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Mindset Lab: 3 Course After Action Review Some time ago I became aware of a new training opportunity in the Indianapolis area. Shay VanVlyman, former president and instructor at Tactical Response, had started doing training classes locally under the moniker Mindset Lab. He is teaching force on force and low-light techniques, for the most part. So far he has no live-fire classes on his roster. So far I have taken 3 classes with him: Flashlight Combatives, Intro to Force on Force, and Dynamic Force on Force Scenarios. For a little background, I took a weekend class at Front Sight back in 2006 with a good number of TFR regulars. It was a great time and taught me basic marksmanship. It is square range training and very little is applicable to defending your life. The only thing I REALLY took away from the class is marksmanship skills. Don't get me wrong, these are very important. However, in the scheme of things, shooting well is only a small piece of the self-defense puzzle. They teach a couple things I have serious issues with, but we won't get into that here. In spring of 2007, I took a 2 day MP5 Operator's Course. The class was taught by Tom Dresner, former director of HK's now defunct training division. HK was on the cutting edge of training back in the day, and the training division taught and perfected many of the modern submachine gun and tactical rifle techniques that are still in use today. Tom now does private classes for groups of students around the nation. We were taught the proper use of stances, movement, trigger control on an automatic weapon, weapon transitions, and many other things. If you ever have the opportunity to take the class, I'd highly recommend it. Tom can normally provide loaner guns, so do not let the lack of a capable SMG stop you. Onto the meat of this post: Course 1: Flashlight Combatives  I didn't really know what to expect when I signed up for the course. This was the first time I had worked with this particular instructor. I knew going into it there would be no shooting, and very little gun work. We started out with a meet and greet and a comprehensive safety briefing. We had a long lecture on defensive mindset. We spoke at great length about Jeff Cooper's philosophies regarding defensive mindset and his infamous 'color codes' among other things. We then talked about the use of the high intensity flashlight as a defensive tool and potential deterrent. One of the best things about the flashlight is that it will not necessarily escalate the force continuum like a knife or gun will. Most people see flashlights, especially hand held lights, as a benign object. Pulling a flashlight and shining it in someone's face will not bite you in the rear end in court. The police will not respond with guns drawn to a man with a flashlight call. We then started working on light technique. We went through a few holds and Shay explained why he advocated the 'neck hold.'  This hold keeps the flashlight in retention and provides light at a decent angle relative to your eyes. It connects the light to your head, in that when you turn your head to look somewhere, the light will follow. It also pre-loads a strike, allowing you to come out or down with the light as needed. Your hands are up in the hold to aid in hand-to-hand defense. Your other hand is also free for knife, gun, or unarmed combative use. We started working on strikes shortly after. We practiced strikes with hands, basic kicks, a clinch position, and some other techniques. I won't go into this too much, as not to take anything away from the class. All attacks were solid, quick, and simple. Soon we were talking about low light target identification and search techniques including sweeping the light in quick on/off beams instead of holding it on like a beacon. We went over movement while searching as well. Next, we had a lecture and discussion on types of high intensity lights, and the benefits and drawbacks. We went over a wide variety of models from Surefire, Pelican, and other brands. Finally, we went over light use with a weapon. We discussed different ways to utilize handheld lights with both pistols and long arms.  Overall, I found the class very interesting. It gave me some things to think about in regards to options for self defense. There are many places where you cannot carry a gun or knife, but you can tote a flashlight. A light is a very unassuming tool that can be used to great effect on an adversary. Flashlight training isn’t sexy like live-fire training is. You’re not learning high speed low drag stuff. What you are learning is how to take care of yourself in the real world. Course 2: Intro to Force on Force  This was the first force on force class I had taken. It was truly an eye opening experience. The meat of the class is lecture. After introducing ourselves, we went into a safety briefing. We then went into a long lecture about defensive mindset. We then broke for lunch. After lunch, we started in on basic gun handling. We learned Shay’s preferred draw stroke. Step one: Pull cover garment and grip the pistol in a fighting grip. Your non-dominant hand should be placed against your sternum or above and held there. Step two: Draw pistol straight out of the holster, and bring it up to armpit height, canting elbow and pointing the muzzle of the gun at about 45 degrees:  The reason your muzzle is pointed down is to facilitate movement of your non-dominant hand. With the muzzle in this position, you’ll be shooting into the attacker’s abdomen or lower. This allows your non-dominant hand to work high on the attacker, holding him, defending yourself, striking, etc. Step three: Bring the hands together at your chest completing your two handed grip. Gun should be pointing at your target.  Step four: Bring the arms to full extension and acquire a sight picture.   I found this drawstroke very efficient and adaptable. It works for varying levels of distance to your adversary. If he’s up in your face, position 2 is great. You can work with your non-dominant hand up high, the gun is held in pretty decent retention, and your rounds are headed toward the ground. This last part is useful in that when fighting that closely, you won’t be picking up a sight picture. Therefore, any innocents in the background of the fight are in less danger of taking a round. As distance is gained to the attacker, you can move to position 3 and 4. As distance is closed, you can move backward through the steps. We then discussed something I didn’t expect to in a firearms training class: 911 calls. Most people have never practiced and went over something as simple as a 911 call. However, after any defensive shooting, you will likely be calling in emergency service. Next, we traded in our blue guns for Glock 19s modified for UTM use.  We did some basic work with these such as drawing from concealment on a live attacker and firing. I won’t get into much detail, as I don’t want to spoil the class for anyone interested in taking it. One thing I would like to mention is the absolute insistence on safety in the class. When we begin to work with blue or UTM guns, we disarm ourselves of any and all live weapons including guns and knives. We place the weapons in a locked room that only Shay has the key to. Before entering the training area, we are required to be frisked and searched twice by two different people. A safe environment is a must for this type of training. I felt Shay did what he could to ensure this. All of this leads up to the end of the day, where we underwent a single scenario to test our training. I will not be discussing the scenario; however, I can say it was an eye opening experience. I experienced everything I’ve been told I would in a gun fight, including tunnel vision and time distortion. I made some pretty major errors I regret, but training is the place to make your mistakes so that you can learn from them. Course 3: Dynamic Force on Force Scenarios  Unfortunately, I can’t talk much about this course. After an introduction period and safety briefing, we immediately started in on the scenarios. We did a total of 5 that day including both shooting and non-shooting. There were a few that you would never expect, at least I wouldn’t have. Truly an eye opening experience and one that makes me want to further my training.  All in all, I think Shay runs a truly top notch training company. I learned much about myself, as well as new techniques, in all of his classes. Not only did I learn new things, I also learned what old things I need to work on to improve myself. I realize this sounds cliché, but I feel as if I have grown as a person. I feel that I am better able to take care of myself after these classes. Please check out Mindset Lab. I sincerely believe you will not regret taking a class with them. I’d like to thank Shay for running a top notch school, Joe for lighting me up on many occasions as well as opening my eyes, and Andy for doing the same as well as lending his warehouse to us for the 3 days.
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| # ? Nov 03, 2009 16:53 |
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| # ? Nov 21, 2009 23:21 |
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I took "The Fight; Force on Force Scenarios" from Tactical Response when Shay was teaching there, and it was a top notch class. Force on Force is a big eye opener for a lot of people, if you carry a gun for self defense you need Force on Force training.
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| # ? Nov 03, 2009 17:06 |
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SinistralRifleman posted:I took "The Fight; Force on Force Scenarios" from Tactical Response when Shay was teaching there, and it was a top notch class. Force on Force is a big eye opener for a lot of people, if you carry a gun for self defense you need Force on Force training. That class is on my short list of courses to take. I try to explain to people that if you carry a gun, you NEED to train, but unfortunately, it normally falls on deaf ears. They believe standing in place, taking a minute to make sure their stance and sight picture is perfect, and firing at a piece of paper is enough to prepare them.
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| # ? Nov 03, 2009 17:10 |
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The Automator posted:Course 1: Flashlight Combatives Flashlight Combat: THE REAL WORLD BITCHES ps. please tell me how much you spent on this.
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| # ? Nov 03, 2009 17:10 |
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norbrektt posted:Flashlight Combat: THE REAL WORLD BITCHES Hate to break it to you, but bad things happen in places you can't carry guns and knives, too. I was wondering how long it would take until the training haters started showing up.
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| # ? Nov 03, 2009 17:11 |
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The Automator posted:Hate to break it to you, but bad things happen in places you can't carry guns and knives, too. Seriously. The other day at work, John from accounts didn't refill the coffee pot -- EVEN THOUGH HE HAD THE LAST CUP AND IS WELL AWARE OF THE POLICY. I was going to drop him all operator-style, but then I remembered that company policy forbids weapons. poo poo, if I had taken this course for $150, and then brought my $200 weaponized flashlight to work...
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| # ? Nov 03, 2009 17:16 |
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norbrektt posted:Seriously. The other day at work, John from accounts didn't refill the coffee pot -- EVEN THOUGH HE HAD THE LAST CUP AND IS WELL AWARE OF THE POLICY. I was going to drop him all operator-style, but then I remembered that company policy forbids weapons. You can still carry surefire lights into areas with real security, and you don't need one with a bunch of meat tenderizer poo poo on it to put the hurt on someone.
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| # ? Nov 03, 2009 17:21 |
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Last I checked you can still carry your hands and feet most places, though.
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| # ? Nov 03, 2009 17:31 |
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norbrektt posted:Seriously. The other day at work, John from accounts didn't refill the coffee pot -- EVEN THOUGH HE HAD THE LAST CUP AND IS WELL AWARE OF THE POLICY. I was going to drop him all operator-style, but then I remembered that company policy forbids weapons. You are an idiot. If you want to be poorly prepared that is your own decision that will potentially weed you out of the gene pool anyways. Don't jump on other people for wanting the know how to defend themselves in a variety of situations using what is at hand.
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| # ? Nov 03, 2009 17:36 |
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Nice writeup, the flashlight stuff is interesting.
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| # ? Nov 03, 2009 17:37 |
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norbrektt posted:Seriously. The other day at work, John from accounts didn't refill the coffee pot -- EVEN THOUGH HE HAD THE LAST CUP AND IS WELL AWARE OF THE POLICY. I was going to drop him all operator-style, but then I remembered that company policy forbids weapons. Dude, your poo poo is really tired by now. It's almost like I've heard you say this a dozen loving times before. You don't contribute anything to these threads, not even constructive criticism. You just poo poo on threads. And you're useless. I haven't seen you offer an alternative, better training or a reason why people shouldn't train. You're just an unfunny troll who ruins an otherwise useful and informative thread.
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| # ? Nov 03, 2009 17:37 |
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There seems to be a dichotomy of posters here 1) People who know what they are talking about, or at least want to learn or 2) People who have gone "Full-Retard"
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| # ? Nov 03, 2009 17:41 |
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ArcMage posted:Last I checked you can still carry your hands and feet most places, though. Sure you can, but why not supplement them with a hard metal cylinder to blind or hit someone with? SinistralRifleman posted:There seems to be a dichotomy of posters here Welcome to TFR!
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| # ? Nov 03, 2009 17:45 |
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What was the concensus of short strobes vs. sweeping when searching an area with a light? Was there any mention of the "FBI Technique" where the light is held away from the body? How much movement was involved during the practice? How much movement was involved during the scenarios? What were some of the common mistakes made by students during the scenarios?
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| # ? Nov 03, 2009 17:58 |
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Scarecrow411 posted:What was the concensus of short strobes vs. sweeping when searching an area with a light? We did short strobes and sweeps. Short strobes are more effective when you know where your threat is. We did sweeps when searching. We would activate the light, sweep from our feet out to directly in front of you, turn off light. Take a few more steps, repeat. We did this while always moving. One of the reasons we did sweeps is that it gives you a longer time to let your eyes focus and search. We swept from the ground up in case there was an object or something directly in front of your feet. We discussed it. The one merit it has is getting the light away from your core. This will hopefully direct bullets toward the light. However, it makes you larger when moving and it's pretty difficult to move through a door or other tight spaces with the light held outward. It's also very fatiguing on the arm, whereas the 'neck hold' we practiced was not. When doing force on force, we moved constantly. Part of the drawstroke was moving off the line of attack. I forgot to mention that. One thing we discussed a lot was the cost of actions. Movement is one that is normally free. There's usually no good reason to not try to improve your position. All scenarios were up to you. You were explained what you were doing, ie going to an ATM and withdrawing money or paying a gas station attendant. After that, you were on your own. It was up to you how much you moved, when you drew, whether or not you fired and how many times, etc. There was quite a bit of freezing in place after a shooting and not improving position. There was also the common mistake of not topping off your gun after shooting. One thing that a lot of students did was wanting to keep eyes on the guy they just shot. They liked to pop out of cover and look at the dude. Instead of staying behind cover and peeking, they wanted to bring their whole body out and check. This frequently lead to them getting shot by a target they had thought they neutralized. Thankfully I didn't do that. When I got behind a solid piece of cover, I tended to stay put and defend my position.
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| # ? Nov 03, 2009 18:13 |
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That course looks awesome. You should see our low-light curriculum. It's kind of sad. Also, UTMs were designed by something that hates humans. And I hate them right back.
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| # ? Nov 03, 2009 23:01 |
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infrared35 posted:That course looks awesome. You should see our low-light curriculum. It's kind of sad. Come down and take a class sometime. They're pretty inexpensive.
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| # ? Nov 03, 2009 23:55 |
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I would take something like this .. but can you explain the light holding technique while using an ar-15 with rail mounted light ? is that just what he had available or were both used ?
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| # ? Nov 04, 2009 00:02 |
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Roundboy posted:I would take something like this .. but can you explain the light holding technique while using an ar-15 with rail mounted light ? It was his personal AR, so it's just what he had available. He advocated weapon mounted lights on long guns. He was just showing us a technique if you didn't have a weapon mounted light available. Both were not used at the same time.
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| # ? Nov 04, 2009 00:28 |
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If you take self defense very seriously then train some MMA. Knowing how to do everything from grappling to Mauy Thai kick boxing all at the same time is very valuable as a self defense mechanism. I hate to say it but the dude holding that pad in your pictures would be apt to break his fingers if someone hitting it missed a little.
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| # ? Nov 04, 2009 00:59 |
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Captain Log posted:If you take self defense very seriously then train some MMA. Knowing how to do everything from grappling to Mauy Thai kick boxing all at the same time is very valuable as a self defense mechanism. I hate to say it but the dude holding that pad in your pictures would be apt to break his fingers if someone hitting it missed a little. I've been trying to find a good BJJ gym around here for a while. There's not much in the way of affordable MMA training in Indy. We weren't going full speed on the pads.
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| # ? Nov 04, 2009 01:15 |
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The Automator posted:I've been trying to find a good BJJ gym around here for a while. There's not much in the way of affordable MMA training in Indy. Understanding distance to and from an opponent is vital. Just remember that BJJ is incredible but it doesn't teach you the striking half which is a lot likelier in a self defense situation. Just try to find a newbie MMA class and take a few months. It will put you lightyears ahead of the big fucks at bars. I've seen skinny fencers absolutely whomp people in fights before and it's just because they know how to get in and out of "the pocket." Personally I carry a gun with this mindset - I can talk, run, fight, or heaven forbid - shoot. I typically pocket carry and if someone really wants me dead they can make it happen. I'm not going to stress out about getting outshot. If I have a chance to train up on it I would but I wouldn't spend big cash on it. Basically my pistol is like the 1d4 dagger a bard carries. It's there if I need it but I'm not loving Rambo. 
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| # ? Nov 04, 2009 01:26 |
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Captain Log posted:Understanding distance to and from an opponent is vital. Just remember that BJJ is incredible but it doesn't teach you the striking half which is a lot likelier in a self defense situation. Just try to find a newbie MMA class and take a few months. It will put you lightyears ahead of the big fucks at bars. I've seen skinny fencers absolutely whomp people in fights before and it's just because they know how to get in and out of "the pocket." It's on the list of things to do as soon as I can. I've been searching for a better job. With a better job comes more training. No matter what, if someone just straight up wants to kill you, it's bad news for you. Even if you manage to get your gun drawn and fire, you're still likely in bad shape if the guy has a true 'gently caress you' mindset. The pistol is a hairy thing because it escalates a fight like nothing else can. It's in a bad way because if you need a pistol, you likely REALLY loving need a pistol. If you do not need a pistol and you draw, you're not only going to escalate the level of force considerably, but you could also land yourself in legal trouble. Guns also tend to make innocents pretty loving nervous, and it's pretty easy for a guy on the phone with the cops already to say, 'THERE'S A GUY HERE WITH A GUN.' Suddenly, you're the bad guy.
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| # ? Nov 04, 2009 01:39 |
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The Automator posted:It's on the list of things to do as soon as I can. I've been searching for a better job. With a better job comes more training. Here is what I think. What is more likely? Getting in an unarmed physical altercation or Getting in a loving gunfight Train accordingIy. I don't know what your gun stash contains but I think you could maybe lose one that would pay for a good half year or more of a gym membership. Also, being physically confident in yourself is worth countless house of training with a gun. Carrying yourself with the relaxed air of confidence that comes when one isn't easily physically intimidated does wonders. I just think many people without confidence in how they stack up against their fellow man virtually scream, "I look like a scared victim! Bully me!"
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| # ? Nov 04, 2009 01:53 |
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infrared35 posted:That course looks awesome. You should see our low-light curriculum. It's kind of sad. Ours wasn't that much better if it makes you feel any better. In fact, out of the academy our night quals, while they are helpful, are pretty weak.
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| # ? Nov 04, 2009 01:59 |
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Captain Log posted:Here is what I think. What is more likely? Oh, I agree 100%. I actually only have 3 guns at the moment: HK USP .45 Tactical, Remington 870 Wingmaster, and a WASR-10. As I said, good hand to hand training is very high on my to do list.
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| # ? Nov 04, 2009 02:02 |
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Homie S posted:Ours wasn't that much better if it makes you feel any better. In fact, out of the academy our night quals, while they are helpful, are pretty weak. We didn't even do any flashlight work at the academy; it wasn't until I went to FI school that I got sanctioned flashlight training. And of course they'll only give me enough time for one low light qual each year. 
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| # ? Nov 04, 2009 02:50 |
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infrared35 posted:We didn't even do any flashlight work at the academy; it wasn't until I went to FI school that I got sanctioned flashlight training. And of course they'll only give me enough time for one low light qual each year.  I will admit though getting a weaponlight was tempting but after our FI bringing them out to the qual for us to play with, I've found the exact problem with being wrong handed. I don't like the surefire switch and the TLR1 switch makes me ewe my sight picture all funky. *le sigh* Why aren't you on IRC more
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| # ? Nov 04, 2009 21:22 |
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I've had the opportunity to do a lot of simunitions scenario training and I can attest to it being the most fun, rewarding and eye opening training for me ever. The part about people relaxing too soon and leaving cover to check a hit and getting shot is a good example of the dumb things people do without training. If you ever have an opportunity to do a scenario where you are in a group of untrained people in condition white who are getting jumped by a shooter prepare to see some hilarious stuff when people loose their minds. On a side note I like BJJ for the fitness aspect a lot on top of the skills. when I did it a few years ago we had a few MMA cross trainers that came to our classes. They trained without a gi and it seemed like a smart idea for real world type stuff. Not to totally thread jack but what about Krav Maga? any thoughts? there area few places that are a little far but I'll go if it's worth it.
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| # ? Nov 04, 2009 22:04 |
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Killgasm posted:I've had the opportunity to do a lot of simunitions scenario training and I can attest to it being the most fun, rewarding and eye opening training for me ever. In one scenario we were jumped by a shooter who basically just ran by and popped off a few rounds, hitting us. The reactions were priceless. One guy basically curled into a standing fetal position and hung out like that for about 10 seconds. I acquired 'jazz hands.' My hands flew up and waved a little before my brain kicked in and I drew and acquired cover. One guy completely froze up and just looked around before drawing his gun and ducking down in place. This was basically an exercise in what you do after you've been shot. Almost active shooter-ish, in that you're taken by a surprise by an attacker who is only interested in killing you. The instructor followed us and had a helmet cam, so we could see exactly how we reacted to everything. I've used this phrase a million times already, but it truly was eye opening. By far the most valuable training I've taken. If anyone's near Indianapolis, I HIGHLY recommend taking a class from Mindset Lab. Tuition is very affordable, and ammo is only $25 for the intro class and $50 for the scenarios class.
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| # ? Nov 04, 2009 23:23 |
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Killgasm posted:Not to totally thread jack but what about Krav Maga? any thoughts? there area few places that are a little far but I'll go if it's worth it. TFR is all about Krav Maga. The Automator posted:In one scenario we were jumped by a shooter who basically just ran by and popped off a few rounds, hitting us. The reactions were priceless... I acquired 'jazz hands.' I can't stop laughing. How much time was spent debriefing after each scenario? What were some of the common questions and answers?
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| # ? Nov 04, 2009 23:33 |
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Scarecrow411 posted:TFR is all about Krav Maga. We had a short debriefing as soon as the scenario was completed. The instructor asked us to describe what happened during the scenario, then asked us why we did what we did. After everyone ran through the scenario, we watched the helmet cam videos and reviewed them. It was very enlightening to see what yourself and the other students did in 3rd person. The instructor offered advice, but didn't really say what you did was right or wrong. We spent probably 15 minutes reviewing video and discussing it after each scenario. As they set up each scenario, we students also discussed what happened and had further access to the video to review. I'm not even kidding about the jazz hands. My hands went straight up, palms out, and shook in front of my face. The instructor enjoyed referring to me as 'Sparkle Motion' the rest of the day.
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| # ? Nov 04, 2009 23:40 |
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Homie S posted:Why aren't you on IRC more Nobody's on IRC when I go there.  Or, if there are people, it's two or three folks talking about videogames. I go to bed early these days. Maybe that's part of the problem. I'm never up late with the cool kids.
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| # ? Nov 05, 2009 00:50 |
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The Automator posted:I'm not even kidding about the jazz hands. My hands went straight up, palms out, and shook in front of my face. The instructor enjoyed referring to me as 'Sparkle Motion' the rest of the day. This is the funniest thing I have read in a long time. I probably would have done the same thing.
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| # ? Nov 05, 2009 13:37 |
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Black Stormy posted:This is the funniest thing I have read in a long time. I probably would have done the same thing. People like to think they'll immediately sweep their cover garment, draw, drop into a perfect stance, and pop two shots center mass. Hate to break it to you, but I bet you won't, even in a non-life threatening situation. None of us there that day did. We all hosed up and didn't have the gun out until the dude was long gone.
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| # ? Nov 05, 2009 13:51 |
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The Automator posted:I'm not even kidding about the jazz hands. My hands went straight up, palms out, and shook in front of my face. The instructor enjoyed referring to me as 'Sparkle Motion' the rest of the day.  Suprise works. Ambush works. Even in training where you KNOW the idea is that you'll be attacked and are expected to react to that attack, it's easy to catch someone off guard.
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| # ? Nov 05, 2009 14:10 |
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NosmoKing posted:
Definitely. Unfortunately, we 'good guys' don't get to use this to our advantage. We are almost always the ones on the wrong end of the surprise. That's why I feel it's important to train, train, and train some more to improve your chances of doing what you need to do in that moment of surprise.
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| # ? Nov 05, 2009 14:24 |
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