makes me so jealous.
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Dec 22, 2009 18:53
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cmorrow001 posted:All I can say is that I can't wait for spring and track days on the DRZ. All this talk makes me so jealous. I know There are two supermotos and 8 pairs of slicks just waiting for the sun to come back so they can go play. Plus me and the duc are eagerly eying the big boy track. *sigh*
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Dec 22, 2009 18:57
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Finally got around to splicing up some footage from a couple weekends ago at Road Atlanta with NESBA. Temps were freezing or in the low-30s, but tamer in the late afternoon after the tarmac had some time to absorb the sun. Started out first session Friday trying to learn the track, and got down to a 2:20. Ended up running consistent 2:07s by the end of the day. Reviewed video and laptimes in the downtime, preparing for the next day, trying to figure out what to improve. Weather reports weren't too optimistic for Saturday and Sunday, but thankfully we ended up getting 3-4 good sessions in Saturday morning. There were a few people in the beginner group that were way faster than me, but I got to the point where I was one of the faster people in B class. A group was running ~1:40s, I group somewhere in between. Video has footage of my last two laps on Friday (Hero HD dashcam) and my PB 2:03.9 Sunday (Contour720 asscam--sorry about the wind noise). Slapped on timers in Vegas for diagnosis. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3M2lOoaNS0 I had a couple instances (not on vid) between apex-exit where my front end skipped out a little and caught back up, lap 2 or 3 on a run session, which terrified me. Dunlop Q2s 26F/27R-ish cold. I'm thinking cold tires. Tire temps after run sessions were barely warm to the touch. After re-watching my footage, I felt like turn-ins were way late on many crucial turns before straights, missing apexes by a good bit. Also, I have a problem with creeping in on entry--no crisp point of turn-in. Could have carried much more speed through turns, but I was constantly afraid of leaning the bike over much. At the end of the asscam lap, I pass a guy on the front straight cruising on a 1000. I should have gone outside, but already made the commitment and got stuck on the inside line. Afraid to cut him off, I hold inside, brake, consider taking T1, panic, drag brakes in and somehow don't go off. Probably could have made the turn easily at that speed, but I guess I was really lacking confidence in the tires or something. The guy that I cut off was very understanding. The CR that looks back congratulates me post-session for "saving it". I tried to work on pinning WOT while straight up, and felt like I did a lot better compared to the previous week at Jennings, but still had a mental block accelerating in 6th on the back straight into the the blind downhill kink. Got a little better on Saturday. Took the advice of a CR to shift your butt over before the kink and deploying the knee sail as you turned in. I'm dripping in adrenaline thinking about it--so much wind resistance. Supported my weight with outside knee on tank instead of the inside peg for the first time. Felt so much more stable and confidence inspiring. Still need to work on not rotating my hips so I can eventually touch a knee. More upper body, too. As always, I'd be grateful for any sort of input.
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Dec 22, 2009 21:29
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I can't offer much in the way of advice (track newb...) but... looking pretty good man . How was it running that fast in those temps, comfortwise? Perfed leathers? Also, what are you using to edit your videos and how did you get the timer in there? I recently picked up a GoProHD and am looking for some editing software.
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Dec 22, 2009 23:33
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I can't give any real constructive feedback, I'll leave that to our resident wall of text. Good on you for going at a good clip in such cold weather. I'd be pretty shaken if I came back in after a session and my tires were luke warm. Not a lot of faith. The scrolling 'oh god oh god oh god oh god oh god' cracked me up. Been there. Thought that.
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Dec 22, 2009 23:46
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needknees posted:I can't offer much in the way of advice (track newb...) but... looking pretty good man Spiffness posted:I can't give any real constructive feedback, I'll leave that to our resident wall of text. Good on you for going at a good clip in such cold weather. I'd be pretty shaken if I came back in after a session and my tires were luke warm. Not a lot of faith. Thanks guys! Thankfully non-perf'd suit. Turtleneck helped a bit. Saw a lot of scarves. I wore a sweater over my suit Saturday morning. In one of the sessions, a CR wore this yellow Walmart special raincoat presumably as a windbreaker. A few laps later we get a waving red-striped yellow flag (debris) before the straightaway. Freaked me out the first time around thinking someone had shattered fairings all over the track. Really though, nothing was bad as the freezing hands. Despite knowing better, I only measured tire pressures maybe once or twice. After taking my gloves off, I briefly felt the tires, and promptly ran to the space heater to thaw out my hands. After a few minutes of camping in front of heater, the sensation of pain would come back in the finger tips -- from being entirely numb through the knuckles. My buddy and I had little motivation to do much other than be little pussies in front of the heater for 30-40 minutes until they made second or third call for our group over the PA. I was fine later, but my buddy's fingers were all swollen from frost bite the next morning.  Also, protip: blue nitrile gloves dabbed with baby powder under the gauntlets work magnificently I think you'll like the GoPro HD. Much clunkier form factor than the ContourHD, but I like it a lot better. Seemingly much less compression on the recordings--easier to play and seek through on my old laptop. The Contour also had some issues with dropping active recordings. Pseudo-documented battery issue causing a lot of anguish. Ran out of battery on the GoPro once, missing out on some good footage. Haven't been able to find extra batteries for the GoPro HD online. I've been attempting to use Sony Vegas Pro 9 for editing. I've heard it's easier to learn than Adobe Premiere. On the timeline, I split (hotkey: 's') the footage close to the finish line, then drag the 'timecode' media fx from the top window onto each segment. Send me a PM if you want any help with finding software.
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Dec 23, 2009 02:04
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That was a great video. You actually have a sense of sound mix as well, no other account on youtube has ever demonstrated this. I'm pretty sold on the GoPro now, the slightly muffled-behind-plastic sound is a fair tradeoff to the other features. I will try my point&shoot with cellphone recording sound before I buy anything, but when I do - GoPro it is.
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Dec 23, 2009 13:22
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I'm off to a cold day at the track! 
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Dec 23, 2009 14:02
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FlyinDoc posted:I understand the relationship between throttle and lean angle, but there is another aspect (though of course, I crashed because of too much lean and throttle in combination, no doubt about that): Alright, just wanted to make sure. quote:The corner in question is U-shaped and very heavily cambered towards the exit, allowing you to put down a lot more power on the way out even though your lean angle isn't decreasing that much. In the past I've rolled the power on through there and been WOT by the time I'm roughly 2/3rds around the corner, lap after lap with no problems. Ahh, you know, I thought about addressing camber in my previous post but figured it probably wasn't relevant...that'll teach me to try and keep my walls short. Camber is interesting because people are immediately very comfortable in it, but they also tend to forget that eventually it goes away. People tend to power hard out of on camber corners, thanks to the confidence that you've gotten from the good camber earlier in the corners. The problem with this is that if the camber levels out fast enough, you can be obeying the throttle rules of reducing lean while increasing throttle, but still lose traction as the track effectively increases your lean angle as the camber goes away. Line selection on corner exit of on camber corners is super important for this reason, sometimes a non-traditional line allows you to stand the bike up earlier and drive out harder, even if it doesn't seem to match the ideal line. As always, the indicator for the best line is that it lets you get on the throttle earlier and harder. If you highsided earlier in the corner, before it started to level out, I'd personally lean more towards thinking the tires were a bigger factor, if you highsided late in the corner, more towards the exit as it levels out, camber was probably a big contributing factor. quote:This time, I guess I was going a little bit quicker, putting me both at a greater lean angle and higher into the powerband, the combination of which broke the rear tyre loose. That's the other thing, and why it's so important to train good, smooth habits...when you go faster you rarely feel like you're actually going faster, so having those good habits of being smooth on the throttle can help you recover slides before they become crashes. It's also why it's important to work on good lines early on as well, because they almost never get better the more you push your limits. quote:I completely understand that a powerslide is slower, and don't mean to intentionally repeat it. I was wondering if there's anything else you can do to help recover a rear wheel slide without crashing, apart from staying on the throttle. Standing the bike up a bit maybe? I'd rather take my chances with running wide versus a highside, at least you have a sporting chance of keeping upright if you stand the bike up and go onto the grass. Standing the bike up more is a good option, but...how do you do that without running wide? Pick the bike up more with your body positioning. Pedrosa has the most dramatic change from body positioning midcorner to exit, so he's a good example of it. Here's Pedrosa on entrance. Note his body position, chin over the honda badge on the tank, elbow higher than his knee.  Click here for the full 1024x768 image. Here he is on corner exit, on the gas. Note that he's dropped the inside elbow down to where it's even with his knee, the inside of his helmet is actually past the honda badge on the tank, and his entire body has shifted to the inside and lower.  Click here for the full 1280x853 image. This helps you get on the fat part of the tire earlier in the corner, and combined with weighting the outside peg on corner exit, can help you avoid slides or bring them back in line. Besides that, the other important thing with slides is to be smooth in your application of the throttle, if you feel the bike start to slide, you can then hold the throttle where it is, let the bike get a bit more upright, and it'll come back in line with a minimum of drama. quote:Unfortunately, as a university student the bike is my sole means of transport, so I currently can't work the logistics of using race slicks, stands, and tyre warmers for the track (yes, some would certainly say I shouldn't be doing trackdays). Even ignoring the warmers problem (i.e. number of heat cycles), the bulk of my riding is on the road, so I can't really justify race tyres, even if some are technically road legal. Well, there's another option: Pick up a spare set of rims and toss some DOT Race tires on them. When you want to go to the track, pop the bike up on stands or use a jack to get one wheel off the ground at a time, move your sticky stuff on the bike, and then when you get back, swap back to the street stuff. DOT Race tires don't require tire warmers. In the end it's better all around, because you're not making a compromise on your street tires with your trackdays in mind. I rode the track for a number of years while I was a student, and faced the same problems as you...in the end, I just ended up throwing a lot of money at tires, rather than doing the smart thing and finding a second set of rims. quote:Thanks for the advice Z3n, I'd like to thank you for being a great resource too. No problem lokigoesrawr posted:Finally got around to splicing up some footage from a couple weekends ago at Road Atlanta with NESBA. Temps were freezing or in the low-30s, but tamer in the late afternoon after the tarmac had some time to absorb the sun. Good improvement! Enjoy it, and don't get discouraged when it starts to get harder to drop time...the earlier seconds come much easier than the later ones. quote:Video has footage of my last two laps on Friday (Hero HD dashcam) and my PB 2:03.9 Sunday (Contour720 asscam--sorry about the wind noise). Slapped on timers in Vegas for diagnosis. You're starting to think about your analysis, which is the best thing that you can do. I don't really have too much to say here beyond that, when you're dealing with really, really crappy conditions it's hard to make a good evaluation about where and when you can improve, as all of the assumptions that I can make about available traction and lean angle kinda go out the window. quote:At the end of the asscam lap, I pass a guy on the front straight cruising on a 1000. I should have gone outside, but already made the commitment and got stuck on the inside line. Afraid to cut him off, I hold inside, brake, consider taking T1, panic, drag brakes in and somehow don't go off. Probably could have made the turn easily at that speed, but I guess I was really lacking confidence in the tires or something. The guy that I cut off was very understanding. The CR that looks back congratulates me post-session for "saving it". You could have swung a little bit wider on entrance there without blocking him, but you made it through ok. Good job on not falling victim to panic and recovering it. quote:I tried to work on pinning WOT while straight up, and felt like I did a lot better compared to the previous week at Jennings, but still had a mental block accelerating in 6th on the back straight into the the blind downhill kink. Got a little better on Saturday. Took the advice of a CR to shift your butt over before the kink and deploying the knee sail as you turned in. I'm dripping in adrenaline thinking about it--so much wind resistance. There was a big difference there, really good improvement on being on the throttle. It's always best to make up time while you're upright, it's very low risk. Same why it's best to make up time in fast corners rather than slow ones... pushing 5% faster in a 100mph corner is much lower risk for a lot more reward than a 20% improvement in a 20mph corner. quote:Supported my weight with outside knee on tank instead of the inside peg for the first time. Felt so much more stable and confidence inspiring. Still need to work on not rotating my hips so I can eventually touch a knee. More upper body, too. Days like the one you were riding on are not the days to be worrying about getting a knee down. Good job on focusing on the right things on a day like this...getting good lines, good application of the throttle, improvements in body positioning, and you got a lot of decrease in your times as a result. Well done. Although the street tires were probably more of a help than a hinderance on a day like that, you should get some DOT race tires too. It's always good to have your hardware be a step ahead of you, it'll help compensate when you make stupid mistakes. Z3n fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Dec 23, 2009 |
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Dec 23, 2009 19:28
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I hadn't considered the camber to be as much of a contributor as it seems to have been now, because yes, I was virtually all the way around before losing it. To further complicate things you exit that corner up a moderately steep hill, though that should help rear traction I suppose. I had been under the impression that even DOT race tyres (I assume that's a term for road legal race tyres like the power one or the pilot race, right?) were only good for a relatively small number of heat cycles, compared to road tyres, before they started to "go off" and lose their stickiness - and that was why warmers were used, so that one trackday was one heat cycle, rather than 6-8 cycles. If that's not really much of a problem though, then I'll be on the look out for some rims. Any comment re: compression damping? I'd always (maybe wrongly) expected it to be the case that the tyres would squirm around a bit when they were pushed, rather than feeling nicely planted and then really letting go quite suddenly. While I'm here and asking questions, what are your thoughts on switching to a Corsa III or similar when the rear tyre needs replacement (assuming I stick with road tyres for the time being)? I remember you mentioning that you ran a stiffer front tyre and a more pliable rear for a while, and was wondering if the more pliable pirelli might help with developing a sense of feel for what the back end is doing. FlyinDoc fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Dec 24, 2009 |
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Dec 24, 2009 01:59
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FlyinDoc posted:I hadn't considered the camber to be as much of a contributor as it seems to have been now, because yes, I was virtually all the way around before losing it. To further complicate things you exit that corner up a moderately steep hill, though that should help rear traction I suppose. Do you have any pictures of the area that you crashed? quote:I had been under the impression that even DOT race tyres (I assume that's a term for road legal race tyres like the power one or the pilot race, right?) were only good for a relatively small number of heat cycles, compared to road tyres, before they started to "go off" and lose their stickiness - and that was why warmers were used, so that one trackday was one heat cycle, rather than 6-8 cycles. Yeah, DOT Race tires are basically slicks with sipes cut in them, in most cases. The Dunlop 211GPs, Michelin Power Ones, Pirelli Diablo/Dragon Supercorsa, and there are some other options out there. Some of them (like the Power one) come in both a street and a race version, so make sure you get the race ones. Usually you'll see the DOT Race tires listed under the race listing on a company's website, as they're used in production classes where tires must be road legal. When it comes to street use, I'm running the softest race version on the front of the ZX6R right now and expect at least 3k of good street mileage out of it, probably closer to 6k. I've never really had cross compatible sizes between my race and streetbikes, but I have run DOTs on the street without any issues. Heat cycles are more of a problem with DOT tires, but honestly, at anything below an A group pace, you're not going to have any issues with pushing them hard enough to make them go off before they start to hit the wear bars. They're soft enough that at the low track pressures and on highly abrasive tracks, you'll see the wear bars before you see too many heat cycles. You'll get people swapping them every 3 trackdays, but I ran upwards of 7-10 on some tires at A group pace, without warmers, without any problems. SVs are more gentle on tires than 600s, but you still shouldn't have any problems with getting at least 5 or so trackdays out of a rear and upwards of 10 out of a front, depending on how hard you are on front tires and if your suspension setup is good and you can avoid tearing on the tires. Park the bike with as much sun on the tires as possible and you'll really help reduce the problems of heat cycles and help the tires come up to temp faster. Nature's tire warmer, it gets a lot of laughs until people put their hands on the tires and realize that I'll go out with most of the tire almost as hot as it is off the track. quote:Any comment re: compression damping? I'd always (maybe wrongly) expected it to be the case that the tyres would squirm around a bit when they were pushed, rather than feeling nicely planted and then really letting go quite suddenly. Unfortunately, it's really hard to give suspension advice. I can kind of hazard a guess here and there, but your best bet is to find a local tuner who can help you learn the ropes and sort things out for you. Suspension setup is very subjective and very, very difficult to tune well for a given rider and track. Also, don't be afraid to fiddle with it a little. Take your baseline setup and then adjust things a few clicks in either direction. If you've made it really bad, you'll notice. That sudden break is why I don't like running street tires at track pace...they'll stick but they really have a tendency to break loose suddenly, as that's part of the compromise that comes with making tires last longer. It's also about what tires fit you as a rider, I found that I got the best feedback from dunlops and pirellis, michelins have felt a bit numb to me, so it just may be that you need to switch brands and you'll find the tires that work for you. quote:While I'm here and asking questions, what are your thoughts on switching to a Corsa III or similar when the rear tyre needs replacement (assuming I stick with road tyres for the time being)? I remember you mentioning that you ran a stiffer front tyre and a more pliable rear for a while, and was wondering if the more pliable pirelli might help with developing a sense of feel for what the back end is doing. I did it by necessity, and learned some stuff, although it could have just as easily gone very poorly if I had gotten unlucky. It didn't really develop a feel for traction so much as it developed a feel for what different types of tires would be doing at a given time. It's sort of a difficult distinction to make. I could feel what the stiff front tire was giving in one form of feedback, and what the soft rear tire was giving in another form, they were both telling me what the limit would be in their own way, but it didn't help with me actually finding and exceeding that limit. If you're on the lookout for rims, then I'd just try a new brand of tires on those. The best thing I ever did for confidence on sliding the rear was when I had a torched Pirelli on the rear, and it'd slide a couple inches on the gas after every apex, very controllable, very manageable. Of course, that was after 5 days plus whatever the guy I'd bought the takeoff from had done. Honestly, I've always really liked Pirellis, they seem to just work for me and my riding style. Do you have an aftermarket rear shock on your bike? How involved was the suspension setup that you had done? What were your sag numbers and have you noticed that you're bottoming in either the front or rear? Z3n fucked around with this message at 03:26 on Dec 24, 2009 |
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Dec 24, 2009 03:12
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Zool posted:I'm off to a cold day at the track! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adNmwFfwONQ 
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Dec 24, 2009 07:50
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Spiffness posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adNmwFfwONQ WTF was that? Ice?
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Dec 24, 2009 09:10
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Z3n posted:Do you have any pictures of the area that you crashed? I can't find any ground level photos (spectating isn't allowed in that area of the track), but I have an aerial one. Entry is on the right, exit on the left. The line drawn on it was a guy on a local forum asking if that proposed line was a good one or not. The second half of that line is fairly accurate, but I start the corner much wider. If you divide the distance between the two yellow markers into 3rds, I think where I crashed was about 1/3rd from the lower marker and 2/3rds from the higher one.  My rear shock is stock unfortunately. The suspension setup was fairly basic, just spent an hour or so setting sags (I don't have the sheet handy right now to check, but I think around 30mm front and 28mm rear?), rebound damping (which apparently isn't quite adequate, but is the highest that the stock shock can be set to without turning it right to the stop), and then the guy had a guess at what my compression damping should be. Just had a check on the bike and the rear compression damping was set 1 turn from softest (with another 1.5 turns to go until hardest). I know I'm not bottoming out the front, as I spread a fine layer of polish on the fork tubes a few months ago (older GSXR right-side-up forks seem to get little rust spots quite readily), and there is still 20mm or so of unused travel where it hasn't been wiped. I'm not sure about the rear, haven't bottomed it as far as I know.
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Dec 24, 2009 09:12
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Tsaven Nava posted:WTF was that? Ice? Looks like he locked up and washed out the front under braking.
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Dec 24, 2009 10:14
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Spiffness posted:cold everything on a warm up lap. That's not entirely accurate.
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Dec 24, 2009 18:00
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Zool posted:That's not entirely accurate. Maybe "learn to brake in a straight line like the experts" would be better.
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Dec 24, 2009 18:35
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FlyinDoc posted:I can't find any ground level photos (spectating isn't allowed in that area of the track), but I have an aerial one. Entry is on the right, exit on the left. The line drawn on it was a guy on a local forum asking if that proposed line was a good one or not. The second half of that line is fairly accurate, but I start the corner much wider. Hrm, ok. Well, it's always difficult to break down exactly why you crash, but if I've given you some other factors to think about, that's good. If you've got video of the track it may help, but honestly, I think that I've said about as much as I can having never ridden the track and having never seen you ride. In the end, you were the one riding the bike and I'm just watching from the sidelines, so I can suggest things but it's up to you to figure out what's really applicable and what's just mindless blathering. quote:My rear shock is stock unfortunately. The suspension setup was fairly basic, just spent an hour or so setting sags (I don't have the sheet handy right now to check, but I think around 30mm front and 28mm rear?), rebound damping (which apparently isn't quite adequate, but is the highest that the stock shock can be set to without turning it right to the stop), and then the guy had a guess at what my compression damping should be. Just had a check on the bike and the rear compression damping was set 1 turn from softest (with another 1.5 turns to go until hardest). Ok, so if there's not enough rebound damping, then when you get on the gas or as you exit the corner, the bike's not gonna want to transfer weight backwards, because the shock is going to be trying to force itself to extend. This can be exacerbated if there's bumps in the exit of the track, it can compress a little and then extend a lot. I'm 90% sure that he set the compression that soft because you want a compliant but not mushy suspension. People have a tendency to dial in as much "stiff" as they can because they believe that stiff is better, which is not true. You can try dialing in some more to see if things feel better, it's possible that you could have been bottoming the shock through the corner and as you powered out the lack of rebound caused it to effectively try and push the rear tire out from under you. The other thing is that the 2 adjustments can be related, depending on the shock. Sometimes as you get down hard on one adjustment, you'll end up with bleed over into the other adjustment. Either way, that's all fairly moot at the moment, given that you don't have a good set of valving for your setup. I'd recommend trying to find an aftermarket shock, even before you find rims or buy tires or anything like that. It'll really transform the bike and give you a lot of real feedback at the rear tire. More than anything else, being disconnected from what your bike is doing sucks, and while you can ride around lovely suspension, IMO, it's better to have good suspension and lovely everything else, because you can use good suspension to ride intelligently around the other limits of the bike. That's not really true when you can't feel what's going on. Also note that there may be a little work in fine tuning your rear shock till it's just right. You want the front and the rear to be in sync, so if you stand your bike up and push down hard on the seat (helps to have a friend there to make sure you don't drop it), both ends should compress and rebound at roughly the same rate. That way when you hit a bump it's going to effect the bike the same at both ends, leading to that stable feeling that you want in the corners. quote:I know I'm not bottoming out the front, as I spread a fine layer of polish on the fork tubes a few months ago (older GSXR right-side-up forks seem to get little rust spots quite readily), and there is still 20mm or so of unused travel where it hasn't been wiped. I'm not sure about the rear, haven't bottomed it as far as I know. Toss a zip tie on the front and you can measure your travel like that too. Also, do you know where your forks bottom? They could be bottoming internally with only around .8 inches of travel left. I really need to do some video with suspension basics so that I can point out and say "this is what it should look like to start with, fine tune from here". Zool posted:That's not entirely accurate. Just out of curiosity, did you crash right at the start of braking? It's too hard to hear with the wind noise. Z3n fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Dec 24, 2009 |
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Dec 24, 2009 18:58
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Z3n posted:Just out of curiosity, did you crash right at the start of braking? It's too hard to hear with the wind noise. Yep, I lost it as soon as I got on the brakes. Spiffness posted:Maybe "learn to brake in a straight line like the experts" would be better. Wouldn't it suck if the Husky just fell right over onto someone's new Ducati... Zool fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Dec 24, 2009 |
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Dec 24, 2009 19:13
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Zool posted:Yep, I lost it as soon as I got on the brakes. That's the downside to long travel suspension...weight transfer takes longer. Well, actually, the weight transfer's still instant, it just takes longer for it to reflect in traction on the front and rear. Or who knows, it could have just been cold as gently caress. Or some piece of debris on the track... This is why I don't ride when it's below 50 degrees After totally yard saleing the SV at Infineon in the cold, lovely weather, it seems like I can't do anything but go painfully slow when it's cold out. I feel your pain on the random "oh gently caress there it goes!". Man, if someone accidentally scratched the new ducati then I could ride it without having to worry about hurting it.  Edit: 
Z3n fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Dec 24, 2009 |
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Dec 24, 2009 19:19
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Z3n posted:
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Dec 25, 2009 00:06
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Thanks for the input. Guess I'll be watching out for an aftermarket shock then.
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Dec 27, 2009 14:12
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FlyinDoc posted:Thanks for the input. Guess I'll be watching out for an aftermarket shock then. No problem, good luck finding a cheap one..they're out there but they can be hard to find. I'll keep my eyes open on this side of the world too, if I see anything worth jumping on.
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Dec 27, 2009 19:15
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