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 We're talking Eve Online here. For the uninitiated it's the single most expansive, complicated, brutal and rewarding game universe known to man. This is an ever changing world that is constantly evolving, revising itself and then subsequently exploding into a burning apocalyptic hellfire of nerd-rage, 'sperg and pubbie tears. Every player crammed into the one persistent server struggling to make their way, forge friendships and then betray everyone in the name of the almighty Inter-Stellar Kredit. GOONSWARM INTRODUCTION On your own you are utterly helpless, you are a victim to the whims of maniacal warlords, pawns of some Machevellian's schemes and the burning wreckage left in the wake of a goon's jihad attack- But together you are Goonswarm and a part of one of - if not the - most influential powerblocs in the game. GOONSWARM RECRUITMENT Eve Online is the haven of the UO reminiscent, the WOW burnouts, the SWG refugees. This is the final game you turn to when you demand more satisfaction and immersion from the pixels on your screen. You want something bigger, something compelling, a game where what you do actually has meaning and consequence.  EVE is an oddity in the modern day MMO market. Popular MMOs are polished, tightly controlled masterpieces of design; where the player triumphs over strong NPC bosses with the aid of their friends using specific means provided to them by the developers. Not so with EVE. This is chaos at it's most entertaining, it's most frustrating. Boasting an economy unapproachable by anything to date, a production and manufacture system that boggles the mind. Tactical space-warfare and a tumultuous strategic theater spanning over seven thousand solar systems. Whether you succeed or fail is entirely dependent on your own intelligence, perseverance and ability to adapt to this ever changing galaxy. OFFICIAL BUTTERFLY EFFECT TRAILER You start from the most humblest of beginnings, one tiny little fish in a vast ocean of thousands just like you. It's only after banding together with like minded individuals can you form a corporation and begin to exert your will upon this ocean. These corporations may eventually merge with other corporations to form alliances and allowing you and your allies to take control of these vast swathes of space. From here these alliances unify into great powerblocs. Each with players numbering into the tens of thousands, all this in order to stand off against the imperialistic threat of merciless rival blocs. This is survival of the fittest at it's best. The have-nots, the losers left squabbling in the dust for scraps. AUTO-UPDATING ALLIANCE INFLUENCE MAP This is unscripted, there is no developer's backstory for you to follow. You're the one creating this narrative of epic galactic conquest. There are no levels or character attributes that determine how well you fight, it all comes down to your own ability and understanding of yourself, your ship and your enemy. As your character matures new paths become available, will you be the generic gunship grunt? The provocateur that infiltrates enemy alliances, bringing them to their knees? Or will you be the charismatic fleet commander that leads 300 other nerds into the holocaust?  If you can imagine it then it is at your disposal. From the most basic frigates and nimble interceptors. From mass-produced cruisers to advanced electronic warfare platforms. Assault ships bristling with weaponry, covert recon ships that can report enemy positions back to the main fleet. Stealth bombers capable of annihilating entire formations before vanishing. From all manner of industrial hauler and logistical support craft to the workhorse battleships and sniper ships of which most heavy lifting is assigned to, spewing super-heated death across the 200km gulf between opposing battlefleets. FLEET WARFARE EXAMPLE 01 FLEET WARFARE EXAMPLE 02 FLEET WARFARE EXAMPLE 03 But all these are just gnats compared to the big-daddies of space, the capital classes. Carriers and super-carriers with massive compliments of fighter craft, drednoughts that take weeks to manufacture and assemble only to melt within seconds under the sustained fire of a capital fleet hot-drop operation. And of course the imposing titans that dwarf all, prominent amidst even the most massive of fleets. SHIP SIZE COMPARISON CHART New classes and variants are constantly being dreamed up and added to the game, a consequence of changing tactics and strategy. Currently the latest models of hilariously expensive strategic cruisers are finding their way into fleets. These are fully customisable cruisers with interchangeable hulls. Now not only do you have the option to decide your loadout of weaponry and support systems but even design your own unique ship. Massive starbases with fixed guns, protecting the moon mining installations, the FTL jump networks that link all your vast territories together. Deployable outposts housing the production lines, cloning medical facilities and market hubs. All the services you could possible need. These are just some of the toys you will have the chance to play with and be blown up by.  ALLIANCE PRESENTATION BY EX-CEO DARIUS JOHNSON GOONSPACE - A RETROSPECTIVE FILM  In a time remembered by few and experienced by even fewer still, from the humble beginnings of the badlands region called Syndicate this upstart group of goons sought to make their mark. Theirs is sordid tale wrought with strife, oppression and betrayal culminating in a final, glorious comeuppance of the highest degree. It was here that the foundations of the Great War was laid. Now the largest and arguably most influential alliance in the game, Goonswarm numbers in the thousands. A highly structured organisation that has brought nothing but grief to the established power base and old boys club of old, completely reshaping the face of the galaxy in the process. They now occupy the home of their mortal enemy; Band of Brothers. After disbanding their alliance, scattering their member corps to the far corners of space and stealing their very identity. Goons now find themselves at the pinnacle of their success, the only way they can go now is down.  The most vilified and reviled prior to Goonswarm's entrance. Red Alliance consist of predominantly Russian players and were an obvious and vital ally in the lead up to the Great War. Taking in the battered and displaced Goonswarm, providing refuge and the spring board into the southern conquests. These are a seemingly invincible group, tenacious and cunning. Much of where goons are today is owed to this group. However, Red Alliance has recently fallen upon hard times, finding themselves assailed by the Southern Coalition. Representing a tightly-knit conglomerate of alliances like Deathsquad and Solarwing who currently reside in the north eastern regions of space.  Affectionately referred to as the Carebear Coalition, these are a relatively peaceful and loosely bonded group of alliances. They are utterly massive in size and if their recent capital losses have anything to say, endowed with near bottomless pockets. Flanked by the Tau Ceti Federation, old friends of both the goons and Red Alliance of whom could be considered the 'good guys' of the galaxy. Those with the mettle and self-respect to stand up against Band of Brothers and their gaggle of two bit vassals. It would be foolish to disregard this massive group as an easy target as was evident in the past MAX campaign where the Band of Brothers were utterly shamed and dominated at their hands.  Magnificent bastards. These are the elite of the elite, the most skillful tacticians and players in the entire game. Winning the last two alliance tournaments they are home to the greatest PVPers around. Excelling primarily at small-scale guerrilla warfare this alliance is small, but it's this size that allows them to not be tied down and affording them a freedom not enjoyed by many. Pandemic Legion also played a vital role in the Great War. One of their members; Kugutsumen AKA Anthony Z, the hacker, has exposed numerous scandals involving developer misconduct in the past. He continues to fight for the rights of the average player by exposing the cheating, fraud and down right lies perpetuated by other alliances and the even the game developers.  This is the burning aftermath of the Great War. A collection of failed alliances and trounced power blocs. Consisting mostly of an alliance named Atlas, they are home to the latest iterations of our mortal enemies and the numerous vassal alliances deluded enough to hang around after betraying themselves in the Great War. To their side is the Russian offshoot; Against All Authorities. This powerbloc isn't one of mutual respect but one of necessity. If they weren't holding fast, united, they'd be dead already. But don't count them out of the fight yet, Atlas on their own has an impressive capital fleet that is currently ravaging Red Alliance territories almost unopposed.  On your own this is all impossible, you will fall into the cracks to be lost forever. Fortunately for you this path has been tread by a thousand goons before you and guidance, tutorials and credit is in abundance. We have in our possession an incredibly comprehensive wiki that is capable of providing you with all the information you could possibly need. We have mentors available to train you in the ways of waging inter-stellar war, from the most mundane of tasks to the more overwhelming mechanics of the game. You will never be alone in this regard as the one thing Goonswarm recognises is that it's most valuable resource is new recruits. Veterans are more than willing to bury you with credits to help you on your way, what may seem like a fortune for the new player is but pennies to already established players. Newbie training ops are commonplace, fleet classes specifically formed to tutor you and take you through step by step. From warping to tackling enemy ships, running away and staying alive to how to suicide your vessel in the most effective manner. CHAR CREATION 101 BASIC TACKLING 101 PRODUCTION 101 OVERVIEW SETUP 101 FLEET OPERATIONS 101 FLEET OPERATIONS 102  Alright, you ready for this poo poo? Just follow this link; GETTING STARTED AND JOINING THE SWARM Attention Eve Vets - Doomsdays GONE - Pos Warfare GONE- Resub Today! CCP is releasing a new expansion called dominion on December 1st that addresses a lot of reasons why you may of stopped playing such as doomsdays ruining all the fun, endless pos shooting and extremely laggy fights. Well, Lag has been fixed! Fleet battles below 500 are lag free, and it now takes around 1200 or so in system before it starts becoming unplayable. Poses are now being taken out of the equation for conquest! No more days and days of shooting poses to take over new systems! Doomsdays have been removed from the game, and transformed instead into a single shot anti-capital weapon, so no more going twenty jumps just to get doomsdayed jumping into a gate. Let me reiterate, this is no longer the lovely game you left. It is an entirely new game altogether. Dominion combined with the riches of delve means we will be able to make our space even more of a fortress utopia, and the new changes in dominion will force bloated empires to either recede or invite tons of horrible pubbies to live with them. As for action we have multiple alliances pledging to invade our space on December 1st so we will use every goon we can get! CCP'S UPCOMING FPS; DUST 514 PRESENTATION EUROGAMER DUST 514 PREVIEW ARTICLE INCARNA (WALKING IN STATIONS) TRAILER OLD AMBULATION (WALKING IN STATIONS) TEASE  Propaganda is taken very seriously by just about all organisations within Eve Online. The following are examples of the sort of the materials our artists have produced in the past.         RED SWARM FEDERATION GOONSWARM ONLINE 2008 RESPONSE TO BOB WITHDRAWL  GOONFLEET FOREIGN LEGION It's not unusual for Goonswarm to be fighting in several places at once. During the Great EVE Wars, BlackOps and SpecOps (when it was still active) were often deployed away from the bulk of the fleet, either to aid an ally of ours or to fight an enemy while the rest of the fleet was busy fighting another campaign.  GOONSWARM INTELLIGENCE AGENCY So you want to be a spy? Spies provide GIA and the directors with valuable sources of intel. One well placed spy in a director level position can wreak havoc with enemies. By working as a spy, you help to ensure that goons live and enemies die. To be a good spy requires real life skills, and is not for everybody. MITTANI EXPLAINS BOB DISBAND  JIHADSWARM It takes ages for high-sec miners to even pay for their Hulks. Allah calls upon his warriors to destroy all non-believers in a forceful thrust of suicidal surprise sex. JihadSwarm is a semi organized group of goons who get sadistic pleasure in destroying high sec miners while they are half sleeping at their desks wondering why they even play this game. SHEIKH KARTTOON'S JIHAD 9-11 MEMORIAL REENACTMENT  BLACK OPS Black Ops is a specialized team of individuals who spend their time living in enemy regions, preventing them from making money and generally harassing them in their home systems. Targets are chosen by the directorate and the squad deploys for weeks or months, disrupting ratting, mining, hauling, and all forms of economic activity in a region.  GOONWAFFE BOMBENEINSATZGRUPPE After the undeniable success of Cefte/MrVee’s experimental bomber gangs used effectively in the east to grief Atlas and AAA, we are formalizing this new strategy by creating an alliance funded and organized bomber group, to be known as Goonwaffe. The idea is that groups of 10 or more bombers can simultaneously wipe out hundreds of battleships so long as they are clumped together. Essentially, they are a doomsday replacement that can strategically be deployed and used much easier, and with far less financial risk. FOREIGN LEGION BOMBER WING MISTER VEE'S BOMBARDIER BEES  ASSORTED GOONFLEET VIDEOS: LITTLE BEES SUAS PULLS THE ADAMA MANEUVER SUAS SINGS 'I ROBBED A GOON' TYPICAL STAHL VID WITH NIN TRACK THE EPSILON CHRONICLES PT1 I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT TO SAY ABOUT THIS PUBBIE TRICKED INTO JUMPING CARRIER TO FLEET RHO UNVEILS SAM'S MOTHERSHIP; SALLY GHOST RIDE, A JOURNEY THROUGH SPACE IMAGINE: SAGA OF BOB AND GOONS VICTORY CELEBRATION 27-TITAN CONGA & DD Christian Ethic fucked around with this message at Oct 25, 2009 around 14:06 |
| # ? Oct 05, 2009 03:00 |
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| # ? Nov 22, 2009 01:40 |
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 but in all seriousness, join Us
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 03:13 |
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I don't think it can be said enough times, but the old herky jerky lag fest days are long over, and they're getting even better now. On top of that the new expansion seams to be CCP's way of appologizing to everyone all at once. If you quit a year ago or so you'd hardly even recognize the game now.
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 03:21 |
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It's a terrible game. But bitching about the game is probably 90% of the fun. Seeing as the game itself is no fun for 95% of the time. However, lag is actually pretty much gone. Which actually makes that 5% of the game really really awesome.
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 03:21 |
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No lag. No doomsdays. No BoB (we killed them).
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 03:23 |
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TLDR; PEARLS OF WISDOM FROM LATER IN THIS THREADTheMaster42 posted:A ton of people have had questions about choosing what ships to go for, so I thought I'd try for a comprehensive guide. Whimsy posted:I never played an MMORPG. Eve Online was my first one. Angela Christine posted:EVE isn't a twitch game. If you look at nearly any EVE screenshot, you'll see a list along the right hand side of the screen: that's the overview that shows you a list of certain types of objects you've chosen to show in the overview. You select an object from the list, then give the orders to lock on to it and shoot it (or heal it, mine it, salvage it, or whatever, depending on circumstances). You don't have to do it that way, you can click directly on objects in space, but the list is faster and easier. You can set up your overview so that the list also shows you how far away all those objects are, how fast they are moving, and other useful stuff. OneEightHundred posted:Right now Amarr is generally agreed to be the best race to train for virtually everything. They get a good battlecruiser, one of the best HACs, the best battleship (which has a variant that newbies can fly), one of the best ratting ships, and most importantly, they get all of this by training one weapon system. Anonymous Zebra posted:One thing I also want to point out to the newbees is that stats have ZERO effect on your actual performance in the game. Stats only affect the speed at which you learn skills, but only your actual skill levels affect the hard math the game uses to determine your actually ability to shoot people/rocks/rats. This is basically the opposite of how most MMO's work, so its a good thing to point out. euphronius posted:I* blew up my first enemy tonight!! It was epic. I felt like Han Solo and Cpt. Picard mixed together while wearing Adama's uniform. The Third Man posted:Transversal isn't too hard to understand, you don't really need to worry about the math. All you need to know is that you should move towards your target fast, and at an angle. He has big guns that don't track your frigate well. Imaging a big slow cannon trying shoot a fast moving boat or something. If the boat is moving straight at the cannon, he can line up a shot easily. If it's at an angle, the gunner has to move his big rear end cannon into line with the moving boat, which is much more difficult. Think about how easy it is to shoot someone running at you as opposed to at an angle(transversally!). GarethOmni posted:I've tried to quit Eve but it's like crack. Mach420 posted:Make money by salvaging, ratting scamming pubbies, mining, being a empire runner for people who need to buy things, etc. Of those, salvaging and looting wrecks is probably the easiest to get into. Read the salvaging goonwiki article. Mining is an option too, but that is the most boring thing you can possibly do. Salvaging at a high level is much easier for a newbie than ratting. You'll make more isk per hour when you start out salvaging vs killing rats. Gropiemon posted:Just to let some of the newer players know that I got down to Delve and started ratting in my Ishkur. In about an hour and fifteen minutes I made about 12mil. Of course this will go higher once I get a Myrmidon shipped down but I can already see that making money will be no problem. Christian Ethic fucked around with this message at Oct 25, 2009 around 14:02 |
| # ? Oct 05, 2009 03:25 |
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Christian Ethic posted:I agree completely with this sentiment. I'm finding myself going through my bitter-vet second wind. Last week i was raging in a DBRB op about how poo poo he is so much that i didn't pay attention, got too far ahead of everyone else and ran straight into the enemy fleet and was blown up. Yeah I had quit because of lag and other poo poo for about a year and a half and just came back in late May. It's been a lot of fun. Also, reposting from the old thread: shortspecialbus posted:
I'm only *slightly* exaggerating with the fleet numbers there.
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 03:27 |
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Flying tacklers is still the most fun I've had in fleet fights.
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 03:27 |
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I dunno, I'm actually a fan of putting stupid poo poo like double sensor boosters on my zealot or sniper with scan res scripts and instapopping everything before anyone else in the entire fleet can even lock them. I get off on griefing our own fleet by denying them killmails.
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 03:31 |
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I get off on Dbrb's leg
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 03:32 |
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I only played eve for a bit and hopped around squads. I chose to join right in the middle of hell purging systems and bubble camps. Which in someways was a bad thing in that there really wasn't a chance to look after newbies like me. but I learned how to tackle and stumbled my way to whatever station it was that we had to bubble camp and I sat there for hours on end not knowing what the hell was going on just waiting to tackle some faggot who said goons couldn't be in space. I consider myself a reasonably responsible adult but I was there until 3 and 4 am on work nights being a hateful little bastard and it was a blast. If I wasn't busy playing other things right now I would probably join back up and really learn how to play. Ignore the "excel with graphics" naysayers the fun of this game is being apart of something infinitely larger than yourself. I had a too much fun doing literally nothing but trolling a chatroom and occasionally tackling someones ship full of years worth of work so that someone could destroy it.
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 03:34 |
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There's also lots of good roleplaying opportunities. You can be Osama tracking down untanked miners shouting Arabic obscenities into local. We're more accepting these days.
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 03:37 |
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Christian Ethic posted:GOONSPACE - A RETROSPECTIVE FILM Sally 
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 03:45 |
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I joined the game after four years of holding out because it seemed like a stupid libertarian wankfest that required Excel to make money and where a PvP action was 90% boredom and 10% mindlessly clicking buttons. That's exactly what it is, but for some reason, it's also fun. Also, you can grief people as much as every other MMO put together and we're just the right guild for it!
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 03:51 |
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Twigand Berries posted:I get off on Dbrb's leg Literally.
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 03:52 |
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In other news it looks like Daric's hopes of joining goonfleet have been dashed, It'll take some serious 11th hour campaigning to turn this around for himself.Oran Sound posted:
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 03:52 |
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Christian Ethic posted:I dunno, I'm actually a fan of putting stupid poo poo like double sensor boosters on my zealot or sniper with scan res scripts and instapopping everything before anyone else in the entire fleet can even lock them. I prefer a sensor booster/signal amp II fitting myself, you get two more targets and can fit a large shield extender. The Zealot is among the most fun ships to fly in fleets.
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 04:03 |
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Christian Ethic posted:In other news it looks like Daric's hopes of joining goonfleet have been dashed, It'll take some serious 11th hour campaigning to turn this around for himself. those stats are loaded; put the poll in GBS and he'll totally make it.
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 04:05 |
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Adar posted:I joined the game after four years of holding out because it seemed like a stupid libertarian wankfest that required Excel to make money and where a PvP action was 90% boredom and 10% mindlessly clicking buttons.
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 04:10 |
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man, every time i turn the corner there's awesomebee in some new propaganda. keep smiling you little bastard.
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 04:14 |
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While currently on a hiatus myself (burn-out and broke as hell) I spent about 2 years in goonswarm, not a vet by any means, but it's cool. Try Eve out, Fly tacklers and die, yell at DBRB and listen to him sperg out about how to rat and poo poo. Also, newbies, learn to lead fleets, post a newbee thread in the war room and tell people not to bring what they can't lose and go roaming into AAA space or PL (on again off again ally) space. Coming in December there's going to be a hell of a lot of action and I may have to shovel some walks to re-sub for the month.
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 04:16 |
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Also, newbies, when you get accepted into GoonFleet, drop what you are doing in Empire and kill yourself. Go to a station with medical facilities, change your clone location to NOL Ishukone Factory, leave station in your pod and self destruct. After that, bitch at people for free frigates. Lose those frigates. Ask for more. This is the best thing you can do.
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 04:20 |
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Northern Coalition REPRESENT! We saw a few of you folks out in the lag fest that was Omam today, it was awesome.
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 04:22 |
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I thought Stahl had quit making videos.... (or maybe when I left.) For all the gamma squad folks, how you guys doing? Are we still 
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 04:58 |
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Hey guys I just signed up for an eve account can I join Goonswarm? I'll bring my Hulk to delve!
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 05:23 |
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They even added a skill queue so you just have to log in every 24h or so! Seriously though, the new changes will hopefully make this game fun again and maybe we'll get guys to shoot - if you join now, you'll learn the game enough to be ready.
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 05:41 |
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Senor P. posted:For all the gamma squad folks, how you guys doing? Are we still None of them play Eve anymore so yes I suppose
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 05:50 |
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1) Are Stealth Bombers useful yet? 2) Do Amarr still get hosed all the time? 3) Is there any way to check out my character with no account? A WoW Armory sort of system? I left the game two years ago but set a long-rear end skill to train back then and during a free weekend last year.
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 05:58 |
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Stealth bombers are great, Amarr are probably the best race right now, and no.
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 06:01 |
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evilweasel
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CmdrSmirnoff posted:1) Are Stealth Bombers useful yet? Yes, check out the foreign legion video links in the OP http://killboard.goonfleet.com/battles/1498 http://killboard.goonfleet.com/battles/1499 No, Amarr own everything. Christian Ethic fucked around with this message at Oct 05, 2009 around 06:20 |
| # ? Oct 05, 2009 06:03 |
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It's been a while since I've played EVE. The new content almost brought me back; this next expansion looks even more fun. I think I'll join up again. I seem to recall having a bunch of Spec Op crap trained up.
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 06:05 |
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I was too slow.CmdrSmirnoff posted:1) Are Stealth Bombers useful yet? Yes. They can warp cloaked now, and we've been using them in groups with hilarious results. CmdrSmirnoff posted:2) Do Amarr still get hosed all the time? No. Definitely not. I edited out my answer to the third question on the suspicion that it was factually incorrect.
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 06:06 |
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Christian Ethic posted:Yes, If you can remember your password check the eve-o website. A subbed account is only required to log into the actual game. Where the hell is it on the site? I logged in fine to Account Services. (Guy above you said "no" too.) edit: n/m Moving on - I might give this a try again. I miss the game, and I should be a few skills away from Cap Ships (and probably ready for Black Ops ships right now).
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 06:07 |
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CmdrSmirnoff posted:Where the hell is it on the site? I logged in fine to Account Services. If you're still looking; http://www.eveonline.com/character/skilltree.asp
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 06:11 |
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Christian Ethic posted:If you're still looking; http://www.eveonline.com/character/skilltree.asp Thanks, but it doesn't let me enter, and EVEMon refuses to update my characters too.
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 06:15 |
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CmdrSmirnoff posted:Thanks, but it doesn't let me enter, and EVEMon refuses to update my characters too. Oh poo poo, my bad then.
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 06:18 |
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Christian Ethic posted:If you're still looking; http://www.eveonline.com/character/skilltree.asp You can't check any character information on the site unless you are subscribed. You can only adjust account settings and subscription details.
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 06:25 |
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One major difference is that in wow if you tried to kill a level 80 guy with ten level 1 characters the level 80 guy would probably wipe you out with one spell. In eve if you catch a battleship by himself with a group of frigates flown by level 1 characters, the battleship is going to die. You CAN and DO make a difference in fights from day one, as even the newest player can hold down enemy ships for the rest of us to kill. You are making a difference and helping out our alliance on day one.
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 06:26 |
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Is there a public primer on the 10 hour hero? I'd like to grief some highsec pubbies every now and then, but don't have the inclination to play the game or pay for it. So, if I can get away with it in trial accounts, that would be excellent.
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 06:29 |
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Exitlights posted:Is there a public primer on the 10 hour hero? I'd like to grief some highsec pubbies every now and then, but don't have the inclination to play the game or pay for it. So, if I can get away with it in trial accounts, that would be excellent. one of the plans was posted in the old thread, so you could probably dig it up there.
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| # ? Oct 05, 2009 06:43 |
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