|
Because my body doesn't produce enough testosterone naturally, I am prescribed and inject testosterone twice a week along with human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG) to keep my nuts big and also to help preserve fertility. Barring technological advances or apocalypse, I will do this for the rest of my life. I'm a male in my mid 20's, which is a bit unusual since I have the blood work of an average 40 year old, which is closer to the age most people would be interested in this therapy. The therapy has truly transformed my life and improved every aspect of it, and I would be happy to answer any questions regarding it.
|
| # ? Nov 06, 2009 09:08 |
|
|
|
| # ? Nov 22, 2009 10:50 |
|
|
What has been the most significant change physically for you when you underwent this therapy? More muscle mass? Voice sudden got deeper? Have you or you friends noticed any personality changes at all since you started your therapy?
|
| # ? Nov 06, 2009 09:39 |
|
|
Zikan posted:What has been the most significant change physically for you when you underwent this therapy? More muscle mass? Voice sudden got deeper? The biggest physical change was going from having a semi-stiffy at best to having the refractory period and erection intensity of a teenager. Sex went from something to dread to fantastic. I've lost fat and gained some muscle, but it's still required hard work and dieting though it no longer feels like I'm banging my head against the wall trying to lose weight or lift it. No voice changes as far as anyone's commented and I haven't noticed anything. Personality wise has been a huge boost in confidence, performance, and display. When I had low test, I was nervous and irritable a lot of the time. Now, my default state is just simply feeling good. I have interest in life again.
|
| # ? Nov 06, 2009 09:48 |
|
|
Why doesn't your body produce enough testosterone? How did you notice something was wrong? Did it take a long time to get diagnosed?
|
| # ? Nov 06, 2009 09:54 |
|
|
Panne posted:Why doesn't your body produce enough testosterone? Officially, it's idiopathic testicular deficiency. My pituitary gland was telling them to pick up their game, but no go. My doctor has a theory that it was brought on by an Accutane cycle concurrent with the start of symptoms, but that's not backed up by anything in particular. Approximately a year ago, I started gaining weight for no reason, having moodswings and "emotional" moments, and I felt tired a lot of the time. My sex drive was in the gutter. A blood test revealed my total testosterone was very low, at only 100ng/ml, where the normal range for someone my age is 500-1000ng/ml. I should have started replacement therapy (TRT) immediately, but because I had a standard general practitioner at the time, he wasn't concerned and wanted to wait for more tests. Unfortunately, most doctors are woefully undereducated in this area with regard to the overall health and wellness of their patients. After another blood test revealed my total test was doing a bit better at 300ng/ml, the doctor wanted to call off the whole idea of replacement therapy, since 300 is within the range of 200-1000 that they use for all males. However, that is not the proper natural range for younger males and he was being stupid in the face of my symptoms. I finally managed to see this great doctor who was fully on board with TRT, and further blood tests showed elevated estrogen and very low free testosterone. Her goals are to get me into the upper range of natural levels, and I'm about to see her for my first 6 week followup visit and blood test where we'll adjust my dosage if needed. All told, 11 months from noticing symptoms to getting treatment. If doctors were better educated on this topic, it would have been zero months. I'd like the last year of my life back - it's that big a difference - but I'll settle for being able to continue as I am now. yatagan fucked around with this message at Nov 06, 2009 around 10:13 |
| # ? Nov 06, 2009 10:06 |
|
|
What do side effects look like? Any immediately, or potential long term?
|
| # ? Nov 07, 2009 18:05 |
|
|
WorldTravelerX posted:What do side effects look like? Likely infertility without fertility drugs, which in my case is only a bonus for now. The other negatives are sticking yourself with a needle a few times a week and the cost, which averages out to almost $250 a month between medications, supplies, blood tests, and doctor's fees if I didn't have insurance. Other than that, everything is very positive, with many health benefits, though there are concerns regarding increased risk of prostate cancer, no links have been found.
|
| # ? Nov 07, 2009 19:19 |
|
|
I actually know a guy who I served in the Marines with who had this. When he first joined he literally looked, sounded and acted like a 12 year old, despite being 18. (I first met him when he was a new Marine). We didn't think MUCH about it because 18 is still pretty young and not all young men are beefy or whatever. But I guess he went to the doctor for a checkup, they asked him how the gently caress he got into the Marine Corps because his body was, for all practical purposes, not producing any testosterone. (So you can see the psychology behind why he joined...) Anyway I went off to Iraq and when I came back this motherfucker has a square jaw, deep voice, thick loving eyebrows and had put on several pounds of muscle. Not to mention an improved sense of confidence. It was *insane*. Even more insane was that they let him stay in, I really didn't think he would, but I guess thinking about it, it doesn't reall ymatter. But it was hella weird how his jawline literally changed shape from a very delicate, feminine chin/jaw to almost poster child square jawed Marine. By all accounts though he had some pretty bizarre notions about sexuality and all that. Like he was pretty confused. Nice kid though, just kind of weird.
|
| # ? Nov 07, 2009 19:34 |
|
|
RobotEmpire posted:Anyway I went off to Iraq and when I came back this motherfucker has a square jaw, deep voice, thick loving eyebrows and had put on several pounds of muscle. Not to mention an improved sense of confidence. It was *insane*. Even more insane was that they let him stay in, I really didn't think he would, but I guess thinking about it, it doesn't reall ymatter. Basically, he went through a delayed puberty. I had the normal teenage experience so I won't get those effects is my understanding.
|
| # ? Nov 07, 2009 22:57 |
|
|
Are you able to administer yourself or do you need to go into the doctors office for your shot?
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 00:36 |
|
|
yatagan posted:Officially, it's idiopathic testicular deficiency. My pituitary gland was telling them to pick up their game, but no go. My doctor has a theory that it was brought on by an Accutane cycle concurrent with the start of symptoms, but that's not backed up by anything in particular. OOOOOH MY GOD is this why i feel so loving empty inside
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 00:45 |
|
|
Are you taking advantage of your legal insured steroids by hitting the gym a ton and eating a lot? edit: also is medical HRT similar to "steroids" in that you do a multi-week "cycle" of testosterone and then post-cycle therapy or is your dosage consistent?
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 01:07 |
|
|
Straithate posted:Are you able to administer yourself or do you need to go into the doctors office for your shot? Self administer. A trained monkey can almost administer one, it takes like 2 minutes to learn the spots you can do it, how to aspirate to make sure you don't inject into a vein, and sanitary procedure. artard posted:Are you taking advantage of your legal insured steroids by hitting the gym a ton and eating a lot? Hitting the gym, yes. I'm trying to lose like 15 pounds though, so I'm not eating a lot. Medical HRT is every single week forever. Dosage is worked out and then kept there, because it's not hard on your body like dosages much higher than natural production.
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 01:20 |
|
|
Make a log thread in W&W you will be the envy of all posters
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 01:22 |
|
|
Have you investigated using time-release patches rather than injections, or is it impossible to get the proper mix of hormones that way?
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 02:22 |
|
|
Do you have insurance? How much does it cost with or without
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 03:27 |
|
|
yatagan posted:Self administer. A trained monkey can almost administer one, it takes like 2 minutes to learn the spots you can do it, how to aspirate to make sure you don't inject into a vein, and sanitary procedure. I self-inject testosterone (for the same reason as you) once a week, and I alternate thighs. Only once did I hit a vein, and that was my own fault.
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 03:45 |
|
|
SirCantaloupe posted:Have you investigated using time-release patches rather than injections, or is it impossible to get the proper mix of hormones that way? I don't want to mess with patches. I'd honestly rather inject every 3-4 days than do something daily. There's a gel you can rub on yourself, and under the skin pellets that last a long rear end time. I can get away with combining my two weekly doses into one weekly dose too, or even every 2 weeks, but then things get a little funky with the blood levels. I've heard about some extremely stupid doctors that inject every three weeks. In the end, it doesn't matter all that much, blood levels don't have an immediate effect. It's kind of weird, it takes a while to feel like crap without testosterone and it takes a while to feel better when you start up again. wigtrade.cc posted:Do you have insurance? $250 a month all told without, but I'm on an expensive program that lets me take control of a lot more than traditional therapy allows. I more or less get to pick my method of administration, my supporting ancillaries, and I only see the doctor once a year after my dosage is worked out. I might get things down to around $150 a month if I lower the dosage a bit and see a different doctor that takes more control of the dosage. It's stupid, but so is most of the medical system in the US. However I do have insurance, so it's more like $80 a month after I hit my deductible, and $200 before. An unfortunate drain on my finances.
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 04:31 |
|
|
artard posted:Are you taking advantage of your legal insured steroids by hitting the gym a ton and eating a lot?
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 04:44 |
|
|
So if you hit a vein do you turn into the hulk?
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 05:04 |
|
|
Is there an increase of acne considering you already went through with accutane?
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 05:25 |
|
|
wigtrade.cc posted:OOOOOH MY GOD is this why i feel so loving empty inside Also one of Accutane's possible side effects is depression. Are you still on it? wigtrade.cc posted:Is there an increase of acne considering you already went through with accutane? 
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 05:40 |
|
|
Lexical Unit posted:Don't you have to get regular blood work while on Accutane (I do)? I guess maybe they're not doing the kinds of tests that would reveal a T-deficinecy maybe? I'm on my 4th months supply my doctor said he's prescribed the stuff to depressed people with no fear because he believes the depression stems from their skin being so messed up. Some blog article about accutane and testosterone Don't take this as fact but i found this one comment hillarious "It is absolutely true. I can not believe this is not mentioned in any of the literature about accutane. I took accutane when I was 16 to get rid of my acne. It worked like a charm. I am 22 now and have had no further acne problems. However, I have always known that the drug had to have some effect on my testosterone level. My entire personality changed. I used to be very aggressive. Although I never played any sports for the school, I would always get the football in games in PE because I was virtually impossible to tackle. I could carry 3 or 4 guys on my back without going down. Also, I was one of the bigger guys in my class at the age of 16. I completely stopped growing after taking accutane. All of my classmates grew, while I only got smaller. Even my political views switched from conservative to extremely liberal, as someone reported earlier. These are, by far, the most bizarre side effects of accutane, completely eclipsing the dry skin and chapped lips, and yet I never heard a THING about it. I'm quite angry about this. Even today, no official reports that I have seen include low test as a side effect. This is something that people need to know about. It is NOT worth it. Give me my testosterone back... acne and all, I don't care. And it has been 6 years since I took it, and the effects have not waned. I have great trouble gaining weight, and the delicate features of my face, that others have described, are still there. I have a question about the test boosters- will they still work at my age? After going this long with depleted testosterone levels, do I have any hope of restoring myself back to normal? Accutane got rid of my acne alright, but I would NOT recommend it to any men- especially if they have not reached full adulthood." Accutane made him a liberal, acne is a leftist plot to corrupt the youth wigtrade.cc fucked around with this message at Nov 08, 2009 around 06:17 |
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 05:57 |
|
|
Yeah I'm not throughly convinced myself that Accutane causes depression, but it certainly does tend to coincide with it quite a bit. It's worth considering at least. You know, I've never asked my doctor what all they check with blood work so I don't know if testosterone level is something they check or not. As an aside, after 5 months and 2 weeks on Accutane I'm totally acne free now, gently caress yeah!  It sure would be... weird... though, if it also meant I got testosterone-deficency. I doubt that has happened in my case.wigtrade.cc posted:Accutane made him a liberal, acne is a leftist plot to corrupt the youth  I mean, yeah I was before Accutane as well, but still, what an amazing coincidence, right!Lexical Unit fucked around with this message at Nov 08, 2009 around 14:02 |
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 06:17 |
|
|
yatagan posted:All told, 11 months from noticing symptoms to getting treatment. If doctors were better educated on this topic, it would have been zero months. I'd like the last year of my life back - it's that big a difference - but I'll settle for being able to continue as I am now. Any doctor who initiated lifelong therapy based on a single slightly abnormal blood test would rightly be regarded as a quack.
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 06:41 |
|
|
Basho posted:Any doctor who initiated lifelong therapy based on a single slightly abnormal blood test would rightly be regarded as a quack. Or an endocrinologist with some loving sense in his head. Either one. How in Christ's name is "100ng/ml, where the normal range for someone my age is 500-1000ng/ml" simply abnormal? Explain yourself.
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 08:10 |
|
|
Thanks for this thread. I'm in the same boat as you - I've been taking testosterone in various forms since I was 19 - I am 22 now. I've done Androgel 5gr and 10gr, Androderm 5gr, and testosterone cypionate 100 mg a week self administered in the leg. There are many pros and cons to each treatment, although I keep going back to the cypionate because it simply works the best, although it does not achieve a steady blood plasma rate - you feel normal some days and subnormal others, it's better than the androgel/androderm which makes you feel barely normal albeit on a stable basis. Some of the side effects, in my experience: face changes - jaw is more defined, increased hunger, lots of energy on a good day but no energy right before the weekly dose, some mood swings that can be bad sometimes, increased sweat but I live in Florida, increased muscle mass - I was never able to bench my weight even once, and as I have been lifting for at least 3 years before the treatment, this was a big hurdle that I can now do almost 10 reps my bodyweight on flat BB bench press. But the negative side effects are definitly worth it - TRT allows me to function with normal energy levels, get out of bed, have a libido, and not be clinically depressed, among other positives. My initial test results showed 248 ng/dl (now with treatment they range from 400-600), and I couldn't (and still don't)understand why I had low testosterone - I developed puberty normally and started feeling low T symptoms at age 18. It took alot of tests to figure out what was causing my fatigue, low libido, etc until the testosterone test. So if there are any of you guys out there that have any symptoms of Hypogonadism, the official term, please do yourself a favor and get your testosterone levels checked. You haven't got much to lose besides the cost of the blood work. Questions to the OP: Can you explain a bit about your experience with human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG)? Does it have any effect to someone with HRT besides fertility and testicle size? Did your endocrinologist initiate this, or did you ask about it? Also, when you get your blood work, do you get tested for estrogen levels? I always have this feeling, although I show no symptoms, of too much estrogen. adam jay harris fucked around with this message at Nov 08, 2009 around 20:16 |
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 20:02 |
|
|
Shinryu posted:Or an endocrinologist with some loving sense in his head. Either one. Testosterone levels fluctuate all the time due to things like the time of the day and situational stress. The OP even admits that a followup test fell within the reference range (which does not begin at 500ng/dl) and 3x that of his initial test. There have been tons of studies done on variances in testosterone levels, but a more recent one highlighted in the popular media would be: http://airamerica.com/really/10-22-...sterone-levels/ At one time or another I would imagine just about every man feels like they are too fat, not good enough at sex, or not getting enough accomplished during the day. These are complaints that a doctor would receive in the absence of any medical problem. Infertility would not be considered a "minor" side effect for many people. In addition, poor injection practices can lead to things like nerve damage and abscesses (which can require hospitalization and surgical intervention). This is not to say I oppose the OP engaging in this therapy, even if his benefit is only placebo. He and everyone else has a right to administer substances into their own body. But I think it is irresponsible of him to promote it to others in the absence of strong scientific evidence and criticize prudent medical professionals for their caution. Basho fucked around with this message at Nov 08, 2009 around 20:24 |
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 20:04 |
|
|
adam jay harris posted:Questions to the OP: Can you explain a bit about your experience with human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG)? Does it have any effect to someone with HRT besides fertility and testicle size? Did your endocrinologist initiate this, or did you ask about it? Also, when you get your blood work, do you get tested for estrogen levels? I always have this feeling, although I show no symptoms, of too much estrogen. I would personally highly recommend HCG. I have no knowledge about the fertility aspects (thank loving GOD!) but in terms of testicular size it's a big help. I didn't start using it for a while after I started TRT and by the time I started my balls and scrotum were both extremely small, it looked pre-pubescent and I hated it. It's still not quite where it used to be (I used to have some pretty big balls, honestly) but it's basically at a normal level now. I inject 150 IU every morning of HCG, my doctor says it's a lot better to do it daily.
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 21:01 |
|
|
Willy Lee posted:So if you hit a vein do you turn into the hulk? To be honest, I'm not entirely sure why this is bad, I just know to check for it and not do the injection if I do hit one (which hasn't happened yet). wigtrade.cc posted:Is there an increase of acne considering you already went through with accutane? adam jay harris posted:Questions to the OP: Can you explain a bit about your experience with human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG)? Does it have any effect to someone with HRT besides fertility and testicle size? Did your endocrinologist initiate this, or did you ask about it? Also, when you get your blood work, do you get tested for estrogen levels? I always have this feeling, although I show no symptoms, of too much estrogen. It apparently helps with fat loss too, it's hard to differentiate the effects of the medications, so I suppose some of what I've noticed could be attributed to the HCG instead of testosterone. I'm on a comprehensive program, basically I go to a testosterone replacement specialist group with a network of doctors, so I was lined up with testosterone, HCG, and arimidex to control estrogen. Basho posted:Testosterone levels fluctuate all the time due to things like the time of the day and situational stress. The OP even admits that a followup test fell within the reference range (which does not begin at 500ng/dl) and 3x that of his initial test. quote:This is not to say I oppose the OP engaging in this therapy, even if his benefit is only placebo. He and everyone else has a right to administer substances into their own body. But I think it is irresponsible of him to promote it to others in the absence of strong scientific evidence and criticize prudent medical professionals for their caution.
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 21:08 |
|
|
yatagan posted:If this is placebo, I must be insane. Tens of thousands of people don't turn to this each year because they like spending money. not to try and knock your therapy but that's how placebos work
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 21:16 |
|
|
wigtrade.cc posted:not to try and knock your therapy but that's how placebos work I'm with you conceptually here, but you know how when you get drunk or something, it's just really obvious that something's happened? It's like that.
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 21:18 |
|
|
I've been going to the gym for 2 years now and not really gotten anywhere. I bench 95 pounds and squat like 130 on a good day. I've had a personal trainer look at everything I'm doing, eating, etc and saying I should be seeing results. I've have no endurance. I'm pretty much always in a crappy mood. I've taken accutane before and it hosed me up pretty badly with suicidal thoughts and all that nice stuff. Sex drive is pretty much nil too. I can't remember the last time I had morning wood or a decent stiffy. I've been trying to convince my doctor whenever I see him to check my testosterone levels (should be fairly easy to do, right?) but he's been fairly reluctant to do so. Instead he's told me to take creatine  Part of me thinks this isn't worth worrying about, but the other part of me wants to pursue it. Suggestions?
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 21:47 |
|
|
Goon Matchmaker posted:I've been going to the gym for 2 years now and not really gotten anywhere. I bench 95 pounds and squat like 130 on a good day. I've had a personal trainer look at everything I'm doing, eating, etc and saying I should be seeing results. I've have no endurance. I'm pretty much always in a crappy mood. I've taken accutane before and it hosed me up pretty badly with suicidal thoughts and all that nice stuff. Sex drive is pretty much nil too. I can't remember the last time I had morning wood or a decent stiffy. I've been trying to convince my doctor whenever I see him to check my testosterone levels (should be fairly easy to do, right?) but he's been fairly reluctant to do so. Instead he's told me to take creatine Yes, definitely get checked out. Go get the following blood work: Total testosterone Free testosterone Estradiol (or estrogen panel) DHEA-S Prolactin Cortisol LH If you are having a hard time losing fat too, get Free T3 and Free T4 (TSH if you feel like it). That will give you an entire blood panel on which to base decisions. If you're borderline, like 400, retest in two weeks. This is unfortunately expensive without insurance, a good $200-300 for the blood work.
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 21:53 |
|
|
yatagan posted:Yes, definitely get checked out. Go get the following blood work: Yeah I am having a hard time losing fat too. What do I tell them when scheduling the appointment?
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 21:55 |
|
|
Goon Matchmaker posted:I've been going to the gym for 2 years now and not really gotten anywhere. I bench 95 pounds and squat like 130 on a good day. I've had a personal trainer look at everything I'm doing, eating, etc and saying I should be seeing results. I've have no endurance. I'm pretty much always in a crappy mood. I've taken accutane before and it hosed me up pretty badly with suicidal thoughts and all that nice stuff. Sex drive is pretty much nil too. I can't remember the last time I had morning wood or a decent stiffy. I've been trying to convince my doctor whenever I see him to check my testosterone levels (should be fairly easy to do, right?) but he's been fairly reluctant to do so. Instead he's told me to take creatine Get another doctor? My dermatologist was so persistent in not giving me accutane until she left on maternity leave the other doctor just said screw it lets do it. dude this is so loving weird that this thread came up since my drive is just out of the window I'll go soft even when putting the condom on hopefully this is the answer. I'm going to ask my doc about it tomorrow I'm skipping breakfast to see if they can do the blood work same day i'll put up a scan of the bloodwork they have you get done for accutane.
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 21:56 |
|
|
yatagan posted:If this is placebo, I must be insane. Tens of thousands of people don't turn to this each year because they like spending money. Common Spine Surgery Shows No Benefit.
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 22:21 |
|
|
 Click here for the full 1000x1531 image. Here is the order you give to a lab giving you bloodwork for accutane
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 22:30 |
|
|
Basho posted:This is not to say I oppose the OP engaging in this therapy, even if his benefit is only placebo. He and everyone else has a right to administer substances into their own body. But I think it is irresponsible of him to promote it to others in the absence of strong scientific evidence and criticize prudent medical professionals for their caution. Obama was born in Kenya, herbs cure everything, Scientology is a legitimate religion, exhalation negatively effects the hole in the ozone layer, modern medicine is all a farce, doctors are paid by the government to kill people with toxic chemicals that don't have any scientific benefit, Tom Cruise knows his poo poo, and Santa Claus was real, but Osama bin Laden had him snuffed to that children all over the world would know his pain. I'll be sure to tell my endocrinologist that some mouth breather on the internet thinks that treating testosterone deficiency is quackery. A guy with an IQ below 7 knows better than someone who not only attended college, but graduated! Is providing hormone replacement to women who've had hysterectomies improper procedure, too, Dr. Basho? We'd all love to see the Certificate of Completion from your slow classes, or the letter of recommendation from the local community college that you needed to get a job at McDonald's. These are the credentials of a REAL medical marvel.
|
| # ? Nov 08, 2009 23:26 |
|
|
Shinryu posted:Obama was born in Kenya, herbs cure everything, Scientology is a legitimate religion, exhalation negatively effects the hole in the ozone layer, modern medicine is all a farce, doctors are paid by the government to kill people with toxic chemicals that don't have any scientific benefit, Tom Cruise knows his poo poo, and Santa Claus was real, but Osama bin Laden had him snuffed to that children all over the world would know his pain. Basho posted:Any doctor who initiated lifelong therapy based on a single slightly abnormal blood test would rightly be regarded as a quack. That's all I said. Don't try to misconstrue my position. In my followup post I elaborated on reasons why one low blood test is not conclusive proof of a deficiency requiring lifelong administration of exogenous hormones and I highlighted that the treatment comes with innate risks. Basho fucked around with this message at Nov 09, 2009 around 00:11 |
| # ? Nov 09, 2009 00:04 |
|
Rate Thread:
