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Insane Totoro
Dec 5, 2005

Take cover!!!
That Totoro has an AR-15!


Bitch Hat posted:

Price of ammo is a big thing too because once I'm not a gun noob my mother wants me to teach her how to shoot and I plan to take friends and so on. I expect to put a good amount of ammo through this thing. Eventually I also hope my wife will cave and want to shoot also.

Edit:I was thinking of getting a Beretta Neos U22 since it seems really cheap and takes cheap ammo, but I'd never be able to conceal that, it wouldn't do a great job at protection, and it looks kinda silly anyway.

Buy a Neos just for fun and training. Trust me on this one. Also it looks like a phaser pistol. Also it can be had for around $225 new if you want something other than a used Ruger .22 pistol. Furthermore, women love the Neos. I think the grip is just right for their smaller hands.

Then go to a rental range and try out all the major fullsize handguns if you want a real self defense gun. From personal experience I would say that 9mm is just right for a newbie (as I was myself).

This should include all the major "famous maker" guns.

Glock 17s from places like Summitgunbroker (heck they are so popular they're sold out again):
http://www.summitgunbroker.com/Glock_17__369.html

M&P9s can be found for sub $500:
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...oducts_id/37124

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NitroSpazzz
Dec 8, 2006

You don't need strength when you've got style!

IuniusBrutus posted:

A good choice might be a used Glock 19, and than invest $200 in a .22 conversion slide. You don't want a .22 for carry, not at all.
The only 22LR conversion I've found for the G19 is the advantage arms kit which is out of stock everywhere and so far impossible to find. Is there another kit that I am not seeing? I plan on picking up a 19 this week and would much rather have a 22 conversion kit than picking up a separate gun.

Looch
Nov 6, 2007
My name says it all.

I did some looking up on the Glock 19 and now I am considering that one instead. I don't think I had realized just how small the Bersa thunder was and while I am only going off pictures I'm not sure if it will fit my hand very well or be fun to learn to shoot with.

However am I right in reading that the glock has no safety? I did see that you can modify it with a safety that wouldn't void the warranty, if I do go with a glock 19 and wanted that how much could I expect that to run me? I couldn't find prices about it anywhere. Obviously the best safety is just to keep your finger off the trigger until you are firing, but as I am still learning I'm just a little uneasy about that.

Airbone Operation
Dec 22, 2007
Tosser

The glock is perfectly okay without having a manual safety. It will not fire unless you pull the trigger. There shouldn't be much more to anything than that. If you cannot trust yourself to keep your finger off the trigger, maybe you should reconsider owning firearms.

CAT ON THE COUCH!!
Mar 30, 2009

Hark!! Yonder goon hast defamed a lady!! Fear not, CoTC to the rescue!!

lol ponytar


If you're really concerned you could just not keep it cocked, too. Put the mag in, don't rack the slide. But yeah, it's really not hard to not pull the trigger.

Kommienzuspadt
Apr 28, 2004

ASK ME ABOUT BLOWING 10MM GLOCKS


Bitch Hat posted:

I did some looking up on the Glock 19 and now I am considering that one instead. I don't think I had realized just how small the Bersa thunder was and while I am only going off pictures I'm not sure if it will fit my hand very well or be fun to learn to shoot with.

However am I right in reading that the glock has no safety? I did see that you can modify it with a safety that wouldn't void the warranty, if I do go with a glock 19 and wanted that how much could I expect that to run me? I couldn't find prices about it anywhere. Obviously the best safety is just to keep your finger off the trigger until you are firing, but as I am still learning I'm just a little uneasy about that.

It is perfectly safe and if anything should reinforce in your head that YOUR FINGER DOES NOT GO INTO THE TRIGGER GUARD UNTIL YOU ARE READY TO FIRE.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

In short, as the owner/operator of both a dick and a set of (admittedly male) nipples I'm not entirely sure that Suetonius is writing about impossibilities here.

The glock 19 is a great gun, but if you're serious about buying one you need to at least get into a gunshop and see how you like how it feels in your hand. Ideally go rent one.

THey're great pistols, but some people find that the grip angle really disagrees with them, or there's something else about the ergonomics that bug them. The ergonomics of a pistol are really a huge issue, and it is very much a personal fit. IF it's not comfortable to you you're not going to practice with it, and you don't practice you won't get any good with it.

Kommienzuspadt
Apr 28, 2004

ASK ME ABOUT BLOWING 10MM GLOCKS


Cyrano4747 posted:

The glock 19 is a great gun, but if you're serious about buying one you need to at least get into a gunshop and see how you like how it feels in your hand. Ideally go rent one.

THey're great pistols, but some people find that the grip angle really disagrees with them, or there's something else about the ergonomics that bug them. The ergonomics of a pistol are really a huge issue, and it is very much a personal fit. IF it's not comfortable to you you're not going to practice with it, and you don't practice you won't get any good with it.

This is true but it is worth noting that the glock grip angle isnt designed to be "comfortable" in the same sense that a 1911 or a CZ is comfortable. the angle is designed to twist your wrist a little bit to encourage a good support hand grip that will result in proper isometic tension.

I am also fairly well convinced that if you gave me any handgun and enough ammunition to practice with it I would be able to become as proficient with it as any other gun out there. Glocks didn't "feel" right to me either the first few times I shot them but I kept hitting poo poo with them so I figured something about them must be good.

Ignoarints
Nov 26, 2010


Oh I didn't know you didn't feel up a Bersa at the gun shop. Yeah they're tiny as hell. Seriously you should really go back and start feeling stuff. I know exactly what boat your in, it sounds like the same as it was for me a long time ago. In fact, in order to avoid gun shops and the unappealing clerks I ordered something online and had it transferred to an FFL. Of course, it was smaller than I thought, and I got rid of it at a loss.

Just looking at a gun before hand makes a huge difference. Don't worry about the safety, and they are slowly going out of style. Unless you habitually squeeze the trigger on your gun a safety doesn't do any good. It doesn't protect you from anything except pulling the trigger which never happens unless you are going to shoot. If it does happen in any other scenario, probably shouldn't have guns. It's not as bad as it sounds, it was a little counter intuitive for me too. And if you need a gun to prevent your dying you don't want a safety on it in general.

Sometimes kids in the house comes up, but any kid can figure out a safety.

ShaiHulud
Dec 31, 2007


CAT ON THE COUCH!! posted:

If you're really concerned you could just not keep it cocked, too. Put the mag in, don't rack the slide.

This is terrible advice for someone who may be carrying. Refrain from giving terrible advice please. Israeli carry is almost as terrible as actual Israelis.

Insane Totoro
Dec 5, 2005

Take cover!!!
That Totoro has an AR-15!


CAT ON THE COUCH!! posted:

If you're really concerned you could just not keep it cocked, too. Put the mag in, don't rack the slide. But yeah, it's really not hard to not pull the trigger.

Don't do this.

But I didn't carry condition one at first either, just to ease my mind that I had a gun concealed. You'll realize pretty fast that essentially if you can't reach the trigger through a good holster, it'll never go off. My carry gun doesn't even have a safety.

Cyrano4747 posted:

The glock 19 is a great gun, but if you're serious about buying one you need to at least get into a gunshop and see how you like how it feels in your hand. Ideally go rent one.

THey're great pistols, but some people find that the grip angle really disagrees with them, or there's something else about the ergonomics that bug them. The ergonomics of a pistol are really a huge issue, and it is very much a personal fit. IF it's not comfortable to you you're not going to practice with it, and you don't practice you won't get any good with it.

Pretty much. I shot a Glock 19 at a rental range and it was uncomfortable. Ended up with the M&P9 after that for that sole reason.

A lot of people swear by Springfield XDs for their ergonomics. I think they're crazy. But to each their own.

CAT ON THE COUCH!!
Mar 30, 2009

Hark!! Yonder goon hast defamed a lady!! Fear not, CoTC to the rescue!!

lol ponytar


ShaiHulud posted:

This is terrible advice for someone who may be carrying. Refrain from giving terrible advice please. Israeli carry is almost as terrible as actual Israelis.

I wasn't really giving advice as much as stating it's a Thing That Is Possible. Why is it a bad idea, though?

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

In short, as the owner/operator of both a dick and a set of (admittedly male) nipples I'm not entirely sure that Suetonius is writing about impossibilities here.

CAT ON THE COUCH!! posted:

I wasn't really giving advice as much as stating it's a Thing That Is Possible. Why is it a bad idea, though?

Actual, real-deal self defense situations usually escalate very quickly. WHy is this? Because if it was a slowly developing threat you could just GTFO and avoid having to draw in the first place. If it actually comes to pulling a trigger seconds count.

Having to rack your slide not only takes a lot longer than just drawing and firing, but it also involves using both your hands which, depending on the situation, you might not have available. If your left hand is busy trying to keep some guy who just decided you needed stabbing at arms distance already having one in your chamber is a big advantage.

It's basically inferior on every level and doesn't really add anything significant to the safety of the firearm as long as it's a modern design.

Insane Totoro
Dec 5, 2005

Take cover!!!
That Totoro has an AR-15!


Also people screw up racking the slide under pressure.

Some people screw up racking the slide because they do it too leisurely at the range.

It's too easy to screw up if you're under any amount of pressure.

ShaiHulud
Dec 31, 2007


In the off chance you're not trolling you are:
Keeping a loaded magazine inserted with no round in the chamber defeats the purpose of keeping a carry weapon ready to draw and fire quickly, deprives the carrier of an additional round of ammunition, and requires the use of two hands to make the weapon useful.

Carrying an empty handgun with a loaded magazine in a back pocket is also A Thing That Is Possible, but it's also pretty retarded.

CAT ON THE COUCH!!
Mar 30, 2009

Hark!! Yonder goon hast defamed a lady!! Fear not, CoTC to the rescue!!

lol ponytar


ShaiHulud posted:

In the off chance you're not trolling you are:
Keeping a loaded magazine inserted with no round in the chamber defeats the purpose of keeping a carry weapon ready to draw and fire quickly, deprives the carrier of an additional round of ammunition, and requires the use of two hands to make the weapon useful.

Carrying an empty handgun with a loaded magazine in a back pocket is also A Thing That Is Possible, but it's also pretty retarded.

I wasn't really trolling, but it's clearly a bad idea. I thought maybe there was some reason other than the obvious (you have to rack it). I mentioned it only because he was concerned with the lack of a safety

DELETED
Nov 14, 2004
Disgruntled

If the Glock safety thing bothers you that much, carry the gun empty but cocked for a while. Go mow the lawn, work on the deck, practice drawing and holstering, lounge around and watch TV. Then at the end of the day, check to see if the gun is still cocked. I was concerned with this myself, until I tried it and realized that unless you put something directly on the trigger safety and apply deliberate pressure, the gun won't fire. You can even change parts out (quite cheaply) for a heavier trigger pull if you want a little more insurance.

Craptacular
Jul 11, 2004



Glocks have safeties, just not external manually activated safeties.

Also, advocating a heavier trigger to make a gun more safe is retarded. Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot and it won't matter what the trigger weight is.

Looch
Nov 6, 2007
My name says it all.

Its not that I was worried about me pulling the trigger on accident, but more about bumping into something at a weird angle or it getting caught on the holster or something unexpected like that.

The Dregs
Dec 29, 2005

Nothin' but lint.

I don't understand. I'm really new myself and since I am mostly into guns for range toys that I like the looks of, I haven't had much interest in Glocks.

But you guys are saying that a Glock won't fire unless you pull the trigger, and that is how a Glock safety works? I thought safeties were designed to keep guns from going off if the trigger accidentally got pulled.

Insane Totoro
Dec 5, 2005

Take cover!!!
That Totoro has an AR-15!


Put gun in holster first. Then put holster on belt. Go about your business.

Get home. Remove holster. Then remove gun from holster if need be.


The Dregs posted:

I don't understand. I'm really new myself and since I am mostly into guns for range toys that I like the looks of, I haven't had much interest in Glocks.

But you guys are saying that a Glock won't fire unless you pull the trigger, and that is how a Glock safety works? I thought safeties were designed to keep guns from going off if the trigger accidentally got pulled.

Safeties can fail. It's not something I would bet my life on. By following basic rules of firearm safety, you will prevent injury to yourself and others even if the safety fails or other accidents happen.

Craptacular
Jul 11, 2004



Bitch Hat posted:

Its not that I was worried about me pulling the trigger on accident, but more about bumping into something at a weird angle or it getting caught on the holster or something unexpected like that.

1) What exactly is going to get caught in the trigger? If you're carrying it around the house and you want to leave it on a table or a shelf or something, leave the gun in the holster. The holster will prevent anything from entering the trigger guard, which leads to:

2) Don't buy lovely holsters that don't prevent the trigger from being pulled when the gun is in the holster.

darnzen
Jun 25, 2005

I crap dark matter.
EDIT: ^^^^^ you guys were much quicker with all good advice

Bitch Hat posted:

I did some looking up on the Glock 19 and now I am considering that one instead. I don't think I had realized just how small the Bersa thunder was and while I am only going off pictures I'm not sure if it will fit my hand very well or be fun to learn to shoot with.

However am I right in reading that the glock has no safety? I did see that you can modify it with a safety that wouldn't void the warranty, if I do go with a glock 19 and wanted that how much could I expect that to run me? I couldn't find prices about it anywhere. Obviously the best safety is just to keep your finger off the trigger until you are firing, but as I am still learning I'm just a little uneasy about that.

Historically "safeties" have been designed in to prevent 'accidental' discharge from dropping, bumping, or other "non-pulling the trigger discharges." Like old revolvers only had two options, hammer / firing pin resting on a primer, or keeping a chamber empty. I think people quickly figured out the latter was the way to go. Then some guns added half-cocking and safety slots on the cylinder and such so you could keep your whole cylinder loaded. Sometime early on was the 'half-cock' but I think that was more a hold over from flint-lock days as I don't think anyone recommends carrying anything 'half-cocked'. (Technically I think the glock is normally half-cocked though it's debatable)

Another early design was the derringer, which didn't have a trigger guard. Probably a good idea to put some kind of safety on that since you're supposed to keep in in your pocket.

Same with semi-autos, with the hammer back and things ready to fire, there's a lot of potential energy stored up and the sear is a pretty small bit of metal keeping that thing from going off. Hence the need of a safety.

Once someone came up with the firing pin safety and transfer bar, I think double action revolvers and pistols were basically safe and won't go off unless you want them to.

Then lawyers got involved and stupid things started showing up, grip safeties, magazine safeties, etc. The word "safety" started giving people the impression that more "safeties" meant "safer" guns.

If you're worried about it being "safe" get a holster and don't take the gun out of it unless you are shooting it or cleaning it. If it's a glock, you probably don't ever need to take it out unless you're shooting it.

As far as israeli carry, there have been many times at the range I loaded and racked and got a 'click' instead of a bang because the magazine wasn't seated properly. Now I always chamber a round and press check before holstering.

tl/dr: Lot's of supposition and opinions of questionable value

darnzen fucked around with this message at Feb 7, 2011 around 21:33

Insane Totoro
Dec 5, 2005

Take cover!!!
That Totoro has an AR-15!


Craptacular posted:

1) What exactly is going to get caught in the trigger? If you're carrying it around the house and you want to leave it on a table or a shelf or something, leave the gun in the holster. The holster will prevent anything from entering the trigger guard, which leads to:

2) Don't buy lovely holsters that don't prevent the trigger from being pulled when the gun is in the holster.

Which TFR poster made the quotable quote "No finger, no bang!" about modern semiauto pistols?

Roundboy
Oct 21, 2008


I was a bit paranoid carrying a g19 for the first time. it was my first gun, and first time carrying.

I put an unloaded, but cocked, g19 in the comp-tac holster, and did and just wore the gun all day around the house. i did everything i normally did, and even exaggerated movements. At no point did the gun ever 'click'

Now a year later, i realize i do all kinds of things with it on my hip, and it gets squeezed pretty good. For a glock, you must explicitly pull the safety and trigger straight back for it to go off, and as long as you get a quality holster that covers the trigger, you are golden. Skip the soft neoprene crap for a glock.

People that shoot themselves with a glock are 100% at fault. No matter how much they argue about 'how stupid it is that glock requires x' etc.. 100% their fault.

The Dregs
Dec 29, 2005

Nothin' but lint.

Is there anything wrong with buying one of those 99 dollar Mosins I see at the gunshow? I mean, I have never owned a rifle or anything and I can't tell which are likely to blow up in my face or not. But they are so cheap and cool and I just want one damnit.

LimburgLimbo
Feb 10, 2008

One day I will be happy
every day


The Dregs posted:

Is there anything wrong with buying one of those 99 dollar Mosins I see at the gunshow? I mean, I have never owned a rifle or anything and I can't tell which are likely to blow up in my face or not. But they are so cheap and cool and I just want one damnit.

Nope a Mosin isn't likely to blow up in your face. They're just cheap because they made a ton of them and now they're being dumped into the US. Probably three out of four people who post here have a Mosin of some description.

Senor Science
Aug 21, 2004

MI DIOS!!! ESTA CIENCIA ES DIABOLICO!!!


You can never go wrong with a Mosin for a newbie gun; I should know.

On my Mosin, it appears there is some Cyrillic burnt into the indentation on the stock.

The letters are СД (Or A)Ф (I think). Am I right in thinking this spells out to "Inspected" in Russian?

Ignoarints
Nov 26, 2010


Is the tumbling bullet thing bullshit? I always hear it, I always see some reference here that's its stupid. Can someone explain to me why its dumb?

I was reminded by this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...DoQwIAaXg#t=298

Even though the bullet was somehow already tumbling. Also this teaches me how I never, ever want to be shot by a hollowpoint.

I like turtles
Aug 6, 2009

"Wouldn't want to see an angry turtle with a gun, would ya? "

Well...


Ignoarints posted:

Is the tumbling bullet thing bullshit? I always hear it, I always see some reference here that's its stupid. Can someone explain to me why its dumb?

I was reminded by this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...DoQwIAaXg#t=298

Even though the bullet was somehow already tumbling. Also this teaches me how I never, ever want to be shot by a hollowpoint.

What do you mean? A bullet may tumble if it is improperly stabilized, or after it hits a target. It's terrible for accuracy if it tumbles before it hits the target, and is the sign of a gun not working right.

walrusman
Aug 4, 2006



What turtles said. Some 5.56 projectiles (I believe M855, but I could be wrong) are designed to tumble and fragment from the rear to improve their wounding characteristics, since the Geneva Convention haha Hague Accords won't let militaries use hollow point projectiles. It's kind of a letter-but-not-the-spirit workaround, but I believe it works decently.

thermobollocks
Jul 5, 2009

GET A DILLON

Ignoarints posted:

Is the tumbling bullet thing bullshit? I always hear it, I always see some reference here that's its stupid. Can someone explain to me why its dumb?

I was reminded by this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...DoQwIAaXg#t=298

Even though the bullet was somehow already tumbling. Also this teaches me how I never, ever want to be shot by a hollowpoint.

The aforementioned replies involving what the bullet does when it hits something soft and squishy are accurate. To add, another thing you're likely to hear all the time is something like:
GOHT DANG M16 IS INACCURATE BECAUSE THE BULLET TUMBLES OUT OF THE BARREL

This is hilariously false. By design, bullets spin as they leave the barrel, and they fly pretty damned straight. If the bullet does start to tumble, indicated by slot-like holes on the paper rather than circles (keyholing), this is a symptom of a few things:
1. Your barrel has no rifling left. You own either a shotgun or some milsurp someone never cleaned.
2. The twist rate (for example, 1 twist in 9 inches) of your rifling is too slow to stabilize the bullet weight you have chosen. You may encounter this trying to shoot with a .22 conversion kit on a .223 AR barrel at medium-long distances, or trying to use heavy match ammo in a barrel that isn't designed for it.
3. Your bullet has traveled farther than its effective range, and drag is starting to do bad things. I don't remember when, exactly, this starts to happen, but it doesn't occur to me, even with .22LR, at any range I have available (200 meters).

Edit: It's unclear to me whether you were talking about keyholing, yaw in wound tracks, or some vague notion of tumbling either way, but I thought I'd add this anyway.

Ignoarints
Nov 26, 2010


thermobollocks posted:

The aforementioned replies involving what the bullet does when it hits something soft and squishy are accurate. To add, another thing you're likely to hear all the time is something like:
GOHT DANG M16 IS INACCURATE BECAUSE THE BULLET TUMBLES OUT OF THE BARREL

This is hilariously false. By design, bullets spin as they leave the barrel, and they fly pretty damned straight. If the bullet does start to tumble, indicated by slot-like holes on the paper rather than circles (keyholing), this is a symptom of a few things:
1. Your barrel has no rifling left. You own either a shotgun or some milsurp someone never cleaned.
2. The twist rate (for example, 1 twist in 9 inches) of your rifling is too slow to stabilize the bullet weight you have chosen. You may encounter this trying to shoot with a .22 conversion kit on a .223 AR barrel at medium-long distances, or trying to use heavy match ammo in a barrel that isn't designed for it.
3. Your bullet has traveled farther than its effective range, and drag is starting to do bad things. I don't remember when, exactly, this starts to happen, but it doesn't occur to me, even with .22LR, at any range I have available (200 meters).

Edit: It's unclear to me whether you were talking about keyholing, yaw in wound tracks, or some vague notion of tumbling either way, but I thought I'd add this anyway.

Woops, I meant tumbling inside a person. My dad fired some lovely m16's he said in the 70's in the army and they keyholed or never hit the target. He said they all had the problem and he took off the hand guards and the barrels were bent. He showed the armorer who apparently didn't care one bit. I believe him on that

thermobollocks
Jul 5, 2009

GET A DILLON

Ignoarints posted:

Woops, I meant tumbling inside a person. My dad fired some lovely m16's he said in the 70's in the army and they keyholed or never hit the target. He said they all had the problem and he took off the hand guards and the barrels were bent. He showed the armorer who apparently didn't care one bit. I believe him on that

I wonder if you can adjust the sights to compensate for that.

DkHelmet
Jul 10, 2001

I pity the foal...


Senor Science posted:

On my Mosin, it appears there is some Cyrillic burnt into the indentation on the stock.

The letters are СД (Or A)Ф (I think). Am I right in thinking this spells out to "Inspected" in Russian?

Usually these are stock fitter's or inspection marks. I can't find any reference in my big ol' book o' Mosin for anything matching that aside from some Dragoon stocks getting a 'CCCP' etched in the stock, although it could be sorta conceivable there's a 'РСФСР' there if it was between 1918 and 1922. If it's in a small circle those are definitely inspector and fitter marks.

Grab some pics of the etching and the receiver marks and I can get a better handle.

Black Stormy
Apr 1, 2003



LimburgLimbo posted:

Nope a Mosin isn't likely to blow up in your face. They're just cheap because they made a ton of them and now they're being dumped into the US. Probably three out of four people who post here have a Mosin of some description.

Don't just buy it and shoot it immediately though. If the bore is caked in cosmo, it MIGHT blow up in your face. You will need to clean it pretty thoroughly.

Ignoarints
Nov 26, 2010


thermobollocks posted:

I wonder if you can adjust the sights to compensate for that.

By his account probably need to be a hoop a foot wide in diameter. I wasn't clear that this only happened once, with m16a1s they were issued that day for some training or another.

The Dregs
Dec 29, 2005

Nothin' but lint.

Black Stormy posted:

Don't just buy it and shoot it immediately though. If the bore is caked in cosmo, it MIGHT blow up in your face. You will need to clean it pretty thoroughly.

I thought cleaning it up and at least making it look nice, if not new, would be the fun part.

DkHelmet
Jul 10, 2001

I pity the foal...


The Dregs posted:

I thought cleaning it up and at least making it look nice, if not new, would be the fun part.

This is the only reason why I collect milsurp.

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I like turtles
Aug 6, 2009

"Wouldn't want to see an angry turtle with a gun, would ya? "

Well...


The Dregs posted:

I thought cleaning it up and at least making it look nice, if not new, would be the fun part.

Also it may be "just" a Mosin, but please ask around before doing anything more than disassembling the thing and getting gunk off.

A lot of milsurp gets a substantial portion of its value from being in original condition, with the original finish, etc. Again, probably not a near future issue with a Mosin, but in 50 years, who knows? That said, if you're aware of all of this and decide to "improve" it, there's no one stopping you! It's just a shame to see nice pieces get messed up without any consideration for its history.

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