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The MUMPSorceress
Jan 6, 2012


^SHTPSTS

Gary’s Answer

EmmyOk posted:

She really wasn't.

"good character" and "interesting person" are not necessarily the same thing. She fulfills her role perfectly. The whole point is that there's nothing particularly special about her. She could be any girl. The town, the people, they could have done the same to anyone. The whole story is heavily intertwined with allegory of the abuse and trauma a girl is put through just by trying to be what everyone wants, and what happens to her when they try to take more than she can give. There's a reason victims of sexual abuse, for example, have frequently cited the movie as being extremely cathartic. It expresses their experience in a way more deep than can be put into words.

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Baloogan
Dec 5, 2004
Fun Shoe
Like anything Lynch you can wave your hands, say 'allegory and symbolism' over and over and it's fine. IMO it works.

The MUMPSorceress
Jan 6, 2012


^SHTPSTS

Gary’s Answer

Baloogan posted:

Like anything Lynch you can wave your hands, say 'allegory and symbolism' over and over and it's fine. IMO it works.

While I agree, I think the symbolism in Twin Peaks/FWWM is way more concrete and connected to the central idea than a lot of Lynch's other work. More so in FWWM than in the show, but it's still strong in the show. While there's certainly a lot of seemingly disconnected plot threads that dangle about as part of the show's overt parody of soap operas, the theme of people projecting their own wants and desires onto Laura throughout the show is quite strong. This culminates in Maddie showing up and people struggling not to treat her just like Laura. Her very plainness and uninterestingness is what draws the town (and BOB) to turn her into an icon for their wishes. This becomes very explicit when we finally meet Laura in FWWM and there's really nothing special about her. Anything interesting she does is basically a desperate reaction to how everyone else is treating her.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!

Fun Shoe
I found Laura to be an incredibly compelling character in FWWM. Its tough to watch her interact with all the various people in her life as they all either fail to identify how serious her situation is, or purposely turn a blind eye because they don't want to deal with it. She tries to express herself but what's happening to her is so insane that she can't really do it properly, and towards the end she makes an almost conscious decision to give up, which is emotionally devastating to see. I thought Lee did really well with all of the heavy stuff she had to work with, her intensity is what carries the film.

Monagle
May 7, 2007
Wonka Wash spelled backwards.

Basebf555 posted:

I found Laura to be an incredibly compelling character in FWWM. Its tough to watch her interact with all the various people in her life as they all either fail to identify how serious her situation is, or purposely turn a blind eye because they don't want to deal with it. She tries to express herself but what's happening to her is so insane that she can't really do it properly, and towards the end she makes an almost conscious decision to give up, which is emotionally devastating to see. I thought Lee did really well with all of the heavy stuff she had to work with, her intensity is what carries the film.

Yeah, I've always seen it as the film shows the real Laura. I've hear people say all the time that laura was better before you get to know her and the more you find out the less interesting she is. But I disagree. She never was the person that is portrayed in the beginning of the show, and this isn't a case of watering down her character. She was a normal girl being abused and the fact that she didn't match up to "the legend" just shows that nobody really knew her, and how alone she really was.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!

Fun Shoe

Monagle posted:

She never was the person that is portrayed in the beginning of the show, and this isn't a case of watering down her character. She was a normal girl being abused and the fact that she didn't match up to "the legend" just shows that nobody really knew her, and how alone she really was.

That's definitely a major point of the first season, as its gradually revealed that Laura had all these connections to people in Twin Peaks, and they were all artificial at best and outright destructive in some cases. Like four different guys thought they had some sort of true love thing going on with Laura, and yet we see in FWWM that she really didn't feel that way about any of them.

You could look at her situation as a metaphor for the Lodges, that she is "between two worlds". She tries to maintain her homecoming queen image but its impossible because of the traumatic experiences she's had/having. The illicit world of One Eyes Jack's values her, but only because she trades on that girl next door image, which she knows is all bullshit. She doesn't really have a true self anymore, to maintain her sanity while in both worlds she does a ton of cocaine and probably other drugs too. This is what Laura seems to be describing in FWWM when she talks about falling "faster and faster" through space, and then "bursting into fire". The farther she gets away from any true sense of self, the more impossible is must feel to ever get back there, and so she gives up.

bobkatt013
Oct 8, 2006

You’re telling me Peter Parker is ...... Spider-man!?

Basebf555 posted:

The farther she gets away from any true sense of self, the more impossible is must feel to ever get back there, and so she gives up.

I do not know if that's the case. It seemed that she had a choice of giving up to BOB who would take over her. Instead she chose to keep what "true self" she still had, and while she died she did it as Laura.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!

Fun Shoe

bobkatt013 posted:

I do not know if that's the case. It seemed that she had a choice of giving up to BOB who would take over her. Instead she chose to keep what "true self" she still had, and while she died she did it as Laura.

True, what I meant by "give up" is that she gave in to the idea that she would have to die to escape Bob. The only way to be herself again was to die, she no longer believed it was possible in life.

Mouse Dresser
Sep 4, 2002

This isn't Middle Earth, Quentin. There aren't enough noble quests to go around.

Baloogan posted:

Like anything Lynch you can wave your hands, say 'allegory and symbolism' over and over and it's fine. IMO it works.

Just re-watched "Mulholland Dr" and I can confirm that this works.

Also what the gently caress was up with "Mullholland Dr?"

As I understand it, the second half of the film is what "really" happened and the first was all a flash-before-the-eyes bit before Diane/Betty died.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!

Fun Shoe

Mouse Dresser posted:

Also what the gently caress was up with "Mullholland Dr?"

As I understand it, the second half of the film is what "really" happened and the first was all a flash-before-the-eyes bit before Diane/Betty died.

I think that's the standard interpretation, although we don't know exactly what the first half really is, your explanation is maybe a little too specific.

Lord Krangdar
Oct 24, 2007

These are the secrets of death we teach.

Mouse Dresser posted:

Just re-watched "Mulholland Dr" and I can confirm that this works.

Also what the gently caress was up with "Mullholland Dr?"

As I understand it, the second half of the film is what "really" happened and the first was all a flash-before-the-eyes bit before Diane/Betty died.


That's the basic idea, yeah. Except I wouldn't say either is supposed to be what really happened, rather they're both showing us complimentary sides of Diane's interior/subjective experiences. The first part is Diane's fantasies of how she thought Hollywood would be, mixed with her slowly unravelling denial of what was about to happen to Camilla because of her actions (note how in the fantasy the attempted hit on Camilla actually brings them closer together). The second part shows how she now interprets her actual time in Hollywood and her actual relationship with Camilla, but its still distorted by subjectivity. For example, Camilla's exaggeratedly cruel mannerisms and general behavior to her spurned lover; that shows us how Diane now thinks of her now that they're exes, not how she actual would act.

regulargonzalez
Aug 18, 2006
UNGH LET ME LICK THOSE BOOTS DADDY HULU ;-* ;-* ;-* YES YES GIVE ME ALL THE CORPORATE CUMMIES :shepspends: :shepspends: :shepspends: ADBLOCK USERS DESERVE THE DEATH PENALTY, DON'T THEY DADDY?
WHEN THE RICH GET RICHER I GET HORNIER :a2m::a2m::a2m::a2m:

Lord Krangdar posted:


That's the basic idea, yeah. Except I wouldn't say either is supposed to be what really happened, rather they're both showing us complimentary sides of Diane's interior/subjective experiences. The first part is Diane's fantasies of how she thought Hollywood would be, mixed with her slowly unravelling denial of what was about to happen to Camilla because of her actions (note how in the fantasy the attempted hit on Camilla actually brings them closer together). The second part shows how she now interprets her actual time in Hollywood and her actual relationship with Camilla, but its still distorted by subjectivity. For example, Camilla's exaggeratedly cruel mannerisms and general behavior to her spurned lover; that shows us how Diane now thinks of her now that they're exes, not how she actual would act.


Exactly. Subjectivity of experience is a recurring theme for Lynch, most clearly stated by Bill Pullman in Lost Highway. The police officer is surprised he doesn't own a camera and asks why, Pullman's character says that he likes to remember things in his own way, not necessarily how they actually happened.

juniperjones
Apr 27, 2012

EmmyOk posted:

She really wasn't.

Yes she was.

EmmyOk
Aug 11, 2013

juniperjones posted:

Yes she was.

If you like boring uninteresting people then sure. Like people have said the interesting stuff is everyone else's perception of her but anything just focussed on her was James-esque in interest level.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

How Doers get more done
Fun Shoe

EmmyOk posted:

If you like boring uninteresting people then sure. Like people have said the interesting stuff is everyone else's perception of her but anything just focussed on her was James-esque in interest level.

The prequel is still a good film though even though Laura isn't especially interesting

The MUMPSorceress
Jan 6, 2012


^SHTPSTS

Gary’s Answer

EmmyOk posted:

If you like boring uninteresting people then sure. Like people have said the interesting stuff is everyone else's perception of her but anything just focussed on her was James-esque in interest level.

I think you're conflating "uninteresting person" with "bad character". She's a good character because she's an uninteresting person. That's the whole point of the show. If she wasn't a boring, average, troubled teen, none of the show's metaphor would carry any weight.

EmmyOk
Aug 11, 2013

LeftistMuslimObama posted:

I think you're conflating "uninteresting person" with "bad character". She's a good character because she's an uninteresting person. That's the whole point of the show. If she wasn't a boring, average, troubled teen, none of the show's metaphor would carry any weight.

I would totally agree except for the boring part, she didn't have to be so boring for the concept to work. Ordinary and boring aren't the same thing. I can accept she served her purpose well and made sense in the narrative but that doesn't mean it's enjoyable or interesting to watch itself. I think FWWM could have shown Laura to be a normal teen under pressure and also not have had her being as dull as dishwater. Donna is an ostensibly normal teen and both of her incarnations were much more interesting to watch.

e: Your posts did make me view her role differently and much more favourably though

EmmyOk fucked around with this message at 10:13 on Nov 2, 2015

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!

Fun Shoe
I don't agree that Laura is boring or uninteresting at all, and for me FWWM is almost completely carried by Lee's performance.

juniperjones
Apr 27, 2012

EmmyOk posted:

If you like boring uninteresting people then sure. Like people have said the interesting stuff is everyone else's perception of her but anything just focussed on her was James-esque in interest level.

She wasn't boring or uninteresting. I'm really not sure how you could think that, viewing the series and seeing all of the different facets of her personality and life.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!

Fun Shoe
There are several characters that I find much more interesting in FWWM, and its largely because they're actually interacting with Laura instead of just talking about her and remembering her. Lee's performance was the most important factor in making those scenes work. Mainly I'm thinking of Donna, James, and Bobby, who in my opinion all have much more intense and compelling roles than they did in the series.

Look at Bobby, specifically the scene where he kills the drug runner. The way Bobby reacts in that scene can't be separated from Lee's performance, which I just can't imagine anyone describing as "uninteresting". Same with Donna, most of her best scenes in FWWM are with Laura, with Lee's performance driving the scene for the most part.

EmmyOk
Aug 11, 2013

Maybe Josie is worse but it is a tough call. I can find her uninteresting because there are very few characters I'd rather spend time watching than her. Those scenes with Bobby and Donna are good yes but far from either of their best scenes so it's not like they required Lee to elevate them.

Raxivace
Sep 9, 2014

I say with little doubt that Sheryl Lee in FWWM might be the best performance by an actress in a film of the early 90's.

That movie has weaknesses, but Lee's Laura isn't one of them.

Teek
Aug 7, 2006

I can't wait to entertain you.

Surlaw posted:

Where are all the Albert lovers?

http://deadline.com/2015/11/twin-peaks-series-miguel-ferrer-cast-albert-rosenfeld-1201606876/

egon_beeblebrox
Mar 1, 2008

WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.




My wife, who dislikes Twin Peaks, is pumped about this. Ferrer as Albert is one of the few things she likes in the show.

Albert owns.

Deakul
Apr 2, 2012

PAM PA RAM

PAM PAM PARAAAAM!

http://www.comingsoon.net/movies/news/629039-new-twin-peaks-delayed-until-2017


drat it. :negative:

EmmyOk
Aug 11, 2013

Albert rules, I liked when he was mean to Harry.

Scandalous Wench
Aug 9, 2010

by Lowtax

Nooooooooooo! :(

A True Jar Jar Fan
Nov 3, 2003

Primadonna


Thanks, super glad to hear this!

SaviourX
Sep 30, 2003

The only true Catwoman is Julie Newmar, Lee Meriwether, or Eartha Kitt.

WHATS THAT COOP

Scandalous Wench
Aug 9, 2010

by Lowtax
ALL VERY HUSH-HUSH

Mouse Dresser
Sep 4, 2002

This isn't Middle Earth, Quentin. There aren't enough noble quests to go around.
So during Twin Peaks' tenure on the air, David Lynch directed a series of commercials for a Japanese coffee company that re-tell, albeit briefly, the story of the show.

http://io9.com/david-lynch-directed-a-mini-twin-peaks-series-through-a-1744044882

Link has all of the videos on youtube.

crowoutofcontext
Nov 12, 2006

cool poo poo:



The book that covers the 25 odd years between S2 and S3.

A bit excited and will definitely check out. Have mixed feelings though, part of my excitement about S3 involves having the fates of the original cast slowly revealed during S3, or even left purposely vague which is fitting for the TP universe. I think a lot of media with supernatural overtones gets ruined once an external logic and explanation becomes part of the story-line. I do think the book is a good idea to tie certain story-lines up so S3 can be a relatively stand-alone narrative.



:coffee::dance:

Lord Krangdar
Oct 24, 2007

These are the secrets of death we teach.

crowoutofcontext posted:

I think a lot of media with supernatural overtones gets ruined once an external logic and explanation becomes part of the story-line. I do think the book is a good idea to tie certain story-lines up so S3 can be a relatively stand-alone narrative.

I agree with you, but on the other hand Lynch always intended the original show to go on indefinitely like a regular soap opera so its kinda fitting to have the story continue as if it was still on all this time. Too bad its only Frost who wrote it, though.

bobkatt013
Oct 8, 2006

You’re telling me Peter Parker is ...... Spider-man!?

Lord Krangdar posted:

I agree with you, but on the other hand Lynch always intended the original show to go on indefinitely like a regular soap opera so its kinda fitting to have the story continue as if it was still on all this time. Too bad its only Frost who wrote it, though.

It also can get out of the way of dead characters or ones that are not returning. They do not have to give a ton of info drops. It also is a way of dealing with some of the cliff hangers like the bombing and poo poo. That way they do not have to waste airtime with remember when ......

The Vosgian Beast
Aug 13, 2011

Business is slow

Lord Krangdar posted:

I agree with you, but on the other hand Lynch always intended the original show to go on indefinitely like a regular soap opera so its kinda fitting to have the story continue as if it was still on all this time. Too bad its only Frost who wrote it, though.

He was always the dude who was good at the mechanics of storytelling and juggling different plotlines that you needed to support the weirder high concept stuff so he'll do fine, I think.

Why cookie Rocket
Dec 2, 2003

Lemme tell ya 'bout your blood bamboo kid.
It ain't Coca-Cola, it's rice.
The other three TP books are pretty good so I think this'll be good too.

Vogler
Feb 6, 2009
I just finished a re-watch. The most annoying character in Twin Peaks is in fact Audrey Horne's fling, John Justice Wheeler. He was supposed to be this perfect stud. I just wanted to punch him right in his deformed, faux-handsome face.

Solice Kirsk
Jun 1, 2004

.

Vogler posted:

I just finished a re-watch. The most annoying character in Twin Peaks is in fact Audrey Horne's fling, John Justice Wheeler. He was supposed to be this perfect stud. I just wanted to punch him right in his deformed, faux-handsome face.

I will not hear this tripe being spit about Billy Zane!!!!! The man played The Phantom for goodness sake! And he's from Chicago, making him one level cooler than he normally would be.

SaviourX
Sep 30, 2003

The only true Catwoman is Julie Newmar, Lee Meriwether, or Eartha Kitt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnZEdjxwCew

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Vogler
Feb 6, 2009
Oh yeah he played the obnoxious rich human being in Titanic. He was better suited for that.

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